Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

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Ferny
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Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#1 Post by Ferny »

So having tweaked my infantry list a lot since the book came out, and having attended my first ever tournament with it, I'm putting it to rest for a while. I'm happy that it works well and is more competitive than the player behind it. There are similar-ish lists I could explore (double PG/Shadow, Triple WL (as in the ETC roster page) or versions of the queenstar, but I feel that barring greater or lesser emphasis on shooting vs core cav they're all variants on a theme, and I wanted something completely different without having to buy a new army.

Lords
Annointed on Frostheart; enchanted shield, dawnstone, crown of command

Heroes
Caradryan on Ashtari

Lv 2 High Mage on steed, ring of fury, dispel scroll

Core
15 silver helms, full command
5 reavers, full command
5 reavers, full command

Special
5 dragon princes, banner, champ, flaming banner

Rare
2x frostheart pheonixes

And so the flying circus is born. I've had a lot of trouble adapting my thinking to this list, both in its creation and delivery on the tabletop last night. It revolves around movement, target saturation and target selection, has a really low model count, low magic potential and is generally IMO quite unforgiving. All in all, not my natural playstyle (which is part of why I want to experiment with it). Also I love list building, so here's a chance to get to it again :mrgreen: .

My initial thoughts on this list:
  • Neither hero has charmed shield/crown so they're both relying on their natural ward saves and target saturation
    My magic potential is really low so prioritising what to let through/dispel is crucial...mind you, I also don't have that many viable targets for spells
    I am *really* vulnerable to war machines
    No BSB could really hurt
    I don't think Caradryan adds much to this list, he seems pretty redundant
    Plan is for silver helms to break steadfast and for annointed to be able to hold a unit up while the rest of my army gets into position to charge next turn
    Chaff clearance more or less has to be done by my main units!
    In an army where every point matters, I don't think this is a very optimised list
BatRep(ish):
So last night I took this list out against a fairly friendly WoC army:

Nurgle DP with stuff
lv2 tzeench sorcerer with unit
3 skullcrushers
2 chariots
hellcannon
18 tzeench warriors sword and board
18 nurgle halberds
chimera

This battle was riddled with errors of judgement and some bad luck but was an excellent learning experience and really good fun. There was very little scenery of import for this game.

Deployment:
I deployed both my reavers centrally to not give too much away and he put his hell cannon on a hill on the right flank. I'm now out of chaff and need to start deploying serious units, with no idea of how he'll set up. Still, I have a vague idea that I want him to be central and for me to pincer him, so I deploy my dragon princes centre left on the basis that they can cover regroup to a more favourable position if need be. I hold my silver helm 'bus' back til last and deploy both pheonixes centre right, opposite the hellcannon.

This was maybe my first major mistake...I identified the hellcannon as my biggest threat and decided to neutralise it, whereas I'd have been much better off trying to get into the safety of combat on my own terms rather than trying to angle towards it. With hindsight maybe I should have focussed on trying to multi-charge one unit of warriors at a time to collect the 'easy' points, these being the only units I could actually thunderstomp. He counter deployed his chariots and skullcrushers on the right flank, protecting the cannon, and we then further crowded the right flank with the DP/Annointed face-off. He deployed both warrior units centrally, with the nurgle warriors being far enough right that they wouldn't see the game.

I placed first and finished first so get +1 to roll-off...and lost.

WoC Turn 1
I forgot to vanguard, so off to a great start!

Both warrior units marched forward harmlessly. The crushers and chariots edged forward, baiting me to charge (20") with my annointed and/or helms, and the DP jumped over them to truly taunt me. The chimera does likewise, taunting both pheonixes and caradryan. Magic zipp but the hellcannon removed a rank of helms before they'd even got into their stirrups.

Elves Turn 1
Dilemmas. WoC are forcing a stand-off, which with more magic and artillery, they would win...so I figure I pretty much have to charge. I realise being drawn into these sorts of decisions is really bad with this sort of list, but what choice was there? So I declare the helms on the DP with a frosty support and my tanky annointed on the skullcrushers to protect the flank of my knights not just from the crushers but from chariot impact hits. Another lesson learnt - given the angle of the DP next to the board edge and my helms frontage, we couldn't fit the frosty in so he fail charged. Caradryan charged the chimera which fled. My reavers move up to redirect the warriors and my Dragon Princes move to flank the nurgle warriors.

Magic sees me irristably move a frostheart up into the face of the hellcannon, blows up my wizard and takes 3 reavers into the warp with him. There goes my magic phase/game! Ah well, onwards to prove that you don't need magic! Shooting zip.

Combat is disastrous. I elect to do annointed first (which I thought I might win), but with no wounds apiece the charge/banner cancelled and I lose by a musician...I then flee on stubborn 9 and thankfully get away, but the crushers hit the flank of the helms. My helms failed to do any damage and were chased off the board by the crushers. With hindsight I should have done these combats the other way around, though I suspect the helms would still have been slaughtered by the DP alone.

Chaos Turn 2:
DP charges fleeing annointed forcing me further back but failing to catch me. Chariot charges a frosty who holds. Tzeench warriors charge and redirect into both reavers who double flee. Nurgle warriors make IMO a mistake and turn to face the dragon princes who kept them turning all game. Chimera fails to rally on Ld9 but is still on the board.

Shooting - misfire causes miscast on wizards if they fail a Ld test; DP is fine but the tzeench mage has been losing leadership like nobodies buisness through some sort of magic item induced channelling attempts so he blows 7 warriors up! But more critically, magic - reduced toughness gets through on chariot charged frosty...who then dies, chariot over-runs and hits the fleeing reavers.

Elves Turn 2:
There's not a lot left now. The DPs dance around the nurgle warriors. The remaining frosty charges the chimera forcing it to flee off the board and re-directs into the hellcannon, my annointed rallies and my two fleeing reavers rally. Caradryan wins combat against the reduced tzeench unit but they hold on steadfast. The frosty/hellcannon bounce.

Chaos Turn 3:
The crushers and chariot charge the hellcannon fighting frosty, which manages to survive on one wound, escape pursuit and not run off the board. The other chariot turns to charge Caradryan in the rear next turn. Caradryan died but Ashtari carried on killing warriors. Amusingly the tzeench sorceror used a magic item which turned him into a deamon prince...on a Ld check...of 2...which he nearly made on a 3, so instead turned into a spawn!

Elves Turn 3:
Ashtari finished off the warriors then died. Annointed moved up to charge range. Dragon Princes moved into charge range. Two remaining reaver knights still alive.

Turn 4
One wound frosty multi-charged and killed. Cannon killed annointed and mount. Dragon Princes charged DP, bounced, counter charged by chariot and died. End result - elves tabled bar two reavers. WoC lost the Tzeench warriors and chimera.


Conclusions:
Things would have been very different with a BSB and BotWD in the helms unit, so that would be my first change. With the extra points I'd probably bump up the dragon warriors to 10 giving me two big cavalry threats, a bit more redundancy for war machine targets, decent protection from metal/spells generally, good AS especially coupled with three pheonixes. I'd be tempted to switch the annointed for star dragon to benefit from the banner, more stompy, Ld 10 bubble etc - generally I think he meshes better with the list, but I'll stick to the annointed for now to not make too many changes at once.
Last edited by Ferny on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#2 Post by Malossar »

I would definetely drop Caradryan. Use the ponits on the BotWD while buying a BsB and upping the princes to 8-9. Points depending you might just be able to squeeze a second noble to run the cav bus proper.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#3 Post by Ferny »

Malossar Dragonborne wrote:I would definetely drop Caradryan. Use the ponits on the BotWD while buying a BsB and upping the princes to 8-9. Points depending you might just be able to squeeze a second noble to run the cav bus proper.
At 2,400 I don't think I'd have the points for a second noble, but he might just squeeze in if I re-jig things a bit. Any suggestions on how you'd kit them out. Also - would you go with BotWD on the BSB to cover the big helms and run them as a separate threat to the dragon princes, or would you go balls out on the DPs with the banner and give them two nobles too?

I kind of prefer BSB with the helms because the DPs are already protected against metal, but then I could be swayed by actually putting decent kit on the BSB, so...
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#4 Post by Avicii »

Hey Ferny thanks for the write up and a great read.

Firstly I'll start with the list, I love the Idea of 4 Frostheart's! This was my initial goal with my list (to try fit as many Frosty's in as possible), but i Figured it would create some problems with the list i.e no BSB and huge amounts of points stuck in characters. I really like the speed and mobility with this list, however the low body count at first look could be daunting for some gamers. I like Malossar's Idea because a BSB is almost essential. You already know I like to have infantry in my army to form a sort of line in which I can fall back to if my opponent seems to be advancing undesirably.
I think it is great you are taking on a list like this, so don't give up on it to early. It will be good to see it grow and change for success!

on to the game... Man there was some tough luck in this game! At least with the bad luck you can walk away knowing that the lose might not have been if the dice were more in your favor :D . It is a bit harder to understand some parts of the game without pictures but I will try my best to see if i can help.
In deployment it is important to stick to your own strategy and try not to get put off by your opponents deployment (as you identified early). Obviously some deployment strategies are to match up certain units against opponents units. This is not the case with how mobile your army is, you can just about deploy anywhere on the table and by turn three you will be charging what you want. From experience when I come up against cannons and war machines with so many easy targets I try not to become hung up on trying to get into combat with them early to stop them shooting. I Deploy with my normal strategy in mind and hope my first few wards saves pay off, and if some unit of mine happens to find its way into the back field with a good chance of beating a warmachine that is when i take the chance. In my first game at my Tricksters Tournament with the Cav Bus (there is a battle report up for this) I sent my Frost into the hellcannon turn 2 and didn't kill it until the last which was a massive waste of the Phoenix the whole game.

Looking at your opponents army now, you can straight away realize he has 2 units you probably will not be able to take down without a combo charge 1) DP 2) Crushers. I will say that Warriors are probably the hardest match up because of the armor saves.

Turn 1 I am a bit worried as to why you were forced into declaring so many chargers this early in the game? It is obviously hard to avoid his DP but not so much the rest of his army. his blocks have 4", crushers 7" and Chariots 8" move. This means that where ever you feel comfortable making a charge from in your next turn (2) he would have make at least a 2" longer charge! To me this is the best asset of this style of list, being able to line up 16-18" away from infantry blocks knowing they need box cars to get to you. Also his army had next to magic or ranged threats making it even easier for you to hold off as long as possible. Your Annointed really lacks combat punch right? Maybe a rethink on his build...
from here everything went down hill for you and it became very hard to recover.

Again I would not call myself an expert as this game so my advice could be completely useless. I just wanted to pass on a few of my thoughts since are list share similar structures.

Avicii
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#5 Post by Malossar »

It's not just metal protection. It's protection from death magic and protection from miscasts. With a level 2 you'll find yourself more often than not just throwing 6 dice at a spell just to IF and then absorb the damage from the banner. Didn't realize this was only 2400 but here's what I recommend:

I've got you 35points short overall and 5 points under on core.

Noble - 139
-B. Steed, Heavy Armor, Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, Shield

Noble (BsB) - 164
Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed

The Trinket Build! He's got a lot of utility haha. 1+ Armor, 2++ against first wound and he'll start carving opponents up when combined with the OTS and the noble.

Boost Dragon Princes to:

7x Dragon Princes w. Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Star Lance - 313

Swap Mage to Beasts Magic. Unleash hell by 6 dicing Wyssans. Some games you'll get real nasty by utilizing Savage Beasts of Horros.

Think of the bus as your alternative to the monsters if everything goes to hell. Its super durable and particulary hard to crack especially with wyssans.

Bam! so by dropping Caradryan on Ashtari and the tweeking with the dragon princes (595) subtracting the cost of the two nobles and the new dragon prince bus = 616.


Here's some other changes:

Anointed on Frostheart - 545
-Charmed shield, Dawnstone, Pot of Fools, Giant Blade

I swapped the ultra defensive kit for the super aggressive kit. Maybe it's just different playstyles but I think the ability to catch the first cannonball is invaluable. I would maybe even add the goldencrown over in favor of something else. Remember that the frostie is providing some real nice defensive buffs and your opponent only gains points if your whole model dies. I think this'll help with some armor problems you're bound to run into by not utilizing bolt throwers and/or metal magic. Beasts will be handy if you roll up amber spear...

Core:

I haven't been a big fan of big silver helm units. They don't provide a whole lot of ranks and they can be quite cumbersome. You're also currently going to struggle to remove chaff. while frosthearts are great chaff clearers do you really want to be allocating those beautiful birds to chaff clearing duties?! I would consider something like my current MSU cav core. I've been having a ton of success with it. Reavers are providing just enough shooting (well I have 4 bolt throwers too) and the silver helms are great at combat clearing. Full Command is really a waste of points on the reavers as well. I get that its filling core but its also handing points to your opponent. You're also light on break points so this could be an effective way of gaining some back.

Nothing wrong in rare!



Here's mine in list form:


Anointed on Frostheart - 545
-Charmed shield, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Pot of Fools

Noble - 139
-B. Steed, Heavy Armor, Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, Shield

Noble (BsB) - 164
Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed

Lv 2 Beast Mage on steed, dispel scroll - 155

Core: I'll await your thoughts here but I would look at:
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Silver Helms w. Banner, Shields - 125
5x Silver Helms w. Banner, Shields, Champ - 135
= 600

If you want to stick all mounted. But I would recommend because you are so light on chaff clearing:

16x Archers w. Musician - 180
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Reavers w. Bows - 85
5x Silver Helms w. Banner, Shields - 125
5x Silver Helms w. Banner, Shields - 125

7x Dragon Princes w. Full Command, Banner of the World Awesome, Star Lance - 313

Frost Heart
Frost Heart

Either Core selection puts you right @ 2396.

I update my list sans frosty as per your suggestion. awaiting your feedback...
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#6 Post by Ferny »

My computer's been timing out so I'll answer each post in turn:
Avicii wrote: Turn 1 I am a bit worried as to why you were forced into declaring so many chargers this early in the game? It is obviously hard to avoid his DP but not so much the rest of his army. his blocks have 4", crushers 7" and Chariots 8" move. This means that where ever you feel comfortable making a charge from in your next turn (2) he would have make at least a 2" longer charge! To me this is the best asset of this style of list, being able to line up 16-18" away from infantry blocks knowing they need box cars to get to you. Also his army had next to magic or ranged threats making it even easier for you to hold off as long as possible. Your Annointed really lacks combat punch right? Maybe a rethink on his build...
from here everything went down hill for you and it became very hard to recover. Avicii
Thanks for the tips! It can be hard work slogging through pictureless batreps but I haven't braved battle chronicler yet - I might start trying to if I take to BRs as it does make a huge difference reading them.

The logic behind the early charges was basically one thing: hellcannon. Before I'd even picked up a ruler it had taken a rank of my helms and each turn I wasn't in combat it had the potential to take out considerable proportions of my army (given how small it was). That said, the one time my last list faced off against a dwarf gunline and my frosty made his ward save for about 5 rounds out of 6, including one round where it was reduced to 6, so they certainly can be frustrating to shoot at!

With hindsight, the chariots were more devastating and easier to deal with - as you say, if I'd sucked up one more round of shooting I could have set myself up for likely charges on both of them. I wasn't worried about the two infantry blocks, I could tie them up all day long with my reavers/dragon princes.

But I'm not sure what I could have done against the crushers/DP combo, especially with chariot back-up. He moved forward really aggressively with the DP, baiting the charge and threatening my helms, annointed and a frosty. If I charged him I'd get skullcrushers in the flank (which is why I sent the annointed to tank them, although it was a poor plan because he risked being chariot charged or they could target the helms, so...), which is what happened in the end due to their over-run. But if I didn't charge then he could have his pick of who to charge. I guess I could have either taken the charge or set myself up in a defensive mutually-suporting counter-charge ring and hope to tank the charge, but that wouldn't have gotten me any closer to his lines and would have still left me vulnerable to shooting.

Thinking about it now I actually think that in deployment I should have kept my reavers back til last to counter the crushers. My frosties could go down early centrally because of their movement and pivot, and then once the battle starts my priority targets should be the infantry blocks which I should hopefully combo-charge and remove steadfast from as a priority (still hard though with nurgle or 5+ ward tzeench). But given how I did deploy dealing with the DP backed up with crushers still has me stumped...

I've had some good tips in this thread, but I think tbh my poor deployment and initial choice of primary target cost me this game...but I've learnt a lot from it!:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 85#p856385

Part of the problem is clearly list design. Certainly BotWD would have made a huge difference against the crushers and I think the DP had sword of striking, so actually my cav could have tanked them with that one little tweak, and with a re-roll the tanky annointed could have held the crushers on stubborn 9...and my dragon princes would have been big enough to be a real threat rather than glorified reaver knights, but is there a way around it given what I had? (I appreciate it's very hard to tell without pictures!). I think perhaps there isn't a great solution but I'd be interested if there are any OK ones.

Mal, thanks for the detailed lists - comments coming up here and in your thread!
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#7 Post by Ferny »

Hi Mal,

Thanks for the noble builds and lists - I like them a lot. Of the two I prefer the all mounted approach - I feel archers are a weak spot in the army and might well not deal with chaff as well as a reaver/silver helm charge, so I'm happy enough on the chaff front (for now - we'll see how it plays)!

I think I'll hold off on some of these changes for now so that my list evolves more incrementally, but I'll keep your list(s) as a set to trial. I'm definitely losing Caradryan and getting a mounted BSB. I'd like to give the core helms 'bus' (inverted commas because princeless) for another couple of games at least to see how it does with proper noble, banner and gaming table frostheart support - I feel it ought to be OK, but I haven't really given it a chance yet. I ran MSU core cav in my special infantry list so I'm pretty comfortable with how they operate in the list you've suggested and would happily shift to that if my 'bus' doesn't work. If it does I should get a credible combat threat from the helms, the dragon princes and the 3x frosties. If it doesn't work I'll put the banner in the DPs and shift my nobles to your more aggressive builds in there and give that a whirl.

Avicii, Mal - I'm gonna keep my annointed load out as is for the moment because discussing 'mexican stand-offs' in another thread I reckon he could be a decent answer, as he is enough of a threat that he needs to be dealt with if pushed forwards as bait, but with his current build is hopefully tanky enough to take it - especially with a BSB in the list now!

So my new 2,400 list (for now) would be:

Core: 605
15xsilver helms + FC - 375
5x reavers (mus+ch) - 115
5x reavers (mus+ch) - 115

Lords: 515
Annointed, Frostheart, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Crown of Command - 515

Heroes: 496
Noble, BSB, Barded Steed, Lance, Shield, Heavy Armour, BotWD - 172
Noble, Barded Steed, sword of might, enchanted shield, golden crown, TOTS, heavy armour - 139
Lv2 Beasts, (barded) steed, ring of fury,dispel scroll -185

Rare: 540
2x Frost Pheonix - 480
1x eagle (ASF) - 60

Special: 244
6xDP + FC + Flame banner + Star Lance - 244

This switches Caradryan for two nobles inc BSB, an extra DP and the star lance, and loses standards on the reavers. I've kept champions on them for challenges and musicians for rally on 9, 10 within 18" of general. If I don't like the helm-bus I'll MSU it and switch the nobles over to the DPs and arm them up to follow Mal's suggestions. Definitely a better list already - lets see how it rolls.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#8 Post by Jimmy »

Thanks for the battle report Ferny, ironically enough I was just discussing the merits of a 4 phoenix list yesterday afternoon with a friend. Good to read about it.

Do you think there is any longevity in the list design and secondly how many games do you think you'll play with this 'style' of list before it runs its course on you?
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batrep')

#9 Post by Ferny »

Hi Jimmy,

I wouldn't advocate for 4x pheonix at this sort of points level because it means that you need to choose between having *any* magic (max Lv2 with dispel and ring) or having a BSB...besides which, frosties are great but they're not that stompy and their buffs/debuffs don't stack, so I think you're as well off with just one character frostie or dragons once you've got two rare ones. Incidentally, if you did want four big monsters in a list I think 2xrare frosty + dragonprince/moonmage + dragonmage/griffon-noble is going to be more sensible because it's got more bite (and if you go dragons you get stubborn for free with the banner).

I tend to make at least one or two small changes to a list after each game, so already after game one four frosties is out and I probably won't return to that idea. But I've kept the tanky annointed and I've kept the big block of helms. I could see this list going the route Mal has suggested, or towards a traditional CavPrince bus (with two frostie support), or two cavalry busses, or Avicii's infantry support route, or...yeah, lots of options. I don't know how comfortable I'd feel with this sort of list in a competitive setting, but I intend to stick with this type of list for the forseable future. It's a bit like when a new army book comes out and it changes the meta so lists have to change - my infantry list was great but it was getting stale to play, and even more so to play against! So bring on the new :D.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus; Only 4xFrPheonix+31cav (and 'batr

#10 Post by Ferny »

New List...I played one game with something very similar a while ago against WoC. I lost badly but it played well, was super fast to play and good fun, so I'm gonna keep going with it. An obvious switch would be to include a second noble in the helmbus, though I'm damned if I can find the points to kit heroes properly if I do. Curu suggested a lightspam list too, but that feels less intuitive to me than high with helms - I'd be interested to see it and maybe play it, but I think this would be my baseline.

Lords: 598
Star Dragon (390) and Prince (140): starlance (30), golden crown (10), TOTS (15), dragonhelm (10), shield (3)
Heroes: 538
Noble BSB, BotWD, barded elven steed, lance, shield, dragon armour: (178)
Lv2 High, elven steed, Fire/High Ring, Scroll: (180)
Lv2 High, elven steed, Sceptre, Crown of Command: (180)
Core:605 pts
15 silver helms, FC: (375)
Reavers, bow+spear, champ+mus: (115)
Reavers, bow+spear, champ+mus: (115)
Rare: 570
Frostheart
4xRBT
Eagle
Special: 80
5xShadow Warriors+Champ
Total: 2,391
6 drops+characters+scouts
1 banner plus BSB
40 models

Changes I'm considering (already!)...I'd like ironcurse icon in my helmbus...maybe the ring is excessive so I could switch it out and save 20pts too? I'd also like a 2nd eagle, but I'm not sure where to get the points from? I'm also not sold on my core set up - maybe if I dropped a silver helm I could instead get three units of spear+champ reavers? Though I like at least one unit having bows for charmed shield.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#11 Post by Curu Olannon »

Reavers: Drop the Spears and musicians in my opinion, more Helms :D With Stubborn, you just can`t have enough wounds in this unit ;)

As for the Heroes: the math is pretty simple. You want 2 mounted Nobles (70x2 + 15x2 = 170), 2 mounted L2s (130 + 130 = 260) and the BSB needs heavy armour and shield at the very least (+31). This comes out at 461 points. This is your baseline. I suppose you could throw the BOTWD in as well, making the baseline 511 points. From here, it`s all "luxury". Dispel Scroll and Crown of Command (the defensive, safe route) is the most conservative, which leaves us with 29 points for the last Noble. Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance leaves 17 points. Enchanted Shield, Luckstone and Dragon Armour instead of Heavy Armour clocks in at 597 total. Note that the BSB doesn`t have a Lance now (that is the tradeoff for Dragon Armour and largely up to personal preference), the idea here is to run the Helms 3-wide. If Champ dies, second Noble goes forward. Thus, it takes forever for an enemy to reach the important things here: Scrollmage, Stubbornmage and BOTWD-BSB.

So we have:
BSB on barded steed, BOTWD, shield, heavy, spear = 168
Noble on barded steed, dragon armour, enchanted shield, luckstone, lance = 111
Mage L2 steed, scroll = 155
Mage L2 steed, crown = 165
Heroes total = 599
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#12 Post by Ferny »

Good thoughts - I'll need to playtest :)
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#13 Post by SpellArcher »

Recently faced Star Dragon plus 3 Frostheart list with my WE's and got stuffed by it. He had World Dragon BSB but no magic, so it was just as well I gifted him my lvl4 first turn!

Caradryan's Flaming attacks helped him out.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

That list hits like a ton of bricks, but not even having a scroll leaves it very vulnerable to quite a few enemies.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

Yes, I really needed the lvl4, not just for Amber Spear but to Wildform my S5 units so they could actually put wounds on the Phoenixes. Treeman held one but got ground down. Lord's unit managed to break and run one down but that was all the joy I had against them.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#16 Post by Ferny »

I've dropped the bows on the reavers to give them an extra man each, which might help maintain stubborn against flying characters. Likewise I would have liked a 6th man for the scouts but I ran out of points. I did want the ironcurse icon but I couldn't find a sensible way to squeeze it in. Curu's 2nd noble might be a better option than trinkets on the mages but it feels wasteful - maybe come 50% lords/heroes but not with current limits. I was tempted by dual phoenix but I've tried a couple of games with them and I don't think I use them that well and the list felt a bit flat - at least with bolters I have something to do in each phase. Also while I now have the models and painting isn't a requirement, I don't really want to rush paint 2 whereas the rest of the list is basically ready.

Other than that I've gone with my list. I will be playing this at a small tournament in a couple of weeks time. My chief aim is to finish my damn games, so hopefully this will be a quick list to play!
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#17 Post by Ferny »

There will be 3 games. The factions are: DoC 6, OnG 5, Dw HE & WoC 4, Brets 3! Liz, WE and VC 2, OK & DE 1

My first, in a TLoS environment, is vs dwarfes...great :roll:

I guess spread the helms out line abreast, send the monsters in for the war machines T2 and hope for T1...at least I can put the RBTs in open view and try to shoot back as there should be juicier targets.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#18 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ferny wrote:There will be 3 games. The factions are: DoC 6, OnG 5, Dw HE & WoC 4, Brets 3! Liz, WE and VC 2, OK & DE 1

My first, in a TLoS environment, is vs dwarfes...great :roll:

I guess spread the helms out line abreast, send the monsters in for the war machines T2 and hope for T1...at least I can put the RBTs in open view and try to shoot back as there should be juicier targets.
Do you have specific lists and/or the map?
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#19 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:
Ferny wrote:There will be 3 games. The factions are: DoC 6, OnG 5, Dw HE & WoC 4, Brets 3! Liz, WE and VC 2, OK & DE 1

My first, in a TLoS environment, is vs dwarfes...great :roll:

I guess spread the helms out line abreast, send the monsters in for the war machines T2 and hope for T1...at least I can put the RBTs in open view and try to shoot back as there should be juicier targets.
Do you have specific lists and/or the map?
Nope and nope - closed lists and maps as laid out by the TO. I think I remember reading a house rule that buildings cannot be occupied, which is a blessing for my list I think.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#20 Post by Curu Olannon »

You don't know your own list? :D
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#21 Post by Ferny »

Ah, mine:

Fluff: The End Times approach. The elves mobilise. Imrik declared Caledor free of its bonds to Ulthuan, daring Tyrion, Teclis or any who would claim Finubar’s authority to challenge him. Loyalties are questioned as kinship becomes ascendant. Vows are made and alliances are struck. When a successor to the Pheonix Crown is chosen, the armies of Caledor will stand ready to defend their lords claim. Anisoptera sours as Aeshnea lowers his lance. Beneath him, Caledor marches to war.

Ferny’s “I’m gonna finish 6 rounds if it kills me” list
Lords: 598

Anisoptera Star Dragon and Aeshnea Prince: starlance, golden crown, TOTS, dragonhelm, shield (598)

Heroes: 538
Aesnar, Noble BSB, BotWD, barded elven steed, lance, shield, dragon armour: (178)
Libellula, Lv2 High, elven steed, Khaine’s Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll: (180)
Sympetrum, Lv2 High, elven steed, Sceptre of Stability, Crown of Command: (180)

Core: 607 pts
Aesnarii Guard, 15 silver helms, shields, FC: (375)
Aesnarii Reavers, 6 Reaver Knights, spear, champ+mus: (116)
Aesnarii Reavers, 6x Reaver Knights, spear, champ+mus: (116)

Rare: 570
Caledus, Frostheart (240)
Dragon Claw Bolt Throwers, 4xRBT (280)
Crash, Eagle (50)

Special: 80
Scouts, 5xShadow Warriors+Champ (80)
Total: 2,393

6 drops+characters+scouts
1 banner plus BSB
42 models
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#22 Post by Curu Olannon »

You have two choices: Go for gold or try and reduce the loss. In the first, deploy aggressively and push up as hard as you can. Cast Arcane at his scroll-caddies to force these out. Walk and Apotheosis are life savers if they go through. If you want to reduce the loss, go in the opposite corner and pray his cannons will never reach your dragon.

Good luck!
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#23 Post by Ferny »

Just had a game against ogres...I'm really not sure how to play against them (uncomped, TLOS).

1) hellheart keeps the helmbus honest (as in far back) if you put the mages in it - I'm honestly thinking about putting them into a reaver squad each...
2) 2x ironblasters keep the helms honest, preventing them from going 3-wide to protect mages
3) yet the big beasties need to make it up-field ASAP to protect themselves from cannonballs by entering combat (but unsupported by helms unless you ditch the mages)
4) no thunderstomps means the grinds take longer

I'm glad I played a game and got some mistakes out of my system, but they seem tough...
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#24 Post by Curu Olannon »

Uncomped Ogres with TLoS is unplayable for a Star Dragon. You can pray that you get lucky, apart from that you will just get smashed. Again, two options: Either go all-in or go opposite corner. Nevermind the Hellheart, you have BOTWD. You just need to get stuff in, if you go for that approach.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#25 Post by Ferny »

Thanks - get stuff in it is then. One big problem I had was breaking steadfast (even against small blocks) without thunderstomps, so this would have helped in that regard, rather than being aggressive with half my army and fearful with the other half.

One observed weakness with this list last night was scouting maneaters, against which I had nothing which could defend my backline. I did at least only bleed RBTs slowly because they were well spaced out but I couldn't do anything to prevent that. I guess this is a bit of an exception though because normal scouts or vanguarders are easier to shoot down.
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Re: Ferny's Flying Circus: Stardragon

#26 Post by Curu Olannon »

Scouting maneaters are the least of your worries. If they are going for your back field that means they are not defending vs your rush.

Regardless, this is a super nasty matchup. I don't think you can win apart from luck. Terrain giving you impossible pieces and walls could help a bit.
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