Ferny's WL:PG blocks - no book, no frosty, and MSU SMs!

[Ferny]

Hi guys,

I'll kick off with the caveats:
1) I'm not a pro player - this list hasn't won every battle I've fought with it, although I think in large part that is down to my mediocre generalship. It has generated a bit of buzz in the club and might be considered 'the list to beat' at the moment.
2) I've never played tournaments and am limited to playing against players and armies in my club, although it does include both some good lists and some very good players. There are plenty of match-ups I haven't yet faced with this.
3) There are of course other builds that work well - I'm not detracting from them, but simply exploring the limits of this one.
4) I'm calling it optimised slightly incorrectly - there are still tweaks I'm experimenting with, but the basic (indeed, detailed even) outline should remain unchanged by this stage.

I'm looking for thoughts on problems this list might face (e.g. army or unit match ups) or ways it could be improved (particularly lore choice and use of pheonix) - and for a reality check from folks who play vs more armies!

Specials:
I'll start with the specials because they're what this army is built around - two complimentary blocks of elite infantry. In terms of army development I started off with much smaller units of both (15-18) and played about with different additional support elements (e.g. flaming dragon princes, RBTs etc). This worked OK but I found my support units didn't do enough for me and my core combat blocks were a bit fragile in a grind against big units so I consolidated. Between them, these two units have been able to pretty much deal with anything, aided by magical support but not strictly hampered without it (e.g. vs dwarves and when I've lost my AM early game).

28 White Lions with full command and BotWD
BotWD is a no brainer for this unit - beyond the obvious mage shielding benefits and protection from combat characters, 2++ vs magic combined with 3+AS vs shooting means that the only thing that can really hurt this unit before getting into combat is non-magical stone throwers - and once in combat this unit eats face. Usually deployed 7x4 for maximum CR and damage output on a small footprint which can absorb quite a bit of damage before its own damage output drops. It is big enough to take out monsters (even without flaming banner) and to grind it out with infantry units. It is also this lists' obvious answer to armour (as I lack high S magic and RBTs), but WS5 S6 works just as well against T4 or armoured infantry. Having experimented with Swordmasters in 7th I prefer WL not so much for the S6 but for the protection vs missiles and stubborn, which have proven costly omissions on swordmasters in the past - I don't see things being different in 8th, despite the SM 6++, so I've stuck with lions. Lack of re-rolls hurt, but points drop for more numbers, fighting in 3 ranks without being a horde and BotWD protection at range makes up for it IMO. Stubborn gives the unit some resilience against poor combat rounds (especially if within general's Ld9 or BSB's bubbles). The biggest boon to this unit would be defensive buffs, which to a greater or lesser extent are available from most lores. However, the unit is solid enough to stand its own without magic if required.

Bad match ups include other elves and potentially deeply ranked tarpit units. Nurgle (warriors) is nasty too, but unless its a very big unit you're facing we grind it out with the best of them. I've not encountered anything else which has really caused them problems other than the aforementioned stone throwers - any thoughts on what else I should watch out for out there?

23 Pheonix Guard with full command and Razor Banner
Razor banner seems to be the new standard kit for this unit and does seem to help. I'd certainly rather take the banner than 3 more bodies for the unit - it helps plenty against 1+/2+ knights/MC and is no bad thing against heavy infantry. Alternatives include flaming (which I haven't really missed too much in this list) or discipline (which synergises best if the general is in the unit, which is rare in this list, and given their 4++ they shouldn't be losing too many combats to need it otherwise). Any other suggestions for banners?

I've yet to encounter any truly bad match-ups for this unit, although again I guess deep tarpits could be frustrating. This unit is IMO just as scary as the lions - their native ward means they should be getting into combat near to full strength and once there re-rolling hits makes them much better against foes where the S6 is overkill and 4++ ward gives them much better longevity and CR potential. Usually deployed 6x4 (although 7x3 looks very viable too) I've gone for a smaller block than lions because they die slower so we need fewer ablative bodies. I'm impressed with these guys to the extent that I've been tempted to switch out lions completely and go double PG but that has surprisingly many knock-on army composition issues (e.g. probably ditch BotWD and lose bonuses like death snipe protection and replace with discipline, forces lore choice more towards shadow, possibly more defensive kit on mage (4++), more core archers, slower grinds against armour...see this topic: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=50386

I do intend to give double PG Shadow a go sometime but I'm enjoying the current list too much to switch just yet.


Everything else:
The rest of my army is basically supporting these two elite units in various ways...

Rare:
Frostheart Pheonix
In theory this bad boy supports infantry really well, although in practice he's often off dealing with a threat himself. Very much the third threat in this army. He's performed well for me countering monsters, tough war machines (e.g. chariot cannons and hell cannon), redeploying quickly with M20 fly march to match new threats, and in his 'true' role supporting the infantry. He's done so well I see no reason to get rid of him...but for his points cost I could have a second unit of PG which is resilient, adds more grind potential and is another bunker unit.

6 Sisters
I need a ranged threat vs hexwraiths given limited MM output. A small unit can also help strip regen for the BSB reaver bow/core archers, works well against small units that need to be taken out at range (e.g. manglers, fanatics) and are good vs chaff in almost any match-up, plus being an extra drop. I don't really want to invest the points in a bigger unit, but 6 have their place in this list.


Core
5xReavers with Spears and musos (x2)
More drops, double (or even single) flee, march blocking, flank/rear charges etc all good. Given my limited MM and shooting I also use them a lot for chaff clearing. In theory useful against regular war machines, but in practice these are often castled quite effectively making the charge tricky even for fast cav, and this role is diminished anyway with the new range of chariot/monster cannons. But better than most of the core infantry options IMO, which can't generate CR like the elites and risk being a weak spot in my battle line. I've discarded bows as 5xBS4 S3 shots really don't do much for me, even at the bargain price of 15pts/unit.

5xSilver Helms with obligatory shields (x2)
Very similar role to Reaver units but less mobile and more hitty. 2+ helps vs stand and shoot and S5 vs S4 helps significantly as a swing factor in combats as a flank/rear charge, whilst the 2+ means you're not giving up CR. In 7th I ran 5 DPs in a similar role and I'm finding 10 SH in two units do the job very nicely from core. If they weren't core I'd stick with just one unit of DP max, but while I'd rather have more points to spend on special elite infantry, these are a good use for core points. I'm tempted by either a muso or a standard but by they're starting to make these throwaway units quite expensive and would make the archer impact pitifully small.

I did experiment with one unit of 9-10 with banner but it didn't fulfill any role well enough - without characters it wasn't a hitty bus, and after the first round of combat it wasn't a particularly solid anvil either. I had hoped it would be an additional combat threat but really it wasn't. The only good thing was that it got more missile/war machine/magic attention than it deserved, thereby shielding my true stars.

17 Archers with st and mus
Character bunker, missile threat to chaff and with MP they're solid against common back-line botherers (e.g. harpies, fast cav etc). The joy of 8th is that we don't need to spend everything on this, but I still think one unit is worthwhile. For me the extra CR and re-form of partial command is worth more than two more archers. That said, I wouldn't want to drop much below this number or else they start to become ineffective both as a missile threat and as a backline/bunker unit.


Heroes
BSB with Reaver Bow, Pot of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour
A solid support role for a foot BSB - see this thread: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=50798. I've not yet gotten the most out of the Pot of Strength and am tempted to switch it out for some more defensive kit so that I don't need to be quite so cautious with him...but I can't quite see what that would be alongside the reaver bow; 3+/6++ or 4+/4++ seem to be about as good as I can get it, even if I did have more points to spend (as the dawnstone costs too much to combine with these saves). Or I could get more elite infantry - but unless I can find more savings to boost their numbers more it'll stay.

Support Mage - Lv 2, Beasts; dispel scroll and khaine's ring of fury
This is where I'm most shaky. I definitely want a second caster in case the AM fluffs it, to carry the scroll and to tote the ring - which is a huge boost to this list as I'm generally short of MM and chaff-clearing regular missiles, and the +1WS is a nice bonus in PG or for the BSB. For a support caster it is essential that the signature spell be good, given that this is likely what he'll have. However, Lv 2 may not be essential - it gives slightly better spell selection range, which may not be useful as a support caster vs BoH AM, and an extra +1 to cast...which needn't be a factor if you go with a cheap enough signature lore.

So I'm undecided on both Lv2 upgrade and lore choice. In theory beasts works really well with this list: Wyssans as a signature is a very solid fall-back (indeed, the optimal spell really) and the second spell could give you some more magical options. Savage Beast is lethal on the reaver noble, curse is useful and the magical cannon is no bad spell either. However, the casting values are quite high and take dice away from the BoH AM and the ring. I've found I'm struggling to reliably get Wyssans off so I'm thinking of switching lores to something more casting value friendly. The essential criteria is 8 or less to cast (maybe 7 or less if I drop to Lv1). Chief contenders are High and Heavens, the former for MM and the latter for very useful iceshard blizzard. I'm leaning towards celestial (possibly on Lv1), but I could be swayed.

The joy of this list is that magic is such a support role that something ordinarily as core a decision as lore choice really is quite flexible.

Lords:
Archmage Lv 4 (Life) with Book of Hoeth and Golden Crown
The key reason why he's needed is defensive - to protect me from enemy magic. I've therefore gone cheap and cheerful. I think the BoH is a must for any primary caster and I couldn't resist the 5SS investment in an extra wound/protection against a failed LoS/KB etc. He's very much a support caster - this army stands and falls on my ability to clear chaff (with core/characters) and to win combats, ideally quickly, with my elite infantry blocks (and sometimes pheonix) - he therefore ought to contribute to this effort.

The savings on this guy contribute towards more elite infantry, but it does mean you need to be careful with where you place him - I could be tempted to lose three lions and the crown for 4++, although with life he might well get earthblood and lifebloom so the point save can be further justified.

However, the most interesting feature of this mage is that IMO lore choice isn't that critical. My main combat blocks are the Pheonix Guard and the White Lions - both reasonably killy and decent anvils, but where buffs are required, the former prefers offensive and the later defensive. I'm currently running Life, which focusses on defense, although for me has two key spells: flesh to stone (+2T) and dwellers (particularly early game from BotWD lions).

The other key contender is Shadow (see here again: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=50386), which focusses more on offense, making PG more deadly (as well as core archers), but still has some protective potential (miasma, enfeeble).

But most of the lores seem viable given the role of this mage. Even much scorned fire brings chaff clearance galore and hopefully flaming sword for archers/PG. Beasts has Wyssans (much more castable on a Lv4 with BoH) and other worthies, even though this isn't a character focussed list. Metal has searing doom, almost turns archers into sisters, scaly skin and WMD spell. Heavens has nice buffs, debuffs and damage. Light has excellent Phas and timewarp. Death has snipes, Soulblight, Doom and Darkness (IMO an undercover gamechanger) and WMD. I've not been that impressed with High Wardmages (struggle to get enough spells off, especially when limited by being in combat), but its a perfectly viable lore too. While usually lore selection has a huge impact on gameplay and list-structure, in this army I think we can be quite flexible about lores. I don't think any lore is a stand-out must take option.

[solith]

I've been considering a scaled down version of this list (without the Phoenix) for 2k so it's good to see all your thoughts behind your choices.

Here's my thoughts and ideas:
- Your army has very little ranged threat. You have enough to deal with some chaff units but nothing more. With that in mind I think you'll often have to play quite aggressively. However, both your BSB and your level 2 really want to be in your Archer unit (imo) which means they'll potentially get left behind (and won't be in BSB range or close range for Wildforming) or they'll be advancing alongside/behind your infantry in which case their shooting will have less of an impact. I don't know if this is a problem as such but it's worth considering imo.

- Assuming you play scenarios, you have only one unit that can start in the Watchtower. If you choose to do that it means putting your squishy characters into your main combat blocks. The alternative would be to drop some of your core cavalry in favour of a second unit of Archers, but I think that would make the army weaker overall so I'd suggest keeping it the way it is.

- I briefly scanned your double Phoenix Guard/Shadow thread and you mentioned you didn't think the Loremaster gave enough for magic defense. I'd reconsider that here, because a Loremaster with the book and a level 2 with the scroll still has a reasonable amount of magic defense imo. Also I think that if you're ever going to use a Loremaster as your main caster then it should be with a list like this. A Loremaster will give you enough combat buffs/hexes to boost your combat blocks, magic missiles to back your Sisters up with and Searing Doom and Spirit Leech for dealing with big threats at range. It also gives you the option of the double signature (alongside the level 2) to give you 2 attempts at Wildform on your Phoenix Guard per turn, for example. Admittedly this probably means freeing up some points to give the Loremaster more protection, but you could probably afford to drop the Ring of Fury (less important once you have the Loremaster in the list) and a couple of White Lions to give him some protective gear.
Also a Loremaster might encourage you to not have all your characters in a single unit - at the moment your characters are all somewhat fragile but a Loremaster is possibly durable enough to wade into hand-to-hand with your combat blocks.


Other than those I don't think there's much else I'd really consider changing. I'd want to boost the Sisters up by to ~9 but I don't think it's worth dropping points from your specials to do that. You could give your BSB protective gear (Armour of Caledor or Shield of the Merwyrm) and use him in combat, but I think you'd be relying on magic to keep him alive and he's better off where he is. You could free up points to get a pair of Bolt Throwers for much stronger ranged threat, but paying for that might cost you too much out of your combat or magic strength so I'd certainly try the army as it is first.

Overall though I do really like the list.

[PurpleFlames]

28 White Lions with full command and BotWD
BotWD is a no brainer for this unit - beyond the obvious mage shielding benefits and protection from combat characters, 2++ vs magic combined with 3+AS vs shooting means that the only thing that can really hurt this unit before getting into combat is non-magical stone throwers

Wanted to field a similar army. Then learned the "2++ vs magic" actually only is a ward against WOUNDS from a magical source. And there are plenty of ways to just die. No wound, no ward, no nothing. So if you are hit by dwellers remove a 3rd of your unit. Mages even die at 50%.

And there are a couple of other spells ignoring these wards and MAGICAL RESISTANCE (!)... *rage mode off*

Apart from that a block of lions is pure awesomeness. But t3 and AS 5+ in cc doesnt give them much protection. Worst that could happen is a Character, Monster (possibly using the breathweapon in cc), Chariot (impact hits are evil for fragile elves), Monsterous whatever or (heavy) cav attacking your flank and kill a bunch of lions with only a few in base contact allowed to strike back. Until you reform for 2nd combat round.
That or being redirected, fled from or stalled with steadfast crap (skaven slaves, goblins, zombies, whatever) - wich you kill in droves without earning points, without making them run away and who still can kill a few lions every turn...

[Ferny]

@Solith
Glad you like it - let us know how your list goes at 2K. I think this is a pretty scalable model; you can lose or add core points happily, lose models or gain another unit of elites depending on points, and at a pinch lose a character. But the core centre of WL and PG should work at most points and the reavers/SH support them.

- Your army has very little ranged threat. You have enough to deal with some chaff units but nothing more...

True - I've ditched the supporting bolt throwers for more elite infantry and even swapped out the bows on the reavers, so shooting wise I'm limited to 6xS4 from the sisters, 17xS3 from the archers and 3xS5 from the BSB. All in all not a very impressive shooting phase. But then, how impressive can our shooting really be? More sisters, more S3 core and RBTs - despite our high BS I don't think HE play as a natural shooting army. What role does it play, generally and in this build? For me, I use it to target things I don't want to engage e.g. mangler squigs, chariots, hexwraiths etc. I don't have any really cheap units to push into manglers, I'd rather not risk chariot charge ranges, I've got NO magical combat weapons so would need to beat hexwraiths on CR. The sisters/BSB combo are useful for taking a wound or two off monsters so that I can take them out in one round before they thunderstomp me when we hit combat. Shooting is also useful, to me and more generally, for killing chaff. I don't really aim to do more than that with the shooting.

The other thing strong shooting/magic offense is good at is forcing the enemy to approach you, and for that I'm largely relying on magic - and even then it is variable - the ring is quite short range and dwellers needs to be rolled up, have dice and not get scrolled!...

I think my core cavalry replaces traditional shooting roles quite a bit - it works to kill chaff, last ditch disposable units, threatens backline and flanks, whilst protecting my flanks, as well as all the lovely fast cav flee stuff we can do.

...With that in mind I think you'll often have to play quite aggressively. However, both your BSB and your level 2 really want to be in your Archer unit (imo) which means they'll potentially get left behind (and won't be in BSB range or close range for Wildforming) or they'll be advancing alongside/behind your infantry in which case their shooting will have less of an impact. I don't know if this is a problem as such but it's worth considering imo.

...yes, I do tend to play it quite aggressively. To a large extent I need to pick my fights because I only have three serious combat blocks (including the pheonix!), but acknowledging that not all fights are good fights, all three units are actually safest in combat where they can do their thing. Also, it might take a couple of turns to grind out steadfast/break tests so I want that to happen sooner rather than later. Besides, as noted, my ranged threat is negligible! So unless my opponent has limited shooting and mostly augment/hex magic I will tend to bomb it up the board to the closest target - and as I have lots of drops from my 5-man core cavalry units, I can usually set up each of my combat blocks opposite their choice target. Alternatively I can try to force them forwards a bit with magic and cavalry and set up favourable charges - especially if there's a building or similar in front of my deployment which enemy units need to flow around, leaving a flank unsupported.

I tend to deploy my AM with the lions where they can benefit from earthblood vs shooting/war machines and he gets the BotWD benefit (and can be more free and easy with the dwellers dice without thrown up). Lions will usually march forward turn one about 10" (less if they expect to be charged T2 by something particularly nasty), then turn 2 they either hold to receive a charge and the AM hops backwards into a different unit or they charge in regardless and I trust my combat potential, limited return attacks, magical buffs and 3(4)W to keep the archmage alive.

The BSB and L2 tend to start in the PG, although I do mix it up according to terrain, opponents etc. BSB might go with archers if I'm not worried about target priority - or even with sisters if there's nothing which can target the unit at range. Beast mage might deploy in whichever unit is opposite hexwraiths/chaff so that he will get into range ASAP. But assuming PG deployment, I can then either push the PG up to close the range for the ring or sit tight and shoot if I get first turn - if I'm going second I can probably do both. This often means that I have a staggered line with the WL up front, but given their stubborn, Ld9 general and BSB they can hold the line well there and I can then support them or protect their flank with the PG so staggered isn't a problem. I generally try to jump all my characters out before hitting combat if possible. I'm not too precious about the L2 - once he's blown his scroll he is partially disposable, but he is better out of combat if for no other reason than to keep using his ring!

Jumping characters back does mean that my archers may need to move up sub-optimally. Ideally there's a hill involved but often there isn't and I just have to suck it up. This is OK if there isn't too much they need to do and bunker is their main role, even if I do lose out on some shooting. In that situation they become like a more expensive, much better quality, bunker that you traditionally see with scaven or VC, where the spellcaster is in a block sat right behind their main lines. But they do generally keep their shooty function beyond Stand and Shoot as I only have 2 (small frontage) infantry units and some very manoeuvrable cavalry to block LoS so I can still shoot at wider angles beyond the flanks of my advancing infantry.

- Assuming you play scenarios, you have only one unit that can start in the Watchtower. If you choose to do that it means putting your squishy characters into your main combat blocks. The alternative would be to drop some of your core cavalry in favour of a second unit of Archers, but I think that would make the army weaker overall so I'd suggest keeping it the way it is.

I tend not to play scenarios and I can see how I might struggle with watchtower. That said, depending on the troops inside it either the WL or PG unit are well suited to storming the building from T1 or 2 (assuming about 12" distance from deployment). As you say, I can't see an easy way around this without losing some of the army's strengths. Maybe dropping the Pheonix for a 20man PG unit?

- I briefly scanned your double Phoenix Guard/Shadow thread and you mentioned you didn't think the Loremaster gave enough for magic defense. I'd reconsider that here, because a Loremaster with the book and a level 2 with the scroll still has a reasonable amount of magic defense imo. Also I think that if you're ever going to use a Loremaster as your main caster then it should be with a list like this. A Loremaster will give you enough combat buffs/hexes to boost your combat blocks, magic missiles to back your Sisters up with and Searing Doom and Spirit Leech for dealing with big threats at range. It also gives you the option of the double signature (alongside the level 2) to give you 2 attempts at Wildform on your Phoenix Guard per turn, for example. Admittedly this probably means freeing up some points to give the Loremaster more protection, but you could probably afford to drop the Ring of Fury (less important once you have the Loremaster in the list) and a couple of White Lions to give him some protective gear.
Also a Loremaster might encourage you to not have all your characters in a single unit - at the moment your characters are all somewhat fragile but a Loremaster is possibly durable enough to wade into hand-to-hand with your combat blocks.

I agree that if you are ever going to use a LM this is the sort of list to do it in - he compliments the WL really well (a few more attacks, earthblood, Ld9 for stubborn, can charge in and be damned etc). I think he is a fun character and the toolbox he brings with him is great - something for every occasion and then a redundant spell for it too! I don't think his magic offense/defense is terrible, but I feel stronger with an AM. Given how flexible I feel about lore choice in this build and that they're roughly the same points I think this will largely come down to personal preference - they each fill the same roll pretty well.

Other than those I don't think there's much else I'd really consider changing. I'd want to boost the Sisters up by to ~9 but I don't think it's worth dropping points from your specials to do that. You could give your BSB protective gear (Armour of Caledor or Shield of the Merwyrm) and use him in combat, but I think you'd be relying on magic to keep him alive and he's better off where he is. You could free up points to get a pair of Bolt Throwers for much stronger ranged threat, but paying for that might cost you too much out of your combat or magic strength so I'd certainly try the army as it is first.

Yeah, a few more sisters would guarantee they get the job done rather than being close to the line with 6, but I agree that I'd rather spend the points in special (also, they're a vulnerable unit and 6 surrenders less points, albeit not much in it, but it makes me more relaxed about accepting them as casualties). Like I said in the other thread, I think the foot-combat BSB is dead. It can be done but I don't think it is worth it - his reaver role is good enough and gives my shooting phase the slight edge it needs. I actually started my 8th ed list with RBTs and just confirmed to myself that I still didn't like them even at their reduced price, so I switched to flaming DPs and then to more elite infantry. I think RBTs are vulnerable and don't reliably offer anything this list can't do already.

[Ferny]

28 White Lions with full command and BotWD
BotWD is a no brainer for this unit - beyond the obvious mage shielding benefits and protection from combat characters, 2++ vs magic combined with 3+AS vs shooting means that the only thing that can really hurt this unit before getting into combat is non-magical stone throwers

Wanted to field a similar army. Then learned the "2++ vs magic" actually only is a ward against WOUNDS from a magical source. And there are plenty of ways to just die. No wound, no ward, no nothing. So if you are hit by dwellers remove a 3rd of your unit. Mages even die at 50%.

And there are a couple of other spells ignoring these wards and MAGICAL RESISTANCE (!)... *rage mode off*

Apart from that a block of lions is pure awesomeness. But t3 and AS 5+ in cc doesnt give them much protection. Worst that could happen is a Character, Monster (possibly using the breathweapon in cc), Chariot (impact hits are evil for fragile elves), Monsterous whatever or (heavy) cav attacking your flank and kill a bunch of lions with only a few in base contact allowed to strike back. Until you reform for 2nd combat round.
That or being redirected, fled from or stalled with steadfast crap (skaven slaves, goblins, zombies, whatever) - wich you kill in droves without earning points, without making them run away and who still can kill a few lions every turn...

Yes, I should edit the original post to add WMD spells to the list of things which can kill it dead.

Agreed that big tarpits (especially if deployed deep rather than horde) are a pain in the butt - the PG would be the better candidate to engage them given the choice. I'm not too worried about redirection etc because I think I should win the chaff war with my cav/shooting/magic.

I did get flamed in the flank by a flying chimera recently and that wasn't nice and yes, flank charges, chariot charges and nasties like characters or monsters will kill a bunch of these guys...but that's why I like having it as a big unit, it can absorb some damage and still strike back hard! And on stubborn 8 (or 9, with possible re-roll) I should be able to reform to face flank if required. That said, I should be protecting one flank with terrain/cav and the other with the PG, so I'd hopefully not be getting flank charged unless I were baiting a counter charge.

[solith]

@Solith
Glad you like it - let us know how your list goes at 2K. I think this is a pretty scalable model; you can lose or add core points happily, lose models or gain another unit of elites depending on points, and at a pinch lose a character. But the core centre of WL and PG should work at most points and the reavers/SH support them.

Indeed I like that it is scaleable in a way that dragon lists for example aren't. I'm not suggesting this for you but I'm curious how it manages without Silver Helms and simply with Reavers and Archers as core. I won't be trying any variant of this list for a while certainly but I'll be sure to report on it.

...yes, I do tend to play it quite aggressively... (CUT) ...I generally try to jump all my characters out before hitting combat if possible. I'm not too precious about the L2 - once he's blown his scroll he is partially disposable, but he is better out of combat if for no other reason than to keep using his ring!

You've clearly thought this through very well while managing to avoid being stuck in certain patterns. (i.e. 'this character goes in that unit, which deploys in this formation... always) I think that the potential shooting you lose from advancing with your Archers shouldn't be too much of a problem. With all your cavalry and the Ring of Fury you have enough other forms of chaff control at your disposal. If you find that their shooting is consistently doing nothing I wonder if it would be worth swapping them to a Spearman bunker with the Banner of Discipline. If you continue to bounce your characters around the +1 LD won't always be in affect (which is fine imo) but it would make your bunker slightly tougher. I don't think this is a change I'd ever really go for but it's worth a mention.

I tend not to play scenarios and I can see how I might struggle with watchtower. That said, depending on the troops inside it either the WL or PG unit are well suited to storming the building from T1 or 2 (assuming about 12" distance from deployment). As you say, I can't see an easy way around this without losing some of the army's strengths. Maybe dropping the Pheonix for a 20man PG unit?

If you don't play scenarios often then I don't think it's worth changing your list for a single scenario you'll play significantly less than 1/6th of the time. I'd also really suggest against swapping the Phoenix for Phoenix Guard. I think if you did that swap it would make a large change in your army's speed and maneuverability beyond the fact that you're dropping a flying unit for an infantry one. By adding in another main-line combat unit you're making your 'battle line' (to whatever extent you have one) at least 6" wider, you're adding another block your units will have to factor in while moving, you reduce both the likeliness and the effectiveness of combined charges - all for better building assaults and less targets for enemy cannons. Not worth it imo.

I don't think his magic offense/defense is terrible, but I feel stronger with an AM. Given how flexible I feel about lore choice in this build and that they're roughly the same points I think this will largely come down to personal preference - they each fill the same roll pretty well.

I really like that the Archmage and Loremaster are almost the same points, it makes swapping from one to the other very easy. Going back to your original post I agree that pretty much every lore seems viable with this list. I am not for a second trying to say that the Archmage is the wrong choice here, in fact I think it's probably the slightly stronger (if more straightforward) choice. I think part of my reason for wanting a Loremaster in this type of list is that I don't then have to chose a lore. I've been trying to decide which lore I'd use with your list and I can't decide, there are too many good options.

One last factor in deciding between the Archmage and the Loremaster: the Loremaster gives you more freedom to choose your level 2's lore. Personally I'd want either Searing Doom or Wildform in the list somehow, which means that taking a Heavens Archmage (as a random example) pigeonholes the support mage into one of two lores. That being said, even with a Loremaster I think the choice of good lores for the level 2 is more limited than for the level 4. For example If I were to use a Loremaster with this list I'd still never take Life on the level 2, and I seriously doubt I'd ever take Light or Death.

I actually started my 8th ed list with RBTs and just confirmed to myself that I still didn't like them even at their reduced price, so I switched to flaming DPs and then to more elite infantry. I think RBTs are vulnerable and don't reliably offer anything this list can't do already.

One thing I'm not sure that you've considered is how 2-3 Bolt Throwers will make your opponent react. Even if they accomplish very little with their shooting, if their mere presence makes your opponent play cautiously with his big gribbly monsters or Monstrous Cavalry etc then that may still be worth the points spent if it helps you win. They are quite weak but against certain targets their potential is reasonably strong. That ability to threaten larger/stronger targets from range is something that nothing else in the book can really do - apart from specific spells that might not even be cast. Whether or not this worth it is another matter entirely.


I think in the end I agree with all of your reasoning and your answers to my questions/thoughts/ideas and I think it's a very good list. There are various things you could change to make the list more capable of dealing with every possible threat and to give you more tools to use but I feel that none of those changes are worth what they'd cost. Overally there isn't a single thing in your original list I can point to and say 'I think that's not such a good choice' or 'I think this would be better'.

I would love to hear how the army performs. (Or even get some full battle reports! )

[Ferny]

I'm not suggesting this for you but I'm curious how it manages without Silver Helms and simply with Reavers and Archers as core. I won't be trying any variant of this list for a while certainly but I'll be sure to report on it.

I think all reaver/archer core would work better against some armies and worse against others. For example, against WoC or OK you want as many redirectors as possible and the cavalry threat in combat is relatively less. However, by contrast against skinks or even high elves (with RBTs and archers) reavers are very vulnerable - I was taught that lesson very brutally! So I think the mix is a more balanced approach for all-comers lists, but all one or t'other should work too against the right opponents.

I think that the potential shooting you lose from advancing with your Archers shouldn't be too much of a problem. With all your cavalry and the Ring of Fury you have enough other forms of chaff control at your disposal. If you find that their shooting is consistently doing nothing I wonder if it would be worth swapping them to a Spearman bunker with the Banner of Discipline. If you continue to bounce your characters around the +1 LD won't always be in affect (which is fine imo) but it would make your bunker slightly tougher. I don't think this is a change I'd ever really go for but it's worth a mention.

Hmmm, yes, worth a thought - I hadn't really considered it. However, I maybe over-stated how little I can get out of archers. It depends a bit on match ups but I think on balance I'd rather have them than not. I'd also be quite worried about losing the shooting it does bring - I'd be left with just sisters and reaver bow which isn't enough to do the shooting job vs manglers, chariots etc. I don't expect (or ask for) much from S3 shooting, but having one block of it does serve a role. Also, with spears I think I'd be tempted to deploy them as another line unit rather than a backline support - there's absolutely no need to do that, but I can see that I'd be tempted!

I'd also really suggest against swapping the Phoenix for Phoenix Guard. I think if you did that swap it would make a large change in your army's speed and maneuverability beyond the fact that you're dropping a flying unit for an infantry one. By adding in another main-line combat unit you're making your 'battle line' (to whatever extent you have one) at least 6" wider, you're adding another block your units will have to factor in while moving, you reduce both the likeliness and the effectiveness of combined charges - all for better building assaults and less targets for enemy cannons. Not worth it imo.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you. I hadn't really thought about it until recently when I played a 3K game vs dwarves where I simply upped a unit of helms to 10 and added a second PG unit (with discipline). This worked really well, although of course I had the birdie too (who really overperformed, making 6 ward saves over 5 turns of war machine shooting!). Point for point I think the PG would be better but I do like the variety which the bird brings...plus I've converted a skycutter to use instead .

One last factor in deciding between the Archmage and the Loremaster: the Loremaster gives you more freedom to choose your level 2's lore. Personally I'd want either Searing Doom or Wildform in the list somehow, which means that taking a Heavens Archmage (as a random example) pigeonholes the support mage into one of two lores. That being said, even with a Loremaster I think the choice of good lores for the level 2 is more limited than for the level 4. For example If I were to use a Loremaster with this list I'd still never take Life on the level 2, and I seriously doubt I'd ever take Light or Death.

I'm not sure how much more flexibility the loremaster brings to L2 selection - you still need to be looking for a lore with a solid and low casting value signature. I think it probably rules out fire as the LM has loads of MM to choose from (with the added BoH bonus), double beasts sounds fun and gives redundancy if one Wyssans is dispelled but the casting value is a bit high so you do need to commit. You don't need to do metal for seering doom as you already have that. The more I think about it the more Heavens stands out to me as the go-to support for a loremaster - double iceshard is cheap and doable, works vs stone throwers (already identified as a big threat) and in combat...hmmm, yeah, I'm definitely starting to think Heavens on that build.

One thing I'm not sure that you've considered is how 2-3 Bolt Throwers will make your opponent react. Even if they accomplish very little with their shooting, if their mere presence makes your opponent play cautiously with his big gribbly monsters or Monstrous Cavalry etc then that may still be worth the points spent if it helps you win. They are quite weak but against certain targets their potential is reasonably strong. That ability to threaten larger/stronger targets from range is something that nothing else in the book can really do - apart from specific spells that might not even be cast. Whether or not this worth it is another matter entirely.

That's the crux of it right there. This list consciously omits RBTs and subsequently loses the benefits you describe above. I think this is the biggest difference between my list and Tethlis' (also lore choice - he's rocking Shadow). I've folded the points in to boost the infantry numbers. I don't know which list is 'better' - I suspect they might both be pretty close to optimised but operate in slightly different ways.

I think in the end I agree with all of your reasoning and your answers to my questions/thoughts/ideas and I think it's a very good list. There are various things you could change to make the list more capable of dealing with every possible threat and to give you more tools to use but I feel that none of those changes are worth what they'd cost. Overally there isn't a single thing in your original list I can point to and say 'I think that's not such a good choice' or 'I think this would be better'.

I would love to hear how the army performs. (Or even get some full battle reports! )

Thanks . I'm hoping there will be people here who can poke holes in it based on their wider experience against more opponents and armies so that I can consider 'fixes'...but I'm also hoping it'll hold its own . I try to get a game in each week so I might start writing *short* bat reps, although I'm not sure I'm organised enough to take photos/remember troop movements etc. It would probably help my play plenty if I did post bat reps and get feedback - I've seen some great breakdowns on here.

[Ferny]

OK, with the advent of dark elves on the scene I feel I need some more shooting power. (I also got outgunned by woodies last night - it was my first ever encounter with them and a few things went wrong which I'd want to improve on for next time, but fair play to my opponent.

The obvious answer would be a brace of RBTs. I hate them, I trialled them briefly, I ditched them (again), I still hate them, but against MSU or elves or anywhere that I need more shooting they'd be the answer.

The question is what to drop to put them in?

Options are:
1. BSB (reaver/pot strength) - this replaces BSB re-rolls and 3xBS6 S5(8) shots with 12xBS4 S4 AP shots

2. 2nd Mage (ring of fury/scroll, lv 2 celestial) - this replaces magical redundancy and spell choice, scroll and 2D6 S4 hits (cast on 3+ but dispellable) with 12xBS4 S4 AP shots.

3. 10 WL/PG or 5ish off each - this reduces the staying power (and subsequently damage output) of my main combat blocks

4. Frostie - this would actually get me 3xRBT, i.e. 18 BS4 S4 AP shots

All these elements add unique features to my list and I'm loath to lose any of them, so suggestions as to which I can cull most sustainably welcome!


P.S. An alternative option would be to drop 1 unit of silver helms and replace it with 12 more archers and go with either High (Hand of Glory) or Shadow (-D3T, Mindrazor)...but that feels a fairly retrograde step now that we've got a new book with lovely new core choices

[John Rainbow]

I've been running a very similar list at 2500pts:

Archmage(4)[Shadow] + Book, 4++
BSB + HA, Ench.Sh, Reaver Bow, Pot.Str

3 x 5 Reavers w/bow
24 Archers + std,mus
10 Archers + mus

21 White Lions + FC, BotWD
24 Phoenix Guard + FC, Razor Banner

7 Sisters of Avelorn
4 x RBT
Frost Phoenix

I really like the ranged abilities of the list and the archer core really helps against DEs. My main issues at the moment are getting flaming attacks in (need to be able to handle Nurgle daemons) and I'm not too enamored by Shadow magic at the moment although I think this might need further play-testing. Just posting in case it gives you any ideas.

[Ferny]

Thanks John.

Looks like you've combined losing the support mage and some lions (along with an extra 100pts limit) to hit the target 2x RBT and then go through the ceiling, aside from the core set-up changes.

So the big questions for you, if I were to adapt my list in this direction:
1. Do you miss the dispel scroll?
2. Do you miss access to cheap MM? (I'm guessing you need this less as your chaff clearance options look very good)
3. Do you miss the extra spells a support mage brings, both in terms of flexibility of spell choice and in terms of having a back-up following miscasts or mishaps?

Cheers,
Ferny

P.S. How do I change the topic title? I've edited the subject line to "2,400 Infantry List - what to drop for 2xRBT?" but its not coming up when I post.

[vladamex]

P.S. How do I change the topic title? I've edited the subject line to "2,400 Infantry List - what to drop for 2xRBT?" but its not coming up when I post.

Replying here since this may be useful/interesting for other folks as well:

In order to change the thread title, you need to edit the title of the first post in the thread.

Cheers!

[Ferny]

P.S. How do I change the topic title? I've edited the subject line to "2,400 Infantry List - what to drop for 2xRBT?" but its not coming up when I post.

Replying here since this may be useful/interesting for other folks as well:

In order to change the thread title, you need to edit the title of the first post in the thread.

Cheers!

Thanks - done

[Skaapie]

The infantry list with White Lions and Pheonix Guard is my standard list i just like them. This is the list i am taking to a tourney this weekend, also in another thread on this forum:

Lord
Archmage lvl 4 beasts
Talisman of preservation

Heros
Mage lvl1 Heavens
Dispel Scroll
Noble BSB
Armour of Calendor, Halberd

Core
30 Spearmen Full command
10 Archers
5 Reavers, bows/spears/muso
5 Reavers, bows/spears/muso

Special
23 Pheonix Guard Full command
21 White Lions Banner of World Dragon, muso
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare
Frostheart Pheonix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Slight note is the list is designed for a comped tourney so if i go to heavy on shooting it will get hit, however the spearmen do generally work well as an anchor to draw people in. Also i dont like using heavy Cav

So the base thing to get the Bolt Throwers is i use a smaller unit of White Lions which really seems to work, also didnt drop the 2nd mage just dropped it to level 1 as i find all my dice just go to the level 4. I want to use the razor standard on the Pheonix Guard just never find the points . Beast magic i find is my favorite for this as it is aggressive which is my play style. My BSB goes a little different as i find i need to run him in one of the units as otherwise he is out of range. Also makes a good target for Savage beast to add some hit to the Pheonix Guard.

[Ferny]

Thanks for the list Skaapie!

You lose 7 WL and their champ (101pts), no razor (45), Lv2 -> Lv1 (35pts), less kit on the AM (20) and no ring on the Lv2 (25), some BSB kit (8?) and one sister aka SW in your list (14).

This gets you enough points for 2xRBT (my target) plus 2x eagles (or 1.5 RBT if I were to cut harder and faster).

So the questions on how this list plays for you (basically does each of those cuts work for you!):

1. Do the white lions have the numbers to win with attrition? Once you start losing a few to missiles/spells and then combat their hit rate drops off - can they still perform their job adequately at such a small (well, medium) unit size? This is the 'easiest' place to scrape the points from so at least some lions are likely to see the cull from my list (of 28).

2. Don't you find the PG utility plummets without the banner? They're categorically the best unit I can think of for mashing up cheap stuff and generating awesome CR, but with the banner they're also a reasonable threat against cav etc. I'm asking out of curiosity but I can't see me taking this option tbh.

3. Back-up wizard...I get that most of the dice will be allocated to the Lv4 but...when you do need to cast with the Lv1 (e.g. iceshard) do you risk the 6 on 2D6 with a Lv1 as opposed to the 5 with a Lv2? You should still get it but the extra pip makes a big difference IMO. Also, do you not miss the option of 2D6 S4 hits on a 3+ or forcing your oponent to burn dice? Especially with your magic set-up which relatively lacks MM and god-spell unit killers...

4. I'm reasonably content to drop the crown on the AM if I have to, although its so cheap you almost might as well give him a pseudo 4th wound. I'm curious that you're not running the BoH with your AM - I'd prioritise it over the 4++ to really maximise what he's there for rather than hedging bets on him surviving...but then your list looks more aggressive than mine and I can see him getting into combat quite quickly...

[Skaapie]

Thanks for the list Skaapie!

You lose 7 WL and their champ (101pts), no razor (45), Lv2 -> Lv1 (35pts), less kit on the AM (20) and no ring on the Lv2 (25), some BSB kit (8?) and one sister aka SW in your list (14).

This gets you enough points for 2xRBT (my target) plus 2x eagles (or 1.5 RBT if I were to cut harder and faster).

So the questions on how this list plays for you (basically does each of those cuts work for you!):

1. Do the white lions have the numbers to win with attrition? Once you start losing a few to missiles/spells and then combat their hit rate drops off - can they still perform their job adequately at such a small (well, medium) unit size? This is the 'easiest' place to scrape the points from so at least some lions are likely to see the cull from my list (of 28).

2. Don't you find the PG utility plummets without the banner? They're categorically the best unit I can think of for mashing up cheap stuff and generating awesome CR, but with the banner they're also a reasonable threat against cav etc. I'm asking out of curiosity but I can't see me taking this option tbh.

3. Back-up wizard...I get that most of the dice will be allocated to the Lv4 but...when you do need to cast with the Lv1 (e.g. iceshard) do you risk the 6 on 2D6 with a Lv1 as opposed to the 5 with a Lv2? You should still get it but the extra pip makes a big difference IMO. Also, do you not miss the option of 2D6 S4 hits on a 3+ or forcing your oponent to burn dice? Especially with your magic set-up which relatively lacks MM and god-spell unit killers...

4. I'm reasonably content to drop the crown on the AM if I have to, although its so cheap you almost might as well give him a pseudo 4th wound. I'm curious that you're not running the BoH with your AM - I'd prioritise it over the 4++ to really maximise what he's there for rather than hedging bets on him surviving...but then your list looks more aggressive than mine and I can see him getting into combat quite quickly...

1) I play the list very aggressive so i generally find i am in combat turn 2 maybe 3 and just don't find i lose enough to attrition to worry me, still got a 3+ save against shooting. Had 1 game where god-spell smashed them but otherwise the 21 has done very well for me. I find it takes a lot of focus to really take them down which leaves the rest of the army free. Also enough small units that will take a fair amount of shooting to start with.

2) Honestly i can never personally justify it, i would rather have the extra eagle than the banner. I run lore of beasts for wildform on the PG which does the work of the banner plus more. I have had 1 or 2 games where it would of come in useful but generally they have been fine without it.

3) This one is a risk for this particular list and do miss a leval 2 a little but honestly have been running just the level 4 for a while without a 2nd mage. I wanted it more for a 2nd channel than anything else to be honest. Dropped it to level 1 for extra troops was originally planned as level 2. Any magic i might cast with the level 1 it would be useful but nothing i would be relying on, would normally go 2 dice with him. I have honestly found that magic fails me to often that i want it to do a little but i don't rely on anything actually coming from it. Its a risk will see how it goes on the weekend

4) As i said with the list this is for a comped tournament. You pick either BoH or Banner of WD, if you take both your comp drops through the floor. So was a pure comp decision as i find the banner better. Yes, my list and play style is very aggressive so does end up in the Lions or PG in combat and needs the extra survival.

Hope that helps explain. Let me know if you have any other queries

[Ferny]

That's great, cheers. I'll think about the level drop to save 2-3 infantry from the chop (its hard to gauge the effect of magic with me exactly because I'm still experimenting with lores).

I guess if I'm unwilling to drop the BSB or the back-up mage entirely then the points will have to basically come out of the infantry...

[John Rainbow]

Thanks John.

Looks like you've combined losing the support mage and some lions (along with an extra 100pts limit) to hit the target 2x RBT and then go through the ceiling, aside from the core set-up changes.

So the big questions for you, if I were to adapt my list in this direction:
1. Do you miss the dispel scroll?
2. Do you miss access to cheap MM? (I'm guessing you need this less as your chaff clearance options look very good)
3. Do you miss the extra spells a support mage brings, both in terms of flexibility of spell choice and in terms of having a back-up following miscasts or mishaps?

1. No but I'm sure there will be a moment that comes up when I will. The BoH for the most part, is good enough to mitigate not having a scroll in most games - especially nowadays when so few opponents get access to additional dice generation methods. The caddy is also the points for 2 RBTs (almost) and which do I feel has more impact on the game? At the moment that is the RBTs.

2. No. I have enough shooting in the list to deal with most anything. Reaver bow and sisters are good for dealing with ethereal chaff (I usually deploy the reaver bow noble in a combat unit so he can pick a different target to the other shooters). Along these lines, I really like the BSB with Pot.Str, he can shoot something off the table in the turn he drinks it, or, if he doesn't get the chance, you can always punk someone unsuspecting in CC.

3. Not as such. The only thing I felt I lacked in recent games was flaming combat attacks (not easy to get with a support mage due to random spell generation). If I did take a support mage I would either look at High magic for its utility and great signatures or heavens for its synergy with the combat units (-1 to hit signature) - we all know how awful fighting Nurgle stuff is!

[Ferny]

Thanks John.

I think I'd miss the crutch of a scroll and I've definitely had games where the second mage has worked well for me so I'm not sure I'm brave enough to drop him...

[Ferny]

OK, I've been thinking this over a lot. I'm worried that I need 2x bolt throwers. I'd also like to boost my sisters slightly. Those are my goals.

I know how good the frostie is - high movement, ward save protection vs cannons, ASL aura vs vamps/DE etc, -1S aura, etc. There's no denying this is a high quality monster, and respectably priced. And he's performed well enough for me too (most epically surviving an entire battle vs dwarf gunline). But I'm not sure I *need* him. He's a fantastic support unit but he's often off chasing down targets solo and not giving the support to my units that I'd ideally want (because for so many points I need him to be active). I've had him lock-down a hell cannon, a chimera, awkward fast cav that was out of range/arc of other stuff etc. He's very versatile and in part because of that I feel I'm maybe not getting the most out of him. I never really used monsters before and I'm not sure I get on with their dynamic. Losing him loses my biggest cannon target and I'd still have good board control from the replacement 3xRBTs (and some extra sisters to bulk up their squad).

Is this madness? Please talk me out of dropping him - he's clearly awesome and gets bandied around as a no-brainer. And I hate RBTs, why would I ditch him for that junk? But what else can I drop (assuming I'm right and not just panicking about all the DE talk I'm seeing)?

FWIW, here are my other options and why I'm currently refusing them (bit of a re-hash):

I'm pretty solidly attached to having a BSB. He's very tempting to shave off, but he reduces variance sooooo much. And if I am going to pay so much for him, I might as well make him the utility BSB he is.

I'm also pretty impressed with the performance of my back-up mage. He's more than just a caddy - he also offers my very useful spell selection options and with Life/Shadow on my AM he offers useful offensive potential too, as both those powerful lores lack MM. I could knock him to Lv 1 and I could remove the ring, but both seem like good investments on him (and he starts to become 'just' a caddy then).

My AM is already pretty bare-bones. BoH is a no-brainer and the crown is basically a 10pts 4th Wound for him, given no armour or other wards. So not a lot to shave there (if anything I'd like the 4++ crutch to not need to be quite so very careful with him, but I've made the decision to swop it for 3x elite infantry models instead).

So what's left to cut from?

Well, there's the elite infantry - the lions being the obvious candidate as the 4th rank (28 models) is redundant and just there to absorb casualties. I could maybe get away with less with Life (or maybe even High) but I'd be worried about attrition with Shadow - and I still haven't settled on one of these for my AM. The BotWD stays though - it's a solid no-brainer for this unit (it does compete with other nice banners for them, but IMO it blows them out the water).

What about the pheonix guard then? They're only 23 models to start with, but wounds wise this is a big unit (kinda counts as 46 with the ward!). But I like their offensive output and I can't really knock afford to knock it back much. This army is built around the two big(ish) elite infantry blacks, and between MP, ASF, WS5, S4 and the AP banner these guys are a pretty solid blender - I'd rate them above swordies because they give away so much less CR and stand more chance of getting into combat intact. And while initially I was just following web-wisdom in giving them a whopping 45pt banner (instead of Ld or flaming), I'm completely sold on it now. 1+ units need to think twice about fighting this block and they can deal respectably with anything less.

[John Rainbow]

The phoenix is absolutely boss against some lists. In my last two games he has won me the game single-handed - Temple Guard can't handle a phoenix without magical help. Against others he isn't as good (Ogres for one) but for those times when he does win the game for you, he's worth it by a long way.

My advice would be to remove a few WLs and see where you get (probably take enough for a single extra RBT). I run 21 and they do pretty well after whittling down opponents with shooting. I also only run 7 sisters and they seem to work out pretty well. I imagine you'll be ok with the 6 you have now.

[Jimmy]

Hey Ferny

Just want to say its a pleasure reading your analysis and watching your army list evolve. Great to see.

[Ferny]

The phoenix is absolutely boss against some lists. In my last two games he has won me the game single-handed - Temple Guard can't handle a phoenix without magical help. Against others he isn't as good (Ogres for one) but for those times when he does win the game for you, he's worth it by a long way.

My advice would be to remove a few WLs and see where you get (probably take enough for a single extra RBT). I run 21 and they do pretty well after whittling down opponents with shooting. I also only run 7 sisters and they seem to work out pretty well. I imagine you'll be ok with the 6 you have now.

What armies do you find the pheonix excels against? I think I can handle temple guard without him (although of course he's good - he's good against most stuff). I'm wondering whether I *need* him though, and whether he's going to outperform 3x RBTs? Or indeed, whether if I do need 2 RBTs, keeping him in is better than dropping the size of my WL.

I think RBTs are a bit all or nothing - I don't like them but to be half way effective I think you need more than one - 2 as a minimum, 3-4 probably ideal. I'm reluctant to make any major changes to get just 1 (if I were to, I'd maybe drop Lv2 to Lv1 and make up the points by culling some lions?).

I've been quite impressed with my 6 sisters so far, but I have felt myself wanting a couple more. I've been thinking about culling a couple of lions for sisters (the lions can easily handle a drop of 2-3, but the sisters would vastly improve with that). But combined with trying to squeeze in RBTs I don't want the whole cull to be lions. I can see 6 working just fine but I'd like to try more rather than less if anything.

For the moment I'm definitely leaning towards no frostie. I might see whether I can get a couple of back-to-back games as 'controlled experiments'. Of course there's dice, tactics, table sides etc, but as controlled as possible whilst still being fun. This may turn out to be a really bad idea - like I keep saying, I HATE RBTs - but I think I'll give it a go.

Jimmy
Just want to say its a pleasure reading your analysis and watching your army list evolve. Great to see.

Thanks Jimmy . It's great to get feedback/feed-in from Ulthuan. I really love the nerdy list building and theoryhammer side of the hobby to the point of being quite boring at the club so its nice to have such an open outlet to bounce ideas around .

[John Rainbow]

The Frost Phoenix really excels against anything infantry based as he can either help you out in a nasty combat by reducing the strength of an incoming attack or, as I've more often found myself doing, locking up a horde of infantry (anything up to Str.5) for the entire game and usually killing it and coming out the other side by the end. This is a great help not only in killing a unit, but also in dictating where the fighting happens and giving the opponent problems.

As for the RBTs, I am increasingly finding them very hit or miss (excuse the pun). They either do really well or very badly. I'm still don't like that I have to take them but I can't see myself dropping them due to the sheer potential that they do have when things go right for them. Sorry if this comment isn't very helpful

[ElderlyElf]

I played in a local tournament yesterday, and my last game was against an all goblin army. He had 5 spear chukkas, 2 rock lobbers, 2 doom divers, and that FW squig spitting thing. The bolt throwers played absolute hell with my 33 White Lions. Admittedly he rolled well, but that ignore armor save rule meant that they were completely helpless. The doom divers kept my reavers from getting across to hassle the war machines, and the eagles just died. It's making me consider Phoenix Guard, I tell you.

[Skaapie]

I think it depends how you use the bolties, i use them to clear fast cav and re-directors from the table. Then do some damage to other units. The frostie is a complete game change and a genuine threat unit. I like the idea of having 3 strong units that can break others in combat, especially when one is highly maneuverable. Bolties are useful just think the frostie is better.

Played a tournament this weekend and he was basically the star for me as he broke or held units i would of struggled to deal with otherwise. Almost the first unit in any list i make these days.

[Ferny]

The Frost Phoenix really excels against anything infantry based as he can either help you out in a nasty combat by reducing the strength of an incoming attack or, as I've more often found myself doing, locking up a horde of infantry (anything up to Str.5) for the entire game and usually killing it and coming out the other side by the end. This is a great help not only in killing a unit, but also in dictating where the fighting happens and giving the opponent problems.

As for the RBTs, I am increasingly finding them very hit or miss (excuse the pun). They either do really well or very badly. I'm still don't like that I have to take them but I can't see myself dropping them due to the sheer potential that they do have when things go right for them. Sorry if this comment isn't very helpful

The problem I've had pitting him against infantry blocks (solo) is that if he rolls poorly on thunderstomp he can (and often does) lose combat and break (I know he's high Ld, but he isn't stubborn and he can be losing by a bit if he doesn't hit hard enough). He's not got huge number of attacks, and while the WS and S are both very good, there aren't re-rolls, so he can be dependent on the thunderstomp to get past the static CR of +4 (banner+ranks) of whatever he's fighting, especially if they hold after his charge...and if he locks them down for a while he's also locked in place, and it's a big ol'flank he's presenting. Maybe I've just been unfortunate in my match ups but I'm now wary of doing this solo.

That said, I agree that the RBTs are hit or miss - they've mostly been miss in my experience. I think I'll try without the frostie and if I miss him too much I'll cut down the lions to get 2xrbts.

[Ferny]

I think it depends how you use the bolties, i use them to clear fast cav and re-directors from the table. Then do some damage to other units. The frostie is a complete game change and a genuine threat unit. I like the idea of having 3 strong units that can break others in combat, especially when one is highly maneuverable. Bolties are useful just think the frostie is better.

Played a tournament this weekend and he was basically the star for me as he broke or held units i would of struggled to deal with otherwise. Almost the first unit in any list i make these days.

Hmmmm, I may end up switching it around and culling the lions a bit for 2xRBT instead of 3x and no frostie, we'll see. I think I've got good chaff clearance and I really want the RBTs to be putting wounds onto terrorgheists, nurgle beasts, chariots, dark elf infantry and other things which might need thinning down before combat, rather than clearing chaff.

[Ferny]

As for the RBTs, I am increasingly finding them very hit or miss (excuse the pun). They either do really well or very badly. I'm still don't like that I have to take them but I can't see myself dropping them due to the sheer potential that they do have when things go right for them. Sorry if this comment isn't very helpful

First trial of my no frostie/3xRBT last night vs Chaos Dwarves proves your point beautifully. 2xRBT on a hill shooting at 5 wolf riders at close range only managed to kill three between them. They then passed their panic check, charged the first RBT, tanked their armour saves, over-ran into the second, tanked again. Seriously, dammit RBTs, you're meant to excel at killing fast cav! And my third one failed to do anything all game either, but did at least survive because it wasn't enough of a threat for my opponent to bother with.

I think I'll try them for one more game (as I deployed really badly and fell apart pretty quickly) and will then likely either cull the lions for two and return frostie or keep my original list and ditch the idea of RBTs. I really want to like them against chariots, DPs, terrorgeists, nurgle and the new dark elves...but yeah, I'd forgotten how much I dislike them!

[finreir]

As for the RBTs, I am increasingly finding them very hit or miss (excuse the pun). They either do really well or very badly. I'm still don't like that I have to take them but I can't see myself dropping them due to the sheer potential that they do have when things go right for them. Sorry if this comment isn't very helpful

First trial of my no frostie/3xRBT last night vs Chaos Dwarves proves your point beautifully. 2xRBT on a hill shooting at 5 wolf riders at close range only managed to kill three between them. They then passed their panic check, charged the first RBT, tanked their armour saves, over-ran into the second, tanked again. Seriously, dammit RBTs, you're meant to excel at killing fast cav! And my third one failed to do anything all game either, but did at least survive because it wasn't enough of a threat for my opponent to bother with.

I think I'll try them for one more game (as I deployed really badly and fell apart pretty quickly) and will then likely either cull the lions for two and return frostie or keep my original list and ditch the idea of RBTs. I really want to like them against chariots, DPs, terrorgeists, nurgle and the new dark elves...but yeah, I'd forgotten how much I dislike them!

im sorry but i dont think you played very well, some silver helms (that you have above and i cant see what else they do in the match up) or reavers should have been baby sitting those bolt throwers. When you spend 210 on bolt throwers you make one of 2 choices either you dont need them that game and leave them, or you need them and look after them and spend another circa 100 points to guard them. Usually you also deploy them very wide if you are not going to guard them wolf riders should not be getting 2 for the price of one.

My post is not meant in any way to be offensive its just to help you tactically, BS shooting is unreliable there is no way I would be allowing wolf riders toward my bolt assuming i would shoot them off if i decided I want to keep my bolt throwers I would guard them either with a baby helm unit, some reavers, a chariot, archers, or lastly sometimes even my frostie at least until the immediate danger has been dissapated.

I wish you better luck for the future with the RBT and with your list in general

[Ferny]

Thanks Finreir, that's good advice. My excuse is just inexperience, both with using RBTs (and not relevant to your point, but adding to my poor deployment/play that game, had never faced CD or seen the book), so advice all the more welcome.

You're absolutely right though, none of my cavalry had a big role in that game (my reavers should have been stronger re-directors but weren't), so there were definitely units available to babysit. I actually let his wolf riders fast cav their way behind my lines because I thought 12xBS4 S4 AP shots...thats 8 hits, 4-5 wounds, unit dead/panic test/beatable in combat with crew (worst case scenario). I basically figured he was throwing away his unit...but looking back I was taking a risk even on average numbers and I completely hadn't factored in the unreliability of BS shooting!