Ulthuan

In the spirit of trying something different from my WL/PG list, and in a (temporary) move away from my recent foray into a flying circus list, I'm going to try a bowline. I don't remember seeing this on the boards since Furion's 7th ed list with 2 magic bows, but I could have missed it. About the closest I've seen is the LionStar, with 4x15 archers in core, 4x RBTs + 2 eagles in rare, and then the rest in a big lion unit with characters. Whether that means a bowline isn't competitive, isn't all-comers, isn't easy or fun to use or simply doesn't compare as favourably to other lists I'm not sure...

2,400 List outline, with particular query areas in red (I have some wiggle room on points):

Lords:
Alith *mutherchuffin* Anar (BS7 S7 QtF Bolt Thrower!)
Lv AM, with BoH...lore tbc...

Heroes:
Noble BSB Reaver Bow, PoS, enchanted shield...or Handmaidenwith same load-out

Lv2 Mage, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury - presence and lore tbc

Rare:
4xRBT
15xSisters...or 3x5 Sisters....or 10 Sisters + 5 Sisters

Core:
6xSH(sh)+st
6xSH(sh)+st
5xreavers(inc bow+sp)+mus
5xreavers(inc bow+sp)+mus
5xreavers(inc bow+sp)+mus

Special:
25 White Lions; full command; BotWD...or should I split this into two smaller, stubborn road block units...or even take something with more horde-killing power as my shooting should deal with monsters, cav etc...

I'm reasonably happy with the basic principle:

Alith Anar, 15 Sisters, a Reaver Bow and 4xRBT will shoot, whilst 3x5 reaver knights will disrupt the enemy's advance, 2x6 silver helms offer some combat-based board control and a big block of stubborn lions protect the shooters (or advance if appropriate).

But I have a few questions:
1) What lores should I take for my AM and Lv2?

I want a Lv4 in rather than a loremaster for the extra magical defence, but there are several lores which work well with this list, looking to enhance my shooting rather than cover other weaknesses.

High magic has +D3BS. Shadow has -D3T. Heavens has re-roll 1's in shooting (bubble!). Metal has +1 to hit (and AP, or is that combat only?) and even fire has +1 to wound. Of course, there are other spells in the lore to consider too - high offers a unit killer, a cheap MM, boosted ward saves and toys. Celestial has an anti-castle spell, high S MM, an unbeatable sig spell...and in this list I think there's even a use for Wind Blast ( ?). Fire I'm not really serious on, although it would add more volume to my ranged threat. Metal will help vs cavalry and MC lists which would advance on my shooting quickly. Shadow of course has -D3M and Mindrazor to make even my sisters scary in combat (after a stand and shoot too!) - although if I went shadow I'd be tempted to switch out a unit of helms for a unit of 15 archers to take advantage of these two features (otherwise I feel archers are a weak spot in my battle line.

2) Do I need a Lv2? If I take him I can guarantee getting the spells I want/need for my AM if I go the same lore...but if I were to go for a different lore, are there any which particularly fit this list? Also, I want him for the scroll caddy, and as default I'd also give him the ring to give him a third spell, but in this list I have points to give the ring to the AM and could ditch the scroll (or even, heresy, switch it for the BoH). If I were to get rid of the Lv2, what would you spend the extra points on? My suggestion would be more white lions, to either create 2 decent sized units or 1 large with BotWD and one smaller one on guard duties.

3) Noble BSB or Handmaiden? I want the reaver bow, and would usually give it to my foot BSB to make him into a utility character. I wouldn't really take a foot BSB without it, and in this list there'd be no point at all in having him if he didn't have it. But there is an opportunity here to take the handmaiden instead. She effectively adds 5" to the Maiden Guard's range, and gives them a really scary stand and shoot which cannot be denied. She also has an extra pip of BS, which at long range and multi-shot means (with moving not mattering), makes her shots much more reliable than the BSB's...which matters if you're wanting to burn the potion. The downside of course is that she's a bit more squishy, she has to go with the sisters (the BSB might choose sisters or lions) and the biggie - no BSB re-rolls...but there is Ld10 from Alith Anar...

4A) Unit Structure: Sisters. If I go the handmaiden route they will be in a single unit where all three ranks get to fire. I quite like this set up - to kill a monster they'd need about this level of dedicated shooting, it makes their stand and shoot a force to be reckoned with (especially with QtF) and it gives them extra mobility. However, if I split them up they have more targeting options and I can use them as speedbumps to protect the bolt throwers.

4B) Unit Structures: White Lions - one big block of 25 with BotWD or two blocks of 12-14 with Gleaming Pennant and Flame (or 12ish more if I ditch the Lv2). I like the big block because it gives me a solid combat threat with ranks to deal with anything which gets through the valley of death. Also it justifies the BotWD which protects Alith from Death and Magic Weapons wielding characters, and the AM and unit from miscasts. However, I don't feel it works well as a guard for my missile troops as it can only be in one place at once. Two smaller units would be perfectly adequate for taking out wounded monsters, chariots or cavalry which make it down the field quickly, and being stubborn (with Alith's Ld10) should act as good roadblocks. It also gives me access to flame in combat and a BSB free re-roll if I choose the handmaiden.

5A) Unit Selection: No Archers. I haven't selected any units of archers in my bowline army! I have a couple of reasons for this. The main one is that I feel that archers present a weak link which could be attacked easily. Also, their usual role of pinging off charmed shields, clearing chaff and dealing with awkward sods like manglers, fanatics and potentially things like dark elf infantry, is largely covered in this list by RBTs. That said, I feel that this list definitely needs reavers to slow the enemy advance, but the role for silver helms is less obvious here, and it would basically be a straight sub of 6 helms for 15 archers, which could be done once or twice. I would definitely do this in a shadow list, where their S3 arrows can be augmented by -D3T and their three ranks of ASF S3 combat potential can be augmented to S8 via mindrazor...shadow basically covers their weaknesses. It would also mean that they could act as pretty effective RBT guards, covering them from both the lighter and heavier stuff, and giving my white lions more freedom to act independently. But without shadow I don't know how effective they'd be, and whether they'd really be more of a liability.

5B) Unit Selection: White Lions over swordmasters or pheonix guard. My concern here is horde lists, where 1S6 attack per lion won't cut it next to 2 WS6 from swordmasters or 1S4 ASF (razor?) from PG. However, I'm concerned about swordmasters getting shot (although mitigated if I take High magic). PG are a tempting alternative, but I always feel the BotWD is wasted on them (rather go razor), but not having a unit with BotWD seems such a shame for all the extra perks...and finally, stubborn is such a safety net for my one main combat unit, especially when on guard duty for my shooters.

So - thoughts? Is a bowline viable/sensible/fun? And any ideas on the questions raised...or anything else for that matter?

I like the idea of combining the two magic bows. That being said I think you at least one more ranged unit if not two. The two bows have different merits, so I would add at least one unit of archers if not two. Two will give you a much better possible placement of your characters in the deployment.

For special units I think I would go with PG. You have 5 Bolt throwers, and 3S5 shots, more than enough to scare/deal with heavily armored knights. You need something to take care of those 50 clan rats. Once the knights have been decimated the PG can easily do the rest.

I think I would only go with one mage, however that is a hard choice. Regarding Lore I'm all in for High, but I think the Lore choice to a large extent are Meta dependent. I see quite a lot of skaven and DE both places where high is very good. Also I think you need a lore with a lot of damage output so you can use your mage as another damage source.

Thanks for the comments Dragon fire.

I'm not too concerned (pre-play test) about character placement, which admittedly pretty much dictates itself here: mages with BotWD lions; alith with them too so he can pick a different target to the sisters, and handmaiden with sisters to give QtF. That said, she can always move into them at no -1 cost due to QtF, so she could start with lions for splitting targets. But you're right - it could be an issue.

If I were to include archers I'd want it to be because they serve a role in their own right, rather than just being character bunkers. Pre-play test I'm not sure what role that would be. A unit of 15 at long range would hit with 7-8 shots, wound T3 with 3-4/T4 with 2-3, and then they'd get saves. It's not a lot. If I ran shadow I'd be up for it because the -T spell makes a huge difference and there's mindrazor in your back pocket. But I'm not sure whether the other lores help S3 arrows enough? High would if it were a big unit (a horde of 30 would be nice ) but with smaller units the augment is relatively weaker. But at the same time, I may simply not have enough arrows and bolts in my current list for a shooty army! I guess the playtesting well tell...

You might be right on the PG front - definitely one to consider. What banner would you give them - BotWD or Razor? And would you run them as one big unit or two smaller ones?

Lore-wise I'm leaning towards Heavens at the moment, mostly because of bubble convergence and what that could do to 4xRBT if I deploy tight. If I'm super keen on that one spell then it's important for my Lv2 to be the same lore...this type of thing is where no silver wand and seerstaff hurt .

I think it'll be fun to run something different - I've got a game tonight vs a soft-ish WoC list so we'll see how it does.

I usually run my PG in one unit of 21 or 24 with razor standard. I generally think they are good enough against spells and magic weapons. If needed the before mentioned AM with high really gives this unit a defensive boost to a 3++. This could also be your lvl 2 having high lore? Put him with the PG for the lore attribute and to have the 2d6 soul quench (average appr. same damage as 8 sisters) otherwise this could come from you lvl 2 having the ring of fury.

Regarding High lore I have with success used a unit of 30 archers with mus a couple of times. Hitting on 2's is really nice, but if you run the in smaller numbers I think it will be less effective compared to heavens. I have never tried a bubbled Harmonic Convergence I could imagine it being a hit (if you know what I mean). I could also see the use for wind blast in shooting heavy list. Pushing a unit D6+2 backwards could potentially be really nice.

As a note. Do you plan not to go without a BSB in case you use the handmaiden? Personally I would go with the BSB just to get the rerolls.
I hope your list testing turns out well.

Dragon fire wrote:I usually run my PG in one unit of 21 or 24 with razor standard. I generally think they are good enough against spells and magic weapons. If needed the before mentioned AM with high really gives this unit a defensive boost to a 3++. This could also be your lvl 2 having high lore? Put him with the PG for the lore attribute and to have the 2d6 soul quench (average appr. same damage as 8 sisters) otherwise this could come from you lvl 2 having the ring of fury.

Yeah, I've always run my PG with Razor alongside WL with BotWD...but I'm new to running just one or the other. I think you're right though, if you are running a big block then they do just fine with razor...especially if you run high/ring.

Regarding High lore I have with success used a unit of 30 archers with mus a couple of times. Hitting on 2's is really nice, but if you run the in smaller numbers I think it will be less effective compared to heavens. I have never tried a bubbled Harmonic Convergence I could imagine it being a hit (if you know what I mean). I could also see the use for wind blast in shooting heavy list. Pushing a unit D6+2 backwards could potentially be really nice.

The idea of 3 Soul Quenches (Ring, Lv2, Lv4) is ! Only works at close range, but the enemy should be closing with us. I can see 30+High being nice too, though I'd be a bit concerned with such a large frontage. Also, unless you ran the Lv2 also on High you're not guaranteed Hand of Glory, and without it (or equivalent boost from other lores) I question their value in an all-comers list. At long range 15 hit. vs T3 that's 7-8 wounds. at T4 its only 5...and that's before armour saves. I can't think of anything better vs scaven, non-orc gobbos, non-knight empire, maybe even VC...but against armies with fewer good targets it might be tricky to get their worth.

I ran with Heavens tonight. Verdict: bubbled convergence makes bolt throwers a lot more reliable, but goddamnit, even with just 4W, daemon princes still have 4++ ward. I know everyone says bolt throwers keep them honest but I don't really know why. You have to hit, wound, get past ward and then only do D3W. If I played them I'd go balls out and dare you to fire everything at me! Also, worth bearing in mind that if you plan your tactics around it (as I did) it has a big impact on deployment and movement. On balance, I think I favour either this bubble spell or a hex (Withering) rather than single unit boosts.

As a note. Do you plan not to go without a BSB in case you use the handmaiden? Personally I would go with the BSB just to get the rerolls.

I ran handmaiden - the idea of 15 S&S with S4AP and 3S5 followed by 3 ranks of ASF on something which by rights should already be whittled down was too much to give up on. Also, with BS7 and QtF she is very reliable - unless shooting through cover it's only ever possible for her to miss on 1's, and with harmonic convergence that should be re-roll-able. But it didn't work out - the unit was too juicy a target in a poor saturation field. Also, not having a BSB hurt! I wish they'd designed her more flexibly. If she added QtF to her unit (any unit) then she makes sea-guard more interesting or archers more flexible. If she could be a BSB she would be a no brainer even without sisters in most reaver BSB lists. But as she is her specificity really restricts her to the role of reaver PoS extrordinaire/big sister unit booster...

I hope your list testing turns out well.

Post to follow - was a disaster, but learnt a lot!

So my game 1 was a disaster, but I learnt a lot from it. I'm not posting a 'proper' bat rep as it was his game from deployment, and certainly once his initial charges all got in. But I'll give a run through of what I learnt, which should be more interesting.

My list:
Alith Anar
Lv4 Heavens, BoH, 4++
Lv2 Heavens, Khaine Ring, Scroll
Handmaiden, Reaver Bow, Pot of Strenght, Enchanted Shield
3x5 Reavers, spear+bow, muso
2x6 Silver Helms, shields, banner
25x White Lions, FC, BotWD
15x Sisters
4x RBT


Warriors of Chaos:
Nurgle DP; 1+/4++, charmed shield, Lv4 Nurgle
BSB on Monstrous Beast, stuff
5 dogs
18*Nurgle Warriors Halberds
18*Khorne Warriors 2xHW
3*'Crushers with ensorcelled weapons
1 Gorebeast Chariot
6*Trolls
1 Hellcannon


Lesson 1: The aim of the game with this list is to deploy as far away from the enemy as possible.

I knew this. I had a hill in my deployment zone to deploy my bolt throwers on with my sisters and lions in front and my cav spread out. And I didn't. He deployed his hellcannon on the hill in the opposite board corner and I got intimidated by its longer range and felt I had to start closer and get towards him or else he, chaos, with one lone hellcannon, would win the shooting game*!

I rightly drew his foot slogging troops out on what would have been the far right flank using my heavy cavalry as bait (if he had deployed more centrally they could have either gone for the hellcannon or threatened the flank/rear of his army...although they're not a huge threat to anything in his list). But when he placed his unit of 6* trolls there I mindfarted bad time and thought "Hang on, I've only got 24"+5" walk range on my flaming bows...I need to deploy my sisters opposite them!" What was I thinking?? And from there it all went wrong, with both of us focussing on my right flank with deployment. Sure enough, he closed the gap quickly and overwhelmed me.

Lesson 2: By all means flee with reavers...but give the poor guys a chance!

I knew that in this type of list reavers are golden - especially vs this army which has little in the way of Magic Missiles and nothing for small arms fire...I should be able to flee, rally, flee, rally etc and really slow his advance - all the while shooting him with the big guns (bolts). But while swiftstride essentially adds +2 to their flee vs non swiftstride...remember they add their base movement, so for a basic warrior you want to be over 2" distant to be likely to escape, and every extra inch increases it further...so long as you still block their movement arcs, stay as far back as possible! I had one unit caught, another fled, failed to rally and ran off...only my third unit survived the game...of all my troops...having seen off the dogs and slowed the khorne warrior advance. A bit unlucky on the rally but I deserved to be caught by khorne for baiting them so close.

Lesson 3: When facing stone thrower type armies, deploy in a long line!

The model count in this list is really, *really* low. The big block of sisters only works well if it remains intact enough to stand and shoot with lots of shots. The big block of lions only does anything if they're alive. As it was I lost most of both units to the hellcannon, and to add insult to injury, my Ld10 Alith Lions then fled the board on their panic check!

Lesson 4: BSB’s can save the day!

OK, so I knew this one already, but I already had 4 heroes and the usual reaver/PoS role was taken in this list by the handmaiden, so I went without. I paid the price with Alith Anar, the Shadow King, and his bodyguard of white lions, fleeing the table after 14 got killed by a hellcannon shot and they failed their -1Ld panic check.

Lesson 5: Remember to drink the potion
Because ‘start of the phase’ is such an out of sequence miscellaneous time, I always forget to do this at the critical point. I’m thinking during their turn “don’t forget” and my turn rolls around and I’m like…OK, so first it’s declare charges, then don’t forget to rally fleeing reavers…D’oh! In this case it probably cost me the DP, as well as the unit of sisters and AM he ate, although the game was over by that point (it was over by deployment really, but some super-long charges and my combat block running off didn’t help).

OK, question for the Ulthuan HiveMind before I post my new list.

In this game I made a bad boo-boo early on in deployment and deployed opposite my opponent rather than corner-to-corner (in so far as is possible matching deployment drops). I recognise that mistake and it cost me the game, even more than dice, luck or in-turn decisions.

But...I've done the maths and the hellcannon can reach from one corner of the board to the other. While it would be boring, he could simply out-gun me with his one gun and keep everything else safely out of range.

Also, if I had all my bolt throwers clustered on the hill (ideal for bubbled harmonic convergence!) he could easily target 1+ at a time with the hellcannon. I think I'm OK; unless it's a direct hit he's only scoring wounds on 6's, but with that density of bolt throwers a direct hit isn't outlandish, and D6 wounds should kill it outright.

Would you deploy on the hill and dare him to come towards you or dare him to stay at 60" and slowly bombard you? Or would you deploy closer?

Hunters of the Shadowlands: Alith Anar Bowline v2 @2,400

Lords: 540
Alith Anar, the Shadow King
Lv4 Archmage; Celestial; Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown, Ironcurse Icon (Sympetrum, Shadow Seer)

Heroes: 325
BSB: Reaver Bow, PoS, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour (Lestes Shadow Stalker)
Mage Lv2; Celestial: Dispel Scroll/Ring (Orthetrum, Apprentice Seer)

Rare: 476
4x RBT (Lileath’s Tears)
2x7 Maiden Guard (Shadow Stalkers)

CORE: 603
6xSH(sh)+st (Nagarythe Nobles)
14x Archers+FC(The Raven Guard)
5xreavers(sp)+mus (Warders of the Phoenix Gate)
5xreavers(sp)+mus (Warders of the Phoenix Gate)
5xreavers(inc bow+sp)+mus (Warders of the Phoenix Gate)

Special: 456
15 Phoenix Guard; full command; flame banner (Wardens of Khaine’s Shrine)
12 White Lions; full command; gleaming pennant (Lion Fang Hills Walkers)

84 models (counting RBTs as 1 model)
2,400 points on the nose

********

So why the changes?

1) I liked the reliability of the Handmaiden, and if I'd remember to take the potion, she'd have done very well. But a big block of maiden guard are just too vulnerable to too much. I lose the very exciting S&S option by reducing them down to MSU units, but I gain the ability to spread their fire against multiple chaffy opponents or regen opponents, I gain some protection from magic (via multiple targets) and I get more drops. In all, a good trade off I think. But without the big block the role of the handmaiden is diminished, so she has been switched for a BSB. I like having BSBs so I'm glad he's back. BS6 and no QtF will feel sad next to her, but he's good ol' reliable so I'm happy.

2) In a largely sit-back-and-wait list like this, big infantry blocks are just too vulnerable to stone throwers, and with my other block now split, the lions present nothing but a big target sign. Yes I could deploy them wider, but I don't want to block shooting arcs or have them forced into a deployment I don't want. To be fair, I probably could do more with them as a block if I tried, but I was wondering from the start whether two guard units would be better than 1 even just from the perspective of flexibility. I think they would be better in two units so I split them.

3) I also don't think in an all-comers list white lions are best suited to be the back-line because I might need to deal with swarm armies which just rush my bowline. I've therefore switched one of the units for pheonix guard (which should also weather rock throwers better, and now with smaller units BotWD not being so viable, magic too). However, I've kept one unit of lions in case any hard nuts break through the lines, as usually PG sport the razor banner, but with such small units I didn't fancy spending the points on it. I went for flame on the PG to help with building assaults and vs regen (if need be) and to free the lions up as character killers (dragonbane) if need be. I went for gleaming on the lions because it's cheap and not everything can be within 12" of the BSB. That said, it would probably be viable to have one big unit of PG (with razor?) given their 4++ ward, especially with the khaine ring.

4) I switched a unit of silver helms for archers, and dropped some reaver bows to pay for the command. I'm not clear what role the helms played in the previous list. I think one unit is still useful to have (e.g. skink spam scares reavers!) but two weren't necessarily that helpful, and a unit of archers in three ranks can quite happily baby sit with the bolt throwers. It's also another character bunker, giving me more flexibility for splitting my targetting.

********

Open Questions:

1. Magic Lores. Currently I'm going to continue trying with Celestial. I didn't really get to try it last game because I swear all my magic phases were 2:1, and I still IF bubble convergence on 3 dice two or three times! While the DP's ward frustrated me, this is a great PoS delivery mechanism and makes up for the RBT single shot's greatest weakness - hitting the damn thing. And of course, if archers or sisters are nearby they boost too.

2. Do I need the Lv2? He's really there as a scroll/ring caddy and to ensure desired spell selection. But if I dropped him I could shift both onto the AM (at the cost of BoH) and get another unit. Possibly shadow warriors. Possibly boost PG/Lions. Possibly add a second PG/Lion unit.

3. Pheonix Guard - one big unit or two smaller ones (2nd currently being lions)?

RE: white lion horde - how would you play this unit? Advance agressively? Sit back and wait?

I think it's potentially too big to be properly maneuverable, can only tackle one unit at once, and in theory S6 is less important than ASF S4 in this list, although I'm sure that'd be meta-dependent. If you do go big block rather than smaller units, what was your thinking on WL rather than PG? Particularly as WL benefit the least from Shadow. I'm sure big blocks are viable and I'm sure WL are too (I started my list that way after all!), but I'd like to hear your thoughts on why.

RE: no second mage. What spells are you really hoping for in shadow? Withering obviously, mindrazor probably. Miasma is useful too. But against a lot of armies the others aren't that useful. In a monster-free elf list, what are you going to pit/penundulum? I think withering is too useful to risk not getting, and that is where the Lv2 comes in. But I'm a bit cagey about shadow because there's an obvious priority spell to dispel (before combat is entered) and that is withering. With heavens you can draw dice on comet or lightening. Even with high you can draw them on most things before hand of glory. I'm not knocking shadow, it's an ace lore, but I don't think it's as go to as it might be in other lists or in 7th here.

Minor question, but if you're going shadow aren't you tempted to make the archers at least x15? That way you still get full S&S, smaller frontage (compared to three units) and more ASF attacks in combat...with Mindrazor option.

I think one mage will be able to do it. I think you have around 10% risk of not getting the spell you really want. BoH on AM is just great and the chance to get to use your ring probably low. The greatest thing about the book is that all the cast's that before was 60 or 75% bow are quite reliable. I think it's a great item. Almost too good to pass up.
As written in the former post I think Heavens will suit you. having either comet (counter to hell cannons?), Urannons or chain lightning is also quite hard spells.

I would go for one unit of PG. But the idea about eagles is good. I really like them. However you would be able to use your current SH's much the same way. They can be sacrificial chaff while working flankers, mage hunters etc.

With the points saved from your mage you could add a chariot or a small unit of SM's or WL's.

Cheers for the comments. At the moment I feel that this list needs magic support but I'll play around with the options. One thing to consider is what I would spend the points on otherwise. Options for me include 5 dragon princes, another small unit of WL or PG or boosting numbers in one or both of these. I'm not really a fan of chariots and I'd fear for my swordmasters. But as it stands, I'm not convinced I need any of these elements in the list so I'll stick with the Lv2 for now. I'd love to have eagles, but as they come from rare (where I'm tight) I'd rather cover their roles from core as best I can.

YouTube BatRep done by my opponent now up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syfBxxH1_F4