Ulthuan

High Elves Turn 1



Alexandra surveyed the ruins of the village she'd so recently captured from its greenskin occupiers. Before they could even repair the damaged buildings, the enemy had returned, and seeming in greater numbers, for this time many dozens of goblins in dark cloaks could be seen marching across the horizon. Even more alarming, they were attacking from the same side from which her army had marched only days before. Was there no end to the sea of fungal foes?

Interestingly, it looked like a true Orc Warboss had wrested command of the tribe from the great shaman who had escaped the battle before. Even worse, he had stolen the wyvern as well, and he could be seen screaming some gibberish from atop the monster. The great shaman was sulking in a corner (or perhaps scheming how to regain control of the army after the Warboss's demise?).

Fortunately, she had been able to set up her forces in secret behind the harassing cavalry screen of her reaver regiments. The ploy had worked, and before the Orc Warboss had prepared his troops, her troops began to advance!



***


Magic (11v6): For once, Alexandra felt fully in command of the flow of magic in the area, and she focused it clearly on her foes. As a warmup, she tossed a small fireball at the river trolls opposite her. It struck home, but somehow had no effect! Undeterred, she cast Shem's Burning Gaze, which burned one troll to a crisp and wounded a second! Iceshard Blizzard on the rock lobba was dispelled by the great shaman, which allowed her to cast Spirit Leech on the boar chariot. This attempt was stopped by a dispel scroll, so she used the last of her power to unleash the Fury of Khaine onto a Mangler Squig, completely destroying it.

In shooting, the river trolls were left with only a single, wounded, troll alive. The second magler was destroyed, and the western wolf riders were reduced to a single, fleeing, goblin! Many more night goblins fell to a hail of simple arrows as well. In fact, so effective was the elven shooting and magic that Carmen was left with no targets for her Reaver Bow! She decided to use the time to check her makeup in a small mirror she always carried.

When the second mangler fell to shooting, we rolled a panic test for the orc great shaman, who was standing alone behind the ruins. He failed (rolling 11) and fled from the nearby eagle, rolling 11 for distance. This took him through the Warboss/Wyvern and straight off the table! The Warboss then panicked as well, (rolling an 11), and also fled off the table! This was an incredible turn of events, with Jimmy losing something like 1,000 points on my first turn. We then looked up the rules for "Size Matters" and realized that Orcs don't take panic tests from mangler squigs, so we put the two lords back on the table. Close call!



Orcs and Goblins Turn 1



The Orc Warboss was not impressed with the quality of the goblin troops he'd brought along! He had been promised immensely powerful troops, but it looked like they were collapsing in great numbers before his orcs were even in position!

His consternation only increased as the fleeing goblin to the east continued by riding off a cliff. Next, this ridiculous-looking pump wagon crashed into some night goblins, killing seven of them! He ordered his remaining troops to regroup and reinforce the eastern flank, hoping to break through around the tower and into the village.

Both spellcasters shifted into the eastern, already dwindled night goblin unit and prepared for some magic!



***


Magic (8v5): The great shaman, having had no luck with the Foot of Gork recently, decided to try teleporting his unit forward and unleashing some fanatics against the unwary heavy cavalry of the enemy! His casting attempt was brilliantly executed, and Alexandra decided to save her power for now. The goblins and wizards reappeared near the surprised dragon princes and the fanatics popped out, but they must have been dizzy from their journey through the portal, and they couldn't build up enough speed to reach the knights.

Next, the great shaman once again attempted to call down Gork's wrath, but he was too dizzy as well and couldn't get the words right. Gork just laughed at him from somewhere up in the clouds.

Shooting was relatively uneventful, though one doom diver did manage to crash into a bolt thrower and damage it!



High Elves Turn 2



Alexandra's forces were in position and she ordered the attack! To the east, the archers surged into the flank of the exposed goblin troop, while the phoenix flew into the side of the wounded troll. Two more fanatics, screeching, spun out of the western goblin unit. One crashed into the eagle and shashed its skull with a huge flailing strike! The other went for the phoenix but couldn't quite reach it.

The other elven forces pressed the advantage, sweeping around the sides and as far away from fanatics as possible!



***


Magic (3v2): It seemed that the magical forces in the area had been somewhat exhausted by the reckless castings of the great shaman, leaving precious little for Alexandra to work with. Still, she managed a miasma of fog onto the river troll, along with a fireball and a khaine's fury onto the night goblins, slaying ten of them!

Shooting was a bit less impressive, with ten goblins dying and a couple of wolf riders falling from their makeshift saddles.

In close combat, the phoenix managed to wound the river troll, but it clung to life and refused to budge (the Warboss was far away, but just close enough to keep an eye on things)! In the east, the goblins lost seven of their number and fled, while the archers restrained pursuit and watched the goblins crash through their own fanatics! They only hit one fanatic, however, and though seven more goblins died, the unit survived with enough members to potentially rally and cause more trouble.



Orcs and Goblins Turn 2



The goblins did indeed rally, though they were beset on all sides and out of options! Perhaps the hand of Gork could once again come to their aid?

To the west, the boar chariot swerved around both swamp and fanatic, crashing into the flank of the phoenix. Would be it able to swing the battle? The pump wagon, fresh from its easy victory over the night goblins, charged forward again at the eastern skycutter, but the snotlings manning the pumps couldn't pump hard enough to reach their target.

One fanatic crashed into a dilapidated building, ruining days of repair work the elves had been doing! The other two just spun off in wild directions, confused perhaps by massive mushroom overdoses.

The Orc Warboss decided to abandon his left flank and focus on the east. Though it seemed unlikely that they could take the village today, perhaps they could at least destroy some of these fragile elven regiments!



***


Magic (9v5): The great shaman drew together as much power as he could muster and channeled a massive incantation for the foot of Gork! Only a miraculous attempt from Alexandra could stop the attempt. She mustered as much power as possible and began to form the sigils--perfect! The dispel attempt was irresistible and the great shaman roared in frustration.

In shooting, the rock lobba once again missed, but a doom diver crashed directly into Carmen! She spotted the thing careening out of the sky toward her, raised her charmed shield, and braced for impact. The sun was in her eyes, though, and she failed to block the attack! The goblin crashed into her and--nothing! It was friendly goblin after all. (Jimmy rolled a direct hit, then a "1" for number of hits. I then rolled "1" for charmed shield! He then rolled "1" to wound!)

In combat, the chariot hit home with amazing ferocity, scoring seven hits against the phoenix. Due to the blizzard slowing it down, however, the hits weren't very powerful, and the phoenix was only wounded twice (still pretty good!). In return, the phoenix did some major damage to the contraption, and though momentum threatened to force the phoenix away, it was able to easily hold the line and wait for reinforcements.



***
Foreseeing the total destruction of his army in the near future, the Orc Warboss decided that enough was enough. He cut his losses and flew away, leaving the two shamans to fend for themselves against the lightning fast elven cavalry!

Alexandra's forces did not pursue the greenskins, but rather set to work improving the village's fortifications in order to defend against the inevitable next attack.

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my MSU army list/battle reports

Analysis:

Well, my shooting and magic went above and beyond in this game! I was rolling just a little above average for all my bow shots in my first turn, and the magic phase just showed the power of the Book Loremaster with ring of fury on a big magic phase, combined with some poor luck for dispel rolling.

The first magic phase I used:


Fireball (2 dice)
Shem's (2 dice)
Blizzard (2 dice)
10+ Spirit Leech (3 dice)
FoK (2 dice)

Jimmy allowed the fireball (which did no wounds), but spent 3 dice to dispel my Shem's on the trolls rolling horribly. I had rolled [5,1] to cast the Shem's and rerolled it to [5,6], giving a massive 13 on the spell. He then rolled something like [1,2,4] and the spell went through! He then used his last 3 dice to stop my iceshard blizzard, forcing a scroll for spirit leech and allowing RoF to kill a mangler.


Then, in the second magic phase, with only 3 dice, I used:

Miasma (1 die)
Fireball (1 die)
FoK (1 die)

He allowed the miasma, then rolled a single die to stop Fireball, getting a [1]. I only got a [3] on FoK, but on his single remaining die he got a [2]. So I got 3 spells with 3 dice: again the power of the Book, plus some poor dispel luck.


***
All that being said, Jimmy's list focused on highly destructive, fragile elements. This made it an intrinsically good matchup for my shooting/magic missile spam army, I think. After the battle, he lamented that his fast elements just got removed too quickly, and his slow elements were too slow to do anything, especially when placed on the defensive after the first round. He theorized that it was a mistake to regroup and fall back on his turn one; he should have just been aggressive with his untouched cavalry and wyvern lord and tried to break through his right flank. I think his list might do quite well against someone without too much BS shooting or magic missiles, like VC, Dwarves, or WoC.

After losing some of his front line, he felt forced to fall back and try for some risky plays/hope for some magic to get him back on his feet. He wasn't able to get any effective Foot of Gork castings (and I don't have much that is vulnerable to such a spell), his gambit with Hand of Gork backfired, and it didn't look like he had much of a chance for a comeback, so we called it since I needed to get ready for work.

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my MSU army list/battle reports

That first turn was epic! Clearly Jimmy needs to work on his rolling for the first turn!

I think that battle report shows how good a Loremaster with the book can be in the right circumstances and just how versatile he is. The first time I tried him he got sucked to his doom after a 3 dice IF fireball on turn 1! hehe

It's hard really to read too much else into that game when it was so one sided. It's great when things come together like that as planned to such spectacular effect!

Yes, Loremasters continually seem to demonstrate their affinity for 2-dice and 3-dice Cascades! Just keep trying =)

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my MSU army list/battle reports

I'm considering dropping the swordmasters and the star lance. This would give me 105 points, allowing a 6th sister (considered by many mathhammerers as a good idea) and... a skycutter!

I have found that the units of swordmasters just weren't helping my list much. Their size was not really the issue; there were uses for units that size, provided I could get them to the right locations. Rather I had difficulty getting them where I needed them. This change will give me a bit more flexibility, some more hitting power, better board control, and a bit more shooting of course.

The list would look like so:


330 Lords
Loremaster – Shield of the Merwyrm, Tormentor Sword, Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury: 330

211 Heroes
Noble – BSB, Dragon Armor, Lance, Charmed Shield, Reaver Bow, Strength Potion, Eagle: 211

630 Core
18 Archers - S+M: 200
18 Archers - S+M: 200
5 Reavers - S+M, Bows/Spears: 115
5 Reavers - S+M, Bows/Spears: 115

745 Special
10 Phoenix Guard - S, Discipline: 175
5 Princes - S, Eternal Flame: 165
Lion Chariot: 120
Lothern Skycutter: 95
Lothern Skycutter: 95
Lothern Skycutter: 95

584 Rare
Frost Phoenix: 240
6 Sisters: 84
RBT: 70
RBT: 70
RBT: 70
Eagle: 50

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my MSU army list/battle reports

I think your proposed change is a good one, MSU thrives on speed.
Although I understand why you proposed dropping the star lance, I think it does add a valuable element to the army. Understanding that MSU relies on gradually wearing down the enemy until you can arrange the perfect deathblow, the Starlance gave you that one very hard hitting unit. It's nice to have that in your toolkit.
But all in all, I think it's a solid change.

One problem with the Star Lance is that there's always the looming question as to its legality. That definitely clouds the fun level for me, if I'm not 100% sure the list is legit. This way, there's no issue and I can play with no regrets!'

The Dragon Princes were also my most expensive/fragile unit on the table (other than the BSB), so this helps bring them more into line.

Perhaps with an FAQ I will bring the item back! Though actually, I am pretty far away from acquiring a third Skycutter model, so I may stick with the previous version for a bit. We have Dark Elf, Empire, and Ogre players (and maybe a Daemon as well?) joining our gaming group, so I'll have some new opponents coming up soon.

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my MSU army list/battle reports

Your list is starting to diverge so, so far from my 'comfort zone' that I can't really comment very usefully on it in the latest format. You've gone from a semi-traditional (if there is even such a thing) MSU base to what I might almost expect to see posted under the heading 'chariot list'. I'm really wary of chariots, though I know they've worked for you, but I'd think they're best below a threshold value - too many points sunk into them and you'll struggle to bring any further force to bear beyond the initial charge (even with lion chariots). How would you deal with unbreakable units, or worse, armies? I know undead are traditionally considered to be a difficult match-up for bretts, who risk their knights getting locked into a grind through swathes of zombies and I'd worry you'd have similar issues. Or maybe deamons, with their 5++ vs impact hits and unbreakable and limited crumble.

I've only recently started experimenting with the star lance and I'm not 100% convinced by it, though I was never a S7 person to begin with (I think I just basked in the cheap S6 ASF re-rollable greatswords of the last book too long). I know rationally higher strength and/or no AS are sooooo good, but I generally trust lances or lions (or reaver potion or at a pinch sisters/RTBs) to cover those bases. I guess it is an awesome weapon (and fairly costed) but I think we have other tools to cover those needs, albeit perhaps not so many in your list.

Also, incidentally, first spell last game: 4 diced Lv2 fireball (not many spells in range) and lost 3 wizard levels. Grrrr!

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The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support

@ Ferny
Against VC, unbreakable isn't an issue if you can deal enough damage with combat resolution. Their deepest units are also their easiest to destroy, and if something gets too deep that you can't whittle it down with shooting, you'll have to avoid it I suppose! Honestly I'm more frightened of Crypt Horrors. In my games against VC, units of 30-50 skeletons/zombies haven't been an issue; I can reduce these quickly with shooting/magic missiles and then win on the charge (especially with phoenix).

Daemons are even more susceptible to S3 shooting, so you shouldn't be too worried. My friend is starting the hobby with a Daemons army so we'll see, though! In general I'd suppose that Daemons and VC are some of my best matchups, given their susceptibility to shooting and magic missiles (particularly Shem's). I have little to fear from regenerating or ethereal units either. Tomb kings might be a different story, however. S3 shooting is excellent against their monstrous constructs, I suppose, but I might not have answers for some of their other threats. Speed is our friend here, I suppose.

Other unbreakable foes are more worriesome (like Daemon Prince from the WoC book), or stubborn characters. I will have to deal with those with shooting, I suppose, though the Phoenix can perhaps help against them once again, if they're not too nasty. Things like Slayers are of course easy to shoot, as are giants.

Deep steadfast blocks of armored troops (dwarves, WoC) might be very difficult for me. Archers can help if they can achieve a flank charge, perhaps? These are foes I might need to avoid at all costs.

As you say, the list is turning toward single-model spam. In that light, can it compete with other armies' single-model spam (WoC, DoC?). My chariots certainly don't compare in the stats department, and my shooting and magic aren't very effective against their tough chariots, I fear.


Sucks about the miscast in your game. 4 dice is very dangerous, though! I'd try to stick with 3 at the absolute highest. I made that mistake once of not moving my loremaster into 24" of things first turn, and now I try to plan very carefully. Sometimes you just have to not cast anything, maybe?

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my MSU army list/battle reports

Please humour my ignorance. What's the looming question as to it's legality?

@Gandalf:
Many people question whether the Star Lance is legal on a Drakemaster (dragon prince champion). They certainly make a reasonable argument. I'm not really comfortable with double-checking with my opponent whenever I take this item, and I feel a twinge of guilt whenever I use it, so yeah, it makes it less fun. I definitely think it's a legal build, but I also see the other side of the argument as very convincing and I don't like stepping on people's toes, especially when it's such a marginal thing.

That is to say, it's unclear whether it's really a good item for the Drakemaster in the first place, so why push the issue? I think it's a bit of a shame. but it does give me room to field another skycutter if I want =).


So, if I were to drop the Drakemaster/Starlance combo (40 points) and possibly the Swordmasters, for a total of 105, what other ideas would be good? The lack of elite infantry is unsettling, but I'm finding more and more that they are superfluous and even a liability in my games. Maybe it's just been my luck or poor usage, but I haven't had much success at all with Swordmasters or White Lions in the new book (using MSU or otherwise; I don't post reports on games with other lists), which is why I'm trending away from them here. I will leave the 5 swordmasters in for now, as I don't want to paint another skycutter at this time.

I wonder how else to spend those 40 points? Upgrades for the eagles? I could spend 30 points right there. Champion for the Phoenix Guard? Musician for the Dragon Princes? An extra sister? There are definitely some holes I could fill in with the 40 points from the Starlance.

Simply dropping the Lance (keeping the champion) and adding a 6th Dragon Prince is one interesting idea.

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my MSU army list/battle reports

My concern against VC would be invokation spam - if you don't outright destroy the unit on the charge with combined damage output and CR then all they need is one semi-decent magic phase (really not even that decent!) and they can boost numbers back up and tie down your chariots more or less indefinitely...I'm particularly wary of it due to the random nature of impact hits! I've just started toying with some VC lists as I have the mantic boxed set and while the more aggressive list (bus, 2x terrorgheists, core wolf darts, maybe a couple of zombie units) looks most efficient, I'm also enjoying the hordes of shambling undead idea (skeleton bus, surrounded by units of 20-40 zombies, with mortis engine and corpse cart support, one unit of crypt horrors, and just grow the force as you shamble towards the enemy). I don't like how slow the vampire is to get into combat here, but this is the sort of thing I think you might struggle with. Mine is maybe an extreme example but it illustrates where I'm coming from.

Regarding stubborn characters (e.g. WoC) I think everyone struggles with these. Reading the threads I think people would suggest that you have enough shooting to 'keep them honest', but honestly they're difficult.

I'd maybe think more about deep, steadfast, armoured blocks in the context of new dwarfs. I had a game on Monday against a relatively inexperienced player with a fairly sub-optimal list (thank goodness - 'true' dwarf lists scare the bejeezus out of me). Once I'd dealt with his war machines I managed to get a pheonix guard front/dragon prince flank charge combo in against a unit of sword and board longbeards. I was lucky to kill just enough to break steadfast and ran them down - the combo of PG ward, volume of attacks with ASF (this wasn't an MSU unit), razor banner, and 10 more ASF S10 flank attacks. I needed to take this out to gain enough points from the battle...but had they had GW then I don't know if I would have charged my cav in and it might have turned out very differently, especially if they weren't so deep and just put more attacks out. But with your list I'm not sure how you'd approach it - I guess rush forward with all the fastest elements, present target saturation, take out the war machines with what's left and then consider your options...

And yeah, I hadn't really thought about how you'd counter single model spam except in so far as you were becoming that (but I hadn't hit upon that term ). But yeah, I reckon WoC do it better . Thinking about it, Carmen with star lance and ToTS or lance, PoS, ToTS, crown and charmed shield would be a good counter to the disklord (and vs WoC might not get priority shotted by the hellcannon, their only real shooting, given the pheonix and other threats).

To be honest though, most of my thoughts are 'in theory' and you seem to be rocking the list in practice, which means that while I can highlight what I reckon are tricky match ups, if you can prove yourself their better (which you can and do) then full kudos to you! I love that you're using such an original list to such good effect.

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The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support

Game 9: WoC

Played a game against Mark's WoC army last night!

He brought:

Daemon Prince of slaanesh
nurgle sorcerer
tzeench BSB

nurgle warriors with halberds and shields
tzeench warriors with shields
warhounds

dragon ogres
warshrine
hellcannon
gorebeast chariot



My list:

330 Lords
Loremaster – Dragonhelm, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown, Ring of Fury: 330 "Alexandra the Half-Dragon"


211 Heroes
BSB – Dragon Armor, Lance, Charmed Shield, Reaver Bow, Strength Potion, Eagle: 211 "Carmen"


630 Core
18 Archers - S+M: 200
18 Archers - S+M: 200
5 Reavers - Add Bows, M+S: 115
5 Reavers - Add Bows, M+S: 115


755 Special
5 Princes - C+S, Flaming, Star Lance: 205
10 Phoenix Guard - S, Discipline: 175
Lion Chariot: 120
Lothern Skycutter: 95
Lothern Skycutter: 95
5 Swords: 65


570 Rare
1 Frost Phoenix: 240
1 RBT: 70
1 RBT: 70
1 RBT: 70
5 sisters: 70
1 Eagle: 50



In search of lost magical artifacts, Alexandra's forces made landfall on the dark continent of Lustria. She found the enemy waiting for her in the deep jungle!


The buildings and skull temple are simply impassable terrain for this battle.

Alexandra's forces, despite their numbers, deployed with practiced discipline. The confines of the jungle cramped the regiments' movement somewhat, and they decided upon an unusually compact formation. Would this be the correct tactic?

Aided by the reliable scouting of the skycutters and the harassing movements of the reaver regiments, the elves were able to organize their forces quickly enough to move first!


to be continued. . . (click)

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my MSU army list/battle reports

This was a very similar list to the last time we played, so let me flesh it out so everyone can get a good picture of the army.

-Daemon Prince - Daemon of Slaanesh, Lv4 Lore of Slaanesh, Wings, Chaos Armor, Scaled Skin, Charmed Shield, Other Trickster's Shard, Flaming Breath, Soul Feeder.
-Exalted Hero (BSB) - Mark of Tzeentch, Magic Shield, Talisman of Preservation
-Chaos Sorceror - Mark of Nurgle, Lv2 Lore of Nurgle, Dispel Scroll

23 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Nurgle, Halberds, Shields, FC, Banner of Swiftness
19 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, FC
7 Chaos Warhounds
3 Dragon Ogres - Additional Hand Weapons
Warshrine - Mark of Tzeentch
Hellcannon
Gorebeast Chariot - Mark of Nurgle

While not exactly the toughest list ever made, it's a pretty tough one that has most of its points tied up in 3 units (the daemon prince and warrior units).

High Elves Turn 1:



Alexandra knew the key to victory would be to whittle the enemy forces down at range while waiting for the Daemon Prince to come in view of the bolt throwers. He was hidden in a forest for now, so she directed her ranged forces to fire at targets of opportunity for the time being. Her bodyguard marched forward to be in range for some magic.

Her skycutters rotated into position, and Carmen swooped westward to unleash a volley against the nurgle warriors.

The phoenix and eagle hid behind an eerie ancient shrine, surveying the center from that vantage point. Agressive flanking moves from the Reavers saw them ready to harass the enemy flanks from all angles.



***

opening shots

Magic (5v4): Alexandra began by pouring just a small amount of power into a fireball, testing the enemy's magical defenses. Unfortunately, even after consulting her Book of Hoeth, she couldn't get the incantation perfect, and she thought she detected the piercing cackle of the slaaneshi Daemon Prince in the distant woods.

Carmen and her shooting forces stepped forward to cover Alexandra while she recovered her concentration. The nurgle warriors' armor proved nearly impenetrable, however, and almost no damage was done. On the east, the archers displayed exceptional accuracy, destroying the warhounds in one volley. The nearby dragon ogres were also heavily wounded, though all three continued trudging forward.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 1:



The Daemon Prince ordered a general march forward, while he himself swooped over to hide just on the other side of the ruined shrine. Only the warshrine fell back behind its own lines, doubtless intent on some mischief.



***


Magic (5v3): The Daemon Prince cleared his throat and unleashed a shrill scream, which pierced through the ruined temple and into the phoenix's eardrums. The effect was powerful, as the great bird was heavily wounded! Furthermore, it seemed confused by the noises and couldn't focus on the battle as usual. To the west, the nurgle sorcerer attempted to summon some extra flesh to protect his friends but couldn't dig deep enough into the nether realm and the spell fizzled.

In shooting, the hellcannon attempted to finish off the phoenix, but its shot was slightly off-target. Still, even the moderate force of the peripheral blast was enough to further wound the already weakened phoenix, and it was left barely clinging to life! The Daemon Prince drew back his head and considered unleashing a firey blast of breath onto the nearby reavers, but had second thoughts, as they were barely in range after all.




High Elves Turn 2:



The phoenix, still dazed from the beating it had just taken, stumbled forward several inches toward the enemy.

Fearless of the enemy chariot in the river, Alexandra's bodyguard stepped forward once again. Other units circled into better positions for shooting and countercharges. The western reavers circled behind the warshrine, daring it to step forward and be charged in the rear. The eastern reavers, however, must have been terrified of the monstrosity before them, because they froze like deer in headlights.

The lion chariot crept forward, beyond the building, to threaten the flanks of the implacably marching warriors.




***


Magic (9v5): Alexandra felt the winds blowing in her favor, and she unleashed a barrage of spells. A fireball was dispelled by the Daemon Prince, but shem's burning gaze struck the nurgle warriors. They emerged unscathed from that spell! An iceshard blizzard surrounded the furious hellcannon, but the loremaster couldn't seem to master the correct sigils to unleash spirit leech on the tzeench exalted hero, despite channeling plenty of power into the spell! She shook her head in frustration but still had enough presence of mind to pour the last of her energy into her ring of khaine, pointing it at the nurgle warriors. Once again, their armor proved true, and only one warrior fell.

In shooting, the warriors once again proved impervious to the hail of arrows and bolts aimed their way. The western bolt thrower aimed at the enemy gorebeast chariot but missed as well! On the east, two dragon ogres fell to combined shooting, but the last one lumbered forward mercilessly.




Warriors of Chaos 2:



Looking to her side, Alexandra thought she detected an air of resolve amongst her clairvoyant bodyguard, even more grim than usual. Why should they be concerned? The only threat was the fairly distant chariot, and the distance between them was littered with hazardous terrain. Furthermore, she could feel the magical hum of the shield of saphery surrounding them; they would be very safe for the time being.

She was therefore not alarmed when the chariot did begin to pick up speed, crashing through the river and into the deep woods where she stood with her phoenix guard. She readied her greatsword, passed down through generations of hoeth elite swordmasters, and prepared for combat.

Elsewhere, the warriors continued their march on all fronts, but, horrifyingly, the Daemon Prince himself soared into position amongst all her troops, preparing no doubt to unleash a piercing scream into all of her units on the eastern flank! Still, his positioning was dangerous, as he was now exposed to point-blank shots from the deadly bolt throwers. Would his gambit pay off? Alexandra's forces braced themselves for the impending cacophony.




***


Magic (8v5): The Daemon Prince drew deeply from the winds of magic, but wasn't able to draw enough power and the scream fell silent too quickly, with no harm done. Left with little remaining power, the nurgle sorcerer also attempted to cast a lesser spell, but he too was unsuccessful.

The hellcannon, having contained its rampaging tendencies, also found an opening in the blizzard and managed to unleash a firey projectile! It missed completely. The Daemon Prince also decided to conserve his energy and did not elect to use his breath weapon--perhaps his lungs were already spent from so much screaming?

In combat, the chariot, in order to dodge the bolt throwers, successfully navigate the dangerous terrain, and crash into the phoenix guard, had built up a great deal of momentum! The shield of saphery completely failed at that critical moment, and many of alexandra's bodyguard fell to the impact! Though she managed to dent the machine somewhat, they could not slow its terrible momentum, and the chariot forced its way through their ranks, crushing them all beneath its immense weight! It rumbled ever forward, slamming into the skycutter which was perched behind the general's unit.

Of the 5 wounds dealt to the phoenix guard, I only saved one with the 3+ ward! Alexandra was also wounded, though she dealt one wound in return. So I lost combat by 4! I needed a 6, rerollable, to hold. I rolled 7, then 7! Finally, I rolled a 4 for my flee distance. I was really thinking that offering this charge to the chariot was a fine decision. It needed a swiftstride 8 to succeed, going through two dangerous terrain tests as well, so there were plenty of chances for it to go wrong for him. Then, it seemed unlikely that I would lose combat, certainly not by more than 1 or 2. But now I'm questioning the decision! It was certainly risky to be that close (though he rolled a swiftstride 10 on the charge, so I would have needed to be 3 inches farther backward to be totally safe. I realized later than I really should have reformed 5-wide to accept this charge (though don't you lose steadfast in a forest?)



High Elves Turn 3:



Carmen siezed control of the forces. With plenty of hitting power left, she decided to take the fight to the warriors' infantry! She drank her strength potion, and she, the phoenix, the unengaged skycutter, and the lion chariot all declared charges on the tzeench warriors. However, Carmen's eagle was somehow distracted by the mayhem nearby and couldn't get airborne quickly enough! Worse, the phoenix, still evidently suffering from its wounds, could not cross the relatively short distance and close with the target either. Only the two chariots struck home--disaster! Simultaneously, the reavers, waving their banner bravely, charged into the rear of the tzeench warshrine.

The dragon princes lowered their lances and crashed into the exposed flank of the gorebeast chariot, hoping to avenge their fallen general.




***


The bolt throwers swung into action on the east, loading their heaviest bolts and aiming with deadly elven accuracy and point-blank range at the nearby Daemon Prince. However, the bolts must have been two heavy, and neither machine could hit its target! The western bolt thrower did opt for a flank shot against the nurgle warriors, and three of the huge men were skewered. A hail of arrows failed to bring any more down, however. On the east, the final dragon ogre was heavily wounded by elven bowfire, but he barely survived the onslaught!

In combat, the chariots were unable to deal much damage to the tzeench warriors, and that fight looked hopeless indeed. The dragon princes managed to dent the tough chariot, but it completely destroyed the skycutter in front of it, and it was therefore able to contain the momentum of the elven heavy cavalry.

The reavers took heavy casualties from the warshrine, but their momentum was still strong. Thanks to the watchful eye of the exalted battle standard bearer, though, the chariot held its ground! It was unable to reform, however, and the reavers remained behind it.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 3:



The Daemon Prince sensed that the spirit of his foe was broken, and he stepped forward into the rear of the dragon princes, to join the fray and finish things personally. The wounded dragon ogre stepped forward, intent on destroying the eagle harassing its front.




***


Magic (6v4): With no enemy spellcaster to vie against, the Daemon Prince once again raised a shattering scream, this time drawing so much power that the spell was irresistibly cast! The scream was earth-shattering, and elves in all directions perished in the terrifying mayhem! The phoenix was slain, the swordmasters decimated and forced to withdraw, the dragon princes unhorsed to a man, Carmen knocked to the ground, the sisters turned to ash, and bolt thrower left with no crew alive to man it! Only the eastern archers were left relatively unscathed, as only one toppled to the ground.


cacophonic indeed

Amongst the carnage, a hellcannon missile could be seen crashing into the ground, but there was nothing left to destroy. The tattered, leaderless remnants of the elven force gathered what they could and raced back to their ships, bearing their unconscious commanders on stretchers improvised from the oversized leaves of the jungle foliage.

result: ignominous defeat


analysis to follow

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I wouldn't put too much faith in dangerous terrain. Do chariots fail it on 1&2 not just 1? Even if so, you still only take a max of 2W off a 5?W model. And with swiftstride I think the average distance is 9 so the charge was likely. And you're right that forests remove steadfast (although they grant it to skirmishers). All that said, with a 3++ ward even if it did max impact hits you should still only be taking 2W, then you get a chance to wound it, then it strikes back. I don't know whether this combat works out in your favour, but 3++ should be huge!

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Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support

Elves turn 2 - had your pheonix of charged the gorebeast chariot here, would it have been flank or front? And what would you have needed to get in? And were you subject to stupidity or anything wierd from Slanesh at this point? If the flank were available I think this would be the perfect charge: high WS means you're still hitting on 4's, in the flank and charging for static res, with S6 (albeit no thunderstomp) and going first, with no gorebeast return attacks, and the charioteers at -1S against a T6 warded beast...and if you don't kill/flee it then there's not really anything (hellcannon?) which can counter-charge you. I find gorebeast chariots really tough to counter but this looks perfect.

Of course, I bet it's front arc, in which case it becomes much more of a gamble!

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Other than that I guess the failed combined charge (however unlikely) exposes one of the risks of chariot and MSU armies: redundancy comes from multiple units, not from within the units themselves. As such, if and when something like this happens those which make it in can't hit hard enough to win and will likely be picked off, while those which didn't will not (necessarily) offer sufficient threat without their support units.

Likewise, a good choir will finish off your army entirely!

In principle I think there are elements of this list you can take out quite nicely, and maybe a more agressive play would have worked better?

Frosty and chariots don't care about Nurgle or parries and so are well placed to deal with those warrior blocks (imagine 3 chariots and a frosty hitting home in a turn!). If you were able to squeeze in carmen or a unit of dragon princes the deal would be sealed. In a way this should be possible - shooting can deal with the hounds (as you did) leaving only the warshrine, chariot and the DP as blockers. Of course, that still leaves the flying DP to deal with (and I really don't know how we do that), but potentially your RBTs might help keep it honest?

Meanwhile, I think your shooting backline performed admirably and you managed to keep the dragon ogres well locked down. I'm not sure exactly what your plans were with the two reaver units though - they look out of position for fleeing...they actually look like you were setting up flank or rear charges?? I think if you can get helms into position to do that they're great, but except against select oponents (against this list maybe just chariots if that) the +2 rear and extra spear attacks will not balance the easy CR from killing reavers, unless they're supporting equally squishy units like lions/swordmasters/archers.

Thanks for the report - good to see lots of examples against WoC...now I just need to finish mine!

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Yeah, I wanted to charge it in to protect it, but it had random movement(d6) from the Choir spell. What an amazing spell! And it's a hex to boot.

You're absolutely right that I should have played more aggressive. Thanks for all the comments! Let me post some of my own analysis:


Deployment:
This was terrible! I don't know why I clumped up my forces like this. Dragon princes should have been on the far left, bolt throwers should have been more spaced, skycutters should have been spread out on the wings as well. Against this army, I need to spread out in order to play some avoidance before hitting home with charges. I knew that shooting could at best handle 1-1.5 enemy units before they hit me, so I was going to need to rely on good charges. Once my deployment was locked in, and he started marching toward me, I felt trapped! I should have been using the building on the left to separate his two warrior blocks and isolate them, while stringing out my troops to protect them from the Choir bombs and give me time to shoot/magic the DP.


Movement:
Yes, I usually start by placing the reavers in position to offer flank/rear charges and try to get some march blocking. My plan, I suppose, is that I can always swing them back around front of things to redirect them (though I still definitely need some work on this). They're not much less tough than most of my units, so I don't think they give up too much extra CR, except maybe against very deep enemies who otherwise would not get to attack forward, and these enemies are typically low-quality enough that the reavers kill more than they lose. As you can see in the last diagram, the western reavers did take out the warshrine without too much difficulty, so I feel they definitely do help limit the enemy movement when used in this way--a rear charge with a standard and the possibility of a wound or two can add up fast. But maybe they would have been much better blocking the warriors from the get-go? Then I would focus my shooting on the chariot and encircle the warriors when they got too close.

On the failed combo-charge, I think the phoenix needed a 7 and Carmen needed a 6. So it was definitely not a certainty! I wouldn't normally take a risk like that, but I felt like I needed to make a big play with my general dead. This would have cleared a lot of my units out of the middle and made some space for maneuvering. I felt so cramped due to my deployment and conservative opening movements that my units were bumping into each other!


Shooting:
I should have focused my bolt throwers on the chariot turns one and two. My archers and reavers could handle the dragon ogres, either in shooting or in combat.

Magic:
I think I played my offensive phases pretty well. With a 5v4 opening phase, I thought it would be prudent to open with a one-die (89%) spell. But let's see--I was only within 24" of one enemy unit, so that really leaves me with 4 useful spells here: miasma, fireball, shem's, and spirit leech. Perhaps a 3-dice spirit leech (94%) would have been better to open the phase, followed by two one-die spells. It's always better to start with spells with a higher chance, although of course a 3-dice spell can also miscast, ending the phase early as well.

Speaking of 94%, the failed spirit leech second turn was definitely annoying, but of course none of this really mattered given my formation and allowing the DP to flit into my lines with no danger and destroy everything with one spell. His miscast was Power Drain(2), by the way. I don't really have much that can hurt him reliably in combat (as I learned last turn, when even wyssan star lance dragon princes couldn't scratch him), so I needed to create space and time to bolt/leech him down. Missing both point-blank shots was definitely unlucky, but even under good circumstances I wouldn't kill him but rather just get a couple wounds there.

Losing my general:
I was standing so close to be in range for Ring of Fury on the warriors. I really didn't consider the chariot a threat, especially with the 3++ save, and I didn't think Mark would opt for that charge. My point in bringing up the dangerous terrain was not that it was particularly likely to happen, but rather that it was one of a long list of negative factors that add up to making the charge a bad idea. 30% chance to fail the charge, 10-20% chance to lose the chariot to dangerous terrain, 3++ ward on the PG, etc. But as Mark pointed out, it was probably worth risking the 130-point (I think) model to have a chance to score 600 points for taking out that unit. He didn't necessarily need to break me in one turn either--as long as the chariot at least held for a round, Alexandra would be locked in combat during my magic phase and the DP could charge me next turn. In the end, the chariot scored a home run!


Thanks so much for the feedback. I definitely need to learn when to be more aggressive! I let all the terrain fool me into thinking I didn't have many options for movement, when in reality a little dangerous terrain is just a risk you have to take (as Mark demonstrated to me).

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My comments will be partly general to MSU an partly specific to your battle, as it's the easiest way for my head to engage with it.

Deployment:
I actually feel overwhelmed with the MSU deployment phase. In theory it should be easy to outdeploy with so many units, but actually, given that they all need to work together, it's a bit misleading to think of them as multiple drops. For example, if I plan to combine my shooting (especially vs trolls or similar) to take out a particular threat, then I need to hang fire with my archers and my sisters. For you, you concentrated fire in this game on the dragon ogres. I think this was a good move, but you're less bound to deployment for this with multiple RBTs and less need for sisters, although if you're focussing fire then why not include them here too? I don't know what order he did his drops, but in principle A2 archers would have been better on the right flank in this battleplan.

But I guess there are things we can do fairly easily. It's usually (though not always) a good idea to have my lone RBT on a hill almost regardless of where that hill is, but this might be less sensible for you with 3 and LoS blocking issues subsequent drops might create, so I guess they're a late drop for you. Dragon princes are almost certainly best suited to flanks, where they present a decent threat range but can turn to centre if required, and best of all, this is the best way to get them into a flank charge position IMO. You don't have 2 units but I think we can often afford to split them one to each flank. These might present an easy early drop? Now, your list has changed quite a bit since I first really engaged with it. Before I think you had 3! units of swordmasters to spread around, and in principle one on each flank supporting the DPs is pretty good because they're too small to hold the line in the centre (although they can offer a painful speedbump!). But with so few infantry threats (especially with one of them on bodyguard duty, albeit bodyguards can still fight) I really don't know how you'd apply these threats. I guess a big consideration would be spell-range and casting priority for where you place the PG?

I tend to put reavers quite central (in so far as it's a trick, it's one I picked up with my brief foray into flying circus) - between vanguard and fast cav they can redeploy to the flanks easily or push up hard for early flees. And it gives away very little about your plans. I guess they're a better early drop than dragon princes as you want them on your 'open' flank rather than your 'combat' flank, assuming your opponent doesn't deploy dead centre.

In this particular battle, I think you want your chariots, frosty, carmen, eagles and reavers deployed as a cluster, so that your redirectors can ensure the path is kept clear for a big combined charge on the infantry. Of course, this leaves the chariot, DP and ogres unchecked as they approach your backline, but with a shooting backline and spread out RBTs you could take out the Dragon Ogres and threaten a counter charge on the rest once they've engaged.

Obviously it's difficult to say exactly though because depending on what you do your opponent will of course react!

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Movement, Magic and Shooting:
Already covered a lot of this in deployment, but:

I think you didn't really take a risk with your combo charge, you were just unlucky. Well, you took a risk in the sense that every so often unlikely events will occur, but you could expect your chargers to get in on those ranges.

Magic - I always worry about one dicing, even with the book, and especially as an opener. I would tend to do my 3-dicer and then do both 1-dicers. The downside to this is that if they let the 3-dicer go then with a Lv4 they stand a decent chance of dispelling both small spells...but they did let one through then, so it's OK. What are your chances of a miscast on 3 dice with book? Can't be that high, surely? And lower than losing concentration on 1 dice with book I'm guessing?

PG bodyguard...I'm starting to wonder about this. Yes they can absorb magic and missiles and they shouldn't panic on (re-rollable) 10's...but if they whiff their ward saves or just lose badly, they're almost certainly not going to be steadfast and without stubborn they're off. I think they might be a good unit to have the general in outside of combat, tempting people to pour magic and shooting into the pheonix guard body guard (especially if I switch in the MR1 banner and given the ring!), but I think a lion cube is a much better combat bunker due to stubborn and optional non-front ranking. Mind you, there's miscast protection from 4++ PG which non BotWD lions are missing...but then a BoH loremaster should be able to minimise miscast risks.

But I'm also becoming less convinced about the role of PG in MSU. I had thought they'd be great, with 10 models essentially having 20 wounds...and that is true...but they just don't have the offensive grunt I need at S4 without the razor banner or 3 ranks, which makes me sad. MSU does give us some economies: lion cubes, min swordmasters, dragon princes, reavers and eagles all work really well at this level as small units can still punch, are sufficiently resilient for my needs and don't cost too much. But we lose out with multiple command models and less unit-wide banner buffs, and for PG I find this just kills it. Stubborn 9A 3-frontage lion cubes work. 2A 1 rank 5 man swordmasters work. But what do 10A no magic banner S4 PG do? I think I need either 15 (min), which might be enough to justify razor banner, or possibly not at all? I'll try them out a bit more as a missile/magic sink, but I think I might switch them out for a third unit of lions at some point. In regards to your list I wonder whether a straight switch to lions (which would get them in) might work well, especially as it grants you a stubborn anchor (in so far as 10 models can be considered an anchor - 3 wide and iceshard/miasma makes this possibly a valid description)?

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Chance to miscast on 3 dice is 7%. Chance to lose concentration on 1 die is 11%.

I might try 10 lions for my loremaster bunker next game! I'm also definitely going to look for opportunities to deploy my reavers centrally and use them for feigned flights!

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Just an update for all your devoted followers (looking at you, Ferny):

I'm playing warhammer with some new additions to our circle, and they don't have the models (or experience) to face my 2,500 list. So we're doing lots of 1500-2000 games, along with team games. It's giving me a chance to try out some fun lists (anyone who has never fielded a frost phoenix at 1k should really try it). Also, I've promised them that the next 2,500pt game I play will feature my Star Dragon since they're eager to face it. I want to keep this thread devoted to my 2,500pt MSU army development, so I won't be posting any of these other games to it.


BUT: just a fun anecdote. I yesterday made a desperate turn-6 charge with a 1-wound-remaining skycutter into the front of 3 leadbelchers. I was 9.5" away so they couldn't s&s (a mistake by my opponent). I scored 3 wounds with impact, 3 wounds with the spears, and 2 more wounds from the eagle, completely deleting the 8-wound unit before it could strike. What heroics!


Anyway, hopefully I'll be getting some more MSU games posted up in the near future, particularly against Daemons and Ogres.

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If you feel inspired to post games from your non-MSU battles in a separate blog go for it!

Also - skycutter -

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Hi Nicene!

I hope you will come back with some MSU games and maybe this time I will be able to contribute a little bit. I apologize for not doing so in the past Fortunately, you have Ferny who is excellent at adding comments and spicing up a discussion!

Cheers!

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Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Leadbelchers have the slow to fire rule so don't let anyone tell you they can S&S.

Ah! Good catch. We are learning the ogre book together so he's kind of relying on me to help him with rules like that.

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Mighty Empires escalation league!


Hello all, we've started a Mighty Empires campaign, with a few rules adjustments. Let's see if I can outline them:

1. No "events" like raiding, double-or-nothing, etc.

2.The only way to score a massacre (5 points) is to completely wipe out the enemy army. The amount of points they score is irrelevant; if you wipe them out, it's a massacre. Anything else is a solid win (4 points).

3. You can start with only one hero. Each castle you build allows a second hero. Each city allows a lord (plus your starting hero, of course).

4. We're doing optional fluff-rules for building for armies. For me, I'm starting with a core army and keeping it essentially the same, just expanding/contracting it as necessary, and adding characters as they become available.

5. The army size is equal to 700 points + 300 per Empire Strength. This means that the smallest battles will be 1000 points (empire strength 1), while the largest will be around 2500-2800 (empire strength 7-8). The battles are played, per the rules, at the point value for the smaller empire's strength. The larger empire then adds 100 points, and each player may add up to 250 points by consuming gold.


So for this campaign, the core of my army is a combined arms list, comprising a silver helm bus, a large block of phoenix guard, a phoenix, and two skycutters. This gives me a wide range of combat threats. The 2500 list looks like this:

~800 characters
Prince on Barded Steed: ~290
Noble BSB on Barded Steed - BotWD: ~170
Loremaster: ~330

627 core
19 Silver Helms - FC, Shields: 467
5 Reavers: 80
5 Reavers: 80

860 special
39 phoenix guard - FC, razor: 655
skycutter: 95
skycutter: 95

240 rare
frostheart phoenix: 240




The 1000 list looks more like:
Noble (general) on barded steed: ~150

9 Silver Helms - FC, shields: 237

12 phoenix guard: 180
skycutter: 95
skycutter: 95

frostheart: 240



The armies are:
High Elves (me)
Orcs & Goblins
Ogre Kingdoms
Warriors of Chaos
Vampire Counts
Daemons of Chaos


So far, we've had two battles, and I'm happy to report that both were high elf victories!

Game one against OK (1000-1000) was decided when my skycutters made a dual longish - range charge into his general's leadbelcher bunker, running over the unit. It ended with me clearing the board for 5 points.

Game two against WoC (1365-1430) saw my Helms hold on steadfast against a dual frontal charge by skullcrushers and S7 dragon ogres. The next turn, my phoenix rescued the Helms with a rear charge, while my PG+skycutters ran over his nurgle warriors+characters. The crushers eventually broke and were run down, but the dragon ogres escaped and survived the battle (ending within 1" of board edge). The 20 surviving PG accepted a front charge from a gorebeast chariot, held for 3 rounds, and were finally run down by the thing before a skycutter could come to the rescue. Nonetheless, I scored 4 points for a solid win.

Now I'll be tied for first place with the Daemons player, so I may be facing him next, at approximately 1800-2000 points.

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Hi Nicene,

Congratulation on the 2 victories, hopefully the third game will also be in your favor! Playing a small campaign like that also creates different priorities for the games as there are additional factors that affect your army size. How did that affect your plans?

I have also noticed you decided to play with more traditional army list. How do you find it, also in comparison to the previous MSU style you played?

Cheers!

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Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

I believe my MSU games taught me to really appreciate the fun (and power) of units working together. So this more traditional list (though definitely with my own style built in!) still focuses on units that support each other--the skycutters and phoenix support the two heavy combat units, while the reavers run interference.

I'm also tired of shooting-heavy lists, which is why I decided to take my favorite aspects of my MSU lists (frostheart, skycutters, loremaster) and combine them with some more serious combat punch. Also, the 40 phoenix guard is a unit I've been interested to try out, just for kicks. And who better to lead them to battle than the loremaster, with a good mix of combat buffs, chaff-clearing magic missiles, and close-combat capabilities?

I suspect dropping the PG to a more traditional 24 or so would be stronger. I could use the points for a third skycutter and a couple eagles. But I definitely want to give the horde a try!

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