Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

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Ferny
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#61 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: 4. Units fighting one on one in the frontal assault is just one of the many situation that can happen. Flank/rear attacks are preferable. If you cannot do it that does not matter others cannot either. It may not be easy, it is often difficult but not impossible.
Depends on the matchup, but against good players this is very hard to achieve with M5 infantry and should not be relied upon. See question below.
I've just got back from a 6 game 2-day tourney with my MSU list. I did pretty badly (OK, very badly!) - in a couple of cases I felt my list struggled to have any answers to theirs (I'll do a quick write up in my blog) but in the others I'm simply not as skilled a player as I'd like to be. But I don't want that to influence the point I'm about to make.

I think if you have localised shooting and/or magic superiority then it is or ought to be possible. I had one game vs dark elves yesterday - they had 4xrbt and a unit of 20xbows and shadow magic (so no MMs etc). I neutralised two RBTs and due to terrain, units etc the other two only had poor shots available, and the xbows were quite badly misdeployed IMO. I'd already shot/magicked off his warlocks. In my corner I had reaver noble, 10 sisters, 16 archers (though they were on combat duty), 2 RBTs and a loremaster. He had c.35 corsairs 2hw deployed deep, 22 blackguard deployed wide, a hydra, a chariot (the latter didn't enter this equation - I think it was misused) and a peg hero (who should have been tied up but 'got lucky'/poor BSB positioning for me and caused problems in my backfield but didn't come into this).

Now maybe the situation arose because I out-deployed him or maybe he was just confident in his troops, but I kind of think he had to advance into me under these circumstances (if not I'd simply surround him). Under these, very specific, conditions it wasn't too hard to set up flanking manoeuvres with MSU where you have a host of units to angle in mutual support. I had a similar scenario vs a high elf opponent. Now as it turns out he broke out of my 'trap' quite easily with mindrazor, so maybe he didn't feel too threatened by my manoeuvres, but in principle if even I can set up scenarioes where you've got the mutual supports going on it needn't be that out of reach.

Curu, this isn't a dig but a curious question. Have you ever played high elves MSU, either as the player or vs an opponent? I know you can see match ups like chess matches in your head and I'm not doubting your skill to theory it out (and to deliver on that theory in game), I'm just curious what direct XP you have of it? And relatedly, have you played as/against it much with other books? I admit that I thought it looked difficult and not inherently strong before I started playing it (and I'll elaborate on some more weaknesses I encountered today in my blog), but once I started actually playing it it was very cool finding the mechanics which make it tick.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#62 Post by Curu Olannon »

I think if you have localised shooting and/or magic superiority then it is or ought to be possible.
Correctamundo! How to establish this though? The basic premise is that you are supposed to get a ranged advantage and force your opponent to advance. The Dark Elf list you describe is also a weird mix, Black Guard and Corsairs do not mix well with Darkshards. The latter need open space and fast, supporting elements such as more warlocks/shades/dark riders/peg heroes. In fact I think neither Black Guard nor Corsairs are worth taking at all, but that`s another story. From your description of the DE game, his warlocks and 2 RBT going down that quickly, it certainly looks like a grave mistake on his part. 4++ is nice, but at the end of the day they`re T3 so even some arrows will quickly hurt them, as will MMs if they don`t have MR.

To frame the debate more specifically: if the Dark Elf player had ditched his combat blocks for more shades, warlocks and dark riders, would he still have had to advance? This is a question I always ask myself when I make a list: if I have shooting power, is it enough to force strong lists to advance on me? If I don`t, does the list feature enough pushing power to overcome a strong defendor? This is the main reason why I think my PG+WL+Bus attempt is inherently flawed, it has neither enough shooting power to force opponents to advance nor enough pushing power to win vs a strong defendor.

Depending on your definition, I have played a few games where no units were above ~10-15 models, yes. Vulnerability to psychology necessitates a centrally deployed BSB and a tight army. In a meta where shooting and MMs are coming back in a big way, panic tests are all over the place and LD8 is not something worth putting your money into. I`ve also tried cavalry versions, who fare slightly better, but they are surprisingly cumbersome to move around. The combined footprint of many units in addition to the 1" rule just negates a lot of your otherwise flexible movement.

I don`t think I`ve ever faced HE msu. I rarely play mirror matchups as I find them boring and I don`t have that many games with other fractions. Besides, nobody I know play HE msu. The armies I have face/regularly do face with MSU builds are Empire, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Daemons, Ogres, Wood Elves and Warriors. I don`t think MSU is good for Empire (unless you by msu mean with blocks of demis aside from all other units) nor Ogres (too LD-dependent), and for all the others the common factor here is that their lists are based on superior ranged capabilities. Dark Elves and Lizardmen are just brutal in this area, whereas Daemons are surprisingly good at MSU: so hard to take points from! Wood Elves pretty much have to play MSU and Warriors is a special case where MSU is more a necessity because of their strong elements (basically chariots, flyers, crushers) rather than small blocks. I don`t know if it would even qualify as MSU.

The inherent problem of HE MSU is the lack of ranged superiority. As has been commented on previously, RBTs en masse aren`t that effective with this build, which is crucial to a HE list wanting to obtain ranged superiority. The games I`ve played with MSU have mostly been Light (for infantry, old book though) and Heavens (cavalry + monsters), which partly make up for this but it`s not enough. Sure it works wonders when you face weak lists like Dwarfs not castling up in a corner, blocks moving out towards you without support etc, but this is the nature of High Elf elites: in a straight-up fight where they can utilize multiple attack angles, I don`t think a lot of units in Warhammer can stand up to them (regardless if it`s SM, WL or PG pretty much).

For a quick scenario, consider the following Dwarf List:

Runesmith, superscroll
BSB, 5++ vs missiles
Runesmith, scroll, general
Master Engineer

Block of Longbeards
Fill core with xbows
Block of Hammerers with superstubborn banner
Block of Irondrakes with vanguard banner

2 cannons
1-2 gyros
1 Organ gun

I don`t think this army even has to consider your deployment at all. It can just build a castle, like this for example:

Image

So my question is, facing this amount of shooting how on earth are you going to get multiple arcs? Irondrakes are a true nightmare for MSU, with quick-to-fire they can move around with impunity and will, on average, kill a handful of Elves each shooting round. With WS5 S4, T4 4+ stubborn they are no joke in combat either. Then we have the Cannons eliminating RBTs and Organ gun @BS5, in hard cover (entrenchment thank you very much). Against this list, you HAVE to push. If, by some chance, you get too many elites too close for comfort, the Dwarfs can send out their characters on sacrificial duty. The new Hammerers with 2A per model are also brutal for us.

Chaos Dwarfs are slightly better, though the Iron Daemon is a tough nut to crack (unless you can lock it down with a cavunit), but apart from this a lot of gunlines are the same. OnG (see Dark Reaper`s most recent report in our team blog for example), Empire, Dark Elves, even Wood Elves can play this same game.

As for aggressive lists, we have WoC, DoC-nurgle with flies and beasts, Star Dragon HE, cavstar HE, VC Hexwraith-spam and Gutstar, to name but a few. These lists all sport decent chaff and powerful magic support (with the exception of WoC unless their DP is tooled up). I have yet to see a single game I believe where MSU face these, yet I see them all over the place, regardless of comp being played (basically you take a comped version and "uncomp" it if the tourney allows it. Case in question, I saw a 2k game yesterday with 18 beasts of nurgle. Fun.).

Anyway, we`re getting a bit off topic so I`ll continue this discussion on your blog instead ;)
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#63 Post by Ferny »

OK, two new match ups which I didn't think I had the tools to handle. One I still don't, the other I think there might be a way around it and I just played badly.

List 1.
Star Dragon.
I don't know how he was kitted out, it never came up.
Frost Pheonix.
10x archers, 20xseaguard (x2),
10x swordmasters (x2)
25 WL w/BotWD
Lv2 High, scroll
BSB, Caledor Armour

I played 6 games: day 1 was dark elves x2 and nurgle deamons. day 2 was 3x high elves. Other than the deamon list, this was the only one I didn't face RBTs with, which made a nice change.

I got points for both units of swordmasters and the archers. I should have assassinated both the Lv2 and the BSB but both got very lucky lots of times (I know, I know, you can't blame luck, but if you throw enough muck you expect some of it to stick...and I threw a lot of much for not even negligible gain!). Both were on 1 W and the BSB made 3 6++ ward saves on his final wound over the course of the battle. Anyway, enough rant :lol: :P .

I started the game with relatively little idea of how to play it, which is never good. I'd just faced a single frosty in a more 'conventional' list in the previous game and I was able to more or less control it's threat range, although it also controlled mine! But two big, nasty flyers are a nightmare. I was fortunate that he ran them next to each other. After the battle he said it was because he always sent them in together (quite right in a lot of scenarios), but he could have much wider threat arcs and still charge the same unit if he moved them apart.

Due to this placement I was able to keep my units largely out of arc for a couple of turns, but once he split them up I couldn't achieve this anymore. I champ-blocked the dragon, but other than on lions when the frosty ate thunderstomped my unit I lost steadfast (and lost CR bad).

I think if I were *just* facing the two flyers I could have dealt with them. Equally, if I were *just* facing the support troops (though core elf infantry murders MSU GW elites, but I had the tools). But I couldn't cover myself against the flyers and take out the infantry at the same time. All game I felt it was just an excercise in avoiding being mopped up and seeing if I could drag out the 20-0 for 6 turns, with my only real chance at some points coming from assassinations or lucky single bolts (which never were). In the end I only lost 14-6 (not sure how - felt a lot worse!), but this was only because the game played slowly. I don't doubt he would have finished me off given more turns.

I don't like to or want to blame the result on match-up, but I honestly felt like I didn't have the tools in the toolbox to pose any real threats to anything without being picked apart by the rest! If they were two monsters without flying, or one flying monster only, or even an all core elf list I have tools I think - but this just felt brutal. I don't think a batrep will help (and I know I can't write any atm) as I don't think he played them optimally, it was only a few turns, and really it will just show that I was a headless chicken. But I'd love any ideas on simply: 1) what tools might threaten his list and 2) how I might deploy and in principle what tactic I ought to be doing (castling??? Spreading wide?) I did do well to keep my BSB and Ld 10 bubble quite tight for all the terror and steadfast breaktests I'd be taking if that's some consolation...

I tried searing doom a couple of times but no joy. Spirit leach too but he rolled higher. Boosted shems - nothing. Debuffs for combat, but don't affect thunderstomp. Really was tough!

List 2: Light council
WL bunker, 5-wide, BotWD, FC
Lv4 light, book (2nd rank)
Lv1 (scroll?)(1st rank)
Loremaster (1st rank)
BSB (lothern!!), Ld 10 banner (2nd rank)
handmaiden with reaver/PoS (2nd rank)

3x reavers spears
2x archers FC
3x RBT

Famous last words, said at the start of the game: "I don't think light council is as much of a threat against MSU as vs big, tough targets". Quote me on that if I ever get cocky at this game.

He vanguarded his reavers well and got first turn. I didn't want to failed-charge the reavers as I needed to get upfield fast so my heavy cavalry went right into their faces (3 units). My 4th tempted a frosty to charge it on 10 but I'd get the RBT T2 if not. His reavers charged me and then tanked me for most of the game, and his frosty of course made it and got into the backfield.

This leaves me with infantry. I deployed a unit of lions 10-wide to shelter other infantry behind them. T1 he wipes out my lions shield with shooting and magic. T2 he gets banishment off on my loremaster bunker. Rolled 2D6 S6 hits. Rolled 10. Then 10 wounds. Unit destroyed. Then he shot and killed my loremaster. Turn 3 he decimated the swordmasters who are now retreating to lose range and get behind a hill or any sort of cover.

Both units of sisters were outgunned and lacked cover so spent the game conserving points. My archers were miasmaed T1 which I'm pleased about as it helped make me more decisive - rather than suffer a poor round of shooting I marched them forward 10 and used them as a combat block - probably the men of the match, and that's really saying something given their relative lack of success (and eventual demise)!

In the end I did get 3/3 RBTs and 3/3 Reavers, and some of my army was still alive because I managed to hide it.

I know there are things I did wrong which made this outcome worse, but tactically I wonder whether I ought to have taken a different approach? Maybe castled in a corner and forced his archers to advance towards me? Maybe used my cavalry as a flesh wall instead or as well as lions? I was outgunned in shooting, outgunned in magic, (stupidly - this shouldn't have happened, or not so badly anyway) out cavalryed and I was certainly out bunkered. Other than the points I got it really was hard in this game to get more. I kind of feel that the castling approach might be best. If I used a forest as cover and deployed refused flank maybe I could put some threat zones down against the frosty and mitigate his shooting, though I'm still vulnerable to MMs galore. I feel I'm being overly influenced by the 1-turn banishment game-changer, but even without that it did feel that he could pick a unit to delete each turn and do it without me responding with any sort of threat.

Incidentally, he said while it's a pretty good list, he found it quite boring because it's essentially an elven gunline. This was the one game I finished all weekend (or T5, I lost track - I was just running away anyway) - in part because my movement stuck on his cav and he simply didn't move all game except to get into range.
Last edited by Ferny on Sun May 25, 2014 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#64 Post by Ferny »

Curu - great response - happy to continue the discussion but best not here. Would it be possible for you to move these last two posts over to my blog using your mod-fu powers? You're right, they're definitely way off topic, but I think merit more discussion :D.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#65 Post by Curu Olannon »

SD matchup: While my thoughts on viable SD lists clearly do not match this one`s, the list is still bad for you based on the 2 flyers alone. While Searing Doom can be a threat here, if he stops it you`re usually out of options as both Shem`s and SL rely on luck to do pretty much anything. The rest of his list is surprisingly strong against yours: due to the advancing monsters which you HAVE to respect, the infantry behind can often get favourable positions (which I`m betting you experienced on multiple occasions) as trying to move against them as you would if the flyers weren`t there is impossible. The matchup is a good, hard -2 for you (expect to lose 5-15 or worse), so 6-14 isn`t that bad. I think his lack of ranged firepower saved you a bit here as 4 RBTs on top of this would be just brutal. I think any SD matchup is -2 for you, assuming the birdie goes along.

Coven matchup; I assume you mean Light and not Life on the L4? Banishment is a real killer on your infantry. I am surprised you didn`t see this from the get-go as a quick exercise of Mathhammer shows that a successful cast of Banishment is quite likely to pretty much reduce a unit to a not-even-a-threat-level of significance. Also M10 Lions can really mess with carefully laid plans and Speed of Light + Pha`s give him a huge edge in combat, that`s not even considering the Loremaster spells! The list itself is a variation of a strong, tried and tested HE approach that I`ve written about previously so I`m not surprised you ran into big problems here.

In the end I think this approach is bound to run into too many -2 matchups late in a tournament, which is the main reason why I don`t believe the approach is viable. I fail to see any good, or even neutral, matchups among the typical strong builds that exist out there. Sure the massive amount of HE elites potentially hitting from multiple angles at once can decimate any unit, and while you will steamroll poor players once you meet the tougher list you`ll find yourself awkwardly trying to counter big griblies (HE SD, WoC monsters, DE pegs) without necessary board control or you are simply outshot and unable to properly push (previously mentioned CD/DW/OK/WE and so on, add HE to the list ;) ).

What is your intended approach moving forwards now? Also, what was your final placement? :)
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#66 Post by Curu Olannon »

Moved posts from SM/WL debate.
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Ferny
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Re: Swordmasters / White Lions Debate

#67 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:
I think if you have localised shooting and/or magic superiority then it is or ought to be possible.
Correctamundo! How to establish this though? The basic premise is that you are supposed to get a ranged advantage and force your opponent to advance.
How to establish localised high elf MSU shooting superiority:
Step 1:
MSU should be outdropping your opponent. One problem is that none of our drops are 40pt dogs and the whole army has to work together, so it's not quite as simple as that to outdeploy them. But with vanguarding reavers, central flying eagle, likely flanking cavalry you can probably decide whether to go for the long line or the weighted flank once you've seen where your opponents key stuff is going down. Following Swordmaster's lead from his batreps, often the long line is the way forward, with cavalry on the flanks, and you envelop your opponent. But for shooting superiority I think you need a weighted flank.

Step 2:
This isn't always possible, but ideally you want to have a forest somewhere near your DZ, ideally not too centrally. Say the wood is on the left, this will provide soft cover from shots from the right. It needn't be a wood, it could be any sufficiently large bit of cover providing scenery, but I'll focus on woods. (You look for woods more with MSU because it's so hard to break steadfast so you need every trick you can pull). You need there to be a target on the left of the wood for you to select as your target to destroy you can encourage this through your drops. You also need their shooting to be split between left and right - again - outdropping them is the key.

Step 3:
Deploy your shorter range shooters left of the woods (sisters, archers) and RBTs wherever they get good angles - the joy of this is that it could be either side as the woods in question are on our side of the table (e.g. 12-24" from our table edge). You can possibly do the same with woods on their side but you wouldn't get the early cover and I haven't tried this yet.

Step 4:
Your 'weak' right flank needs to put enough pressure on that it can't be ignored. Cavalry is ideal for this, and can also get back into the fight if they survive.

Step 5:
Meanwhile, your strong left advances into the wood (lions - stubborn, don't mind DT etc, and will break steadfast of opponents if they engage) and the lee of the woods. You apply shooting and magic pressure to your target unit(s) and force them to either advance and engage, hold and be surrounded (and shot at) or retreat and delay. This works best against infantry. It needn't be completely bereft of shooting, but its shooting does need to be diluted elsewhere so that we have local superiority.

Step 6:
Capitalise. If they advance into your trap, great. If not, keep pushing. You'll probably lose your weak flank and they'll be bringing their more central support elements round, so you need to keep some troops covering or anchoring this approach. These troops might be from the left or right - obviously there's a spectrum and there'll be troops all along it from the drop period where we're still bluffing with deployment. So you need to try to wrap up the flank as quickly as possible, but without being careless and not actually getting the favourable match-ups needed to win the combat.

That's been my experience of it anyway, or at any rate what I've attempted to achieve with mixed levels of success. Swordmaster or Nicene or other MSU players might have better, more elaborate or simply better mapped out real life examples, but that would be the principle. One of the nice things about it is that, while it's something that any list can do, MSU stands a greater chance of being able to influence deployment to achieve it. It isn't foolproof. It does require some form of favourable scenery. It does require your opponent to react to your deployment or else deploy in a manner which suits us by happy chance. And it does require a certain type of target (possibly limited to infantry?). But in so far as it is a tactic, that's my take on it.
Curu Olannon wrote: The Dark Elf list you describe is also a weird mix, Black Guard and Corsairs do not mix well with Darkshards. The latter need open space and fast, supporting elements such as more warlocks/shades/dark riders/peg heroes. In fact I think neither Black Guard nor Corsairs are worth taking at all, but that`s another story. From your description of the DE game, his warlocks and 2 RBT going down that quickly, it certainly looks like a grave mistake on his part. 4++ is nice, but at the end of the day they`re T3 so even some arrows will quickly hurt them, as will MMs if they don`t have MR.
So ordinarily I'd agree that these two units don't cut it next to executioners and witches respectively (though I know dark reaper I think it was didn't rate this combo either?)...but actually for a shadow sorceress it's pretty oldskool. Corsairs are more reliable compared to witches (less killy, but more armour and no frenzy) and still come with 2A base and can go deep for steadfast/removal. And Black Guard have 2A and are also pretty nice troops (true ASF, stubborn if they need it - still fragile - and I think they might have WS and I 6 too?). If the thing they're missing, in both cases, is Strength, then shadow is the lore for you. With steadfast and stubborn both units are reasonably resiliant (certainly for DE) so if you don't get the magic you need then you can tank it out for a turn. So in this respect I disagree that they're not worth taking - in the context of shadow. Shadow is also really good for shooting. He has 4RBTs and the xbows capitalise on this. I really like repeater xbows (having faced them a lot in 7th) and feel they offer good support to anything, in the same way that despite having cavalry options in core now, most balanced high elf lists still take archers. I don't know the DE book well enough to comment on their optimal-ness, but they're certainly useful IMO.

I think he may have used his warlocks too much like normal cavalry (in one case fast, in one case heavier) rather than as mobile wizards. This is a nice feature of them - they have these options too. However, given that he didn't have dark riders (or cold one riders) this did make them more throwaway in their use than they normally would be as warlocks. I was quite pleased with having dealt with them and I think I did a good job of it, but looking back at the list they maybe didn't quite fit the role.
To frame the debate more specifically: if the Dark Elf player had ditched his combat blocks for more shades, warlocks and dark riders, would he still have had to advance? This is a question I always ask myself when I make a list: if I have shooting power, is it enough to force strong lists to advance on me? If I don`t, does the list feature enough pushing power to overcome a strong defendor? This is the main reason why I think my PG+WL+Bus attempt is inherently flawed, it has neither enough shooting power to force opponents to advance nor enough pushing power to win vs a strong defendor.
That's a good principle of list building and now that I've moved away from my lovely WL:PG blocks I'm certainly finding this out too.

To a certain extent I think the answer is yes, as I fought another DE list which is much more as you describe. I kept the RBTs and shades busy with my cavalry (which I feel is euphemistic - it was more like the Somme!, which were enough of an immediate and existential threat to require dealing with, but were robust enough to take a while to do so. Meanwhile my shooting and magic was taking out or whittling down his witches, dark riders and where possible warlocks. His list featured more witches than dark riders (i.e. more push, less evade), but it did feel like there was a tight balance of power between my heavy cav/his shooting and my shooting and infantry/his killy stuff.

Against the lightstar I was outgunned, no doubt about it, but here I wasn't, despite the 4xRBTs and 2x10 shades. This isn't because of my vast shooting, but because I have 4xheavy cav, 2x vanguard cav and an eagle which can all put pressure on shooters. I'm actually thinking about switching a unit of DPs for an eagle noble (either lion cloack, charmed, golden, starlance or 4++ and lance I think) to help get to the backline without having to get past blockers, and to squeeze the starlance back in where it isn't allowed on DP champs. I know he's a big target, but he's fast and semi-warded and good vs small arms fire, so I think he could work. But that's another story... 8)

The inherent problem of HE MSU is the lack of ranged superiority. As has been commented on previously, RBTs en masse aren`t that effective with this build, which is crucial to a HE list wanting to obtain ranged superiority. The games I`ve played with MSU have mostly been Light (for infantry, old book though) and Heavens (cavalry + monsters), which partly make up for this but it`s not enough. Sure it works wonders when you face weak lists like Dwarfs not castling up in a corner, blocks moving out towards you without support etc, but this is the nature of High Elf elites: in a straight-up fight where they can utilize multiple attack angles, I don`t think a lot of units in Warhammer can stand up to them (regardless if it`s SM, WL or PG pretty much).
Depending on context you don't just achieve ranged superiority with shooting/RBTs but with threat range from cavalry (or in your case monsters too). The combination of shooting and MSU cavalry has a surprisingly long threat range - I've had several games where my elite infantry really hasn't had to do much (though had I been more active with it I might have tried to pull off Swordmaster's vaunted signature multi-charges to get bigger wins).

It doesn't apply all the time - tough enough flying monsters are one example. RBTs are a funny one - cavalry can keep them occupied, but it costs a lot of points, including units which you might need as redirectors or flank chargers, and you don't get many points in return...this is a problem I find with MSU high elves -they bleed points at every turn, but thy need to make that blood count - the win depends on this ratio. This is the same with any army, but MSU I find bleeds at a relatively constant rate from the start whereas blockier armies will suffer acute losses intermittently. Even my game against light-council showed a lack of range: with my cavalry (necessarily - my user error) tied up his 30" core archers and RBTs just lit me up - this is an example where sisters just don't cut it. That said, my previous game was against a HE player who thought he had shooting superiority over me but he deployed too far back/defensively and this allowed me to take advantage of lines of cover and troop movements to really mitigate (even reverse) that superiority. (He also lost his reavers too early with a fairly reckless move into the open, I think hoping for first turn?, which certainly helped in not slowing me down, like when the warlocks went down early).
For a quick scenario, consider the following Dwarf List:

Runesmith, superscroll
BSB, 5++ vs missiles
Runesmith, scroll, general
Master Engineer

Block of Longbeards
Fill core with xbows
Block of Hammerers with superstubborn banner
Block of Irondrakes with vanguard banner

2 cannons
1-2 gyros
1 Organ gun

I don`t think this army even has to consider your deployment at all. It can just build a castle, like this for example:

Image

So my question is, facing this amount of shooting how on earth are you going to get multiple arcs? Irondrakes are a true nightmare for MSU, with quick-to-fire they can move around with impunity and will, on average, kill a handful of Elves each shooting round. With WS5 S4, T4 4+ stubborn they are no joke in combat either. Then we have the Cannons eliminating RBTs and Organ gun @BS5, in hard cover (entrenchment thank you very much). Against this list, you HAVE to push. If, by some chance, you get too many elites too close for comfort, the Dwarfs can send out their characters on sacrificial duty. The new Hammerers with 2A per model are also brutal for us.

Chaos Dwarfs are slightly better, though the Iron Daemon is a tough nut to crack (unless you can lock it down with a cavunit), but apart from this a lot of gunlines are the same. OnG (see Dark Reaper`s most recent report in our team blog for example), Empire, Dark Elves, even Wood Elves can play this same game.
Thankfully I haven't faced that list with MSU yet. I don't think it would be any fun at all, but then I hate that sort of list under any circumstances, even with my 'normal' list. I don't have a difinitive answer to it, but here would be my best bets, depending on the dwarf player.

Gyros can be dealt with by shooting, magic and cavalry bait/threat ranges if they advance. If they don't then they don't pose ranged threat (just a threat range). Now the rest depends on ranges of stuff, but here's my thoughts. One option is to rush him and hope for the best. This rewards him for castling with easy points. But I find games where you just sit back and give each other evils so incomprehensibly unrewarding that I might do this. That is why I don't like playing these armies. Incidentally, I've seen you post elsewhere that dwarfs are a good match up for us - a tactica sir - please produce a tactica! But if I were to sit back...

Well if I don't advance towards him (and in fact counter-castle and hope to just lose the odd dude to cannonballs, given the generally short range artillery, then he would be forced to either settle for a small win or advance with irondrakes, possibly vanguarding. If he moves up solo then he's unsupported, if he moves up en-masse then there's scope for splitting. Also, the obvious thought is Dragon Princes, though that's about as far as i get with it. I don't have a great answer to it - but then I don't like it with my usual list either.
As for aggressive lists, we have WoC, DoC-nurgle with flies and beasts, Star Dragon HE, cavstar HE, VC Hexwraith-spam and Gutstar, to name but a few. These lists all sport decent chaff and powerful magic support (with the exception of WoC unless their DP is tooled up). I have yet to see a single game I believe where MSU face these, yet I see them all over the place, regardless of comp being played (basically you take a comped version and "uncomp" it if the tourney allows it. Case in question, I saw a 2k game yesterday with 18 beasts of nurgle. Fun.).

Anyway, we`re getting a bit off topic so I`ll continue this discussion on your blog instead ;)
Daemon nurgle lists I don't mind too much I think. Small units of beasts I can pick off with shooting. Big units of anything nurgle I'd probably try to flee/redirect/chaff. Flies can be killed in combat if they move up too fast/take the bait and charge me. Might be hard to get a lot of points from them, and I'm not sure I can keep everything at bay for 6 turns, but shooting is key. Also, limited return fire is lovely, and I can spread out my deployment and envelope. Points might be available from tzeench stuff and cannons.

Hexwraith spam I think I'd struggle with - probably bunker in a corner and give limited landing options. Cavstar I'd want to redirect the question is how much shooting/magic support it gets to clear my chaff. Also, I can feed it units and champion challenge. I even pulled a dirty white lion conga once with a champ challenge (but karma saw me doom and darknessed!). Meanwhile I'd try to pick up points elsewhere. Same with the gutstar. In fact, same with any star. The problem ones are where they're supported with shooting/MM or where they fly. I'm hoping Swordmaster will give me some inspiration for how to fight Chimera/chariot spam if I ever face it, and star dragon+frosty in light of today.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#68 Post by Curu Olannon »

I get your point about out-deploying and I think the list has the drops to do so. With vanguarding reavers and Eagles your opponent is usually committed before you deploy the elites. The problem however is that against an opponent who knows he shouldn`t advance on you (basically any list that isn`t fast, skaven or without shooting), you have a lot of ground to cover. The Dwarf example also reflect on how shooty OK, CD, Empire, DE and HE can / should play against you, the essential part is that if the infantry units do not move out you are forced to engage the front (or demis rather, in the case of empire). I feel that OK is probably the worst matchup here, with maneaters and leadbelchers pretty much obliterating one unit each per turn and if you get into combat with them you still lose. I`ve had 2 games against this list recently (one with the SM list, one with the Star Dragon) and it`s a tough matchup in general, for MSU I think it`s a nightmare. I would actually rather have the Star Dragon here, since if has a chance of winning big IF you get T1 and survive a round of his IBs, whereas I fail to see how MSU can even touch the Maneaters, let alone the Ironguts, given the amount of firepower you face on your way in.

I agree to an extent that it`s boring to play gunlines. The games are very one-dimensional. I must say that I really like the new Dwarf book though! It encourages tactics over strategy, the inclusion of vanguarding banners, gyros and throw-away heroes mean that deployment isn`t as crucial as it used to be. Strange has also shown this in-game to great effect. Having started CD, I also appreciate the nuances and choices you have to make when playing such a list yourself, but I suppose you have more options with CD than the old DW book, given your access to Iron Daemon / K`daii and, of course, magic.

As for a Dwarf tactica, it depends on your list. MSU loses, Star Dragon loses. If you have a big unit of WL with BOTWD (which most lists feature) you can just place all your characters here and advance. If he has Irondrakes, they are your first priority as their shooting isn`t magical and they`ll kill 5-6WL per turn, given the chaff and opportunities they have this can quickly mean 15-20 WL dead before combat hits home, in which case the infantry will just murder you. Dwarfs are good on a point-per-point basis because their movement is so low, but with magical support WL/PG and even SM still grind through them, just not as easy as before (with our old book vs their old book it wasn`t even funny. I`ve had multiple games where 20-ish Lions just killed entire dwarf armies and won as much as 15-5 despite the dragon dying). I feel it`s fairly simple though, given your ordinary BOTWD-Elite list: you just push and focus your magic on keeping the Irondrakes at bay. Loremaster is excellent here. A cavstar can pretty much do the same, but they have to beware prolonged combats. I find with the new book though that most people don`t take blocks larger than 25-30, which is killable in 2 rounds of combat for a decently kitted cavstar. Another option with a cavstar is going for Death on the L4 (which I`ll be writing about shortly!), which makes this matchup nothing short of sad for the Dwarfs: you snipe his superscroll until he`s either used it or dead and then purple fun your way to kingdom come), which is a surprisingly strong lore in this context. Mobile death casters are a pain for many armies.

And as for Dark Elves, throw me into the no love for executioners camp. They`re WL without BOTWD, in a nutshell ;)

From your short descriptions of the games I feel you must`ve done something right - DE with 20 shades and 4 RBTs not getting a ranged advantage on you just sounds insane, considering shades is one of the best units in the game for dealing with small units of 2+ knights. The question I feel I must ask then is whether you feel the list was holding you back? While I can appreciate an experiment for the sake of experimenting, I`m also eager to know how it actually panned out. We, as humans, have an inherent tendency to get emotional about things we perceive as "our own", but whatever you do, when you want the best result possible, remember the saying "kill your darlings" ;)
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Re: Ferny's MSU: observations, weaknesses and match-ups...

#69 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:SD matchup: While my thoughts on viable SD lists clearly do not match this one`s, the list is still bad for you based on the 2 flyers alone. While Searing Doom can be a threat here, if he stops it you`re usually out of options as both Shem`s and SL rely on luck to do pretty much anything. The rest of his list is surprisingly strong against yours: due to the advancing monsters which you HAVE to respect, the infantry behind can often get favourable positions (which I`m betting you experienced on multiple occasions) as trying to move against them as you would if the flyers weren`t there is impossible. The matchup is a good, hard -2 for you (expect to lose 5-15 or worse), so 6-14 isn`t that bad. I think his lack of ranged firepower saved you a bit here as 4 RBTs on top of this would be just brutal. I think any SD matchup is -2 for you, assuming the birdie goes along.
I'm hoping to entice Swordmaster to comment on this battle so I don't want to sound too pessimistic from the get-go in terms of quantifying the match-up, but I would like to know what tools I could have used and what basic tactic I could have used. Indeed I found magic and RBTs too luck-based and no options to deal with infantry safely. Having given this a lot of thought I think I could maybe have castled in a corner and when the dragon and frosty hit home if I can pass a stubborn/steadfast/challenge-blocked round then I'll have an opportunity to counter-attack. Meanwhile, cavalry could be wide and roaming, offering some sort of threat to the infantry and options on rear-charging the flyers if they do go for the castle. Of course, they might go for the cavalry instead of the castle, but that at least means he isn't focusing everything on my one spot. I don't know if this might work, but at least it's something!

(I can't claim to have actually done well here though - he'd have mopped me up if the game had been longer).
Coven matchup; I assume you mean Light and not Life on the L4? Banishment is a real killer on your infantry. I am surprised you didn`t see this from the get-go as a quick exercise of Mathhammer shows that a successful cast of Banishment is quite likely to pretty much reduce a unit to a not-even-a-threat-level of significance. Also M10 Lions can really mess with carefully laid plans and Speed of Light + Pha`s give him a huge edge in combat, that`s not even considering the Loremaster spells! The list itself is a variation of a strong, tried and tested HE approach that I`ve written about previously so I`m not surprised you ran into big problems here.
Yes, light - typo. Combat wasn't even an issue here - simply didn't get there. Outgunned. I'm wondering whether a cavalry screen might have helped, or potentially castling away with cavalry outriders providing some pressure. Not sure - again, any insights as to start-point strategies greatly received. Again, Swordmaster, looking to you here buddy! I'm sure it is possible to play against these lists and I know I didn't play well...but it is a question of how. This list didn't look too bad on the surface - RBTs and archers and reavers should all be relatively easy pray even if I can't beat the star. And to be honest, if I didn't loose too much to incoming shooting and if his magic phase was poor then maybe I could beat the star! But the way I did it I just lost too many combat units without achieving enough... :?
In the end I think this approach is bound to run into too many -2 matchups late in a tournament, which is the main reason why I don`t believe the approach is viable. I fail to see any good, or even neutral, matchups among the typical strong builds that exist out there. Sure the massive amount of HE elites potentially hitting from multiple angles at once can decimate any unit, and while you will steamroll poor players once you meet the tougher list you`ll find yourself awkwardly trying to counter big griblies (HE SD, WoC monsters, DE pegs) without necessary board control or you are simply outshot and unable to properly push (previously mentioned CD/DW/OK/WE and so on, add HE to the list ;) ).

What is your intended approach moving forwards now? Also, what was your final placement? :)
I'm going to continue to put SM forward as a better representation of how these lists *can* do at tournaments. I came second from bottom with soft scores included (painting is still WIP) and about 45th/50th I think on BPs - so very badly! I'm not disheartened - I enjoyed having 6 games of warhammer in 2 days against varied opponents, and especially using a novel list for me.

From your list I think DE pegs aren't too bad - challenge block for a turn and counter-charge with high S troops (or steadfast even - they're not *that* killy. But Star Dragon+bird, multiple chimeras, for sure they seem tricky. Being outshot was also an unpleasant experience, though I do wonder how the list could have been played better there - I'm sure it could be.

I wouldn't rule the approach as nonviable based on my experience - merely unsuccessful in this young padwan's hands :wink: :lol: .

Where next for me? Well, in terms of MSU I'd like to try out an eagle noble. I don't think I dare make it my BSB, but I think I could sacrifice a single combat block to gain it. I'd also like to try out MSU with Teclis, though SCs weren't allowed at this tourney. But for now I'm going to shift back to my WL:PG list for a few games and see how it sits in the new meta. I've already transplanted 2xSwordmaster units into it to see whether my new-found 'skills' at MSU can translate into that list (i.e. multiple and flank charges etc). Once I get bored of that list I think I'll move back to a flying circus and try out a star dragon...and at some point I'm going to start undead as well!
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#70 Post by Curu Olannon »

Again, that SD-list is weird. The Dragon alone cannot be everywhere at once and it is vulnerable to Searing Doom. It is your only counter though, and the way a game typically goes he`s in your face T1. You then 6-dice SD and either IF, get dispelled or scrolled. Then T2 he´s either in combat or breathing fire down your neck. If his scroll is still intact, he`ll be in combat T3 and that`s where the pain begins. RBTs vs SD can hurt if they`re taken in numbers and the game goes on (you can double-flee for example but once he`s pushing your bunker this becomes a truly risky proposition).

What`s interesting to note is that the SD is not the only type of big gribbly you have to fear. While a Chimera is easier to handle on its own, you can quickly encounter multiple of them (and a DP, too, maybe!) as well as HE lists with frosties, DoC with BT/LoC etc. Some DE players still take their dragon, too, but this is getting rarer and rarer. My point is regardless that having some kind of answer against these threats is vital. Relying on a Loremaster alone does not work. With RBT backup it becomes a bit easier, but then again the Dragon can play the waiting game (as Searing Doom is a missile you need both front arc, 24" and Line of Sight) for a turn or two, letting its support (which is significant) help out.

As for the Light Coven. It is a very strong list. I have been considering a 2k version myself for an uncomped tournament but in the end, I think I`d rather just not participate. 2k uncomped sees some truly ridiculous lists come out, to the point where nothing but the matchups matter. Example lists include quadruple-frostheart High Elves, Bells and Whistles Skaven, 3-cannon 2-stank S8 banishment empire and dark elves with 140 shots per turn (at 2k, with fighter characters and lots of magic). Anyways, getting off-topic here: in your case a cavalry screen will likely die. Fast. 4 RBTs and Banishment hurt cavalry a lot and there simply isn`t enough to go around. The problem with advancing on this list is the strength of the Lions coupled with lots of sacrificial stuff which prevents you from engaging your preferred targets: the soft ones. A strong player will usually be able to hide away the significant elements, probably with the Archers in horde close to the table edge with the lions on the refused flank with RBTs spread out, pending on terrain of course. A classic castle formation. I`m sure there are things you could`ve done better (it pretty much always is, for everyone in every game!), but without a BR it`s hard to comment on.

The basic math here is that he has ~30 elite infantry models with superior magic support AND a frostheart. You have ~50 elite infantry models and ~10 DP? As soon as he`s dropped the cav and ~10 elites, he has the upper hand, and that truly isn`t so hard when facing T3 5+ Elves with that amount of shooting and magic. In return, your shooting is significantly weaker and your magic can`t touch his elites because of BOTWD.

The danger of DE pegs is their ability to reliably get to where they are needed and strike combined at important units (against MSU infantry they can triple up and pretty much instakill anything, with re-rolling hits and wounds and 2 S4 attacks + stomps x3), or separately at supporting units. When you bear in mind that they have fast cav bunkers as well, it`s just not even funny: they go wherever they want, whenever they want. T1 they can be 32" across the table from his deployment zone, meaning that an RBT taking up 2" deployed on the backline will only be 14" away. That`s T1, for half his army, pretty much (depending on his configuration, of course).

Teclis is a powerhouse, but he is also very fragile and expensive. I`m not sure how best to utilize him. How would you build an MSU-list around him? I can see Coven of Light as an interesting approach since he can also pick other spells that are highly valuable - in a nutshell he´s a super-loremaster as such. Suddenly, with Searing Doom, Banishment and Spirit Leech as well as Purple Fun etc your magic goes from dangerous to downright terrifying. How common is it to allow SCs at your tournaments?
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#71 Post by Curu Olannon »

I just realized something that could be interesting. In an SC-environment, you can take Alarielle and her special banner and go Coven of Light: With the Banner`s special rule getting off boosted Timewarp is actually trivial (a level 4 requires 16+, 90.4% probability on 6D6) which could make MSU elites truly, truly, brutal.
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#72 Post by Ferny »

OK, so my revised approach vs armies which outgun me is probably to hide!

I possibly need to build more ranged threat into my list - the obvious thing would be more RBTs. I could do a straight swap with one unit of sisters and maybe drop a unit of swordmasters to about 5 to accommodate a second. Swordmaster has commented that getting good LoS is harder with MSU, but I've seen a few MSU lists with multiple RBTs, so it isn't out of the question. Another option is a frosty which is pretty tanky and has a big threat range - this is something Nicene has played with and reported on. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to devote that many points to it in MSU though, as I'll end up without the M!

I hadn't considered coven - I'm not sure it's well suited to MSU, although I'm sure it could work. But again, you're devoting a lot of points to characters (500+ to magic, plus BSB) which negates some of the M benefits. Allarielle's 5++ is pretty neat, but is more efficient on a larger unit (and she doesn't get the book). And all these wizards (and now naked BSB) need to be protected/bunkered, and other than behind a 3-wide lion unit I'm not sure where they'd go? Also, BotWD is less efficient in MSU (not an outright right off - it is good enough to consider for sure - but certainly less efficient)...so forbidden rod is less enticing and all the wizards are looking at more miscast damage etc.

SCs are reasonably common over here I think. For reference, here's the Teclis list I drew up after my first tournament. I'm not sure if I still like the set-up, but it's where I started from.

Teclis’ Warhost
Lords:

Teclis: 450

Heroes:
Noble BSB: barded elven steed, lance, dragon armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of strength: 176

Core: 604
8x Silver Helms, shields+FC (214)
5xReavers+mus (90)
5xReavers+mus (90)
18 Archers+FC = (210)

Special: 815
5xDragon Princes + champ+(starlance) (185)
5xDragon Princes+banner+flame (165)
10x White Lions+FC+BotWD (210)
10x White Lions+champ (140)
10x Swordmasters+FC (160)

Rare: 330
Sisters, 5x Sisters of Avelorn=70
Sisters, 5xSisters of Avelorn =70
Eagle-Claw Bolt Throwers, RBT=70
Eagle-Claw Bolt Throwers, RBT=70

30 pts spare e.g. bows on reavers, 3 more archers, FC for lions+DP champ, more bodies for Teclis’ bodyguard, gleaming pennant???
Total: 2,400
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#73 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Great to see you are eager to find solutions and learn from mistakes rather than succumb to pessimistic approach where nothing can be done when match up is bad. You have produced a number of very detailed posts so it will naturally take time to address them. It is just to say I read your topic and despite time constraints (not an excuse, simply an explanation) I will try to get back to you.

Thanks a lot for getting the discussion going and keeping positive approach!
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Re: Ferny's MSU: localised shooting superiority+flying monsters

#74 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

I am going to attempt to catch up with the discussion :) Before I do it, just a general comment. Despite more than 100 games I have played with MSU I don't feel I am in a position to advice. There are 15 armies out there so if I played them all the same amount of times it would give around 7 games per army. Hardly enough to call myself an expert! So whatever I am going to write below I want you to treat as food for thought rather than ready to use solutions. I will of course try to provide ideas based on my gaming experience but sometimes I may not simply because I have never faced a certain army you may have. Hopefully you will find that feedback useful.

Weaknesses

It is an important thing to know your weaknesses. It is a part of "know thyself" as SunTzu advices :) Let's have a closer look at what you have mentioned.

1. Dispel Scroll

This item is very handy to have, no mistake about it. But why do you feel it is essential? It is one use item so it is not insurance policy that is going to help you no matter what. But what I think is more important is, what kind of spells are you afraid so much that you need to have dispel scroll?

There is nothing there to prevent you from including a scroll caddy though. It does require some points savings elsewhere but it is true for any army. If you were to include level 1 with dispel scroll it is also worthy considering what else can he bring to the table. Channelling is the obvious answer and that is already handy. It helps in generating power and dispel dice which is always good to have. Better more than less.

You may consider the lore though. While Loremaster himself has quite significant selection there is nothing wrong with more redundancy. Or ability to get that higher level spell. Level 1 has smaller chance to succeed in casting one but at the same time allows for less subtle 6-dicing that has also this advantage that if he miscasts you lose just level 1 not the general or main caster. There are some spells that can be simply psychological weapon and make the life of your opponent more difficult as he needs to dispel certain spells and let the Loremaster free reign. Provided you roll well on winds of magic.

2. +2 or +4 to dispel

This is another hard decision to make it is simply the choice between two good options. It is worth remembering that although the Archmage gives you better chance to dispel a spell you are not going to dispel them all. Your opponent will simply have more power dice sometimes, more caters, too many spells to stop it all. Regardless of the fact whom you pick, Loremaster or Archmage, you need to learn how to make decisions on what to dispel. Having the Loremaster often means that you pick one spell and throw more dice to dispel it while Archmage gives the chance to dispel more but possibly with higher risk.

I would like to point out, however, that I have found out it is perfectly possible to win games without Loremaster even, when he decided to blow himself up. Even against armies that had magic superiority anyway. What I missed was the chance to fight back in the magic phase or the fact I gave away 400+ points rather than the fact I lost that +2 to dispel. It is not to say it is nothing. Every modifier helps. But it does not mean it is the only way to survive enemy's magic phase.

3. Teclis

I have never used him so I cannot comment on his utility. I am sure he can be very useful but at the same time he also costs significantly more.

4. Spells vulnerability

Armies are vulnerable to spells, just different armies to different spells. Big spells are more difficult to cast but people 6-dice them often anyway and even risk miscasting as the effect can be more rewarding. One purple sun will hurt Ogres or Dwarves greatly. One time Dwellers or Transmutation will hurt big blocks no matter what.

MSU have magic missiles or chain lightning/comets to fear. Not all the units, however, are similarly vulnerable. Not all of them have to be in the range or arc of sight to be cast. You have to take into account that the enemy is going to roll well for number of hits but at the same time it helps you to plan accordingly. If I lose 6 out of 10 members of the unit it means the unit is much weaker. But it does not mean it is useless. It can either withdraw and secure the points or it can still be used as a redirector, assassination squad etc. They may be even ignored and that can be good thing to exploit.

You still have to make a priority as to what to dispel and when. Obviously, magic missiles may be priority early in the game. But later on something else will be more important, like that Iceshard Blizzard that seems to be less dangerous because it is indirect.
As an example I will tell you about the situation where I managed to surround Saurus regiment from 4 sides but made a grievous mistake in dispelling priority. Here is the link to the game:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 60#p868409

I had the unit surrounded but before I could charge we had my opponents magic phase. He first cast chain lightning on one of my units that were not even in the close vicinity of the combat. But knowing how dangerous it can be I decided to dispel it. It gave my opponent a chance to cast a comet and then get it on the head of 5 units engaged in combat. That was excellent plan and great idea and I still beat my head for letting that comet to get in. I was in bad situation already but that comet sealed the deal where I could have fought back.

Bottom line is, there are spells that are going to hurt you but you can do something to minimize their effect. You can try to dispel some, you can limit the choices etc.

5. and 6. Banner of the World Dragon

There is absolutely no reason why you should not include it if you feel like it is needed. It can protect your wizard from killing himself and half of his unit. Probably the most important advantage here. He can survive some attempts to snipe him with spells without bothering to use precious dispel dice. As you say, in some circumstances it can also be used against certain enemies, be it directly or in an indirect way to force them to avoid your regiment.

It is simply an option for you to choose. If you think that the benefits are worth the cost then go for it!

7. Phoenix Guard

There is absolutely no rule that all your units have to be below 200 points or have no more than 12 warriors in the case of the infantry. Some MSU players deliberately include proper anvil unit that can take the damage and emerge combat ready. PG can be that unit for you. There are advantages to take it. You can have better protection for the characters (no need for BotWD if you add some MR(2) item). They can attack frontally together with flank attacking force to prevent enemy characters from making way. They can provide ranks to break steadfast.

The price to pay is that you need to make room for bigger unit. Then that unit may attract more attention due to its size and characters attached. That attention may mean that they will still suffer as the enemy will direct more resources to deal with it.
But as always it is all about making decision between what can be gained and what can be lost by including such regiment. If gains are higher than losses then why not to try it? If you do then you simply need to think about best ways to use it. How to team it up with other units. How to position it knowing that your enemy will anticipate the characters being positioned there. Maybe you can use it to your advantage sometimes? What spells would be the most helpful? If you run Loremaster then Wildform is good. If you want archmage with shadow then withering helps a lot, not to mention mindrazor.

Therby I disagree it is negated by MSU because the principle of using many units to rule movement phase and engineer combined charges is still there. It is with different tools and you may need to use them differently.

8. Character assassination

Well, D&D + Hellcannon affects big unit in the same way as small. In fact, it may be even bigger problem because if big unit with associated characters flees the table then the player loses huge portion of his army.

Spirit leach can kill your characters in the same way, big unit or not. Other spells, like Dwellers or Transmutation, are more dangerous for big units than for small. Especially when your characters don’t sit in one regiment.

Characters in big units may not suffer immediately but at the same time they may have no place to escape either. And you have means to protect them too.

The same magic items that help characters in big units help you as well. Loremaster can attempt to heal himself if wounded due to lack of bodyguards. Enemies tend to ignore depleted regiments if character jumps out of them so that you can save points. If you face template weapons deploy in wider formations so it is more difficult to hit many warriors at the same time. If you face cannons, don’t position characters where they can be targeted anyway so that you don’t have to take that LoS roll at all.

Spells need to be in range so make sure you are not. Or at least not at short range so casting is more difficult.

These are not bullet proof solutions but the main point is to show that you are not hapless against these dangers.

9. Point efficiency

I am not sure what you wanted to emphasise here and what is the weakness. I am guessing it is the fact that you pay for upgrades that otherwise could be used for more warriors? It seems so (I am replying while reading).

I don’t think it is a weakness. Let’s compare two units, both with champion and musician or banner and musician as these are the most common upgrades (at least for me). With the same amount of points spent on number of warriors, two units are now 20 points more expensive.

However, very often big unit has full command and magic banner so that balances out the point cost.
This is yet again another example where you simply make a decision between two options, which are both as good as you can make them. Single unit may benefit from upgrades more but it is easier to block it and prevent it to move to where you want it to be. 2 units are more manoeuvrable and can potentially be two threats rather than one. And you have more flexibility with their use, both can move, both can fight or one can fight and one can move.

That is why I prefer more optimistic point of view and simply look at the options as what they are, possible upgrades. You can take them but you don’t have to. And no matter what you are going to take you simply need to work out what is the best way to use it. Also in the context of the whole army because no matter if it is one unit or two they have to cooperate with other elements.

10. Tough match ups

It is obvious what I am going to say but every army has a tough match up. In fact, I believe MSU does not have easy ones because it is the approach of high risk factor and the one that always has to work perfectly so that there is no room for error. But that is also the reason it is so appealing to me.

It would help if there were detailed army lists as reference points for each type of potential tough match up. I am not going to rate them though, because I have not faced many of them. Which personally I find interesting because I do attend big tournaments. At this moment, however, I would assume it is due to the fact I haven’t had enough games yet. Seems like a sample of 100+ is still not enough!
A very good and veteran player, Charles Black, the guy who used to win tournaments in the time when many of us learned how to roll a single d6, wrote a very good tactics article in e-zine irresistible force:

http://www.irresistibleforce.com.au/Dow ... Issue4.pdf

it’s a great read by itself but he also explained a method how he assesses particular match up.

1) what threats they pose to my army
2) what weaknesses they have to me
3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

I will try to use his methods to do so for the armies mentioned but please, forgive me for the limited amount of ideas because many of these are simply theoretical

Dark Elves

I haven’t played against such army and the closest thing I had was in 3 games against Guess Range very long time ago:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 30#p792265

Both armies were under their 7ed army books then. However, I faced strong magic and shooting so at least partially my experience can be helpful, even if it is more about what not to do!

I assume the following: 2-3 peg riders, one bsb, one lord with 3++ ward against magic and shooting, all with 1+ armour save (if not rerollable). Dark Riders, Shades, Warlocks, possibly level 4 in darkshards, reapers.

1) What threats they post to my army

Very strong shooting, able to decimate any unit in a single turn. Good speed and manoeuvrability (flying characters, fast cavalry), strong magic (warlocks + level4). ASF, hatred, some units with S4 and S5. Scouts, fast cavalry.

2) What weaknesses they have to me

Not much armour (apart from flying characters), low model count (due to large number of characters and relatively expensive models), small units (easier to panic), some units S3 or 4 only, shorter range, low toughness.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- deploy further away to avoid being in range from the start and force them to come to me at different speed
- threaten scouts with magic missiles
- threaten characters with searing doom (if no protection against flaming) or with bolt thrower (not all of them)
- use longer range to shoot at warlocks and dark riders, in particular if not in the range of BSB, 4++ is good but they are often in units of 5 so they can be panicked
- keep double line formation to deny safe landing zones and provide additional penalties for BS shooting
- use terrain to limit BS shooting efficiency
- If possible approach with refused flank so that not all the shooting can be directed at my units and enemy has to block his own line of sight
- Challenge heroes if they attack my units and make sure any regiment can receive immediate support.
- Make sure overrun does not lead to another fight. If they attack all together it is ok because they don’t block 3 units at the same time. If they attack separately, you can have higher chances to hold and maybe sneak a wound or two anyway. BSB can also be broken in combat.
- Cast spells to make the combat going against them too. If you use Loremaster, wildform, blizzard, miasma are all very helpful.

Lizardmen

Again, I haven’t played against one but I assume there is Slann, scar vet or two, maybe in a block of saurus or temple guard. Lots of skinks skirmishers, chameleons, salamanders.

1) what threats they pose to my army

Very good magic, in particular loremaster combination, channelling stuff and 3 attempts to channel per turn. Scar veterans are very hard to kill and with 3d6 Ld might hold units in place. Skinks are dangerous mainly due to poison. Even if you get rid of them, they are not worth many points and as such are perfectly expendable. Salamanders may evaporate whole regiments too.

2) what weaknesses they have to me

Short range means that skinks need to advance to use their weapons. T2 means they are very vulnerable even to S3 attacks. Because they have to get closer they may be in the charge range. Due to wider skirmishing formation they might get into each other’s way. Very weak in combat. Low ld so if out of range of Slann they may trouble to rally even on 3d6.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- Keep your characters away from slann so that he cannot spirit leach you, be careful that he cannot use skink priest as a vessel either
- Deploy carefully so that chameleons can’t sneak behind your lines
- Use heavy cavalry and white Lions as a shield against the darts so that more vulnerable units get -2 penalty
- Remember that 7+ to hit cancels poison
- Try to get early charges with Dragon Princes, if you fail you are not exposed and the battle line can follow, if you succeed you can reach and destroy a few skink units and maybe even get to the salamanders
- Use your own shooting and magic missiles. You may have additional penalties due to skirmish but focus fire until the unit is dead. They don’t cost much but dead unit forces panic checks and is one less to worry about. Single skinks can be very annoying.
- Consider engaging with all your units, in fact, archers are awesome in combat against skinks as they re-roll to hit and wound on 3+.
- Keep intact and coherent battle line so no skirmisher can sneak behind your lines and move forward, herding the skinks
- Use your own magic such as miasma, iceshard to make them hit with more penalties
- Keep your eagles hidden so that they can still be used to redirect his main block (if any)

Dwarves

I have played against the new ones only once. The old castle was worse, in my opinion, because they could have more machines and could protect OG better as they didn’t require LoS. It is of course tough game if you want to win big as you will need to approach and that is what your Dwarven opponent wants and is prepared for.

1) what threats they pose to my army

Hard to breach formation, high toughness and good armour. Very high ld, often stubborn. Very dangerous war machines. Dangerous shooters. Better than usual magic defence as they still can take multiple scrolls. High strength attacks in close combat with possible hatred. Gyros. 5++ ward save banner against magic and shooting.

2) what weaknesses they have to me

Slow. Move or fire weapons (with the exception of gyros). If designed to castle will have to remain in that formation or the castle starts having dangerous breaches in its walls.

Irondrakes have flaming attacks so dragon armour is very handy. Organ Gun and other shooters have BS based shooting so that can be modified by magic or by intervening troops.

They are predictable, you can guess in which corer they might deploy (the one with the hill).
Their war machines are very expensive so every lost one is a problem.

They leave ¾ of the board open for you to use.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- you don’t have to advance, if you don’t he is not going to reach you with his troops and his shooting will be limited. It may not be an interesting game and I am sure Dwarven player will complain but if you don’t have a plan to win, then have a plan not to lose.
- Assuming you want to try you can use your deployment drops advantage. Place bolt thrower and eagles where cannons cannot shoot them. Deploy in lines to avoid grudge throwers hits. Create double line so that gyros have no safe landing zone and more fragile units are protected from BS based shooting.
- Try to get a unit or character to attack irondrakes. They can hold against them even if it is a constant draw but a noble can actually inflict some casualties that will force the opponent to take break tests. That is not to break them (but if they do all the better) but to keep them occupied and not shooting at other regiments.
- Use lions as protectors for other regiments.
- Use reavers as a shield if needs be (in particular for DP so they can charge irondrakes) even in conga line so that they offer protection to more units.
- Use magic to affect accuracy, miasma, iceshard or to eliminate war machines, fireball
- Use your own shooting to hunt down gyros
- Advance with terrain as an ally, might be useful to approach longer way too as that may affect line of sight of the Dwarven shooters and they would need to readjust.
- Keep your eagle somewhere safe but close if possible to prevent the charges from the fighting blocks

Chaos Dwarves

I played against them once. They didn’t have destroyer, or magma cannon or daemon but since it is “any build” I guess my one time experience may still be useful. Here is the link to the report if you want more details:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 30#p795089

Nurgle DoC

Not sure if that qualifies but this is the report when I faced Nurlge themed army list:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=48704
Again, not much experience yet so some theoretical food for thoughts

1) what threats they pose to my army

Very resilient, high toughness + ward saves (often 4++). Reign of Chaos. Dangerous magic (visitations, curse of the lepper), greater daemon, beasts with many attacks, drones (haven’t faced them yet though). Itp, cause fear/terror

2) what weaknesses they have to me

Slow and cumbersome block of plaguebearers slows the army down. Not much shooting even with cannons. Ld 8 of the heralds, instability, cannot flee. Small support units still vulnerable to missiles of any kind.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- deploy further to let them come to you as they need to. Plaguebearers march 8” per turn so will need 3 turns to touch your deployment zone. Whatever is deployed at 32.1” will not be in charge range for them for 3 turns, that is half of the game when that unit can be ignored.
- Target support units first so that they cannot mess up your deployment and against them shooting and magic can have an effect
- Use your own magic to snipe heralds (particularly bsb), searing doom may be good against greater daemons if they roll 2+ armour save.
- Beast of nurgle have S4 so heavy cavalry can deal with them (especially with flaming attacks and wyssans) if they are not that numerous or one hero with 1+ rerollable can pin them down.
- Use movement to confuse the enemy as he will not be able to cover all angles and will have to react to your positioning anyway, which can slow them down even further.
- GUO is pedestrian and as such can be diverted, use it to your advantage.
- Even plaguebearers can die if engaged from different angles so try to get the units in position as well as destroying support in the meantime.
- Kill any additional horrors and heralds asap if possible. Single GUO can be better managed in the magic phase. You will not dispel it all but with 4 spells against you it is easier to make your priorities. Without channels he can also suffer from low wind of magic result.
- Keep units in mutual support so that any additional daemonic regiment is not going to surprise you.

Warriors of Chaos

Despite quite a handful of games against WOC I didn’t face multiple chimeras with flying DP and/or heroes on disks. I faced some though, in different configurations.

1) what threats they pose to my army

Extremely fast, very good armour, some characters almost unkillable. Very good in combat, have multitudes of attacks. DP can heal itself in combat, tzeentch level 4 on a disk has powerful magic hard to prioritize against as magic missiles can be of significant strength. Tzeentch lore attribute.

2) what weaknesses they have to me

Low model count. Very different speed (apart from chimeras and characters the rest of the army may be pedestrian or chariots). Chimeras very vulnerable to fire based attacks. Low Ld if not close to general. Every turn the characters are out of combat, too long in combat works for you. No rank bonus so even single file provides steadfast.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- Deploy on the edge, they will fly to you anyway. Prepare for turn 2 charges.
- Use Sisters to inflict a wound and pick up with the rest of the shooting on Chimera. They have only 4w and at T5 they will suffer. If possible, deploy Dragon Princes so that they can charge CHimeras turn 1 (if they have banner of eternal flame) or they will have to slow down.
- Fireball and burning gaze are also very useful. Even wounded Chimera will be more reluctant to engage any of your units.
- Deploy and move in mutual support so if you are charged you can hold on steadfast and counter attack
- It is even more important if your enemy is going to charge his BSB solo. You can break him and he is going to die automatically
- Have some champions to challenge, some heroes have to challenge some can’t refuse (like DP when fighting alone) so that you can buy more time
- Position carefully so the overrun does not lead to new combat immediately
- Use your own magic (I am still assuming we have the loremaster) to affect combats, all spells you have matter.
- Keep moving, although you deployed at the edge, smaller unit count means you have chance to move around and avoid dangers while threatening his other units. Like isolated warriors regiment if there is one (often is).
- If you face sorcerer on disk try to trap him with cavalry, he is not strong and his magic will be limited
I haven’t faced shooty ogres but I imagine they might castle as well. I haven’t played against new WE yet so I can’t say much yet. I try to observe their games though as I will need to get some ideas as I think they will be popular at least for a while.

Game against DE

It looks like you played very well and neutralized his shooting advantage. Well done! When looking at the situation described, the charge of corsairs, there are things that may have worked slightly better for you:

- Don’t charge with DP’s at all, they are very vulnerable to mindrazor also because it is first round of combat where corsairs still have re-rolls due to hatred. The reason is that although they provide a lot of attacks, they don’t have rerolls. I wonder how many corsairs did you get with DP? The trouble is you are about to lose a unit, which is not necessary.
- 2 units of Swordmastes at the flank of the corsairs will fare better on their own. Btw, how many casualties SM inflicted?
- You may still lose combat but lions were there to hold them in place and you would have had counter charging Dragon Princes without mindrazor on corsairs
- Second thing is double flee which was even better because he is in worse position, i.e. you attack from both flanks.
I understand the idea to try out the situation and see what is going to happen but if we are to analyse the options, double flee was a better one. Also, if he didn’t have mindrazor I would have cast miasma on initiative as that means he does not get rerolls in the subsequent round of combat (if he stayed) as even with ASF he needs high initiative enough to get re-rolls.

How to make the enemy move

It is a good point that local magic and shooting superiority may force the enemy to move towards you. It is possible to achieve such situation in the deployment phase. If you think that you need your magic and shooting do the job then start deploying combat units first. Your opponent will react to it and you can place your shooters where it hurts the most. Of course it does not mean you have to place your assault troops in the harms range either. Simply start with them. There is a chance your enemy will face a dilemma, to advance towards your combat troops where you want him to go and get shot in the process or move towards the shooters where it might be the longer way and he might expose his flank to the combat troops.

Even with more standard deployment pattern you can achieve that because you decide where to point your bows at. And what is the target for spells. Loremaster may be just level 2 but with huge amount of spells he will be able to sneak in some. It is then important to know at which order to cast them and how to make those you want to go through.

Finally, if you deploy out of range of some units, your enemy is also forced to move if he wants to earn some points. There are armies out there which are better at it than yours but the DE army you fought against as well as a theoretical situation with Dwarven force are not such cases.

You demonstrated it against DE. You used your advantage at the deployment phase and forced him to move in order to have his xbows at range and move his combat blocks to engage you because this what they were there for.

In the case of Dwarven example Irondrakes are one of the dangers. However, if they vanguard they are already isolated. Well positioned Dragon Princes can even be able to charge them your turn 1. The rest of the army can simply “castle” in the opposite corner and move with wide flanking move. Your DP should be opposite Iron Drakes but out of range of the OG. Dwarven player, as I have mentioned before, now has a dilemma. TO move and lose position or stay and be unable to score many points. It might be dull game but if he has a right to position in the corner and expect you to attack him so do you. Yes, you may need to force opponents to move but they must have a way to do so as well. With shorter range of many shooters, move or fire for others and the risk coming from abandoning good defensive position he may be in trouble too. There is no need to play to your opponents strengths.

How to play against two big fliers

It is a tough one for sure. I have faced big fliers before, twice against Dragon + 2 Terror Geists, once against 2 dragon list on Masters (see the link below for reference).

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=41143
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=46565
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 17#p854846

I lost first badly, won second and lost last 9-11 so I can’t claim I know perfect solution. But let’s try to assess the threat the Star Dragon army is for you with the same method as before:

1) what threats they pose to my army

two powerful fliers. Star dragon is capable of destroying any unit on his own. Frostheart is dangerous to your small infantry due to t-stomp. Hard to kill too. Some shooting that can be dangerous to your small regiments. Sea guard as a good match up for your elites. High magic can help with movement.

2) what weaknesses they have to me

no cavalry. No long range shooting. Manageable magic. Not much of the magic defence. Star dragon and frost phoenix have to either stay with the army thus being slower or race forward thus being isolated. Fewer units meaning they can be outdeployed.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

There is no doubt it is difficult game but there are a few things you can do:
- as always in the case of powerful flying individuals, deploy further away
- make sure your cavalry can charge frosty, it can be slowed down because it relies on t-stomps to do damage, you can even break it on the charge if it is outside the bsb range but main thing is to split the fliers
- don’t let them land behind your lines
- shoot swordmasters
- if possible match up swordmasters against Lions, SM can win against them, here is the example:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 60#p849993

- your core troops are also good against white lions
- cavalry is good against sea guard
- magic is your friend too, searing doom even 6-dice for big version against the dragon helps.
- Make sure whatever dragon charges can be steadfast and may have champions to challenge
- Make sure the dragon does not overrun into fresh fight
- The longer it is out of combat the better
- You can try to spirit leach bsb so that it is easier to panic/ break other troops
- Keep moving, you will threaten his army and make targets for star dragon more difficult to catch (as you can move out of its arc of sight)
- Were there any buildings? Loremaster in the building is excellent idea as you can move in and out thus saving you from dragon charge and you can use a unit with more than 10 models to keep him safe.
- Don’t ignore the dragon but consider this. The dragon costs around 600 points. The opponent often wants at least 600 points of kills to make it even. It means he needs to kill 4 units of yours to make it. If you limit number of combats to 4 or less he already is not gaining points. If at the same time you keep killing his stuff it means you are even in pure kills if you do it fast enough. So, be aware of a dragon but try to get the kills elsewhere too.

Light council

I have never faced this type of an army so again, apologies for not speaking from experience. But I am going to try, nevertheless, to assess that army too, in the manner I did with all other forces:

1) what threats they pose to my army

very powerful magic. Hard to get bunker. Good shooting that can add to the magic.

2) what weaknesses they have to me

all eggs in one basket. No option to defend his support units. Slow (ha may be reluctant to move WL at full speed to be able to shoot with handmaiden). BS based shooting that can be mitigated by your spells, terrain and intervening units. Magic missile based spells requiring line of sight.

3) how I will try and beat it ie minimize threats and maximize strengths

- Because his magic missiles often have 24” range for base spells at least, deploy further to avoid being targeted turn 1.
- Use your own shooters and magic to target his reavers
- Staying out of range will make him move towards you. That affects his line of sight but more importantly, shooting capabilities.
- Use the fact his magic missiles have limited range to move some fast units outside of it and outflank him in order to hunt down bolt throwers
- Keep moving so that he constantly needs to change the facing thus limiting his target selection
- Burning gaze and fireballs are flaming so you may be bolder with Dragon Princes but you need to be aware of Banishment.
- Don’t panic, you will suffer casualties but there are softer targets in his list and even more so if he starts to move in order to get into range.
- He is defensive in nature and have few units so there is a chance he will like to castle, use that to anticipate where he is going to deploy his units and position yours in the opposite corner (but don’t castle just be prepared to move around his flanks when he moves towards you).
- Use terrain to block line of sight or at least add penalties for bolt throwers and archers.
Ok, I think there is already way too much too read so I stop here. I do hope this monstrosity of a post is going to provide some food for thought as otherwise it would have been a huge waste of time on my part!

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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