The Defense [ETC]

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Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#61 Post by Nagashias »

demoneclipse wrote:
Nagashias wrote:How do you deal with etheral units?
You can use sisters, missile spells or a good Champion with magic weapon, where Caradryan is always a good option. If you are specially worried about those I would recommend swapping Teclis for Alarielle as she gives magical attacks to the unit.
Sorry, I was asking Furion, as I am playing in an ETC restricted environment as well, and plans to use his army list as I find it very intriguing. :)
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#62 Post by Furion »

Yet another win for The Defense!
Image

84 players.

Played versus:
Dwarfs, 20
Vampire Counts, 20
Empire, 15
Vampire Counts, 20
Lizardmen, 10
Nagashias wrote:How do you deal with etheral units?
It's hard, but doable. It's all about unit position really.
Keep BSB alive at all times.
Both Ellyrian Reavers and Silver Helms deployed in a line. Keep them on the flanks and bsb in the middle. This way you funnel your opponent into the middle with those hexwraiths.
Don't use Ellyrian Reavers as sacrificial lambs to delay crypt horrors / ghouls - you actually do want to fight them.

Now, the execution is as follows: if given a possibility of a flank charge, do it. This way you are guaranteed to have them kept in place for 1 turn. If applicable, put BSB so he can charge them. If not, place comet on top of them.

In the meantime, cast magic missles at them, and that's pretty much it.

cheers
Furion
[url=http://www.youtube.com/followfurion][b]FollowFurion[/b] on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)[/url]
Senor
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#63 Post by Senor »

The dragon of Krakow.

Good name for the tournament, with such a legend story for the old King city.

But your not from Poland right?
Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#64 Post by Nagashias »

Furion -> What do you think of changing Razor Banner to Flaming, and adding 6 sisters (removing 2 White lions and 1 phoenix I believe will do it).

Will give alot of fire versus regeneration.
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#65 Post by Furion »

Senor wrote:The dragon of Krakow.

Good name for the tournament, with such a legend story for the old King city.

But your not from Poland right?
I am. The tournament was indeed held in Krakow (Cracow)
Nagashias wrote:Furion -> What do you think of changing Razor Banner to Flaming, and adding 6 sisters (removing 2 White lions and 1 phoenix I believe will do it).

Will give alot of fire versus regeneration.
Glorious idea if tailoring list vs OnG. Not viable for a swiss tournament though.

cheers
FUrion
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Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#66 Post by Nagashias »

How do you deal with Warriors of Chaos? In especially their mass 2+ armour 3 or 4+ Ward save characters going solo, or their mass chariots? (ie. 2-3 core and 2-3 gorbeast chariots).
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#67 Post by Furion »

Nagashias wrote:How do you deal with Warriors of Chaos? In especially their mass 2+ armour 3 or 4+ Ward save characters going solo, or their mass chariots? (ie. 2-3 core and 2-3 gorbeast chariots).
Gorbeast chariots will either mean no hellcannon or no chimera, so I can live with that.

It is a hard match-up indeed. However, there is no reason to despair. Just remember to bring your units to the front. If given opportunity to charge a chariot with BSB, then do it. Remember to focus fire on a single chariot. Keep your champions on corner of the units - if getting multi charged then the cornering unit will only kill 1 model.

cheers
Furion
[url=http://www.youtube.com/followfurion][b]FollowFurion[/b] on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)[/url]
Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#68 Post by Nagashias »

I played your list in 3 games in a tournament setting.

Well, my BSB died twice. One of the times it was from 14 attacks from Night Goblins (-_-). My lord also blew himself up, twice. Despite never casting with more than 4 power dice, and having on average about 6 power dice per round.

I made a tactical error in game 1, that wouldve given me a clean slate. (between 16-18 to 8-6). The other two games was a loss (5-15) and win (15-5). Roughly. First game was due to my tactical blunder a 10-10.

All in all, I was quite disappointed by the list. However, I blame that mainly on my poor dice rolling. I was Lucky if I got even a single spell through, and book didnt help at all. (the best I rolled was a reroll from 1 to 2. The other rerolls it either got worse (from 2 to 1 for example) or rolled the same).

I think the list has quite a potential. However, at least the meta where I play, warrants a flaming banner rather than razor banner. Should also give another eagle in the army.
pk-ng
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#69 Post by pk-ng »

Nagashias wrote:All in all, I was quite disappointed by the list. However, I blame that mainly on my poor dice rolling.
I think you shiould review your tactics before blaming it on dice and the list. As you've stated different meta requires different list - it's not always easy to take a net list and use it in your local meta.
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Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#70 Post by Nagashias »

pk-ng wrote:
Nagashias wrote:All in all, I was quite disappointed by the list. However, I blame that mainly on my poor dice rolling.
I think you shiould review your tactics before blaming it on dice and the list. As you've stated different meta requires different list - it's not always easy to take a net list and use it in your local meta.
Of course, I know that ;) I also stated that game 1 was clearly due to a tactical error on my behalf. However, the following I would like to blame on the dice:

I never used more than 4 dice. I get around 8-10 spells through with BoH in 3 games. I miscast three times, killing my archmage two of the times. One of the times he died, was in the critical phase where I needed buffs to fight the remainder of a witch elf deathstar. I had the odds strongly in my favor if I just got one buff/hex through, yet first spell with 3 dice = BOOOM. Dead.
My bsb died, once to 14 night goblin attacks (on average it requires 400 night goblin attacks to kill him...). Also once to 10 S4 attacks. In both games I used him to hold up a very important and game winning/losing unit/combat/etc. Both times I lost around 600-1000 points due to him dying so easily.
My RBT: I spent 2 turns shooting Vargheists (hit on 4+). I made 4 or 5 wounds. (average would be 12). Also 2 turns shooting a terrorgheist with multishot (4+ too), I managed to do 1 wound on it... (average 3,33)
Stormie
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#71 Post by Stormie »

Nagashias wrote:I was Lucky if I got even a single spell through, and book didnt help at all. (the best I rolled was a reroll from 1 to 2. The other rerolls it either got worse (from 2 to 1 for example) or rolled the same).
This sounds really short-sighted of you, and may help demonstrate why your perception of the games is a bit skewed. Book of Hoeth is not used only when you re-roll a dice. It is used - passively - every time you make the decision to use a different number of dice to cast a spell. If you're casting/dispelling a spell that needs a 6 on 2 dice, you would be sensible to roll 3 dice to cast the spell; with the Book of Hoeth, you'd probably only use 2 dice to cast the spell. So you save one magic dice, but because you don't physically put aside an extra dice, nothing screams out to you "Book of Hoeth just saved me a dice!".

Logically this must be true as well, because you talk about being conservative with the casting dice you use, never going above 4 or rolling more dice than you needed. Without Book of Hoeth, you would be using more dice to cast your spells, therefore the Book was helping.

Also your calculations seem quite off. Did it not set alarm bells off in your head claiming that 400 gobbo attacks required to kill a Noble with a 3+ armour save? To do a wound, each gobbo has a 1/3 chance of hitting, 1/2 chance of wounding, 1/3 chance of getting past your armour save and 5/6 chance of besting your ward. That makes 0.046 chance, which means 22 attacks from a goblin is all it takes to wound your BSB. 14 getting past is a teeny bit lucky but should not bother you, except to ask yourself why the heck was your BSB taking so many attacks in the first place? 10 S4 attacks should also be enough to kill your BSB. Or am I missing something and he was actually a 1+ re-rollable dude on a horse? The lesson, anyway, is that if you need your BSB alive to save you 1000 VPs, don't put him in a place where he has a 30%+ chance of dying.

Shooting a Terrorgheist with multi-shot is also a bad idea, because while you may get a wound or two through every turn, the VC player is also very likely to get at least one Vampire spell off each turn, negating the damage you do quite easily. You’d be far better off going for single shots, because while it’s unlikely, you’re more likely to do enough damage outright to kill a Terrorgheist in one turn.

I still think you were very unlucky, two Dimensional Cascades in one tournament is a horrible thing to have to endure, but I don’t think you can entirely blame the dice. Nor should you judge a list on one tournament’s performance either :)
Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#72 Post by Nagashias »

Stormie wrote:
Nagashias wrote:I was Lucky if I got even a single spell through, and book didnt help at all. (the best I rolled was a reroll from 1 to 2. The other rerolls it either got worse (from 2 to 1 for example) or rolled the same).
This sounds really short-sighted of you, and may help demonstrate why your perception of the games is a bit skewed. Book of Hoeth is not used only when you re-roll a dice. It is used - passively - every time you make the decision to use a different number of dice to cast a spell. If you're casting/dispelling a spell that needs a 6 on 2 dice, you would be sensible to roll 3 dice to cast the spell; with the Book of Hoeth, you'd probably only use 2 dice to cast the spell. So you save one magic dice, but because you don't physically put aside an extra dice, nothing screams out to you "Book of Hoeth just saved me a dice!".
I failed most of these 6+ with 2 dice spells....
Logically this must be true as well, because you talk about being conservative with the casting dice you use, never going above 4 or rolling more dice than you needed. Without Book of Hoeth, you would be using more dice to cast your spells, therefore the Book was helping.
On average (many games) yes. In my games, it didn't help. I also one diced spells 7 or 8 times in the 3 games. 4 times with the item, 4 times with the mage. I failed to cast the spell with archmage twice, and 2 times with the item as well.

Also your calculations seem quite off. Did it not set alarm bells off in your head claiming that 400 gobbo attacks required to kill a Noble with a 3+ armour save? To do a wound, each gobbo has a 1/3 chance of hitting, 1/2 chance of wounding, 1/3 chance of getting past your armour save and 5/6 chance of besting your ward. That makes 0.046 chance, which means 22 attacks from a goblin is all it takes to wound your BSB. 14 getting past is a teeny bit lucky but should not bother you, except to ask yourself why the heck was your BSB taking so many attacks in the first place? 10 S4 attacks should also be enough to kill your BSB. Or am I missing something and he was actually a 1+ re-rollable dude on a horse? The lesson, anyway, is that if you need your BSB alive to save you 1000 VPs, don't put him in a place where he has a 30%+ chance of dying.
1+ rerollable armour save. So 1 wound requires 36 wounds to get past armour save (6*6), only every other hit wounds (*2), and only every third attack hits (*3), that's 216 attacks from goblins - to make 1 wound. Not even accounting for the 6+ Ward save! That's like saying that 30 phoenix guard losing to 25 clanrat slaves, is the High Elf players fault for placing them in a situation where they are prone to losing. If you read Furions comments about the BSB, he is actually more daring with the BSB than I am. Him taking 2 wounds from 14 attaks is something around 2% chance to happen.... Having 98% chance to table my opponents deathstar but failing due to that, I don't really consider a flaw in strategy.

Shooting a Terrorgheist with multi-shot is also a bad idea, because while you may get a wound or two through every turn, the VC player is also very likely to get at least one Vampire spell off each turn, negating the damage you do quite easily. You’d be far better off going for single shots, because while it’s unlikely, you’re more likely to do enough damage outright to kill a Terrorgheist in one turn.
You might be right. However, I assumed that 4x0,41 average wounds + Uranos Thunderbolt would do at least some damage. But as stated earlier, spells was not quite my thing.

I still think you were very unlucky, two Dimensional Cascades in one tournament is a horrible thing to have to endure, but I don’t think you can entirely blame the dice. Nor should you judge a list on one tournament’s performance either :)
I am merely providing feedback for Furion to think about. For example, I will remove the razor banner and add flaming instead, but might just be my local meta that varies from Furions. Razor banner didn't do enough for me to warrant it, so I'll drop the razor, add flaming, remove a phoenix guard and add an Eagle :)

Clearly, Furion is a far superior player to me, so there's definitely some tricks with the army I did not utilize. :)
Considering how unlucky I was (and it was hard not to whine about it :D), and seeing I still ended up averagely Draw every game, it has alot of potential with more normal rolling. Add in alot of experience with the army as well, and it can be really potent I think.
Stormie
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#73 Post by Stormie »

Oh, sorry, that was my mistake with the BSB! I looked at the previous page and scrolled up until I found what I thought was his army list, but didn't scroll up to the name (damn other people posting their variant army lists in the topic! But that's just my own stupidity!). Yeah losing that 1+ re-rollable save BSB like that twice sounds like a nightmare, bad luck.

I still think it sounds like you've mismanaged your magic phases. If you really were trying to cast a spell needing a 6 on 2 dice then that'd be a really insensible thing to do on 2 dice without the Book. With same level of bad luck you'd have been wasting 3 dice without the Book ;)
cptunderpants
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#74 Post by cptunderpants »

Nagashias wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
Nagashias wrote: My bsb died, once to 14 night goblin attacks (on average it requires 400 night goblin attacks to kill him...). Also once to 10 S4 attacks. In both games I used him to hold up a very important and game winning/losing unit/combat/etc. Both times I lost around 600-1000 points due to him dying so easily.
Did you charge him out on his own? That's not the best idea in the world, he's still an elf after all. Even with +1 rerollable he'll get killed when he's running about on his own (even if yes, in the above examples you were unlucky). If you're in a position were you have to charge him out of the Silverhelms, then they've been positioned badly. Movement is absolutely the most important part of warhammer and while sometimes it's a bad overrun or charge roll, most of the time it's human error that leads to defeat. This is just something that comes from practice though, so have fun playing those games and getting it down!
Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#75 Post by Nagashias »

cptunderpants wrote:
Did you charge him out on his own? That's not the best idea in the world, he's still an elf after all. Even with +1 rerollable he'll get killed when he's running about on his own (even if yes, in the above examples you were unlucky). If you're in a position were you have to charge him out of the Silverhelms, then they've been positioned badly. Movement is absolutely the most important part of warhammer and while sometimes it's a bad overrun or charge roll, most of the time it's human error that leads to defeat. This is just something that comes from practice though, so have fun playing those games and getting it down!
Combined charge. His Silver Helms died to 15 S5 attacks (2½x as many kills as average, due to me not being able to roll 3+). However, that is fine. Thing was, if he had held a turn more and not died to Night Goblins, I wouldve had Archers with ranks in combat with the Night Goblins rear, and winning massively. Also having more ranks than the enemys deathstar. Seeing as I already won combat a Little, having those ranks would mean he was not stubborn, and I got alot of extra CR.
Alas, that was not to be. Goblins killed BSB. -_-
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#76 Post by Furion »

The road to SCGT begins.

For those who don't know, quick facts:
SCGT is the biggest solo tournament in the world, with 270 players, held in Portsmouth, England, UK
SCGT comp pack can be seen here: http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGT/SCGT2014RulePack.pdf (scroll to page 5)
It has a very interesting, mild comp pack which impacts the game at a very specific angle. Therefore before evaluating the roster I'd like you to read the comp pack.

The roster that I plan to bring is as follows:
Jerzy "Furion" Brzozowski - The Gamblers - High Elves

Lord - Teclis, General, 450
Flaming Sword, Wyssan's Wildform, Searing Doom, Banishment,
Dwellers Below, Comet of Casandora, Okkam's Mindrazor, Soulblight
450

Hero - Noble, 70
Battle Standard 25, Banner of the World Dragon 50, Great Weapon 4
149

Hero - Mage, Light, 85
Forbidden Rod 35, Warrior Bane 5
125

Core - 28 Archers, 280
Full Command Group 30
310

Core - 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80
Bow (swap) 5
85

Core - 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80
Bow (swap) 5
85

Core - 5 Silver Helms, 105
Shields 10, Musician 10
125

Special - 23 Phoenix Guard, 345
Full Command Group 30, Razor Standard 45
420

Special - 27 White Lions, 351
Musician 10, Champion 10
371

Rare - 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
70

Rare - 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
70

Rare - 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
70

Rare - 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
70

Total Lord - 450
Total Hero - 326
Total Core - 605
Total Special - 791
Total Rare - 280
Army Total - 2400

Power Pool Choices 4
Soft Pool Choices 0
Comp Score 5-4 = 1
Now, some goals I had in mind when constructing this roster:
1. I was aiming for a comp score of at least 1. I believe that the boosts which are at hand for having a comp score of 1 instead of 0 are substantial.
2. Since I can add d6 power dice, then why not do it twice.
3. Banishment in that meta is, in my opinion, a necessity for 3 reasons:
  • Daemons are pretty much uncomped
  • I have hard time vs DE, warlocks specifically
  • I have hard time vs Frost Phoenixes, and S5 Banishment presents a stable 2 wounds
4. The other spell selection comes from picking Banishment. I've decided to not go with Purple Sun since the comp pack doesn't require me to go and win big and Purple Sun, while obviously strong, has some uncertainty in it. Also, Soulblight combines better with massed shooting that I have. Also - Also since I've decided to go for Banishment and Dwellers, I lack close combat boosts, so yet another argument for taking soulblight.
5. True Line of Sight means I won't be able to hide my Frosty behind hills. Hence I've decided to once again not take it.
6. I expect Lore of Death to be the most common lore. Once again that's why there is no frosty, also I've decided to field BotWD on BSB. This additionally allowed me to bring me to 1 point in comp score.

So, this is my roster and reasoning behind it. I have a question for tournament players from the UK, can I ask you this:
1. Is Death the most popular Lore in your meta?
2. Is Life popular or non existent?
3. What are the most popular armies? DoCh / VC / WoCh?
4. What do you expect to face when coming to a tourney in the UK? Most common list of most typical foe?

Cheers
Furion
[url=http://www.youtube.com/followfurion][b]FollowFurion[/b] on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)[/url]
pk-ng
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#77 Post by pk-ng »

Furion I think you got the comp score wrong?
Power Choice
1 - Banner of the World Dragon
1 - 20+ White Lions
1 - Bolt Thrower
2 - 2 units of Reavers

5-5 = 0
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Nicene
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#78 Post by Nicene »

pk-ng wrote:2 - 2 units of Reavers
The reavers don't count as a power choice unless you take at least 4 units (is my interpretation).

0 units: -0
1 unit: -0
2 units: -0
3 units: -0
4 units: -2
5 units: -4
6 units: -6
etc. . .

Interesting comp and I think you're right that 1 is much better than 0 in this case, Furion! Good luck and have fun. I hope you can write a battle report or two from the event!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

[quote="Nyeave"]Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D[/quote]
pk-ng
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#79 Post by pk-ng »

Nicene wrote:
pk-ng wrote:2 - 2 units of Reavers
The reavers don't count as a power choice unless you take at least 4 units (is my interpretation).

0 units: -0
1 unit: -0
2 units: -0
3 units: -0
4 units: -2
5 units: -4
6 units: -6
etc. . .

Interesting comp and I think you're right that 1 is much better than 0 in this case, Furion! Good luck and have fun. I hope you can write a battle report or two from the event!
Don't think so
Where (2nd count as 2) this means the first time will cost 1 the second will cost 2 - so 3 in total if two units are selected
HE - Reavers after the 3rd count as 2
1 unit = 1
2 unit = 2
3 unit = 3
4 unit = 5
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2015 - High Elves & Top HE

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Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#80 Post by Furion »

@pk-ng

Look at DE comp:

- Dark Riders after the 3rd count as 2 (so first 3 cost no comp points)
- Doom fire Warlocks (2nd unit counts as 2)

So taking 2 units of each means 0 and -3.

So yeah, I guess first 2 units of reavers are free to take.

Also, Teclis counts as 1 power choice due to him having Lore of Death. So the score is correct, I believe.

cheers
Furion
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Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#81 Post by Furion »

Just played a game against Warriors of Chaos comped at 0. Had +2 for deployment style, +2 for side, +3 for first turn but I lost all rolls :D nevertheless, the game was good and my playing was terrible - obviously I need more practice in playing in SCGT meta. The gameplay is significantly different from ETC, which is a good thing for me. Pretty refreshing.

Also, I am surprised by how well the comp pack is actually written.

cheers
Furion
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Dragon fire
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#82 Post by Dragon fire »

Hi Furion
Have you thought about taking harmonic convergence instead of comet? I think there is a great synergy with RBT's and to some extent also with archers. Reroll's of 1's to hit is very nice especially in short range. And for the to wound part it will make flank shots on heavy cav so devastating.
Secondly I've thought about your choice in lore of death. I think that one of the three character killer spells is so nice. This also makes your opponent think twice about taking their characters into 24" or 12" of Teclis.

I like the way the comp work's it seems like a quite simple and yet very balancing way of creating comp. The fact that soft choices more or less allows for an additional power choice is a very nice way of creating new and interesting lists.

Lastly your overall list seems quite strong. One think does puzzle me; the magic weapon on the light mage. Unless you can make him stick in the 2'nd rank, he is not very likely to last more than one round of combat. And with only one attack I'm not sure he will do enough damage.
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#83 Post by Furion »

Dragon fire wrote:Hi Furion
Have you thought about taking harmonic convergence instead of comet?
I was thinking about Iceshard Blizzard instead. Sure, I guess Harmonic Convergence is not off the table, but what I focus on when making my spell selection is this:
- Scoring system. you need only 100 VP's more than your opponent in order to win. This, in my opinion, implies that many of the roster will be deathstar - clumped things. This is when comet comes in handy to get those 100 points advantage.
- For shooting boost I have soulblight, which in terms of damage does the same amount as harmonic convergence, but can be cast cheaper (2 dice instead of 3)
- if you can choose a single spell from comet / convergence, then I would go for comet. The reason for that is that it restricts movement more than convergence, and this is something very important to consider.
Dragon fire wrote:Secondly I've thought about your choice in lore of death. I think that one of the three character killer spells is so nice. This also makes your opponent think twice about taking their characters into 24" or 12" of Teclis.
Well, they can't be cast into combat, soulblight allows for some range benefits too. Also, the characters that I am afraid of (that is: DP, WoCh hero, Lizzie Hero) all have at least Strength 5 and in most cases some kind of ward save, so its not super effective.
Dragon fire wrote:Lastly your overall list seems quite strong. One think does puzzle me; the magic weapon on the light mage. Unless you can make him stick in the 2'nd rank, he is not very likely to last more than one round of combat. And with only one attack I'm not sure he will do enough damage.
It's all about hexwraith precaution. I assume that the only scenario of this mage using this weapon is when he is in the same unit as BSB and Teclis and they are in combat with hexwraiths. This will allow me to clear them just a wee bit faster, which - considering I had 5 points free - is worth the trade. If I was lacking points in my roster for some reason, then I guess this magic weapon would be the first thing to drop.

Thank you very much for your comment.

cheers
Furion
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Dragon fire
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#84 Post by Dragon fire »

Furion wrote:I was thinking about Iceshard Blizzard instead. Sure, I guess Harmonic Convergence is not off the table, but what I focus on when making my spell selection is this:
- Scoring system. you need only 100 VP's more than your opponent in order to win. This, in my opinion, implies that many of the roster will be deathstar - clumped things. This is when comet comes in handy to get those 100 points advantage.
- For shooting boost I have soulblight, which in terms of damage does the same amount as harmonic convergence, but can be cast cheaper (2 dice instead of 3)
- if you can choose a single spell from comet / convergence, then I would go for comet. The reason for that is that it restricts movement more than convergence, and this is something very important to consider.
Furion
I think the greatest problem with RBT's is the to hit rolls. This can to a very large extent be helped by using Harmonic. for example 4 RBT single shot will normally hit 2,66 times in short range (appr 15% damage increase). With harmonic this increases to 3,1 hits (appr. 15% damage increase). The effect on the to wound roll will almost be the same whether you use harmonic or soulblight. Versus large cav busses units harmonic means that once you've hit you are almost guarantied to kill 3 knight in a single bolt.
In CC I agree that soulblight is much better.
In regards to restricting movement from comet, I can follow your thought. Restricting something like mass chaos chariot spawn is huge. So no doubt comet i a great spell and I can understand why you prioritize it.

In regards to the magic weapon. Would you gain more by giving it to the PG champ? You are going to miss out 1 S in normal combat but he has 2A, better WS and I compared to the mage so he will have an actual possibility to make a wound?
Gaz Taylor
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#85 Post by Gaz Taylor »

Been looking at this thread after seeing your YouTube videos and quite like the idea behind this list (and may steal ideas for my next army! :mrgreen: ). Why Teclis though over the Everqueen? Is it mainly for the flexibility in spells? Also how come you have no protection on the BSB or is it mainly down to BOTWD stopping spells and anything which gets close will already be depleted/under strength?
Furion wrote:So, this is my roster and reasoning behind it. I have a question for tournament players from the UK, can I ask you this:
1. Is Death the most popular Lore in your meta?
Yes it is very popular. However it is so popular that most people expect to face it and factor it into lists or people are getting bored using it and switching to other lores.
2. Is Life popular or non existent?
Depends on the player and list they are using but it's not massively popular. May make a reappearance thanks to one of the recent Bad Dice Daily episodes.
3. What are the most popular armies? DoCh / VC / WoCh?
At the minute, Daemons, Warriors, High/Dark Elves, and Empire but expect Dwarfs to be popular due to new book. Also Ogres are making a reappearance.
4. What do you expect to face when coming to a tourney in the UK? Most common list of most typical foe?
Honest Answer? It could be anything depending on the event and who is playing in it. SCGT will attract a lot of the UK regulars so expect hard lists. You will see some net lists, some random lists but it depends on how much attention people are paying to the comp. Personally I would try and think about what you can do when facing lots of armour or fast things rather than a specific race/list because there will be something which may throw you.
stuffem, tankem, ammeram
Raffazza
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#86 Post by Raffazza »

Furion wrote: So, this is my roster and reasoning behind it. I have a question for tournament players from the UK, can I ask you this:
1. Is Death the most popular Lore in your meta?
2. Is Life popular or non existent?
3. What are the most popular armies? DoCh / VC / WoCh?
4. What do you expect to face when coming to a tourney in the UK? Most common list of most typical foe?

Cheers
Furion
Hiya Furion,

Thanks for the continously high quality output – here, on youtube and in the never ending ETC discussions. Keep it up :)

To answer the questions as best I can:

1 – Historicaly by far the most common lore (well, Tzeentch with DoC is up there too). Seen as a hard counter to Nurgle DoC, O&G DeathStar and Ogre armies (all of which are common), one of the few ways to hurt a WoC DP (even if not too reliable) and increasingly DE characters, and will be an answer to Dwarfs. Important to note that there is normally some comp on magic, so at SCGT where there is no cap you will see more fo the lores that provide insta-kill options. But historcially yes, the most common lore is Death.

2- Life magic is very rare (outside of the occassional Brett or WE army). That being said – the point above remains, with no comp on magic, you may well see a lot more than usual. General perception that you need two wizards on it to get the most out of it is widely held. Expect to see much more than the “UK Norm” at this event.

3- Most popular armies are probably: DoC, WoC, DE, HE. Seeing a slight uptake in Ogres these days too, and there are always a decent number of Empire players. VC tend to be relatively rare due to endemic underperformance on the UK scene. Still be a few out there (especially at SCGT, given numbers).

4- Important to note that, due to size, the “meta” of SCGT is rather screwed up – whilst the meta at most events is easier to define, the sheer numbers throwing curveballs at SCGT make guessing difficult.
Overall in the UK though, you would expect to find the following:
- Most armies are defensive in nature, often with one hard hitting combat block – Shooting HEs with big WL unit being the norm here
- WoC are probably what you would expect, mixture of monster mash and character hand grenades.
- Expect Trolls. Lots of Trolls
- Expect Steam Tanks. All the Tanks.
- MSU is the current hotness, both Daemonic, Dark Elf and increasingly VC varieties.
- In short, it’s the UK meta is pretty staid at present

SCGT tends to be unusual though, through sheer weight of numbers, and the WLD system this year makes it even more so.
Lord Anathir
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#87 Post by Lord Anathir »

I don't quite understand why vc aren't more popular. Most armies they can trump with ease and have very few straight up bad match-ups. There is a vc player here (malta) that wins nearly every tourney he enters.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Raffazza
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#88 Post by Raffazza »

Lord Anathir wrote:I don't quite understand why vc aren't more popular. Most armies they can trump with ease and have very few straight up bad match-ups. There is a vc player here (malta) that wins nearly every tourney he enters.
As someone who used to run nothing by VC before my switch to lizards – several reasons.
Firstly, there is the risk factor – over a 6 game event, losing one game badly because someone killed your general makes it pretty risky.
Secondly, comp hit VC early on, so they never got to do crazy things.
Finally, familiarity breeds contempt. A lot of the top players in the UK are used to/have at some point used them, and when you have used VC, VC are less scary :)


Interesting to hear about Malta – in the UK the new VC book has never finished in the top 3 at a large (60+ player) two day event
Nagashias
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#89 Post by Nagashias »

What is the reasoning behind not changing:

Lvl 2 beast mage
Eagle
2 White lions
Book (take scroll on AM instead)

and add a Frost Phoenix?

Frost phoenix adds SO much versus some armies. It roflstomps Saurus Warriors, Chaos Warriors and other tough nuts, as well as just are hard as hell to bring down.
Theres already Silver Helms which provide a neat target, with Frost Phoenix, we add another target, so at least one should survive.

Also, it presents 4 tough targets:
Phoenix Guard
White Lions
Silver Helms
Frost Phoenix.

That's a LOT!

//A newbie :D
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John Rainbow
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#90 Post by John Rainbow »

Nagashias wrote: ...and add a Frost Phoenix?

Frost phoenix adds SO much versus some armies. It roflstomps Saurus Warriors, Chaos Warriors and other tough nuts, as well as just are hard as hell to bring down.
Theres already Silver Helms which provide a neat target, with Frost Phoenix, we add another target, so at least one should survive...
In my experience a single Frost Phoenix is not usually all that good in an all-comers list. It is also subject to some restrictions in ETC IIRC. More importantly though I have found that the frost bird only really helps in matchups you are already highly likely to win anyway. It doesn't really give you any help in those matchups you are likely to find problematic. For instance, against Ogres it is largely useless and the same can be said of some of the DE builds due to the high number of poisoned attacks they can throw out. These are two of the toughest matchups for HE in my mind and in both the (single) Frosty really isn't a great choice. Couple this with the fact that a single monster is very easy for a lot of armies to deal with when there are no other threats of a similar nature and I think it becomes a better option not to take the bird.
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