A long road to victory

[Galder]

Short intro of my warhammer history

I was "tricked" into the Warhammer world for about two years ago of some friends in my hometown. So I started playing High Elves since about all the other "cool" armies was "occupied". So thats how it all began.
Im still not very experienced, but at the beginning it was all loss, loss, loss..
And I tried about all the popular builds like Dragonlist, Light Coven, Combined Arms, Monster Smash, MSU etc. Its still mostly losses, but now I even get some wins and draws, so Im sure that means that Im on the right track!
Unfortunately I have not the possibility to play so much live games, so I play mostly on Universalbattle (I guess I just have played about 6-8 live games so far, but it start to get a lot of online matches).

Im a little divided in my gaming philosophy. I like the strategy and the competitive part of the game, but Im a little torn about the competetive and the fun and realisme. So it means that I for example want build list that I maybe think is more competitive (for example one dimensional deathstars) and I want for example not congaline my WL even if it would have been the optimal thing to do.. So its not easy be me..


The history of my last armylist:

Archmage
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Heaven
Book of Hoeth
Talisman of Endurance
Ironcurse Icon
25 Phoenix Guard FC
Halberd; Heavy Armour;
Razor Standard
27 White Lions of Chrace
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Lion Cloak;
Gleaming Pendant
Noble
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Shield; Battle Standard
Star Lance
Golden Crown of Atrazar
Dragonhelm
17 Archers
Longbow; Musician
10 Archers
Longbow
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bow (swap); Light Armour; Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bow (swap); Light Armour; Musician
7 Silver Helms
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Ithilmar Barding
1 Great Eagle
1 Great Eagle
1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
6 Sisters of Averlorn

Models in Army: 110

Total Army Cost: 2400.0


I used a frost phoenix and bsb with reaver bow+PoS before that version, but I got a little bored off that my phoenix always got shot down, so then I dropped him.
Later I thought that my spells selection in the different phases wasnt that great (ofcourse iceshard is always nice, but except that..). So I wanted to try out the Loremaster (I had always ignored him since it looked like it was a consensus that he sucked and about nobody here on ulthuan played him).
But after I had used the search function to see if I could find some suggestion for his setup, I found out that many of the biggest contributors here just had started playing him also.

So I switched out the Archmage with the Loremaster and boosted the Helms to 10 with FC (dropped the eagles and some bodies on the WL and PG), I also added an scroll caddy (have used both shadow and heaven for him, both dual miasma and iceshard is really nice to have.)

I liked the setup, but I think the Silver Helms was a little too weak, even my plan was to use them to clear chafs, lone chariots, and maybe go around flanks to hunt WM, bunkers etc.
Another thing is that I think my list started to be so similiar many others list, so I wanted some new changes.


The New List

This time I wanted to switch out the big helm unit and my bsb.
Actually they havent done very much for me, the typical thing is that they get charged by a chariot, a monster or something like that, and then they will either flee or be stuck in CC for the rest of the game (or they just get shot to pieces).

So I will try to go back to 2x5 Helms instead. I think they can do a fine job hunting chafs and WM alone.
And I will try out a BSB on eagle.
The problem with a BSB on eagle is the usual fear of warmachines, as he will be very vurnerable as he is my only "big cannon target". So I guess he will have to hide if I meet some warmachines, and in matches with just a lot of BS shooting can he join one of the other unit if neccesary, to be protected by both magic spells and shooting. And he can also charge out of the unit if he should get an good opportunity.



Combined Arms v2

1 Loremaster of Hoeth
General; Magic Level 2; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
Book of Hoeth
Talisman of Preservation
1 Mage
Magic Level 2; Lore of Heaven
Dispel Scroll
1 Noble
Lance; Heavy Armour; Lion Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Dragonhelm
Golden Crown of Atrazar
Potion of Strength
1 Great Eagle
Shredding Talons; Swift Sense
5 Silver Helms, FC
5 Silver Helms, Musican, Champ
12 Archers, Musican
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musican, Bow (swap)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musican, Bow (swap)
24 Phoenix Guard, FC
Razor Standard
24 White Lions of Chrace, FC
Banner of the World Dragon
3 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
5 Sisters of Averlorn

Models in Army: 90


Total Army Cost: 2398.0

[Galder]

My first battle report:
1: HE vs LM ETC


This is my first battle report, so it may be a little errorful and messy!

Here is his list:
1 Slann Mage-Priest
General; 2 Discipline; Magic Level 4; Lore of High Magic; Battle Standard
# Harmonic Convergence
# Focus of Mystery
Channeling Staff
Obsidian Lodestone

1 Saurus Scar-Veteran
Great Weapon
Armour of Destiny
1 Cold One

1 Saurus Scar-Veteran
Shield
Dawn Stone
Dragonhelm
Sword of Striking
1 Cold One

1 * Saurus Scar-Veteran
Great Weapon; Light Armour
Dragonbane Gem
Charmed Shield
The Other Tricksters Shard
1 Cold One

24 Skinks Cohort, FC

19 Skinks Cohort, FC

19 Skinks Cohort, FC

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

2 Salamander Hunting Packs

3 Ripperdactyl Riders

29 Temple Guard, FC

1 Bastiladon
Ark of Sotek


Before the battle began..
I won the roll over choosing side so I choosed the north, as I planned to put two RBTs on
the hill and maybe one behind the wall in east. And the plan was to put the sisters of Avelorn in front of the
forest and move into it first turn to get some cover.
I knew that he hadnt any long distance shooting, so the plan was to sacriface the rbt in the
east and get the reavers there back, and then just use the RBTs to decimate him, and spam his
vurnerable units with a lot of small magic spells.

Deployment
Both Helms was deployed on western flank
to be assured that his skinks wouldnt advance into my flank or go around my infantery to reach the units on the hill.
The RBT on left is marked because the lizardmen accused them for for stolen some eggs from the Ripperdactyls,
which ofcourse is not true (what a cynical general he must be to trick his own allies to believe in that).....


Spells: I rolled 5,6 for the lv2, I would rather have harmonic or curse, but I ended up taking the Comet
(as he have a lot of small vurnerable unit).

Vanguards: I won and vanguarded the reavers exactly enough to be in the ruins to get some cover, and to
prevent his vanguards. He then choosed to not vanguard.



HE turn 1
I advanced slowly, just to get some targets in range for magic spells.
I also move my western RBT to the tip of the Hill, because Im sure the archers will just be in its way later.
(I should have thought about it when deploying, but I didnt know he would deploy all in the eastern corner...)

Magic 10-6
I started with fireball 10+ on his skirmishers with the two Scar-Veterans, which he let in, it did a lot of wounds.
Then he dispells the Comet, and I cast Shems on same unit which goes in, and then at last I throw Iceshard on them.
(At the moment I was thinking since both had stupidity, that I maybe could mess them some up
with iceshard, but they was ofcourse one unit, so they just needed one roll. So That spell was pretty wasted).





LM turn 1
He start and advance mainly on the east side as I thought he would.

Magic 8-4
He opened up with the engine on reavers, and I used all to dispell since my other units
was out of range of his magic. Then he got in Hand on the skinks (+1BS), then Walk on
same skinks and placed them straigh in front of my reavers.

Luckily just one reaver died in the shooting phase.





HE turn 2
I was prepared to loose the RBT, but now it actually looked like I maybe could save it, or
delay the sacriface one turn. So I moved it 5" away (its really not often I move on RBTs, but I think it was a wise choice here),
so he would get a dillema if he wanted to try charge it, he could fail and maybe end up in a bad spot.
I also started withdrawing my reavers and my BSB positioned himsel so he could countercharge if he failed a charge or got into the rbt.

Magic 10-5
Fireball on skinks 10+ which he let it again. They get 3w, and is out of the Slanns range, so they flee off the table.
Then searing doom on scar-veteran, and he use all DD to dispel it. Then I fail comet with 4 dices.

I didnt do much damage in the shooting phase.





LM turn 2
He started with charge the reavers with the Ripperdactyls, they flee and he redirect them into
the sisters who SnS.
He charge the fleeing reavers with the scar-veteran and they luckily just flee 4" more, then
he redirects him into the RBT. Rippers goes into the Sisters and the scar-veteran fails his charge.

Magic 8-4
He cast boosted Hand on the skinks and it gives them +1BS, thats everything that he get through that phase.
The enchanted Skinks gets very lucky in the shooting phase and kills off all the Reavers.
And I fail panic test on both Helms. It makes a mess in my lines, but luckily no more
panics after been fled through.
The Sisters fail to hurt the Rippers and they get all slain, and overruns into the WLs.
(actually they fail theyre DT test and loose 1 wound, so its just two Rippers left (not that it matter much here))





HE turn 3
I rally both the Helms and the Reavers, other than that I moved very little.

Magic 12-7
Since Im in CC cant I use many of my spells, and I dont think the WL need any spells in the fight,
so I cast Miasma -M on his scar-veteran (as I want to have him grounded there), and he dispelles it.
Then I cast iceshard on the skinks which killed my reavers, it goes through and its the end of MP.
I use most of my firepower on his skinks, and kills 12 of them.
In CC the Rippers dissapear very quickly and I reform the WL from 8 wide to 7 wide, just to make them
more manageable.





LM turn 3
Not so much movement, the Bastiladon moves forward to get a new target, and his lone scar-
veteran moves into the skink unit.

Magic 11-6
He got off a tempest which kill 1PG, then he swap the spell and get Bolts of Burning (Lore of fire nr4).





HE turn 4
One of the problem I have is to know how and when to advance and make the charges. So in many of my last combat have
I found out that I should had pushed all too late. As its not that fun to come into CC turn 5 or 6th when u have the upper hand.
So I thought that now is the time I should get into CC as fast as possible, so I advanced with most of my units.

I got through Miasma -BS on the skinks and then Wildform on the PG in my magic phase.
The reason for the wildform is that I will now be in range for a lot of damage spells, which
the WL is about immune to. Like Fiery Convocation, Bolts of Burning, boosted soul quench and so on,
so Wildform may save the PG for a lot of wounds. His salamanders will maybe also try to get in a shot or two when I start advance his units.





LM turn 4
In the movement phase he just draw his units back, except for the salamanders which advances as I thought they would do.

Magic 7-4
He started with the engine on the reavers, which I let in since I wanted to save the dices for more important spells.
Unfortunately the Solar engine kills all the reavers.
Then I dispell the Arcane Unforging on the BSB.





HE turn 5
Well, since he withdrawed his forces so I couldnt get in any charge before atleast turn 6,
I decided just to withdraw mine also. I guess I would have more to loose than gain from
further advance against him.

I got iceshard on the salamanders and The Comet through (The Comet was placed between his Salamanders and Skinks).





LM turn 5
He doesnt like the Comet spell so his salamanders tries to avoid the spot by going into the forest,
and his other forces advances to get my units into range for spells.

Magic 10-4
He got both the engine and then Fire bolts in on the PG, The firebolts does 12W, luckily most is saved by wards.



(Forgot to take screenshot)


HE turn 5
I just continue my withdrawal and the beginning of my magic phase the Comets arrives.
I roll 6,6 for range, and it kills the three nearest unit (included the salamanders).

Magic 9-6
I start with spirit leech on the scar-veteran in bunker, just to try get him to use up his DD.
It works and I follow up with big version Shems on his Bastiladon I use 4PD (about 83% to make it,
as I dont want to use more to risk MC now). And it goes off with IF.. The Shems does 3w, so 1w left.
The misscast is detonation! just 1WL gets wounded and it get ofcourse saved by the Banner.
In the shooting phase used I all the RBTs to shoot volley on his Bastiladon to try take out its last wound,
the bolt shower does 11 hits and 4w. It saves just one, so it fall over and is gone.

Then he cast in the towel since its no point continue the game.
We didnt count up the points, but I guess it was an ok win for the HEs since they had just lost two units of reavers.





Afterthoughts

I think it was an good matchup for the High Elves as the Lizardmen didnt have any long ranged attacks.
The only thing I felt a little scary about was a couple of the High Magic spells, Fiery Convocation and Arcane Unforging.
I think I did pretty well in the battle (well for being me), but I struggled a little as usuall to know how to advance against him and get into CC.
I started move forward for getting into CC all to late again, in turn 4, but withdrawed the forces already the turn after.. That didnt cost me so much, but it was clearly
an miss.

BSB: My BSB didnt do much either, I could possible have fled against him on the western flank to harass him since he looked a little vurnerable there
(and the BSB got 1+ vs shooting.). But then he wouldnt have done his BSB duty, so I guess that he just did his job. Sometimes he just have to stay back
and make an threat range so small enemy unit want do any boarderlines charge against my other unit without getting a charge against them.
And he can also keep others fast cavalry away from my backlines, as he is much more mobile than a "big" unit of for example Silver Helms.
Loremaster:The loremaster did as usual a whole lot. His many damage spells is very nice against small enemy units with low toughness as skirmishers.
He can cast a spell every turn that his opponent "have" to dispel (often spirit leech or searing doom), and after the opponent have used his dispel dices can he start with spamming out 2-4 spells when theyre defence is down.
Other units:I cant actually comment so much about the other units except the RBTs since it have been just one CC fight in the whole game, and everything have been very static. The RBTs is always nice, and it gives the list the opportunity to many times just lay back and send shower of arrows over theyre enemies.
The RBTs is also very nice against all the singel models out there, like scar-vets on theyre own, single heroes on pegasus etc. I think the fight would be completly different without them, as I would be forced into CC to get points, and all the scar-veterans would have operated on theyre own as I have seen they have done many times before when they have had the opportunity.


So hope to get some good suggestion here, about the list, and in all the phases
I need also some comments about the battle report itself, since I have no experience how to set it up and what to write in it.

[Jimmy]

Hey Galder

Thanks for taking the time to post up the battle report, always great to see more and more popping up all over the place.

Your deployment seemed to be sound and based off level headed thinking so nice one right there.

Turn 1 – Magic phase was certainly potent and wiping out a unit per turn it a great way to kick things into gear! Your opponent certainly knows how to get the best out of his skinks however and that was a nice combo with Hand of Glory and Walk between Worlds to put your reavers in a tight spot.

Turn 2 – Great setups for the skinks if they get through but your magic handled them nicely. Would Iceshard Blizzard perhaps been a better spell to get off onto the flying units? Would have possibly caused some damage and then effected any combats they went into? Then you could have attempted a 2 dice Spirit Leech as well onto the character? Why didn’t you flee with the Sisters here? Interested on your thoughts behind this as I think he would have had to complete the charge against the original target taking him into the BSB’s charge arc?

Turn 3 – Just can’t cast magic missiles in combat so still a lot to be done. Spirit Leech, Iceshard, Miasma etc. It appears he’s reacting to you here which is great, you’ve got the initiative here in my view.

Turn 4 - I would have thought boosting the WL Toughness to 4 would have been better seeing as the PG have a good ward anyway?

Turn 5 – Great to see the comet get used and come down with a fantastic result! Well done on structuring the magic phase for maximum damage.

Conclusion – a great first battle report mate so big congrats. I think perhaps your opponent didn’t quite know how to proceed against the solid blocks of Lions/PG?

[Galder]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it!
I will try get down some comments.

Hey Galder
Turn 1 – Magic phase was certainly potent and wiping out a unit per turn it a great way to kick things into gear! Your opponent certainly knows how to get the best out of his skinks however and that was a nice combo with Hand of Glory and Walk between Worlds to put your reavers in a tight spot.

Yeah, that was a nice trick of him, just to bad he had terrible luck with the dices, and I actually managed to save a wound or two also..


Turn 2 – Great setups for the skinks if they get through but your magic handled them nicely. Would Iceshard Blizzard perhaps been a better spell to get off onto the flying units? Would have possibly caused some damage and then effected any combats they went into? Then you could have attempted a 2 dice Spirit Leech as well onto the character? Why didn’t you flee with the Sisters here? Interested on your thoughts behind this as I think he would have had to complete the charge against the original target taking him into the BSB’s charge arc?

I agree, both blizzard on the Rippers and spirit leech on the character would have been a better choice.
And regarding the charge; I thought that if I choosed to flee with my sisters would he make a fail charge for sure, since he couldnt redirect a third time. Then he would had moved about just 5"(?), and then it would be a longshot for my BSB. I guess he would have made it. But then would he have been in the open field all alone.
And be exposed to spell like boosted soulquench, beam from the solar engine and so on. So I maybe safed a little to much? maybe someone else have some views on its also.

Turn 3 – Just can’t cast magic missiles in combat so still a lot to be done. Spirit Leech, Iceshard, Miasma etc. It appears he’s reacting to you here which is great, you’ve got the initiative here in my view.

Turn 4 - I would have thought boosting the WL Toughness to 4 would have been better seeing as the PG have a good ward anyway?

Well, the only dangerous thing which could happen here was in his magich phase (he have maybe one unit of skinks that could march into 12" range and throw javelins, but they had miasma -bs, and I didnt think he wanted to be so aggressive with them), so I guessed soulquench big version, or the piercing bolts, and solar engine.
And since the WL have ward 2+, the PG is the only viable choice. I actually didnt see the Arcane unforging coming instead..


Turn 5 – Great to see the comet get used and come down with a fantastic result! Well done on structuring the magic phase for maximum damage.

Yeah, I was really lucky with the comet!

Conclusion – a great first battle report mate so big congrats. I think perhaps your opponent didn’t quite know how to proceed against the solid blocks of Lions/PG?

Thanks for the reply! I think I had a lot of luck in this game and all my Winds where great also. And I agree that he maybe didnt know how to proceed against my blocks. And I have no idea how he could have done it myself. I was thinking a little about he maybe could send some suicide squad of skink skirmishers behind my RBTs, to try take some out with theyre poison blowpipes. But I guess its not that easy, since I would have just swift reformed the archers in my turn, and then shot them to pieces with the remaining RBT and the archers.

[Galder]

I was bored some days ago, and sat and played some in excel. Tried to find out what does the different spell really do in different situasions,
which is best on who and so on. And then since I still feel that I havent found my own "path" or list yet, I was trying to really find some more about the swordmasters.. Why are the White Lions always the "supreme choice" instead of them?

Here is some of my thought of our special infantery:

Phoenix Guards
I have always thought that the PG have been the stars in my army, theyre not the hardest hitting,
but theyre brutal though. Its very seldom they have been cut down to the last man or fleed.
I run them 5x5 with FC and razor standard, so theyre more expensive than my White Lion block which I now run 8x3 FC with Banner of the World Dragon.

White Lions
They have always been my nr. 2 unit. They lost a lot in this edition but theyre still strong. They can stand against about all of the big bad guys out there
like demigryphs and Skullcrushers and come out as champions! And theyre lions pelts works great against shooting which is one of the fragile elves
disadvantages. And theyre "Stubborn" ability does that they dont need to be afraid of going wide and shallow, as they dont need "steadfast".

Swordmasters
In last edition I used them a lot in small units 5-7x1 or 7x2 and they did a great job (if they wasnt shot to pieces before they arrived close combat).
They have lost a lot in this edition like the White Lions have. They have now got some protection against BS shooting which not use template.
I think that it is a pretty weak ability to be honest.. (Atleast it should be 6+ against all shooting (parrying, dodge or whatever), but not much to do with it.)


Here is some of my calculations on the specials different combats abilities.
Im sure I have made some errors in the calculations as well (so dont take anything for 100%)
Here is an example of how I have calculated it, so maybe some can see if its correct ot not. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll28 ... ations.jpg
And if somebody want more of the excel sheet just tell me, and they can get it.





Calculations afterthoughts

Phoenix Guards - The PG differentiate themself a lot more than the difference from WL and the SM.
I think the PG does great, but they will really struggle against so though enemies like the Skullcrushers
(they will do about 1w in each CC, and recive about 6,7w back!).
Fortunately have they got so many ranks that they will be steadfast for a long time, and hopefully they will
get some help before its too late.

WL and SM - Ill take they together since theyre not that far away from each other.
Against really though enemies like skullcrushers and chimeras is it very close, the SM just does about 0,25-
0,5w less. And against other though enemies from the WoC like Chaos warriors and Chaos chariot does the
SM from 0,25 to 1,85 wounds more. So its pretty close between them when they face though units.
And when it comes to "not that though guys" is it still very close. The SM have the upper hand by more
attacks (theyre high WS doesnt help them much against the "not that though guys") but the WL even
out the loss of attacks with high strength.
Only against "standard" enemies (WS3, T3, S3 etc) does the SM beat the WL with about 3,25w.


What to choose?
PG is the only that differentiate themself out, and since they have 4+ ward by themself they doesnt need
the banner of the World dragon for magic protection, so theyre perfect for the Razor Standard (since it
help cover some of theyre weakness regard "though guys".)
I think both the WL and the SM should have the banner of the world dragon so they get better protection
against magic. I guess the SM could have the Razor standard, but to be so vurnerable to both shooting and
magic isnt that good idea..
Regard the choice between the WL and SM do we have to look at theyre special abilities also.
The WL is subborn regardless outcome of the battle and have nice saves against all shoting.
And the Swordmasters have a little protection against non template bs shooting..
I think stubborn is great as they dont have to think about steadfast, but I think the battle they can loose
a lot in is against the "though guys" like chimera, skullcrushers etc.
And then I think they will be steadfast anyway as they just need one rank usually.
Ofcourse the SM can be flanked and then loose steadfast, but then I guess they would have done something
wrong. Im more worried about theyre lack of protection against shooting. Thats theyre biggest drawback!


So here comes some "shooting calculations"..


Well, I guess a picture (or a table?) tells more than thousand words...


Then magic compability have to be considered also since its an huge part of the battle.

Miasma - Since the SM is WS6 and the WL is WS5, so will the Miasma spell on average help the
WL more. The SM will about always hit on 3+, but the WL will in some cases hit on 4+ since a
lot of though enemies have WS5 also. One miasma and they will be guaranteed to hit on 3+,
same as the SMs. The Miasma is also defensive since the enemy maybe will have more difficult
hitting back. Since very few enemies have WS6+ so will the enemy as usually always hit both
back on 4+, but the miasma can maybe make them hit on 5+, if theyre WS is reduced to 2..
So the defensive party is the same for both.

Let us say for example they fight against some chaoswarriors.
SM will hit on 3+ and will be hitted back on 4+
WL will hit on 4+ and will be hitted back on 4+
Miasma is thrown, Result -1 and -2 on WS will do that the WL will hit on 3+ and be hitted
back on 4+ (same as the SMs without any spell on them).
On just the highest result -3WS will even the SM benefit from the spell (Both will get the same benefit). They will hit on 3+ and get
hitted back on 5+.
The conclusion is that the Miasma benefit the WL regardless result (if thrown on all of those WS5 out of there), but have to make WS-3
for making benefit to even the SM.
Another thing that is important to consider is to lower I as well, as then many of the "though
guys" wont be able to strike back since theyre removed before they get to strike..

Earthblood and Iceshard
The effect on both unit will be the same.

Wildform
This spell will do a lot of difference based upon what theyre facing.
But the defensive effect +1T is similar for both units
Enemies that have T4: The WL doesnt wound any easier since already wound on 2+, but SM to wound
goes from 3+ to 2+
Enemies that have T5: The WL to wound goes from 3+ to 2+, and SM to wound goes from 4+ to 3+.

So the spell will only benefit the SM (and not the WL) to wound the enemies if they is T4, and the spell will only benefit
the the SM (and not the WL) if they have AS 4+.





The spell effects will vary very much after which opponent they face. Like Wildform when facing typical "though guys"
(ex. Chaos warriors) with T4, AS4+ wont help the WL make more wound at all (they just reduce the wounds they take
from 6,25 to 5). On the other hand the wildform on the swordmasters will make them do massive 50% more wounds on
the same opponent! (from 11,85 to 17,78).
On the other hand is Miasma very good to boost the damage output for the White Lions against all WS5 opponents..


Conclusion
Well, I was hoping to get a clue how to build or change my current army, but I must admit I havent got any further..
LOL, so all this thinking and writing have been wasted (and probably all ure reading..)

I have some new project Im thinking on, actually a completly new list!
I will try make the next post some shorter but I assume it will get the same conclusion

[Ferny]

These are excellent considerations - thanks for posting. I think it backs up what a lot of us reckon on - that actually SM and WL are pretty similar, but the SM are just that much more vulnerable to shooting, and lacking stubborn is a big deal too. PG as you say are differentiated, and the banner allocations you've given are pretty much a must for larger units...

[sparkytrypod]

nice stats so we see a loremaster would benefit the swordmasters more than the WL's

nice and fluffy!

[solith]

It's very helpful to see the stats written out like this! I hadn't realised how much more fragile Swordmasters were to shooting.

Two things however:
Firstly, did you take into account failed fear tests? Admittedly this is a minor thing (and not that simple to calculate - do you include BSB re-rolls? Inspiring Presence?) but it shifts things ever so slightly in favour of the Phoenix Guard.

Secondly are the ranks. Not only does the Phoenix Guard unit have more ranks, but they'll also lose those ranks a lot slower. Again, not always that big of a deal - but it helps you either to remain steadfast or to break your opponents' steadfast. It also gives you a bonus ~1-2 combat res.

[Galder]

Yeah, the swordmaster are unfortunately much more vurnerable to shooting

No, I have not taken fear into consideration. Its not difficult calculate it also, but its a lot more work. And since the comparison is mainly about swordmasters and White Lions so doesnt I think matter much since they have same Leadership. And as u say, what to do about bsb reroll, inspiring presence and so on.. Another thing is ranks, but as I havent calculated the battle resolutions so havent I taken it with either (In my "own" calculations based on my army do I have with ranks, the Loremaster and combat resolution and so on..).
This calculations is just based on theyre hard "stats"

[Galder]

Well, so over to my new "project".

Im not sure if I should write the long version or the short version, so I write both. (just scroll down for the short version)

Long version
I was thinking on making a "new" armylist, since the one I already have is about become about similar to "most" High Elf armies I think.. The problem is ofcourse that about everything is already is made, and I guess the "big builds" is popular for a reason (maybe theyre just the latest branch on the tweaking evolution tree?).
So why start on scratch, why try invent the wheel once again? I have no clue, aaybe some people just want to do it because they can(?).

And since I like the Frost Phoenix will I try make something with it as the centerpiece.
And this time I want to try have an anointed on top of it! (something I have never tried before). I have also though about two more pieces in my jigsaw puzzle.
I have thought about one unmounted frost phoenix, and then an BSB on eagle.
I think the BSB on eagle is cool, and it have some nice advantages like great mobility, and one extra wound and thoughnes. The big drawback is ofcourse that he usually is a canon magnet. But this time will I have so many targets that the cannons will get some hard decisions

So the list so far (very roughly)

Lord
Anointed on Frost Phoenix
Heroes
BSB mounted on eagle
Core
Special
Rare
Frost Phoenix

What I will have to think about now is what roles will the different units have.
Will the Anointed go for hard or soft targets? Do I need units (infantery or cavalary) for slaying "though guys" or "soft" hordes?
The first I think I need to consider now is shall I use mainly infantery or cavalry?
I think the units I already have is more considered as "cavalry", so I hold an button on some infantery. The infantery may have the disadvantages that theyre a lot more slower than my other unit, but I guess I just have to try live with that.

My first core thoughts is something like:
16x Archers with musican
5x Silver Helms, FC (and shield ofcourse)
5x Reavers with musican and bows
5x Reavers with musican and bows
5x Reavers with musican and bows

I guess the archers will work like an mage bunker, and small firebase to clear small chafs.
But Im almost thinking about drop them so I will get nothing in my backlines. Then I dont need to think about having something behind to protect. But we will see how this devolops.

Then Special Choices, here is where much of the "staying and slaying" power will be.
I have three choices, and all have been "discussed" at the top here.
I think PG will be the most robust choice, they who have the greatest staying power,
and also the one which fits best fluffwise. The White Lions is always a great choice,
so I think I can be pretty sure I dont fail miserable if I choose them.
The last choice is ofcourse the Swordmasters, which I feel is a little like the youngest brother in the family, which always is left in the shadow of his big brothers.
I actually think maybe they can have theyre uses in this list. Mainly because like Ive said before, theyre biggest drawback is theyre vurnerability against shooting.
And it looks like this list most vurnerable spot is shooting also, so why not?
I guess a catapult or trebuchet will rather try shoot at one of the phoenixes or my bsb than at my swordmasters. So I will hold a button on them so far.

I will take som steps back to my anointed Lord, to think about his setup.

Anointed setup
What does I want him to do? Shall he be mainly against small unarmoured units (sword of Bloodshed?) or shall he take out big scary stuff. Or maybe he shall just keep himself back and use the reaver bow and the fury of Khain ring (so he can boost his ward even further).
The setup I have thought about is:
Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawn Stone, and the Other Trickster Shard.
The biggest problem with that setup is like I see it, that he doesnt have protection against fire. I could give him Dragonhelm instead of Enchanted Shield (and AS would go from 2+ to 3+), but is it worth it?
I guess the absolute most dangerous regard the lack of fireprotection is spell like "Searing Doom". I big version searing doom will make on average 7 hits, then they will be distributed so the Phoenix will get about 4,67 hits, and the anointed 2,33 hits. The phoenix will then get 1,56 wounds and then about 0,78 wounds after its wards. And the anointed will get 1,94
wounds, then 0,97 wounds after the ward saves. So its not that bad. And remember that if the anointed gets protection against flames, it wont help the phoenix anyway. So I guess its not worth that much to go from 4+ wards to 2+ just against fire(?).
But the biggest threat of all flaming stuff is maybe the Skull Cannon of Khorn, it would be wonderful to have protection against that, but I guess he cant get everything.

BSB setup
His setup is very defensive I think, as he isnt needed for the most offensiv operations.
His job is to be annoying for the opponent, and to do his BSB duty.
Setup:
Lance
Heavy armour and Lion Cloak
Talisman of protection and Charmed shield
Eagle with shredding Talons and Swift Sense

As he is just S4 he should not be charging very hig thoughness opponent or something with very good armour.
Fighting stats:
BSB: WS6, S4 (S6 on charge), I7, A3, Armor save: 3+/1+(against shooting), Always strike first.
Eagle: WS5, S4, T4, I4, A2, Stomp, Always strike first and Armor piercing.
So I think he can do pretty well against a lot of small units.
Here is some few calculations (as always, there may be errors).
Charged by 5 outrides, he will first do 3,26 wounds and then get hit back by 2 outriders (and theyre steeds), so he will take about 0,11 wounds (3+/4+).
Charged by 5 Reavers with spears (here will there be no rerolls to hit and all will hit at same time (just 4 in base). BSB will do 2,11 wounds, and then the reavers (and theyre steeds) do 0,5 wounds back.
Attacked by 15 Skink skirmishers, BSB will first do 4,22 wounds, and the Skirmishers will do about 0,36 wounds back (10 gets to hit in CC).
Then something a lot tougher, a Cold One Chariot, the chariot will first do 4 impact hits, that will be 1,1 wounds after everything. And then they will hit on same time with no rerolls, BSB will do 0,67 wounds on the chariot.
The DE charioters and the cold one will do 1,46 wounds back after that.. (So not an good matcup for the BSB).
And then some shoting, 25 Darkshards on short distance will do just 0,7 wounds (25 hits, 8,33 wounds), 4 RBTs on long range with volley fire will do on average 1 wound, but singel shots will actually do 1,66 Wounds each turn.

Another thing I consider is to change the anointed shield and the BSBs shield.
The "problem" is that the anointed will only get AS 3+ And then the dawn stone doesnt help that much anymore. 10S6 hits will be 1,85 wounds if he have 2+ AS, if he have 3+ then he will get on average 2,9 wounds. And what he gets to lover his armor save is just 2+ ward against the first hit, instead of 4+ (and its just the anointed not the phoenix ofcourse). And I guess smart opponent will just use some ordinary bows first just to get rid of the charmed shield..

The mage
I think I need a mage, but since the point allowance and the thight points will I try to survive with just one lv2. I think thats its pretty brutal with just one level (if u dont have a bunch of bound spells or something like that). So I think my magic phases will suck..
The spell selection will be so small and the opponent can choose which to dispell, as long as u dont get so small winds that u can throw all the dices on one of the spells.
One of the problem with the spell selection is that in many occasions just one spell can be cast or is reasonable to cast, so then its get pretty boring and one dimensional.
Let us say that the mage gets one damage spell of some kind and one augment.. In the first turn he is out of range and cannot use the magic missile spell. For the first can it happen that there is no point use the hex as it maybe only is good in CC. For the second what shall the mage use if the dices will be big like 11-6? shall he take the risk of throw 5 dice at a minor hex spell at first turn? Or what about medium like 7-4? I guess the best winds will be like 4-2 or something low like that. But I cant imagine it will work good.
I think maybe I can choose some "strategies", one of them is trying to get a "huge" spell which is worth a miscast. And then just throw all the dices which are possible on that spell each turn, and hope for IF (and a not too bad misscast). The thing here is that the spell have to be worth to risk the mage sfor. Another "stragety" is relying on something like lore attribute (since usually one of the spell will come through (usually the other of what u wished comes through). For example Shadow could maybe be interesting. Like if my BSB should be stuck in something with high armour saves, and then be threathened by other big units nearby can I sacriface the mage and let him get the bsb position instead. Another thing which could be pretty cool is when the opponent is very proud of himself because he have succesfull went around and attacked the bunker, then the mage swap place with the BSB, and kill his puny scouts or fast cavalry.
The lifes lore attribute is pretty nice also, but have limited reach.
I also think the signature spell is a must to think about since I just get two spells .
Signature spells like heaven could be an suitable lore, since Im guaranteed Iceshard Blizzard (which can be used any time in the game) and it have three spells that can hurt my opponents and can be thrown in a lot of situasions. High Magic can be nice also, but the spell selection isnt that great.. The setup for the mage should be atleast dispell scroll, and Im considering Khaines ring of fury also, so I can get some more spells to choose between if I get enough power dices.
I still wonder about what lore who suits me best.. But for so long Ill keep a thumb on:
Lv2 with dispell scroll and khaines ring of fury.

I have now rare selection left.
The Frost phoenix is one of the core element, so thats already in.
I think either 3x RBT or 2RBT and one eagle.
(I have played a long time without my eagles now, and I miss them.
I also think its important to have a lot of chafs in this list since it will be important
to manage to set up those fight I wants. Another thing is that I want alot of stuff ready to advance against the enemies warmachines.)

So the list so far: (and short Version)

-Annointed of Asuryan
General; Heavy Armour
Enchanted Shield, Dawn Stone, The Other Tricksters Shard, Ogre Blade
Frostheart Phoenix

-Mage
Magic Level 2; Lore of
Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury

-Noble
Lance; Heavy Armour; Lion Cloak; Battle Standard
Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield
Great Eagle
Shredding Talons; Swift Sense

-16 Archers, musican
-5 Silver Helms, FC, with shields
-5 Ellyrian Reavers, musican and bows
-5 Ellyrian Reavers, musican and bows
-5 Ellyrian Reavers, musican and bows
-26 Swordmasters of Hoeth, FC banner of the world dragon
-x3 RBT
-Great Eagle
-Frostheart Phoenix


So I need suggestions and inputs!
Like my lore choice is totally blank. I could even drop one RBT and the eagle to get another lv2. Another thing is that I could drop my archers and RBTso I have nothing back, and then instead taken something more mobile (maybe some more helms and a chariot or some other troops).

[Galder]

I have thought some more on my list, and want to try to play with two level 2, high magic (the other options is RBTs).
They will start with the swordmasters to boost theyre ward in early the early turns so theyre not getting shooted to pieces.
I guess they will manage to get a couple of spell out (since they also have the ring of fury) so the ward will be 4+ against most shooting. (theyre ability and ironcurse icon helps them).
I will have a small archer bunker which is going to be straight behind the SM, with smaller frontage where they can stay safe when CC start (and should they happen to get in big battle I guess its not the end of the world).
What I just have thought some more about is the Anointed setup, more specific his weapon. The problem with him is that he have so few attacks, so I need to invest in some expensive magical weapon so he can do some harm. The four weapon I have looked on is:
Blade of Leaping Gold (70p), Ogre Blade (40p), Obsidian Blade (50p) and Giant Blade (60p).
Another ok combo I havent looked at is Sword of Strife and potion of strength, but since its just one use only (and I always forget to declare when to use it , I havent taken looked any closer at it).

Im as normal not 100% sure that my calculations is correct, but I guess they should be fine.

Some thoughts:
Blade of leaping gold isnt that much "better or worse" than the Ogre Blade, theyre just a little different versus different matchups.
The blade of leaping gold is ofcourse better vs the "standard not though infantery" (3,56w vs 2,22w), but the Ogre Blade is some better against stuff like Chaos chariot (1,48w vs 1,33)
and Chaos warriors (1,85w vs. 1,78w).
But the blade of leaping gold is actually a slightly better against very heavy armored units like skullcrushers (1,19w vs 1,11w).
The price for the Blade of leaping gold is 75% higher than the Ogre blade, so because of that I would have choosen the Ogre Blade (if my meta wasnt full of just low T and AS armies).
The most shocking thing was the Obsidian Blade , which was clearly the worst weapon against absolutely all the enemies except the skullcrushers..
The big problem with the Obsidian blade is that its hard to do a lot of wounds when u have only 3 attacks with S4.. So I guess the blade may work in other armies where it can be carried of some stronger guys than our weak elves.




(It would ofcourse been nice if someone could spot some "errors" in my calculations, or confirm them).


So the list looks like this now:

Draft v2.
Annointed of Asuryan
General; Heavy Armour
Enchanted Shield
Dawn Stone
Giant Blade
Potion of Foolhardiness
- Frostheart Phoenix

Mage
Magic Level 2; Lore of High Magic
Khaine's Ring of Fury
Dispel Scroll

Mage
Magic Level 2; Lore of High Magic
Ironcurse Icon
Channeling Staff

Noble
Lance; Heavy Armour; Lion Cloak; Battle Standard
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
-Great Eagle
Shredding Talons; Swift Sense

14 Archers
Longbow; Musician, champ

5 Silver Helms, FC
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Ithilmar Barding

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bow (swap); Light Armour; Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bow (swap); Light Armour; Musician

5 Ellyrian Reavers
Bow (swap); Light Armour; Musician

27 Swordmasters of Hoeth, FC
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour;
Banner of the World Dragon

Frostheart Phoenix

Great Eagle



Hope to get to test it out within a couple of days (Have been working a couple of weeks so havent got the time yet)

Some inputs?

[Prince Luficer]

What is the plan with your high mages? To have them go with the sword masters to boost their ward save?
Also the silver helms unit? How big is it supposed to be? Right now it says 4...

[Galder]

Well, the plan with the mages was having an "mobile" magic missile platform, with soul quench in bound spell and one of the mages is gonna take it as signature.
I think High Magic maybe can work in my list (with healing on my multiwounds units, Hand is nice if I meet opponent with a lot of WS3 units (since my SM, and Phoenixes is WS6)).
I guess Walk can be pretty handy to have with so many solo models, and arcane unforging is nice to use to draw scrolls.
The plan is to have them, with the SM in the first turns, and then just take them back into the bunker with the archers.
One of theyre main tasks is to clear chafs and boost ward saves (but all this is just loose plans, I need a couple of games to see if it works).
Ah , they should be 5 (the champ had his own line and I just deleted him), Ill change it asap

[Prince Luficer]

Ok. Let me now how it works out I recently played in a tournament with a high magic list and I often wished I had used another lore. It's a great lore to prevent the opponent from getting victory points from you. It is not very good at earning you victory points though, which was a major problem.

The list looks solid! A couple of thoughts:
The ellyrian reavers have more use of champions than musicians. If you place them in front of an enemy unit as in the picture you'll usually be able to reuse the unit as a re director later.


Also. White lions are usually a better choice for large units than swordmasters unless you're playing in a comped setting or have something very specific in mind.

I apologize for my horrific paint illustration...

[Galder]

Thanks for the advices.
I havent actually heard or thought about the reaver champ tricks. I guess the point is that you will only loose ure champ, and then I guess u will loose on battle resolution, since the other have wound, charge, maybe banner and rank and so on. Then they flee, and then u just need some luck to escape from the pursuer
Btw. Ure painting was great (very informative).
Yeah, the WL is maybe better than the SM, but one of the reason I use them is that about nobody else does .
And I think theyre main weakness is vs shooting. and I have so many targets for shooting now that I guess they just wont be prioritized to shoot against.
I have had just two battles with them so far, and nobody have tried shoot at them. And I have had my high mages with them also, so they have had usually 4+ ward (ironcurse and two spell) against WM, and then same against archers (deflects shots and two spells). I think I will have 3-4 battles without any changes before I will have one evaluation

[Galder]

Back to the roots..

[Prince Luficer]

Yup. You get a higher chance to be able to use the redirector again later. Or just save some point
Good luck with your games!

[Galder]

But remember if they flee without getting caught. U cant do cant do anything else than reform them if they successfully rallies in ure turn.
(Since they fled from combat and didnt use feigned flight...)

[Prince Luficer]

That's right. But they can still be of value later in the game