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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:50 am 
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Quick update here: OK have been found to have very few bad matchups. We also find that they are very strong in the pairing, since they are a pretty strong counter to lots of the good lists out there. I fear that after the ETC, shooty Ogres will be even more common, which could mean that the placement of the lore of death is extra crucial for us.

Dark Reaper`s experimenting with Shadow. I am experimenting with Death cavstar and Star Coven (see below). Strange has bought Irondrakes and is eager to test the proposed list we have, whereas Rusty`s playing with the new Wood Elf book. I doubt that they are a better choice than OK, but he`s played the list a fair bit and November is far away still.

The current HE drafts are as follows:

Deathtrain wrote:
Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2396


---

Star Coven wrote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Sceptre of Stability - 145
Mage L1 Light on Steed, Ring of Fury - 120
Heroes/Characters: 592/1190

14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 352
8 Reavers, Champion, bows = 162
8 Reavers, Champion, bows = 162
Core: 676

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Special & Rare: 520

Army Total: 2386


Very few points left in list 2. I suppose one of the best ways to spend them is to give the BSB Dragon Armour. While 6++ isn`t all that much, 2++ vs Fire can often come in handy. With this 6 point increase, there are 8 points left and I really don`t know what to do about them ^^

EDIT: just realized my BSB can take the Lion Cloak in the Deathtrain list, at 4 points it fills up to 2400 precisely (in case he ever needs to go out on his own).

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:39 am 
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This is mainly for rusty
With the WE comp finalising how would it affect your armylist? What do you think will be the "optimal" list?

What do you think of this list?
Level 4 Death on Steed - Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
BSB on Steed - Hail of doom, Dragonbane Gem, Charmed Shield, Spear
Level 1 Shadow on Steed - Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
Waystalker - Bow of Loren

12 GG - M
11 GG - M Hagbane
10 GG - M Trueflight
6 GR

7 Sisters - M, SB, Lichebone Pennant
8 WR - SB, Banner of Eternal Flame, Shields
8 WR - SB, Shields

9 WW
8 WW
1 GE

This is mainly for all comers but in team tournaments may switch some stuff around.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 7:56 am 
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@pk-ng
Thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to write up some on the subject.


ETC WE comp wrote:
• Non character model with Asrai longbow, max 90
• Hagbane tips/Trueflight arrows/Waywatchers(counts as 2)/Waystalker (counts as 5), max 60
• Lore of death on spellweaver/moonstone of the hidden ways/3 or more Waystalkers, max 1
• 8 or more Sisters of the Thorn in the same unit/Spellweaver on Elven Steed with Death or Dark magic, max 1
(• Forests placed by wood elf player can be magical)



I'm not sure on the optimal list yet. ETC AR COM focused heavily in the comp pack on preventing a run and hide army with mobile death casters. In a team environment I can symphatize with that. However, WE as I see them have quite a few very bad (-2) matchups. That's based on very limited experience as I've had one game so far. The biggest challenges I guess will be multiple, warded, flying characters. DE and WoC can and will field these. Deathstars will also be very hard to beat 20-0, but probably much easier to draw 10-10.

So far I guess the choice is somewhere between a "catch me if you can" style army designed for the draw, or something more risky and CC-oriented.
As WE combat characters have hardly any protection I will be very surprised to see them used. At the same time, magic is potentially strong. I guess the "standard" army will be a lvl 4 with wild riders and waywatchers, add the rest to taste.

Waystalker I believe have limited usefullness. In way to many matchups your target have T4 og T5, and may also be in hard cover. By all means, prove me wrong :-)-

Hail of Doom changes from previous book
+Armour piercing
+very good synergy with toughness-reducing spell, ie withering/soulblight.
-penalty for moving
-penalty for multiple shot.
In the old book; 10,5 arrows would hit at 2+ on long range while moving. Now they hit on 4+. Using the HoD the one turn you get off withering on a unit with low armour save, can stand still at short range and actually get a decent number of shots will be fantastic. That's too many ducklings lined up in a row however.


Book of Ashur is very interesting. As the one time I tried to use it, my Spellweaver got caressed to death on turn 1, I can't say much about it's real life experience.
Instead, here are some numbers :-).
Spell (casting value): recommended number of dice (probability of getting off spell)
Miasma (5+): 2 (97%)
Steed (5+): 2 (97%)
Enfeebling foe (10+/13+): 2/3 (92% / 91%)
Withering(13+16+): 3/4(90%)
Pendulum (13+/18+): 3(90%)/5(94%)
Pit (14+/17+): 4/5 (97%)
Mindrazor (18+): 4 (76.1%)

Shadow is not the ideal combo with Book of Ashur. The casting values are to high. Heavens would be better since all bare one spell is useful, and casting values are low. Low casting values means more spells cast and more mileage out of the book.
The reason I looked at shadow is that it have very good synergy with the army I'm planning to use. Interestingly, odds of getting off Mindrazor is pretty good. Particularly if you cast that as the last spell in a phase. First throw withering. Then the opponent have to choose. Does he save dice for Mindrazor that might or might not go off?
All of this requires that the mage stays put in a forest. Not guaranteed if someone goes after her.
The biggest downside with book of Ashur is the lack of scroll if you choose just a single mage.

All this rambling is leading to a army list. What I believe will work pretty well is a big unit of Eternal guard.
+synergy with free forest. They are stubborn and still get ranks.
+synergy with forest stalker bonuses
+synergy with venom thicket
+synergy with shadow
+Can block enemy units from chasing mage out of wood
+Is a big and tempting target that focuses an enemy's attention
+can go conga if necessary
+can go long line if face with template weapons
+Fills core without using suboptimal Glade guard setups or no-show Glade riders.
-must stay put in forest for optimal performance
-Very obvious where they'll deploy
-dies like flies to some units and spells.

When it comes to shooting I'll stick to hagbane arrows and waywatchers for the time being. Scouts are good, trueflight are good. Trueflight scouts are very good. The shooting cap is pretty harsh however.



Wood Elves 8th Ed, second draft
Lords (340pts)
Spellweaver (340pts)
Book of Ashur, Obsidian Amulet, Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Shadow

Heroes (114pts)
Glade Captain (114pts)
Asrai Longbow, Asrai Spear, Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Light Armor, Shield

Core (602pts)
Eternal Guard (442pts)
Full command; Gleaming Pennant

10xGlade Guard (160pts)
Hagbane Tips

Special (744pts)
6x Sisters of the Thorn (156pts)

7x Wild Riders, shield (196pts)
7x Wild Riders, shield (196pts)
7x Wild Riders, shield (196pts)

Rare (600pts)

Great Eagle (50pts)
Great Eagle (50pts)

13x Waywatchers (260pts)
12x Waywatchers (240pts)

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:15 am 
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A few more comments on the list

The magic setup is high risk. No scroll is harsh. I'm gambling that I don't have any critical weaknesses where one spell will kill the army.

Three units of wild riders are for synergy. Even though they win they will suffer attrition. That many should clear chaff and small units, and still have enough left to rearcharge anybody that get through into the Eternal guard.

The BSB is minimum priced to do his thing. Might be able to sneak in a dragonbane gem here.

Eternal guard have gleaming pendant to hit minimum core, and enable the BSB to go elsewhere and support wild riders with his reroll.

Waywatchers and glade guard are placed relative to Eternal Guard. Combined with eagles I think they will be able to protect the shooters from non-flyers.

Sisters of the thorns are bunker unit for BSB and mage. They stay in a forest, either behind eternal guard, or somewhere else. They are a bit few, so must rely on hard cover and 2++ vs magic missiles.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:19 am 
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Having played the new WE twice and seen them in 3 other games at the local club, I think rusty`s approach here is very interesting, but I do disagree with a few things:

- Scroll is a must-have. Even if the L1 is only a caddy, you need to have a scroll
- Sisters need MR or LD. You can go MR2 on the BSB if HoDA is not something you think you´ll have uses for. This gives you LD10 which can be crucial. My PG died in droves to Doombolt despite their innate 4++ in both of my recent games vs DE. Your Sisters will do the same. With 2++ it`s a huge difference.
- Waywatchers are carrying too much weight. I`m thinking 20 is max for them, perhaps even 15 is better

Based on this, I suggest the following:

Quote:
Shadow L4 Steed Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
BSB Steed MR2
L1 Steed, Scroll. This guy can either go death for LD10 snipe, Shadow for double Miasma (really helps vs deathstars and board control), Heavens (Iceshard is never wrong) or maybe Beasts for Wyssan`s (though I think the latter has a prohibitively high casting value for an L1)
Eternal Guard
10x Trueflight GG

10x Poison Scouts
7 sisters, standard, banner of +1LD
2x 7 WR, shields

2x Eagles
2x 10 Waywatchers


I don`t have the book at hand for the time being, but this should be somewhere around 2400. Basically I`ve dropped a unit of WRs (200 points) and 5 WWs (100 points), adding a L1 mage, 10 scouts and some equipment.

The poison on the scouts is because I don`t believe they need trueflight. Trueflight is largely good against skirmishers (e.g. Shades, Skinks etc) and war machines and I think Glade Guard are better suited for this role than scouts. Scouts on the other hand can utilize the fact that they are closer to the enemy lines and can thus easier make use of poison. Point in question: say you want to poison that annoying Organ Gun to death. It`s entrenched and your GG start over 30" away from it. You move, fire long, suffer hard = 7+ => no poison. Instead, with trueflight on GG you move, shoot and still hit at 3+ whereas your scouts can either get in short range or stay still (seeing as they deploy after the OG) and get the benefit of poison. Vs Skirmishers, I find the safest bet to keep my firebase centrally positioned so that it`s hard for them to get at me. GG are well suited for this and are thus a perfect counter with trueflight, whereas you don`t want to limit your scouts having to go centrally to counter enemy skirmishers.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am 
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@Curu

Good points.

-Scroll. You're probably right. If so, I'll go for a lvl 1 with iceshard. I don't see how you can get LD10 spirit leech with banner of disipline. Have the FAQ changed (again)?
-My mage already have MR2, so Sisters have 2++ ward. Whether or not the mage lord need ward I'm not so sure. In an ETC setting death is limited, and Wood Elves are not the obvious army to match Death against.
- Trueflight/hagbane. Interesting argument. I think you could be right. Will have to try out to see.

An alternative to dropping wild riders could be to drop sisters in favour of scouts as a bunker. Eternal guard provides a "wall" to hide behind. And with a lvl 1 I don't really need the extra spells.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:28 pm 
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You are right, since you are in the same unit you are "only" LD9. It`s a major difference though. Iceshard sounds good, but I would give miasma some thought as well, it is a superior spell for board control.

The L4 needs at least 3++ vs magic. With a 4++ taking your chances with death snipes can become very lucrative. Fate of Bjuna averages nearly 2W after your 4++ so losing the mage outright isn`t that unlikely. For a team tournament, I think Wood Elves can quickly be a good counter to a death army. Let`s take a different look at it: what death army don`t you want to face with Wood Elves?

3 units of Wild Riders seems excessive. You`re putting 600 points into something that is purely around for counter-attack purposes. You can`t push with them and you only have 2 flanks. They have a significant footprint and despite being fast cav 3 units won`t be that easy to move around while maintaining mobility for the bunker + archers and allow clear lanes of fire.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 10:14 pm 
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.::. Dark Elf Lore Analysis .::.

Assuming the following: We leave the Star Dragon at home, which gives us shooty OK, Dwarfs, Dark Elves avoidance-shooty and cavbus HE. Let`s assume HE want Death. This leaves Shadow for Dark Elves. How does this affect the army and how does this affect the team overall? For this analysis, the sample lists linked here will be used.

Beastmen

Decent initiative, you can`t push 100% because of their magic and snipes are largely ineffective as they are well protected. Shooting is the key to winning here, which means Shadow is superior because of the Withering. Miasma also helps controlling any blocks wanting to break out. Advantage Shadow.

Bretonnia

Shooting is very good here, but so is purple sun. Double scroll however stops crucial spells most of the time, so trickling is key. With Life, Death snipes have a hard time killing much I`d think, whereas Shadow`s RiP spells help your defense. Overall I don`t see either Lore as dominant. Tie.

Chaos Dwarfs

I don`t know if it`s viable to push against them with Darkshards. It probably is, deploying them 1-rank, since none of the CD shooting is particularly effective then. This means that Purple Sun is devastating. Shadow is largely ineffective, Pit is strong but not as good as PS and the rest aren`t all that useful. Advantage Death.

Daemons of Chaos

This is a tricky one. I`m tempted to say Death, but Withering is really, really good for putting damage on flies/beasts/plaguebearers. As DoC don`t have scroll, 5-dicing is much, much better than 4-dicing. Miasma also greatly helps contain threats. Death snipes are largely ineffective. Significant advantage Shadow.

Dark Elves

Withering is usually overkill vs Elves as two casts of soulblight do what you need. Miasma is great in a mirror matchup to contain either witchelves or darkshards bunker. Snipes are hard to land on anything that isn`t LD10 4++ I would think. I feel RiP slightly puts this in Shadow`s favour.

Dwarfs

Dwarfs are weak to all manner of Death spells. Withering and Enfeebling doesn`t matter too much, but miasma is good. Pit is good. Death is just insane though, so significant advantage death.

Empire

This is a tough one. I think both lores are strong. You don`t like Light Magic though, so RiP might push it slightly in Shadow favour. Death has the potential of getting an important kill or two or force him to bunker up though, so overall I`d say tie.

High Elves

One word: BOTWD. Yes, it`s an abbreviation but you get my point. Withering on the other hand is truly terrifying though with all those RXBs. Death does have an advantage vs SD I think (pit is still strong), but against all other lists this is a significant advantage Shadow.

Lizardmen

Snipes are decent, Purple Sun is terrifying, withering and enfeebling are overkill. Miasma is the only saving grace for Shadow, but it`s far from enough. Significant advantage Death.

Ogre Kingdoms

This is interesting. Vs shooty Ogres you can`t advance enough with the bunker to make Purple Sun a threat, can you? Maybe it`s possible, but I feel Shadow is better because of Miasma being a must-dispel, with withering and pit being super-strong as well. I`d say advantage Shadow, but not significant. Vs a deathstar it`s advantage death because he will have to get in range of purple sun to even remotely have a chance at winning, which is a terrifying prospect for any OK list.

Orcs and Goblins

I don`t know their setup too well. D&D is very strong since they always run Trolls. Snipes - can they do anything? Pit and Sun are both good, but withering is a lot stronger than soulblight. D&D is just so good here though, so overall I`d say tie.

Skaven

Oh Skaven, how I hate thee. So with the Bell (and whistles) death snipes are useless vs Grey Seer, but can target the BSB to great effect. Miasma really helps your board control though and withering means you can actually kill the bell with a little luck. It also helps greatly in defense. PS isn`t that great, not that much better than Pit anyways. Double soulblight is largely irrelevant for our DE list as it cannot grind to save its life. I`d say tie, because Stormbanner and Howling Warpgale are really good for reducing our damage output.

Tomb Kings

Withering is either overkill/useless, same for enfeebling. Pit is strong, miasma is meh. Death is nothing but awesome. D&D and Fate are bad, but Spirit Leech, Caress and Sun are all super-strong. Significant advantage death.

Vampire Counts

I don`t see Shadow as vital here. Enfeebling allows you to engage the bunker on paper, but setting it up in practice can be hard. Snipes can pose a threat and sun is really strong. Withering is good vs a blocker type of VC army, where you might suddenly find yourself capable of winning big just by shooting. I`d say advantage shadow vs blocker, advantage death vs pusher.

Warriors of Chaos

Chaos fear 2 things: losing combats and losing characters. Death with its snipes and D&D are well suited for both. Your shooting is already very strong and your flyers can contain his. Shadow is thus largely overkill, whereas death is just brutal. Significant advantage death.

Wood Elves

With a proper bunker you won`t be in range of his mages, or if you are, he has a 4++ or better on the important stuff @LD9. Shadow is largely overkill but Miasma is quite good here. So is D&D though. Tie.

Let`s take a look at the matchups where we lose utility by discarding Death for Shadow then:

- Chaos Dwarfs
- Dwarfs
- Lizardmen
- Deathstar OK
- Tomb Kings
- Pushy VC
- WoC

Chaos Dwarfs. I doubt any of our other lists fear this matchup. High Elves love it. Will have to playtest both Dwarfs (which I assume is 0 for DW, could be -1 though) and shooty OK (assumed to be +1 for OK by standing at 24" and blasting away). I think this matchup is +2 for DE anyway: I don`t see how CD can stop DE from getting into combat and winning the grind: Infernal Guard + characters simply aren`t strong enough. DE arrive too fast with too much. Maybe Death pushes it from +1 to +2, but I think it`s +2 regardless. I`ll try and playtest this.

Dwarfs. Dwarfs mirror is ok. Shooty OK awaiting playtesting but assumed to be good. Bus-HE with Death absolutely loves this matchup. Death pushes it from +1 to +2 I think, but the same is true for the HE bus (with high magic I don`t think there`s enough grinding power to take out enough for a big kill against a skilled DW player).

Lizardmen. I really don`t know how this holds up in our other matchups. The HE-bus is equally strong against them with High and Death.

Deathstar OK. Deathtrain HE can easily take them. Shooty OK can easily take them. I even think DW are good against them, but I could be wrong here as Ogres are fast, durable and hit hard.

TK. Deathtrain HE is hugely better than High here. I think Dark Elves can take this matchup regardless of magic: stay at a distance and win the shooting war. The one list that could cause problems is the Ushabti-shooty one, but against these you can`t push anyway to get in range of PS.

Pushy VC. HE-bus love them anyway. OK hate them .Dwarfs are fine. I don`t think Shadow vs death makes too much of a difference.

Warriors. I think all our lists can take these on ;) For HE it doesn´t matter if you go High or Death.

To conclude, it would appear that although Death is stronger than Shadow overall, we gain more by having our one death army as HE to get the mobile PS. A lot of the above analysis suffers from the fact that an M5 caster just isn`t as good at getting within fate of bjuna/purple sun range as an M9 in a BOTWD unit. Thus my initial analysis is that if we take bus HE, then DE should leave Death in favour of another lore as it hardly makes a big difference in our pairing options whereas HE with Death suddenly have tons of super good matchups (including the usual suspects such as DoC, OK and SD-HE).

Thoughts? :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:52 pm 
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CD vs DW today. I`d say the matchup is 0 or -1 for DW. Report here: http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showt ... #pid236814

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:05 am 
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rusty wrote:
-Scroll. You're probably right. If so, I'll go for a lvl 1 with iceshard. I don't see how you can get LD10 spirit leech with banner of disipline. Have the FAQ changed (again)?
According to the GW FAQ SoD does affect spirit leech so they did change it again...unless ETC FAQ change it? need to check.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Having played the new WE twice and seen them in 3 other games at the local club, I think rusty`s approach here is very interesting, but I do disagree with a few things:

- Scroll is a must-have. Even if the L1 is only a caddy, you need to have a scroll
- Sisters need MR or LD. You can go MR2 on the BSB if HoDA is not something you think you´ll have uses for. This gives you LD10 which can be crucial. My PG died in droves to Doombolt despite their innate 4++ in both of my recent games vs DE. Your Sisters will do the same. With 2++ it`s a huge difference.
- Waywatchers are carrying too much weight. I`m thinking 20 is max for them, perhaps even 15 is better

Based on this, I suggest the following:

Quote:
Shadow L4 Steed Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
BSB Steed MR2
L1 Steed, Scroll. This guy can either go death for LD10 snipe, Shadow for double Miasma (really helps vs deathstars and board control), Heavens (Iceshard is never wrong) or maybe Beasts for Wyssan`s (though I think the latter has a prohibitively high casting value for an L1)
Eternal Guard
10x Trueflight GG

10x Poison Scouts
7 sisters, standard, banner of +1LD
2x 7 WR, shields

2x Eagles
2x 10 Waywatchers


I don`t have the book at hand for the time being, but this should be somewhere around 2400. Basically I`ve dropped a unit of WRs (200 points) and 5 WWs (100 points), adding a L1 mage, 10 scouts and some equipment.

The poison on the scouts is because I don`t believe they need trueflight. Trueflight is largely good against skirmishers (e.g. Shades, Skinks etc) and war machines and I think Glade Guard are better suited for this role than scouts. Scouts on the other hand can utilize the fact that they are closer to the enemy lines and can thus easier make use of poison. Point in question: say you want to poison that annoying Organ Gun to death. It`s entrenched and your GG start over 30" away from it. You move, fire long, suffer hard = 7+ => no poison. Instead, with trueflight on GG you move, shoot and still hit at 3+ whereas your scouts can either get in short range or stay still (seeing as they deploy after the OG) and get the benefit of poison. Vs Skirmishers, I find the safest bet to keep my firebase centrally positioned so that it`s hard for them to get at me. GG are well suited for this and are thus a perfect counter with trueflight, whereas you don`t want to limit your scouts having to go centrally to counter enemy skirmishers.
+1

One issue I have with EG is they have to stick with the forest to some what have their skills maximise and that means preditable play. It also restrict mobility and once you've placed your forest the opponent knows they either want to occupy it asap or try and go around it. I'm just not confident with having EG but I've yet to use them.

I think WS are a necessary evil and it can help threaten characters really really well. I once took out, i once took our the chaos lord on dragon (just the lord) and his caster on turn 1 (no more chracters). I think they are very good at helping with board control especially with t3 mages as people do not want to lose thier mage early on and therefore you know they will try and protect it as best as possible there by funnel their deployment into a certain setup.

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2015 - High Elves & Top HE

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:07 pm 
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I had a loss against DE yesterday. Lots of chaff and a Cold One bus with 3 heroes. The amount of incoming WM hunters was amazing 2 DR, 2 Harpies and 1 warlock. In these situations I have to protect the Organ Gun better. The Irondrakes were the bane of many elves. Pretty much deleting a unit per turn. In the end they killed a unit each of dark riders, warlocks, harpies, witch elves and dark shards. Thats including taking a purple sun to the face and ended the battle alive. They are great but vanguarding the BSB with them is really awkward, especially against death casters. In this game they would maybe have been better of without vanguarding up, need to learn this better.

Hammerers, do they have a spot in the list? Can something else do the job, like a tank lord and some more irondrakes? We have discussed this a little at the club but i remain unconvinced at the moment.

No time for list musings, but they are certainly incoming!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:39 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
rusty wrote:
One issue I have with EG is they have to stick with the forest to some what have their skills maximise and that means preditable play. It also restrict mobility and once you've placed your forest the opponent knows they either want to occupy it asap or try and go around it

True.

However, the rest of the army is completely non-predictable. As such, EG can focus the opponents attention. Whether this will work is yet to see. I will bring EG to a swedish comp turney in one week, after that I will know more.

Two more games with Shooty Ogres.

First vs Skaven Deathstar. And I mean serious deathstar. First two ranks are filled up with characters, and that's without a screaming bell. The rest of the army had the usual good stuff; wheel, cannon, Hellpit, gutter runners slaves. Terrain was less than favourable with restricted fire lanes. To top it he got first turn. In the end I killed everything but the deathstar and a handful of slaves. Losses were a bit of chaff and half the Maneaters (The got to close to a doomwheel). 13-7 win. (+1) matchup.
It's pretty much impossible for the skaven to eliminate my chaff as long as he only have one magic missile. On the other hand, I can never engage his deathstar at full strength. Best bet is shooting it down to somewhat managable and then combocharge. That requires I engage and destroy slaves early on to open up a flank. At the same time cannon, wheel and hellpit must be eliminated or they will do serious damage.


Second match vs Wood Elves. The poor elves struggle a lot vs all of my shooting. Sisters bunker is hard to catch, but given the lack of other cannon targets I simply shot Ironblasters at them from turn one. The spellweaver ate a cannonball in turn three or four. Gnoblars are a solid shield vs arrows. This showed it's worth in turn three when my Maneaters were unmasked, the WE player were able to concentrate shooting and get off IF soulblight. Five fell in one turn of shooting. Wild riders are as expected super powerful on the charge. Two! killed a firebelly and broke his leadbelcher regiment, for 500+ points.
20-0.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:01 am 
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Updated BRs with my recent HE-BR game and a link to Strange`s synopsis of the DE game. I saw a turn of it or so live as he played at the same time as I faced BR, and it should be said that an IF 30" Purple Sun was largely the reason why DE managed to break through in style. With that said, I also noted that although the Irondrakes were ridiculously powerful, the huge footprint of 3 units wanting to go wide is a problem when it comes to defense. This is interesting because I think we could be looking at non-Hammerer configurations and maybe create tighter castles. With a tank-lord for example you can pretty much tell any non-flying unit that "you cannot go here!". Furthermore it saves points for more Irondrakes. I know other players also find that OGs are too hard to protect properly, I`ve heard it argued that 2x cannon and 2x GT is a better configuration and I`m actually coming around to considering it as well, despite the brutal strength of the OG.

Let`s consider such a list:

Quote:
Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers with Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might, Shield = 315
Thane BSB, Master Rune of Groth One-eye, Shield = 168
Runesmith, Spellbreaking x2, Rune of the Furnace, Rune of Fire, Shield = 123
Runesmith, Spellbreaking x1, Master Rune of Balance, Shield = 138
Characters = 744

26 Longbeards, Great Weapons, FC, 3x Rune of Sanctuary = 439
11 Quarrellers, Great Weapons, Musician = 164
Core = 603

Cannon, Forging = 145
Cannon, Forging, Burning = 150
Grudge Thrower, Forging, Accuracy, Penetrating = 170
Grudge Thrower, Forging, Accuracy, Burning = 135
War Machines = 600

14 Irondrakes, Musician = 220
14 Irondrakes, Musician = 220
Rare = 440

Army total = 2387


About as different to our current list as you can get I believe, with tons of roadblocks and shooting that can blast apart just about anything. The combat strength is significantly weakened, but I think the blocker-lord can largely compensate for this.

MR3 on the Longbeards ensures decent protection vs snipes. The BSB is a lot weaker without his ward, but he can chill out in the back ranks with the Quarrellers to provide stubborn to the entire army.

Thoughts? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:15 am 
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Some more musings on the sample list above, first deployment:

Image

Basically this castle is hard to attack. Assuming you want to wrap around on the long flank, the General can jump out to the Irondrakes and block whatever`s of interest, if the shooting can`t handle it. If an enemy manages to wrap around with weak troops, Irondrakes can turn around and shoot but more importantly, the xbows become important. Deploying the Xbows to deny flyers and counter light threats wrapping around can be crucial, depending on the matchup. A possibility is decreasing Irondrakes a little bit to get some Rangers in: these could perform a variety of roles from defending the open space behind the right-most Irondrakes to being a harassing unit vs enemy war machines.

The strength of a setup like this is the list`s ability to take just about any ranged fight and expect to come out well. Maybe some lists will be hard to handle, but 2x cannon + 2x GT can beat most lists in a firefight.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:31 am 
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Just out of interest, how do ETC rulings treat the interaction of Arcane Unforging and Runic Items? If Unforging can destroy Runic Items, could a HE Dragon Prince Bus with Lore of High Magic and Arcane Unforging be a problem for this new Dwarf list? Between Dragon Armour and the BotWD, the Bus can approach without too many problems and if IF Unforging (or just repeated attempts if you fail to eat the spell) gets the BSB's Master Rune of Groth One-eye or the Lord's Master Rune of Adamant, then you could end up in trouble.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:08 am 
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Thank you for a very interesting thread.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Runic Items are magic items. I don't think ETC has a special ruling for this, but if I remember correctly casting Unforging on a WM will destroy its runes without destroying the machine itself. I think High Elves overall are good vs Dwarfs, depending on build of course, as long as you have a big unit of elites and/or bus with proper support and a well-built list. Obviously defensive variants and monster lists will struggle in this matchup.

2 more reports coming up tomorrow, if I have time :) SD HE vs shooty OK and shooty OK vs CD ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:24 am 
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I would like to check with Dwarf Cannons are 48" (as per cannon rule) or 60" (as per great cannon rule).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:58 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
I would like to check with Dwarf Cannons are 48" (as per cannon rule) or 60" (as per great cannon rule).


They are normal cannons, 48".


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Thank you for posting up the list Curu.

As you show in the diamgram this setup gives to "softer" flanks of drakes that the enemy can push through and the Lord has to jump around to save the day. On the topic of Lords. Are you on the side were a T10 W5 Lord is better than a T6 W6 5++ build?

I want to try this kind of army but maybe with less drakes and a few Rangers or a copter. How about reducing the GT loadout for a copter? Shuffle the drakes around to one big and one smaller "loner" unit? Something like:

Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers with Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might, Shield = 313
Thane BSB, Master Rune of Groth One-eye, Shield = 168
Runesmith, Spellbreaking x2, Shield = 108
Runesmith, Spellbreaking x1, Master Rune of Balance, Shield = 138


26 Longbeards, Great Weapons, FC, 3x Rune of Sanctuary = 439
11 Quarrellers, Great Weapons, Musician = 164
Core = 603

Cannon, Forging = 145
Cannon, Forging, Burning = 150
Grudge Thrower, Accuracy, Penetrating = 145
Grudge Thrower, Accuracy, = 105
Gyrocopter

18 Irondrakes, Musician = 280
10 Irondrakes, Musician = 160

2395points


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm 
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I have no idea of the points values for each choice or the comp implications but on pure face value I would tend to think a T6 lord is a better choice against more varied opponents. I only really see the T10 helping you against warmachines (where you are likely to have 'Look Out Sir!' anyway) and when trying to tank monsters (hopefully not an issue with all the warmachines Dwarfs have & very matchup dependent).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Will comment in-depth later, but from the top of my the following things a T10 lord can block whereas a T6 one will die to:

- White Lions
- Monstrous cav of any sorts
- Monsters (Tstomp)
- DE Dreadlord/HE Cavprince, possibly with bus support (doesn`t really matter, whether alone or with support they will kill such a T6 dude)
- Skaven Bellstar (Assassin with Weeping Blade + PoS gets you and impact hits wound on 4+)
- Chaos lords/heroes/princes/greater daemons

I think the difference between T6 and T10 is essential, much more so than 1W and a ward save. I`ve played a lot with T7 and T8 (Star Dragon and Iron Daemon, respectively) lately and even they go down surprisingly easy now and then.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:59 am 
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Assuming Dwarf Lord is
T6 W6 with 2+/5++ and
T10 W5 with 2+

And if my maths is correct
T10 is overall better vs units that are vanilla S5+

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:20 pm 
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I had a game this week with Dwarfs this week against WoC

Dwarfs:
Tank Lord, T10, 5W, 1+ AS, rune of might
2 runesmiths, one with scroll and balance, other with superscroll, shields
Thane BSB with groth eye, shield

26 Longbeards, GW, MR3
11 Quarrelers, GW, veteran

Cannon, forging, burning
Cannon, forging
Grudge Thrower, forging, accuracy
Grudge Thrower, forging, accuracy, burning
Gyrocopter

20 Iron Drakes, muso
5 Rangers

2345 points (Wooops, forgot to spend all my points)

WoC had
Disc Lord
Lvl 3 with tzeench
BSB demonic steed
Hero on demonic steed
A bunch of warriors with Blasted Standard
3 slaanesh chariots
Chimera
5 skull crushers


In theory this is a really good match up for dwarfs. All the dangerous things in his list are afraid of my Lord while an abundance of flaming shooting keeps the chimera in check aswell. What really surprised me this game was the power of the Blasted Standard against Dwarfs. S5 cannons against his super 1+AS, 3++ heroes makes for a lot of dice rolling to get a wound in. This game my magic defense shined, rolled well for Master Rune of Balance the first two phases and the spelleater rune destroyed Infernal Gateway rendering his ranged threat harmless. T2 two chariots suicide charged my Longbeards, whom promptly fluffed their attacks and failed their LD 10 rerollable breaktest sending two chariots in to my Quarreler bunker. I thought this was the game, but suddenly the strengths of my list kicked in. Groth eye kept the quarrelers stubborn, a runesmith with shield and parry tanked the attacks of one chariot (crew and horses) while the GW quarrelers did their best with S5 AP (killing one) and held for two rounds until the Lord made short of the chariot and at the same time blocking the bunker against the Chaos Warrior unit with the heroes.

In the end he had one skull crusher, 3 warriors, wizard and two heroes on demonic mounts. I had lost the Longbeards with a runesmith, rangers and gyrocopter. I have played alot of games against WoC over the years and never have they seemed easier to handle than having a monster Dwarf Lord keeping the Chaos characters out of combat. Hammerers could not have done this, the WoC heroes would instead have smashed the Iron Drakes without the Lord to deter them. Also with only two sizeable blocks and a bunker the Dwarven Castle becomes really tight and impenetrable by flyers. Love this list concept so far, even though I was a bit skeptic to begin with.

How did the Chimera die you ask? It failed a charge, ended up close to the Irondrakes and got 20 S5 flaming shots at short range in the face.

What to spend the last 55 points on? Penetration on a GT or Rune of Slowness on the drakes?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Battle Report against Rusty's Ogres: http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php ... 84#p905384

I tried Heavens this game and it worked well. I am not entirely convinced of its usability, but it is really good against Ogres at least.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:47 am 
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No in-depth needed it seems ^^ The lord proved to be valuable indeed! I really like the list concept, now it`s all about refining it.

In other news the Deathtrain is well and good. I`m struggling to find a Star Dragon approach I like. I have yet to test the vanilla high magic bus approach, which is next in line. I might try the Dragonmage for a game or two actually. The Deathtrain however requires Dark Elves to be able to play with another lore, so our recent encounter vs OK here is very interesting in that regard. More playtesting needed.

The BR section has been updated with quite a few games - check it out on Page 1 ;) At this pace we`ll have quite a few games come November, but knowing this time of the year we`ll quickly find ourselves with but a month or two left, time goes fast!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:20 am 
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I had a game against DE with pretty much the same list. Added a standard with rune of slowness to the Iron Drakes.
DE:
- Lvl4 Death, Ring of Hotek, Dispel Scroll, ironcurs icon = 300
- Master: BSB, Pegasus,HA, SDC, S, Lance, Cloak of Twiligth = 203
- Master: Pegasus, HA, GW, SDC, S, Talisman of Preservation, Potion of Foolhardiness = 186
- Master: Pegasus, HA, SDC, 2x Handbow, Charmed shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone = 184

- 31 Darkshards: FC, shields, Gleaming pennant = 443
- 14 Corsairs: FC, Standard of dicipline 199

- 5 Shades = 80
- 5 Shades = 80
- Bolt Thrower = 70
- Bolt Thrower = 70
- Bolt Thrower = 70
- Bolt Thrower = 70
- 5 Harpies = 75
- 5 harpies = 75

- 6 Warlocks = 150
- 6 Warlocks = 150

I got first turn and proceeded shot away some BTs and hurt the xbos a little, while the copter killed a unit of shades. Turn 2 I manage to kill his BSB and panic away some Harpies, but by now the DE shooting with 3x Soulblight is laying down the hurt on my Longbeards. The game is very standoff since he has the movement advantage. I cant move out of the castle or his fliers will land behind my lines to reap the rewards of a 600 point warmachine park. Turn 4 sees IF Purple Sun fly through all my Irondrakes reducing them to 5, meaning he could commit his flyers and warlocks in turn 5 for a turn 6 charge. Top of T6 my Lord fails a 5+ charge on his Peg hero with Talisman, but the cannons take care of the one without a ward save. DE T6 only sees one warmachine go down and the Longbeards cling to life. 14 Corsairs try their luck against 5 Irondrakes, but 4+, 6++ is solid against S3 and they murder 4 corsairs back. Corsairs pass their break test thanks to standard of discipline.
In the end DE got half points for Longbeards (1 survived!) and Irondrakes, in addition they killed off copter, rangers, one runesmith and my cheapest GT. I had killed 2 peg heroes, BTs, 1xharpies, 1xshades and he had a fleeing warlock. In total I was up by 167 points, 10-10!

I’m really happy with this result. I find DE a tough match-up and death is really nasty against Dwarfs with both Purple Sun and snipes to threaten my important stubborn banner BSB. The slowness banner never had an effect on the game so hard to evaluate the worth. The corsairs were only 5 from the drakes when they charged. In this match the points would have been better spent on +1S on a GT which could have reduced the Xbow threat much more efficiently. I still think 5 rangers are worthwhile compared to another copter. They are one less drop and can fill crucial holes after deployment.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:52 am 
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I'm aiming for a few games this weekend. One of them will be Curu's bus of death. Currently the list stands as such:

Quote:
Tank Lord, T10, 5W, 1+ AS, rune of might
2 runesmiths, one with scroll and balance, other with superscroll, shields
Thane BSB with groth eye, shield

26 Longbeards, GW, MR3
11 Quarrelers, GW, veteran

Cannon, forging, burning
Cannon, forging
Grudge Thrower, forging, accuracy
Grudge Thrower, forging, accuracy, burning
Gyrocopter

20 Iron Drakes, muso, standard, slowness.
5 Rangers


I'm thinking of testing a few things: 1. Core changes. Dropping one Longbeard and quarreler gives me enough points to add shields to 25 Longbeards bringing them to a unit cap of 450 points and exactly 600 points in Core. This will make the Longbeards tougher to wittle down from afar while only losing 1 body from the combat block. 2. Dropping the standard and slowness on the Iron Drakes in exchange for +1s on the one GT (means I can drop flaming). This will increase its damage output vastly, hitting a unit of elves will be a lot more satisfying. This also reduces the saves of for example Silver Helms from 2+ to 3+ which is massive (who cares about BOTWD). 3. These changes leave me with 18 points to spare. Options: Drop a shield on one Runesmith and get vanguard on Gyro. Add a banner to Irondrakes. Add another Irondrake, Quarreler, Ranger or Longbeard


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Updated with a few games :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:39 am 
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I will be taking this list to a 5-game tournament this weekend

Dwarf Lord, general, Shieldbearers, shield, Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might - 313

Runesmith, shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking - 113
Runesmith, shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking - 138
Thane, BSB, shield, Master Rune of Groth One-Eye - 168

25 Longbeards, FCG, Shields, Great Weapons, 3x Rune of Sanctuary - 450
10 Quarrelers, veteran, great weapons - 150

Cannon, Rune of Forging - 145
Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning - 150
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy - 130
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating - 170
Gyrocopter - 80
Gyrocopter - 80

20 Irondrakes, musician - 310

I predict meeting either Curu or Rusty for the first game


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