The Defense [ETC]

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Furion
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The Defense [ETC]

#1 Post by Furion »

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In this thread I will post my thoughts on the list based on the idea of being defensive and let the enemy come to you. In the future I will do defense related tacticas and battle reports in this very topic.

Up to date list:

Code: Select all

Archmage, 285
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Heaven
Book of Hoeth [55.0]
Golden Crown of Atrazar [10.0]

Mage, 135
Magic Level 1; Lore of Beasts
Dispel Scroll [25.0]
Khaine's Ring of Fury [25.0]

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, 170
Dragon Armour;
Enchanted Shield [5.0]
Sword of Might [20.0]
Dawnstone [25.0]

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
7 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 171
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
23 Archers: FCG, 260
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag, 444
24 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standard, 435
1 Great Eagle, 50

Models in Army: 102
Total Army Cost: 2400
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Post:
So, there is a tournament at the end of June which includes all the ETC rules (in short: 5 dice spell casting, 4 for death / shadow, lots of limitations) plus special characters are allowed.

I am still struggling on wether I should take my battle-proven cav list with dual phoenixes (which you can find here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=47153 ) or should I go with a decent Teclis list. Assuming I'll go with Teclis, here is what I'll bring:

Code: Select all

Teclis @ 450.0 Pts
Mage, Light, Dispel Scroll @ 110.0 Pts
Mage, Light, Forbidden Rod @ 120.0 Pts
Noble on Barded Steed, BSB, Star Lance, TOTS, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour @ 170.0 Pts
19 Archers, Standard; Musician @ 210.0 Pts
9 Silver Helms, FCG, Shields @ 237.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
28 White Lions, FCG, BotWD @ 444.0 Pts
1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts
1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts

Models in Army: 66
Total Army Cost: 2391.0
Now some justificiations:

Mages with Lore of Light and their synergy with Teclis
It's not like I'm investing 230 points for carrying a scroll. Lore of Light on mages makes Banishment a viable (and an actually a first go-to) choice for Teclis. Their items: Dispel Scroll for ultimate magic protection. Rod of Power seems like a logical consequence. The ability to add +2 power dice (cap at ETC) when I need it is good.

BSB with Star Lance opposed to 1+ rerollable save
That's a hard choice. Magic Boosting abilities include Wyssan Wildform (+3S / +3A) and Mindrazor. Any of those spells synergies better with 1+R save rather than starlance. However, having Star Lance allows me to have TOTS and more combat damage for the whole unit, especially without magic support. In any magic-heavy list having a unit that can do something without this support is priceless.

Dual Frost Phoenixes opposed to Frost + 4 RBT
Another hard question for this list. I consider those choices equal, some are better in one circumstance, some in other. With RBT I have option of taking Withering vs other armies, where Pit of Shades or Mindrazor is not that effective. Frost Phoenixes however comb up nicely with Regrowth and double scroll - This means that they are moreresistant vs Pit / Sun. It is worth noticing that with double Frost I commit to having Regrowth in Life, which may in some cases destabilize my roster, opposed to Throne of Vines.

Any comments and suggestions are highly appreciated. Since this is my first attempt at Teclis list, I am certain that list is not optimized and there is much room for improvement :)

cheers
Furion
Last edited by Furion on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Xarhain
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#2 Post by Xarhain »

I understand the justification for the extra backup wizards but I'm still having trouble with the cost of it myself.

Firstly you already have a super scroll with Teclis. A second scroll in a list is good, but it's not as important as the first scroll in a list. The rod of power can be handy, but as you say you'll only get a max of 2 dice from it, and you'll probably lose the wizard to it which already robs you of half the strength bonus to banishment. (unless BotWD is ruled to work against the hits). Also, like the scroll, Teclis already has a bonus PD item. Though admittedly you might use it for the miscast protection.

Either way, the main reason you're taking those mages is for the bonus to banishment which again I understand and it may be a great choice, but I'm not sure if it's a good use of points. You have all the game winning spells in the entire BRB to choose from, do you really need to spend a couple hundred points on a strength 6 magic missile?

It just seems more points efficient to me to have Teclis on his lonesome. The light wizards may be the right choice however. You might find that even with all the spells Teclis has available to him you need that S6 banishment, or you might find that you rarely cast it with all the mindrazor/comet/death leech etc casting you're doing and you'd rather use the points on sisters or chariots and eagles or something.

The rest of the list I generally agree with.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#3 Post by Furion »

Thank you for your comment, Xarhain. These are some good advice, thank you.
Banner of the Worlds Dragon indeed works vs Forbidden Rod, no extra ruling here is needed, as the text is clear.
Ineed I will think if extra mages for Banishment are really all that necessary. With vast choice of spells it might be better to channel those points elsewhere.

cheers
Furion
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Xarhain
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#4 Post by Xarhain »

My pleasure, I'll be following with interest. Hope you take the Teclis list to ETC!

What spell selection are you thinking vs various opponents?
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#5 Post by Jaith »

I think the coolest thing with Teclis is the options. I don't think you should commit his spells, but have multiple possibilities: I mean theoretically you could have a light coven for banishment, but if you are going to do that... get 1 or 2 more light mages. Just take em' naked and get Savage Beast for some silly fun.

But I don't think that this is a good direction to go in. If it were me, I would drop the mages for more bodies but I can see the argument for a lv1 Shadow Mage with a scroll (so you can teleport Teclis out of harm, and get the 2nd scroll).

I think that if you want to go the dual frost heart route, you are better off with a Life lv4. With Teclis, Throne of Vines seems wayyy too important to pass up: he is 450 points! So I am a fan of Frostheart, and 4 RBT's.

But maybe think about the possibilities: Would an extra noble in your SH bus really be that bad if you are making that Beasts spell that much more dangerous? How bad is an extra 19 points for Light Armor on your Archers if you have the option to cast Glittering Robes on them? Things like this.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#6 Post by Stormie »

I'm not 100% on current ETC rulings, but don't each two auto-dispel items count as 1 dispel dice each, and then Banner of the World Dragon must surely also count as 1 DD under ETC comp, so doesn't that forbid the combo? Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Also, use them last 9 points- an Ironcurse Icon on a Mage perhaps?
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#7 Post by daid13 »

Are you allowed special character in etc?
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#8 Post by Stormie »

Not normally, but in this case he can, as he states in the very first sentence of his posts!
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#9 Post by daid13 »

I need me some new glasses.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#10 Post by Furion »

Stormie wrote:I'm not 100% on current ETC rulings, but don't each two auto-dispel items count as 1 dispel dice each, and then Banner of the World Dragon must surely also count as 1 DD under ETC comp, so doesn't that forbid the combo? Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Also, use them last 9 points- an Ironcurse Icon on a Mage perhaps?
Forgot to mention, only Power Dice is limited in this tournament. You may have as many Dispel Dice / Dispel items as you want.
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Stormie
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#11 Post by Stormie »

Ah, nice :)
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#12 Post by Furion »

List update:

Code: Select all

Teclis: 450
Mage, L1, Light, Dispel Scroll: 110
Mage, L1, Light, Forbidden Rod: 120
Noble on Barded Steed, BSB, Star Lance, TOTS, Enchanted Shield: 170
18 Archers, Standard; Musician: 200
9 Silver Helms, Shields, FCG: 237
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap): 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap): 85
26 White Lions, FCG, BotWD 418
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240
3 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 3x70
5 Sisters of Avelorn 70

Models in Army: 76
Total Army Cost: 2395.0
Withering is back in the menu I guess.

Comments are warmly welcomed.

Cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#13 Post by Ether Dude »

The focus on banishment still confuses me. If you wanted a magic missile, surely you could take ring of fury on one of the mages. I understand that it is s6, but even so, that's not worth 230 points imo. In the ETC-style games I've played, net would have been a much more convincing option. If you save 110/120 points from one of the mages, what could you get instead? A pair of eagles might be nice. Either that or a bigger unit of helms.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#14 Post by Furion »

One battle behind me. Managed to win vs Daemons. Having said that, I'm not happy with my roster. Banishment is good and the synergy with magic was decent, but I doubt if its worth 230 points.

Here is my list which I will test at local tournament tomorrow:

Code: Select all

Teclis @ 450.0

Noble on Barded Steed @ 136.0 Pts
     Heavy Armour; Shield
     Dragonhelm [10.0]
     Dawnstone [25.0]
     Biting Blade [10.0]

Noble on Barded Steed @ 170.0 Pts
     Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
     Star Lance [30.0]
     The Other Trickster's Shard [15.0]
     Enchanted Shield [5.0]

14 Archers, Standard, Musician @ 170.0 Pts
10 Silver Helms FCG, Shields @ 260.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
28 White Lions, FCG, Banner of the World Drag @ 444.0 Pts
1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 4x70.0 Pts
1 Tiranoc Chariot @ 70.0 Pts

Models in Army: 77
Total Army Cost: 2397.0
Reasoning behind changes:
Wyssan Wildform has power similiar to Mindrazor when cast on 2 cavalry guys. Also, Teclis with Wildofrm has quite a punch.
2nd Scroll is a not needed luxury.
Forbidden Rod and Mage combo works nice, but I believe that a good magic phase can be done with exclusion of Banishment. Therefore assuming that Magic Phase can be as good, roster should work better overall if he has those points located elsewhere.
Another RBT instead of Sisters - RBT is more resiliant I expect sisters to die fast when playing vs armies where I do need this regeneration taken down.
Tiranoc Chariot - very needed in this kind of list. It effectively makes a big bubble when enemy skinks / fast cav other unit that you could, but would preffer to not to kill with Phoenix comes in.

Comments, as always, are warmly welcomed.

cheers
Furion
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Jaith
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#15 Post by Jaith »

Yeah that's how I would do it... but I would definitely have the Biting Blade Noble be the BSB so that you have the option to be more reckless with the Star Lance Noble.

The points on the Archers don't add up for me: is it 15 with St/mus or 14 with FC?

Maybe consider trading a RBT for another lone Tiranoc? This really depends what opponents you will be anticipating I think...

Good Luck with the tourney... today I guess!
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#16 Post by Furion »

14 vs TK
20 vs Beastmen
7 vs Ogres - with Teclis dying to my own Purple Sun :lol:

Finished 4/15. Not exactly happy about it, but it was an expierience gaining tournament and that is great.

Conclusions from tournament:

Teclis is not overpowered in any way. Not at all. Having only 1 caster in army who costs tons of points you have to go into safe bets with spells casting. If you fail a spell, thats 450 pts sitting around. The archamge costs 2/3 of Teclis and the amount of power dice they use is the same. Lets talk about some specific magic phases:

6 dice:
Teclis: Throne + Purple Sun / -D3T
Life Archmage: Throne + Dwellers / Toughness

7 dice:
Teclis: Comet + Purple Sun / -D3T
Life Archamge: Throne + Dwellers

8 Dice:
Teclis: Sun + -D3T
Life Archmage: Throne + Dwellers + Regeneration

Of course these are some typical combinations of the top of my head. It obviously may change on vs army basis. I've just presented this to give you a general idea: regardless of how many points you inwest in your magic phase the number of Power Dice is the same, and if cheaper character can make better use of it then it's generally better.

Not sure what changes I'll bring to the list.

comments are warmly welcomed

cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#17 Post by Axiem »

Interesting conclusions. I also had a tourney this last weekend and brought Teclis to the field for the first time; I found him to be a real bargain for what he does. 2250 points and first time fielding him but I found out quickly that throwing all my dice at big spells didn't exactly pay off and instead trickled small spells in was the way to go, maximizing his +5 to cast. Most importantly, this made my game against Skaven much easier as it helped ramp up my small investment in shooting elements into the dangerous levels.

Went 20-0 against Ogres, 20-0 Orcs&Goblins, 10-10 to Skaven, even after some horrible luck on my part in the last game. Would have won the tourney under normal circumstances even then but the TO had a weird system for breaking ties so I happily settled for 2nd.

In environments were SC are not comped, I see myself taking Teclis regularly. His spell flexibility alone is worth it IMO, and when you add in his scroll (which I was 3/3 for!), his staff and crown, I'll happily pay the extra points.

Instead of going for all the direct damage nukes, I went for Flesh to Stone, Timewarp, Flaming Sword, and Enchanted Blades. The combination of which meant my White Lions steamrolled through people's entire armies unopposed and often times won the game by themselves. I then used Teclis' staff to prevent any miscasts in crucial magic phases, instead of having to use dice to precast Throne.

Axiem
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#18 Post by Furion »

Final Draft of the list:

Code: Select all

Jerzy Brzozowski

1 Teclis @ 450.0 Pts

1 Mage @ 110.0 Pts
     Magic Level 1; Lore of Light
     Dispel Scroll [25.0]

1 Noble on Barded Steed @ 132.0 Pts
     Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Ithilmar Barding
     Dragonhelm [10.0]
     Dawnstone [25.0]

1 Noble on Barded Steed @ 170.0 Pts
     Dragon Armour; Battle Standard; Ithilmar Barding
     Star Lance [30.0]
     The Other Trickster's Shard [15.0]
     Enchanted Shield [5.0]

15 Archers, Standard, Musician @ 170.0 Pts
10 Silver Helms, Shields, FCG @ 260.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
26 White Lions, FCG, Banner of World Drag @ 418.0 Pts
1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 4x70.0 Pts

Models in Army: 72
Total Army Cost: 2400.0
Will see how it goes at the tourney. Knowing weakness of my own's list is also of value I think.

Comments are as always welcomed.

Cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#19 Post by Furion »

Finished 11th/88. Not exactly happy about it but can't be sad either. Teclis sucks hard :D
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#20 Post by Ferny »

Furion wrote:Finished 11th/88. Not exactly happy about it but can't be sad either. Teclis sucks hard :D
Hi Furion,

Any chance of a bit more of a breakdown - what armies did you face? What spells did you select and did you vary them for specific armies or did you have fixed 'go-to' spells throughout?

How did he suck hard? Did he just not make his points back compared to a LM/AM with book? Did you not have enough power dice to run him successfully (I can see this being an issue in some games)? Were you overpowered by enemy magic (unlikely I guess?)? Did they send flying/fast cav/IF snipes/some other assassins or to get rid of the big points investment?
Axiem wrote:I also had a tourney this last weekend and brought Teclis to the field for the first time...I went for Flesh to Stone, Timewarp, Flaming Sword, and Enchanted Blades
Axiem - did you use those spells every time or mix them up a bit depending on opponent? What about the other lores? Did you have any trouble with this list (winds of magic being cruel, teclis being squishy etc)? You say if he's not comped you'd use him regularly - how did you feel he played when compared to a straight up Lv4 or AM?
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#21 Post by Yipikayey »

My main problem with the list is the fact that Teclis isn't comp'ed (no extra DDs or PD for his magic items). And i don't get why you think banishment synergize best with teclis. If anything, there are a lot of combos like enfeeble / dwellers, enfeeble / Amyntok's net, Wind blast / Flaming cage. Etc. I do believe that the best thing of teclis is actually being able to get a lot of good spells which synergize with each other so you won't need an extra casters since he is also a scroll caddy.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#22 Post by Jimmy »

Too hard on yourself. I'd be wrapped with 11th out of 88.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#23 Post by Axiem »

Axiem - did you use those spells every time or mix them up a bit depending on opponent? What about the other lores? Did you have any trouble with this list (winds of magic being cruel, teclis being squishy etc)? You say if he's not comped you'd use him regularly - how did you feel he played when compared to a straight up Lv4 or AM?
Without derailing the thread too much, I'm finding Teclis very powerful in uncomped play; much less so in comped play. Having eight power-spells is just insanely good, especially combined with getting dice back with Purple Sun and no literally no army can withstand 4-5 power spells a turn. In uncomped play, skipping Throne of Vines is also valuable in favor of Flesh to Stone (or maybe dwellers).

When playing him ETC comped however, I'm not sure he's worth his points (I'd bring Arielle over Teclis here). The point difference from the normal Level 4 is too large and the extra phoenix / bolt throwers is better IMO; certainly more reliable.

Axiem
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#24 Post by Furion »

Thank you for your comments.
I'll try to wrap a battle report in a forseeable future.
About the spells - it was mostly the same - sun, comet, -d3T, trone, flame cage, banishment and savage beasts of horrors. Variations were negligible.

cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#25 Post by Yipikayey »

Looking forward to read them :D
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#26 Post by Eltherion »

Well done 11th out of 88 is a nice result.


A bit late but here is my take on the 4x RBT's.

What about 2 x Eagle Claws and 10 Sisters instead of 4 x RBT's.

Sisters can negate Regen then RBT's follow this up to kill Hellpits, etc...

If facing WE's negate their Magical Ward saves with Sisters shots, also useful vs. Ethereal spam VC's.

Also with Teclis the Enchanted blades on the Sisters making it a -3 to Armour saves vs. WoC or other heavily armored troops..

They also provide another chaff clearer/ Mage bunker.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#27 Post by Furion »

Back to toying with Teclis!

Some thoughts after few battles:
- investing more Than 450 pts in magic phase is a complete waste for HE. Even the 2nd mage with scroll is not that efficient, and who wouldn't want a 2nd scroll.
- taking the above into calculation, I've decided to construct a magic-proof list with 1 scroll.
- Banishment synergies are nice, but only when your main caster costs 200 points, not 450
- Big version of savage beasts of horrors costs too many power dice to cast
- Thats why I'll toy with an alternative of Wildform

The list I designed looks like that:
Teclis, High Loremaster @ 450.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 5
#Moon Staff of Lileath [0.0] (Ignore miscast OR add 1 PD to each spell. One Use Only)
#Sword of Teclis [0.0] (1A, Wounds on 2+, no AS)
#Scroll of Hoeth [0.0] (Dispell Scroll; we both roll a d6, if I roll more the spell is destroyed. One Use Only)
#War Crown of Saphery [0.0] (Magic Level 5)

Noble @ 159.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Charmed Shield [5.0]
Obsidian Lodestone [45.0]

30 Archers: Standard, Musician @ 320.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician @ 125.0 Pts
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 4x70.0 Pts
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag @ 444.0 Pts
25 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standard @ 450.0 Pts

Models in Army: 108
Total Army Cost: 2398.0
There are still a few open questions, like why not Reaver Bow instead of Magic Resistance, I have BotWD against Death Magic afterall. Well, assuming I plan on getting Withering, losing every archers will hurt much more.
Also, why only a single block of archers - for Wyssan and Mindrazor, as well as all the other buffs: flaming sword and what not, the big block is better in that regard.

Now the most controversial fact: no eagles! :D Thats right. The reason is that with so many points invested in combat capability I actually want to fight, and taking into account that this list is more of a defense than offense and should technically win all ranged duels, I don't need to have that many fast units to position myself well. With only 8 drops (which come handy with +1) my position will be most likely known before battle and there is very little room for fast manouvers.

Now even more controversial: no frostie! :D Thats not a missclick either, 1 frosty without any support from other combat blocks nor magic is most likely not gonna help me defending against "stuff". Plus, it makes me more susceptible against cannons and combines badly with Teclis (read: lack of lore of life)

I eagerly await your comments! Cheers!
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#28 Post by Malhandir's Feed »

I'm not super experienced with Teclis lists yet, but there are a couple things I question. First is, you are going to want to edit out the points costs on the magic items on the Noble. I think its against GW copyright or something... Second, I really can't see why you wouldn't want eagles. They really help with getting your combats in the right places and at the wrong time. Third, Articuno is far too good with the blocks of combat troops not to include it. The lack of lore of Life doesn't help, but hey, that cannon isn't targeting Teclis if its targeting the Frostie!
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#29 Post by John Rainbow »

I like the idea and agree about the Phoenix in your list. What spells were you planning on taking for Teclis?
Furion
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:30 am

Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#30 Post by Furion »

Played 2 games so far:

vs Lizzie: Fireball, Banishment, Wildform, Searing Doom, Withering, Spirit Leech, Flesh of Stone, Chain Lighting
vs Empire: Fireball, Net of Amynotk, Searing Doom, Hunting Spear, Spirit Leech, Throne of Vines, Comet of Cassandora

This roster works so much better than the last ETC I played with. Will think about switching BSB to Lothern Sea Helm, maybe it will give more tactical options?
Teclis, High Loremaster, 450
General; Magic Level 5
#Moon Staff of Lileath [0.0] (Ignore miscast OR add 1 PD to each spell. One Use Only)
#Sword of Teclis [0.0] (1A, Wounds on 2+, no AS)
#Scroll of Hoeth [0.0] (Dispell Scroll; we both roll a d6, if I roll more the spell is destroyed. One Use Only)
#War Crown of Saphery [0.0] (Magic Level 5)

1 Lothern Sea Helm, 170
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Battle Standard
Obsidian Lodestone [45.0] (MR3)

28 Archers: FCG, 310
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 125
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 4x70
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag, 444
25 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standard, 450

Models in Army: 105
Total Army Cost: 2399.0
and family picture!

Image


cheers
Furion
[url=http://www.youtube.com/followfurion][b]FollowFurion[/b] on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)[/url]
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