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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Lots of updates coming here, but first I need to finish the musings in my personal blog.

For now, the TL;DR version is that I`m looking at a Star Dragon list again. The explosion of HE cavbusses at the ETC means that come November, everyone will know how it plays. I heavily believe in a curveball list, playing against something you don`t understand is an inherent disadvantage.

List draft:

Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
2 Eagles = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398

Lots of redirectors and I ditched the common stubborn crown in favour of more offensive power. With 5 chaff units I`m hoping to avoid impossible combats. Originally I designed the list with 3x1 Eagles, but we can no longer have more than 2, unless grouped together (which I believe is a bad idea. I might revisit the idea of 2 + 1). The Nobles` Dragon Armour is also something that`s up for evaluation, I could get Luckstone + Ironcurse Icon in place of them for example.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Tournament was a couple of days ago now. I played against 2x HE, DoC, EMP and Chaos Dwarfs. I ended with 58 BP, which I find good for a defensive army. I won the games against HE and EMP, draw against CD and lost 15-5 to DoC. Apart from the DoC game, the other games saw me lose a grand total of 1 gyro, 2 cannons and a grudge thrower! In the DoC game I had some really bad target priority and wasted my lords potential a bit. Anyway, this really reflects what this army should do in a 20-0 tournament, hang back and go for 10ish points. People are hesitant to advance against them and will play it safe :)

I also had 2 shootings phases in a row that show variance in this armies output. T1 against HE I did 1 wound to a RBT, my enemy finds this not the least scary and commits his units. T2 I kill a frostheart, 2 RBTS, wipe a unit of sisters, panic 15 archers off the bord and take off 12 Phoenix guard with BOWTD and shield of saphry up. :shock:

Learning points are learning whether / when to deploy Irondrakes or Longbeards on the flank and keeping my Lord where I need him.

TL;DR I like my army list for it's intended role


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:52 am 
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Indian Summer Summary
I played
#1 OnG 8-12
Slow start. I played vs an agressive OnG army With wyvern-general and lots of trolls. Things started out really well With me killing quite a few of his units. It went really downhill when one ironblaster who had lined up the wyven, exploded spectaculary and killed a lot of ogres in the process. This was exasberated with me choosing to multicharge a large unit of goblins to kill the lvl 4, while ignoring the Savage orcs and wyvern on the flanks. I failed to break steadfast, got countercharged and lost both maneaters and gutstar. A safer solution would be to kill Savage orcs one-on-one with gutstar, then go for the goblins. In addition I allocated a few too many attacks onto the multiple goblin heroes in the front, instead for killing as many rank and file as possible, thus breaking steadfast (quite possible, there was Three too many).
In short, I played badly and had a bit of bad Luck on top.
Still a +2 matchup.

#2 DoC 0-20
Ouch. Well-played and very agressive Nurgle daemons simply ran through my army. The dice gods were on the side of the daemon player who played the better game as well.
First off, I chose the wrong side to deply. Choosing to deploy behind a lake, which ended up hindering me more than my non-ranked, flying opponent. Instead I should have stuck behind a hill on the other side, which would have shielded my ironblasters in the first turn. I then deployed my units a bit to far up, to be able to shoot first turn. In addition I moved my maneaters forward to defend leadbelchers from rot flies. This was a bad mistake, as the DoC player poured all units into the ME and annihilated them. Next time, deploy on the baseline and stay there. His skullcannon one-shotted one of my ironblasters turn one, which didn't help, but that wouldn't have happened if I've deployed better.
Probably a -1 matchup, will have to play more.

#3 DE 20-0
Shooty, flying elves. Very Dangerous army, but my opponent hadn't touched dice in a years time.I charged and chopped through everything.
Matchup: -2 with lots of "unkillable" peg riders.

#4 HE 20-0
Two cav-star HE. Unfortunately for him, neither unit was capable of breaking ogre Blocks. Gutstar and maneaters both took one unit on the chin and proceeded to demolish them, while my shooting destroyed the rest of his army.
Matchup: +1 for cavstars

#5 EM 20-0
Steamtank, Demigryphs, halberdiers, light Council.
My opponent probably had the shooting advantage but chose to advance. Ironguts and maneaters charged through pretty much his Whole army, while ironblasters destroyed the steamtank completely.
Matchup: 0.

Thoughts
-Find room for lookout gnoblar. Didn't matter now, but might vs Dwarfs.
-Play properly defensive versus very agressive armies, i.e. DoC, WoC. My army is very capable both defensive and offensive, the trick is knowing when to do what.
-Play more games ahead of, and just before next tournament. I was out of form simply, not having played an ETC game since SM in may.
-Plan deployment ahead on the different ETC maps.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:22 pm 
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My experience: Well I ended up taking a non-relevant list, but I learned a lot about the meta and have firmly decided it will be a Star Dragon list for the team tournament. I think a Star Dragon can cause significant havoc in the current meta and it really fits my playstyle as well.

Overall we seem to have a problem with DoC and I`m not quite sure what we can do about Empire. The rest I think we can handle. I have however learned that knowledge of the ETC maps can affect the matchups greatly: some matches really allows a Star Dragon to punish corner-armies, hard.

Strange and rusty have summarized their experiences above and I believe Dark Reaper`s concluded that the overall focus of the army is good, but might require a minor tweak to accomodate his playstyle.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:12 pm 
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With the ETC over for this year we have a better grasp of the current metagame. Long story short, it wasn`t far from what we have already done pairing training with, but of course there were some curveballs. Anywho, onto our next pairing session:

We had: SDHE, shooty OK, DW, DE. They had: Swedish WE, VC, DoC, SK.
SK - HE out. DW DE, DoC WE received as counters. Ended up with:

HE - DoC
OK - WE
DW - SK
DE - VC

We had same. They had: WoC, SK, DE, LZ.
DE - DE out. HE DW, WoC LZ received as counters. Ended up with:

DE - WoC
OK - LZ
HE - SK
DW - DE

We had same. They had: CD, HE, VC, OK
HE - HE out. OK DE, CD OK received as counters. Ended up with:

HE - OK
DW - CD
OK - HE
DE - VC

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:23 am 
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More pairing. We had: SDHE, Shooty OK, DW, DE. They had: TK, Lifebus + WL HE, DE, Light-council EMP. HE - TK out, HE - EMP, DW - OK received as counters. Ended up with:

HE - HE
DE - EMP
DW - DE
OK - TK

HE mirror +2. Star Dragon is so hard to cope with. DE - EMP +1. DE are fast and have too many threats for Empire to deal with effectively. DW - DE -1. Same as DE - EMP, in a nutshell. OK - TK -1. TK has strong magic and shooting. Dobbel IB + Posion Maneaters can be dangerous though, but in the end the magical assault of TK is what makes this so hard for OK.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secret Journey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Time to update!

Matchup evaluations for Star Dragon HE wrote:
Code:
Score from -2 => 2: -2 expects to lose big. +2 expects to lose big. Volatility Low, Medium, High. If a matchup goes poorly, how bad can it get? Likewise, if it goes well, how well it can go? Confidence - Low, Medium, High: how sure are we that this evaluation is correct.

Fraction - Score - Volatility - Confidence
BM          +?         H            L
BR          +?         H            L
CD          +?         H            L
DoC         +?         H            L
DE          +?         M            L
DW          +0         L            H
EMP         -1         M            M
HE          +2         L            M
LZ          +?         L            L
OK          +?         H            L
OnG         +?         M            L
SK          +?         H            L
TK          -1         M            M
VC          +?         L            L
WoC         +?         M            L
WE          +?         M            L


I`ve basically set +? with confidence L for every army I haven`t faced with the current incarnation of the SD list. An exception is HE, whom I feel I know well enough to say that this is a very favourable matchup for me. Maybe it`s nasty with Death but without, it should be a solid win for the Star Dragon

I`m hoping I`ll play most/all of these matchups prior to the tournament, preferably in hands of capable players.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secret Journey
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:27 pm 
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OK set to 0 (slightly towards +1 but 0 is safer).

Matchup evaluations for Star Dragon HE wrote:
Code:
Score from -2 => 2: -2 expects to lose big. +2 expects to lose big. Volatility Low, Medium, High. If a matchup goes poorly, how bad can it get? Likewise, if it goes well, how well it can go? Confidence - Low, Medium, High: how sure are we that this evaluation is correct.

Fraction - Score - Volatility - Confidence
BM          +?         H            L
BR          +?         H            L
CD          +?         H            L
DoC         +?         H            L
DE          +?         M            L
DW          +0         L            H
EMP         -1         M            M
HE          +2         L            M
LZ          +?         L            L
OK          +0         M            H
OnG         +?         M            L
SK          +?         H            L
TK          -1         M            M
VC          +?         L            L
WoC         +?         M            L
WE          +?         M            L

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:06 am 
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Most of our preparations have taken place in other channels seeing as we found updating a blog tedious given the frequency with which we adjusted lists, pairings etc.

Anyway as BSK is now coming closer it`s time to start finalizing our lists, which I will post throughout the day. Thoughts on pairings etc will probably remain secret until the tournament is over, after which I`m hoping to make a proper update to finish this blog.

First list up: Dwarfs
Quote:
Dwarf Lord, general, Shieldbearers, shield, Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might - 313

Runesmith, shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking - 113
Runesmith, shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking - 138
Thane, BSB, shield, Master Rune of Groth One-Eye - 168

25 Longbeards, FCG, Shields, Great Weapons, 3x Rune of Sanctuary - 450
10 Quarrelers, veteran, great weapons - 150

Cannon, Rune of Forging - 145
Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning - 150
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy - 130
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating - 170
Gyrocopter - 80
Gyrocopter - 80

20 Irondrakes, musician - 310

Totalt: 2397

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:48 am 
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Next list is ready:

Quote:
Daemons of Chaos

Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 2, metal. General. 125
Herald of Tzeentch, lvl 2, metal. 125

10 Horrors, musician - 140
10 Horrors - 130
10 Horrors - 130
10 Horrors - 130
10 Horrors - 130

4 Beasts of Nurgle - 240
1 Beast of Nurgle - 60
1 Beast of Nurgle - 60
5 Furies - 60
5 Furies - 60
2 Nurglings - 80
5 Flesh Hounds, ambush - 165
5 Flesh Hounds, ambush - 165

4 Plague Drones, champion, standard, gleaming pendant, plague proboscis - 265
3 Plague Drones, champion, standard, plague proboscis - 200
Skullcannon - 135

Total: 2400

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Dark Elves ready:

Quote:
Dreadlord on Dark Steed: General, Repeater Crossbow , Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Giant Blade, Dawn Stone, The Other Tricksters Shard, 282
Supreme Sorceress: Level 4, Lore of Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek, Ironcurse Icon 300
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Cloak of Twilight, 188
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Battle Standard bearer, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, 211
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Armour of Destiny, 184

5 Dark Riders: Rptr Crossbow, Shields, 100
10 Dark Riders: Rptr Crossbow, Shields, 200
24 Darkshards: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 328

5 Harpies: 75
4x 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower: 4x 70

2x 5 Doomfire Warlocks: 2x 125

Army total: 2398

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Last but not least, High Elves:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Ironcurse Icon = 135
Heroes = 596, Characters = 1194

17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Champion = 95
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, Musician = 135
Core = 651

3x1 Repeater Bolt Thrower = 210
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
2x1 Great Eagle = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2395

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:08 pm 
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All the lists, properly formatted:

Quote:
Daemons of Chaos (rusty)

Herald of Tzeentch: Level 2, Lore of Metal, General, 125
Herald of Tzeentch: Level 2, Lore of Metal, 125

10 Horrors: Musician, 140
4x 10 Horrors: 4x 130

4 Beasts of Nurgle: 240
2x 1 Beast of Nurgle: 2x 60
2x 5 Furies: 2x 60
2 Nurglings: 80
2x 5 Flesh Hounds: Ambush, 2x 165

4 Plague Drones: Champion, Standard Bearer, Gleaming Pennant, Plague Proboscis, 265
3 Plague Drones: Champion, Standard Bearer, Plague Proboscis, 200
Skullcannon: 135

Army Total: 2400


Quote:
Dwarfs (strange)

Dwarf Lord: General, Shieldbearers, Shield, Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might, 313

Runesmith: Shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking, 113
Runesmith: Shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking, 138
Thane: Battle Standard Bearer, Shield, Master Rune of Groth One-Eye, 168

25 Longbeards: FCG, Shields, Great Weapons, 3x Rune of Sanctuary, 450
10 Quarrelers: Veteran, Great Weapons, 150

Cannon: Rune of Forging, 145
Cannon: Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning, 150
Grudge Thrower: Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, 130
Grudge Thrower: Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating, 170
2x 1 Gyrocopter: 2x 80

20 Irondrakes: Musician, 310

Army Total: 2397


Quote:
Dark Elves (Dark Reaper)

Dreadlord on Dark Steed: General, Repeater Crossbow , Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Giant Blade, Dawn Stone, The Other Trickster`s Shard, 282
Supreme Sorceress: Level 4, Lore of Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek, Ironcurse Icon, 300
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Cloak of Twilight, 188
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Battle Standard Bearer, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, 211
Master on Dark Pegasus: Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Armour of Destiny, 184

5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbows, Shields, 100
10 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbows, Shields, 200
24 Darkshards: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 328

5 Harpies: 75
4x 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower: 4x 70

2x 5 Doomfire Warlocks: 2x 125

Army total: 2398


Quote:
High Elves (Olannon)

Prince on Star Dragon: General, Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield, 598
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, 172
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade, 134
Mage on Elven Steed: Level 2, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, 155
Mage on Elven Steed: Level 2, Lore of High Magic, Ironcurse Icon, 135

17 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Champion, Bows (Swap), 95
5 Silver Helms: Champion, Musician, Shields, 135

3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 3x 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240
2x 1 Great Eagle: 2x 50

Army Total = 2395

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:15 pm 
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It just struck me as hilarious that Warlocks are actually cheap enough to redirect with if you're desperate! What's the thinking behind having the Sorceress bunkered in the Darkshards rather than mobile? How does the Dreadlord work, as lacking a Ward he looks a little vulnerable to snipes?

Slightly OT, we all know the efficacy of the multiple Peg riders. But just why is the HE equivalent so much worse? Is it the difference between 1+ AS and 2+ or between M8 and M2?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Warlocks are ridiculously good as redirectors, in fact. At SM, in my 5th game Kaj blocked my Lions with such a unit. I ran some quick numbers and estimated (confirmed after the game) that on average they kill a Lion per model. Even if they go down, it`s a big blow that could mean that I won`t have said Lions intact at the end.

Sorceress not being mobile is about where she can go. The big Darkshards are fairly safe since there are so many other threats. Furthermore she`s comped out of mobility, we`d have to sacrifice something else. This is a very standard DE list which I`ve played many, many times now (with various configurations of HE), and its strength lies in its adaptability: It can play anything from super defensive to very pushy.

The Dreadlord usually goes with big DRs which act as his launching pad. With Murderous Prowess and TOTS he`ll even beat chaos lords with 3++ on average, even before factoring in the mandatory Soulblight which Dark Elves with dual-Warlocks can almost always land. If Death is an issue, he can go with Darkshards. At BSK, only one faction per team can take Death, so we don`t expect this to be a big issue.

High Elf Great Eagle Riders ironically do not boil down to equipment. Not so much, anyway. While DE are more durable, we have some configurations that could make ours very useful as well: Charmed Shield + Golden Crown makes for an excellent WM-hunter for example whereas Star Lance + Potion of Foolhardiness achieves something DE can never hope for. What it boils down to is mainly 2 things: Warlocks and shooting. Dark Elves free up points from the hero section by not having to take a backup mage and they have the shooting to allow the Pegs to play very flexibly. I don`t see how we can do the same. If we try and mimic this particular list, we end up with 5+5+5 Reavers, Archers for a bunker, L4 Death Archmage with MR3 + scroll, 4 RBTs and then what? We can take the Cavprince, but he`s not fastcav so his bunker will be way inferior to the DE bunker, to the point where he can`t really feel safe. Furthermore we can`t give him 1+ re-roll and TOTS alongside S7 and he doesn`t have murderous prowess so his ability to operate alone is severely reduced. Furthermore Archers are no-where near RXBs and MR3 is no-where near Hotek. Overall then we simply cannot do the same, just as Dark Elves cannot take durable, heavy cavalry core units (though a big unit of DR is quite effective as a deathstar-bunker they can`t run the cheap version with just a cavprince + BSB for example).

The question thus becomes whether they could serve in a different setting. With our last book I always ran at least one of them with the Dragonlord and would`ve taken more towards the end (but I never playtested this) to adapt to the meta, but the old lore of high magic + annulian was a lot better suited for running a solo wizard, freeing up the points for this configuration. With the current book however I think you have to take 2 wizards alongside the Star Dragon. You`ll probably want these mounted and one of them needs a scroll, so from the get-go we`re looking at a 285-point investment in magic. Adding the mandatory BSB with BOTWD brings this to a level where there`s simply not enough points left for our Eagle guy. Sure you could cope with a single mage, taking Ring of Fury to at least get a third spell, but you`re left with magic that`s not very flexible, a bus that has neither stubborn nor enough characters to protect its cargo and all you gained is "just" an Eagle Noble.

Under certain comp systems there might be incentives for thinking about this differently. Take Giant Fanatic for example: You could argue that a viable approach here is to have a Noble BSB on foot with 2 foot high mages, carrying a scroll and a merwyrm shield in total means this combination weighs in at just 375 points, actually leaving a whole lot to kit our Eagle Rider with. In this scenario I think the Eagle Noble can be very valuable, but unless the comp system is this kind of heavy, I just see way too many advantages with other configurations to justify his inclusion.

Possibly a cheap WM-hunter could be a useful addition to more traditional lists, but whenever I make these lists I usually find that the points are better spent elsewhere. Incidentally, Dark Elves aren`t too fond of their peg-Masters either when making Witchelf lists, for example ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:59 pm 
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I've seen guys run Sisters of the Thorn in the same 5-strong units Curu. You get a fair bit for your 130pts. Not as good as Warlocks of course but then, what is? I'd not realised about the ETC-style Death cap re the Dreadlord.

I suggested the Charmed Shield/Golden Crown guy to Seredain recently in place of the horsed version he's currently running. I keep looking at a WE version but the armour limitations are a problem. Not to mention your point about always needing other stuff more.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Sisters most certainly have their uses as well, but their role is deceptively different to Warlocks: The former are all about creating a safe haven and harassing the enemy whereas the latter are designed to operate alone - and win - against nearly everything, with a ton of built-in flexibility.

The problem with taking a Noble on an Elven Steed and putting him on an Eagle in a cavbus list is also that said Noble probably blocked out an important element in the bus, or at least he had the option to do so. If he for any reason did not perform this task however then I can see the argument being made for at least trying him out. I don`t have enough experience with these lists though, I spent forever trying to make WL + PG + Cavbus work so I need more practice with PG + cav to see if I have faith in such a configuration. Against Lizardmen, Elves and Empire I can definitely see this guy being a total pain, but the question is how he`ll perform vs stuff like DoC, DW, SK etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:04 pm 
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No Wolfen.

:(

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:13 am 
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We tried making the Ogres work, but the TL;DR version is that a combination of vulnerability to death, leadership and a steep learning curve combined with little time to practice, meant that we thought it would be better for rusty to play DoC. The shooty OK list was revealed to be too vulnerable in the current meta so the option was to go for something else, e.g. gutstar + maneaters + mournfang with L4 and a single cannon. While this can certainly work, we thought it would be safer to go down the DoC route.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:01 am 
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Presumably you believe MSU Daemons have fewer bad match-ups Curu? Does Rusty have much experience with them? Is this an army you can put out to have a decent shot against most enemies?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:07 am 
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MSU DoC have very few matchups they lose horribly. This is a mix of many things, but mainly it boils down to their multiple drops (allowing them to put their important units in corners), multiple threats (beasts for locking stuff down, flies and hounds for counter-pushes, tzeentch magic for harassment and big missiles, metal vs big units, deathstars and armour, skullcannon vs big things) and army-wide ITP, meaning General/BSB bubble is a non-existant issue.

Rusty has played Daemons more than he has OK I believe, though in a different manner. I think it`s an army that suits the team tournament aspect very well. Lots of armies don`t want to face them at all, other armies might want to but are unlikely to decimate them.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:13 am 
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Plus in the DE's and Dwarfs you also have armies that are unlikely to lose big I guess Curu? Whereas the Star Dragon might but is also better at bringing home the big wins in several match-ups?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:56 am 
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Dwarfs is mostly something we have because of how they affect the pairing. How do you handle 2 cannons, 2 GTs and a T10 W5 1+ stubborn lord? It`s a solid, durable list with enough firepower to win almost any ranged fight. Practicing with TK would have taken more time than Strange had available and this is a list he is comfortable with. It takes a lot for it to lose big, but obviously a big, Purple Sun can always ruin a Dwarf player`s day.

DE are super flexible. They have like 2 or 3 bad matchups in the current meta. They can push hard, defend if needed, play flexibly and come out ahead for the small points in tight games and downright decimate the opponent in a good matchup.

Star Dragon is deceptive. Yes, it can push, but a lot of lists also struggle big time taking points from it if it doesn´t want to commit.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Surprised you guys didn't consider using Wood Elves.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Rusty pondered it didn't he?

Some bad match-ups in the meta?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Rusty has not really played the new WE book enough to play it in a serious tournament yet, while his DoC is pretty solid as long as he manages to stay back, get points and does not charge needlessly. I think Wood Elves are strong right now, but I have no idea how good they are in a team setting nor how easy pairing would be with three elf armies. On the other hand, we know that Daemons are really good and not that hard to pair. Always stick with the one you know well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:14 pm 
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Sounds sensible DR.

WE's struggled a bit at the ETC.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Quote:
and does not charge needlessly.


My working hypothesis involves charging horrors into anything and watch the enemy kill themselves with S2 kickbacks.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Statistically, WE struggled at ETC.

But.

The winning team had WE, and although he didn`t perform spectacularly points-wise, how did they affect the pairings? I'm hoping to glean some wisdom from the Swedes at BSK about this as I believe that going up against Dennis' WE list is a nightmare for many of the current usual suspects in the ETC meta. Furthermore I don't believe he ever lost big, so in total this is a huge win for his team and could, possibly, largely help explain their win.

WE is probably the least forgiving elf army in Warhammer as it stands now. They take a long time to master and they play in a unique way that no-one else can duplicate or mimic effectively. True, rusty has a lot of experience with WE but that was the old book and it`s a totally different army from what we see now. Furthermore rusty has gone into Khorne-mode on his old days, he's now more fond of pushing all models ahead at full speed (true story, he charged dark elf combat characters with horrors recently) so I'm kind of hoping we can talk him out of that before BSK. I'm surprised he hasn't picked up Warriors or bus-VC yet ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Yeah, team events are never that simple are they? There was some interesting stuff on Asrai from Serbia's WE player on his Glade Rider-based Coven, particularly regarding fighting MSU Daemons. He was top scoring WE. Funnily enough he failed to highlight the combat threat from Horrors.

:)

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27854

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