Mals Blog- US Masters
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
Well lets consider adding in another phoenix and how that would alter the list:
I could drop the Level 2 and both Unit of Sisters netting me 20 points and a Frost Phoenix:
What that adds: Redundancy. hopefully both phoenixes make it to combat or help out with target saturation.
What I lose: Ability to remove Regen in the shooting phase. Pretty big deal to combat VC, Skaven, Dark Elves, Ogres etc. I also lose the second caster which means I won't ever have a magic phase aside from hurling 6 dice at spells.
I think at this time the 2xlvl 2s and the 2x Sisters is the best option. It adds more to the list than a third monster.
I could drop the Level 2 and both Unit of Sisters netting me 20 points and a Frost Phoenix:
What that adds: Redundancy. hopefully both phoenixes make it to combat or help out with target saturation.
What I lose: Ability to remove Regen in the shooting phase. Pretty big deal to combat VC, Skaven, Dark Elves, Ogres etc. I also lose the second caster which means I won't ever have a magic phase aside from hurling 6 dice at spells.
I think at this time the 2xlvl 2s and the 2x Sisters is the best option. It adds more to the list than a third monster.
Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
What about dropping one of the mages and trying to squeeze room for a dragon mage? Keeps the second caster, adds another monster and a spell which goes well with archer core (and adds magical/flaming arrows). I'd still consider the flame spyre, since as you said his wake of fire is flaming/magical for vamps.
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
Seeing as the Dragon Mage costs ~ 400 points when properly equipped I would have to drop:
Both Sisters - 140
Lvl 2 w. Scroll (add to D. Mage I guess) - 145
And start dipping into the white lions which is removing my only true combat block.
Both Sisters - 140
Lvl 2 w. Scroll (add to D. Mage I guess) - 145
And start dipping into the white lions which is removing my only true combat block.
Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
Its an issue i keep running into, do you go all monster, with decent magic support at the cost of a sizable elite unit, or try to run balanced and risk losing your only valuable monster/s early due to lack of target saturation.
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
jamierk wrote:Its an issue i keep running into, do you go all monster, with decent magic support at the cost of a sizable elite unit, or try to run balanced and risk losing your only valuable monster/s early due to lack of target saturation.
I guess my thoughts and experiences thus far has shown that even if the prince goes down, the white lions and the supporting elements are enough to tip the balance back in my favor. Now that being said its nowhere near full proof but in 7 games I've yet to lose the star dragon. Two of those were against empire with at least 3 cannons. Proper terrain placement, screening and even a bit of luck has seen the star dragon survive every game though the prince usually dies.
Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
My list has archmage rather than prince, as i feels hes my best chance of netting warmachines with purple sun before they get near my monsters. I tend to run my support unit as phoenix guard with botwd (i get about 19-20 of them, no command other than standard) which work as a great anvil and bunked for my support mage. That said i don't run sisters or bolt throwers, i just rely on my monster hammers instead (also have a girffon BSB i'm trialing). I suppose another good thing about keeping only a few monsters is it can get awfully crowded behind that one building blocking LOS!
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
An archmage on the Star Dragon? Interesting proposal that I hadn't considered to be honest. How is it working out? Are you generally pleased by the results? I guess my fear is that I really want the star dragon in combat rather than zooming around and throwing purple suns...
Wouldn't an eagle be a better mount for the archmage?
Wouldn't an eagle be a better mount for the archmage?
Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
I actually think he rates quite well. Book of hoeth and talisman of pres make him a very nasty caster, and his ability to clear threats to the monsters on turn 1 is really very important. Even just give him fencers blades and let him cast like a normal lvl 4, having a lvl 4 and a good dragon in a list is powerful enough to get past the fact that you want him in combat at some point. My problem with the eagle approach is that he dies very very easily to BS fire, and you basically don't get a dragon. I try to approach him like your prince in some way, if the AM dies off the top, i can live with it, provided he's had a chance to clear out as much as possible with death magic. If you need to play avoidance tactics for a while, dragon has the manoeuvrability and resilience to pick and choose the engagements (helps having that phoenix guard block, especially vs demons). Also, when your dragon gets shot out from under you, as a lvl 4 archmage, you still contribute to a strong game, as a prince without a mount, much less so. I'd say 9 games in 10 you'll lose the AM in combat towards the end, but you still need to kill the dragon to get his points. Also saves you the need to have 2 lvl 2s in your hero choice, gives you the chance to run another monster.
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
Interesting! Thanks for the write up.
I've had another thought:
Drop both sister units and take a BsB on a Griffon...
I'm wondering if that would be a better combination as it gets me another monster, keeps the support mages and only cuts into my firepower in a marginal way...
I've had another thought:
Drop both sister units and take a BsB on a Griffon...
I'm wondering if that would be a better combination as it gets me another monster, keeps the support mages and only cuts into my firepower in a marginal way...
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Searching for that competitive dragon list
Another take on the list:
Prince - 614
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, Other Tricksters Shard, Golden Crown
Noble - 170
-BsB, Elven Steed w. Ilthimar Barding, Dragon Armor
-Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone
Mage - 145
-Level 2, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll
9x Silver Helms w. FC - 237
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
10x Archers w. Banner - 110
21x White Lions w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 318
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2499. I think this is probably the strongest variant i've posted so far and will probably be the one I end up taking on Saturday. I went with the more expensive kit on the Reavers to get me those few extra shots to hopefully drop a mangler. I'm hoping the level 2 can get apotheosis if not I'll swap for Drain Magic at least which could be pretty helpful in this setup.
Prince - 614
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, Other Tricksters Shard, Golden Crown
Noble - 170
-BsB, Elven Steed w. Ilthimar Barding, Dragon Armor
-Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone
Mage - 145
-Level 2, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll
9x Silver Helms w. FC - 237
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
10x Archers w. Banner - 110
21x White Lions w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 318
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2499. I think this is probably the strongest variant i've posted so far and will probably be the one I end up taking on Saturday. I went with the more expensive kit on the Reavers to get me those few extra shots to hopefully drop a mangler. I'm hoping the level 2 can get apotheosis if not I'll swap for Drain Magic at least which could be pretty helpful in this setup.
Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
List looks good! I'd still switch in botwd if its uncomped. It's instant protection in some games, and in the right match up its devestating. Even just adding stubborn to the dragon works well. I've tried the griffon bsb and it works well against somethings, terrible against bs based shooting (don't go anywhere near lead belchers!). Let us know how it goes!
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
Banner would be a good idea if I didn't know what most armies were packing. Seeing as the most numerous lists will orcs, ogres, and empire, I'm not super hard pressed to fit in the banner of nerd rage.
- Elessehta of Yvresse
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
Banner is nice just for making the Prince Stubborn, not that he should be losing combat ever...
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
I like that list!
It is going to move fast and there should be too many targets for the enemy to shoot out of the sky before you engage.
It is going to move fast and there should be too many targets for the enemy to shoot out of the sky before you engage.
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
It was awesome! I took best overall scoring 121/123 possible points at the tournament! Battle Reports and pictures to follow.
Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
Excellent! Well done.
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
Awesome mate!!
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Final List for Review, Page 5-- Urgent!
Some pics from this weekend.
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- tournament update
Some post tournament thoughts:
White Lions are frustrating. Yes they're str 6 is nice, and yes they're plenty durable getting to combat. However they're a liability once they arrive. I miss rerolls! I don't roll well enough without them haha. So I'm reworking the list a bit, I don't think i really need the hitting power of those white lions when I could opt for the more survivable phoenix guard. I could though put the noble on foot and run him with the pheonix guard to add a little more punch to the unit. I probably don't need a whole lot though seeing as the dragon + phoenix should be enough to handle all of the extra hitting power. I really just need something that can survive, add ranks and a champion to accept those fracking challenges.
So my thoughts:
Prince - 620
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, the Other Tricksters Shard
Noble - 149
-BsB, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Dawn Stone, Heavy Armor
Mage Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll - 145 Lore of Beasts
9x Silver Helms w. FC + Shields - 237
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
10x Archers w. Banner - 110
19x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 330
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2496
The Dragon Lord + dual phoenixes is pretty terrifying. Plus the speed of the core. I like the 10 additional archers just to add those last few shots to drop manglers/fanatics and to add the extra banner for Blood and Glory. The bolt throwers are pretty meh, but they do fill a role that I don't have covered anywhere else.
thoughts?
White Lions are frustrating. Yes they're str 6 is nice, and yes they're plenty durable getting to combat. However they're a liability once they arrive. I miss rerolls! I don't roll well enough without them haha. So I'm reworking the list a bit, I don't think i really need the hitting power of those white lions when I could opt for the more survivable phoenix guard. I could though put the noble on foot and run him with the pheonix guard to add a little more punch to the unit. I probably don't need a whole lot though seeing as the dragon + phoenix should be enough to handle all of the extra hitting power. I really just need something that can survive, add ranks and a champion to accept those fracking challenges.
So my thoughts:
Prince - 620
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, the Other Tricksters Shard
Noble - 149
-BsB, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Dawn Stone, Heavy Armor
Mage Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll - 145 Lore of Beasts
9x Silver Helms w. FC + Shields - 237
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
10x Archers w. Banner - 110
19x Phoenix Guard w. FC, Banner of Swiftness - 330
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
2496
The Dragon Lord + dual phoenixes is pretty terrifying. Plus the speed of the core. I like the 10 additional archers just to add those last few shots to drop manglers/fanatics and to add the extra banner for Blood and Glory. The bolt throwers are pretty meh, but they do fill a role that I don't have covered anywhere else.
thoughts?
Re: Mal's Blog --- Post Tourny List update.
I think it looks good.
Beasts is an interesting choice. Wyssan's and curse are awesome. I think the rest of the spells are probably not that useful for your list. None of the other lores are especially better though.
Are you running the helms 3x3?
Beasts is an interesting choice. Wyssan's and curse are awesome. I think the rest of the spells are probably not that useful for your list. None of the other lores are especially better though.
Are you running the helms 3x3?
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- John Rainbow
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Post Tourny List update.
I'm trying to come up with my own take on a dragon list at the moment too. Like you, I also found WLs lacklustre and had switched to an a cav. heavy style list some time ago, my next tourny has a limit on Ogre cannons though (max. of 1) so I'm thinking the Dragon might come out to play again. I fancy DPs as the secondary combat unit with the banner as opposed to PG or WLs due to the increased maneuverability they offer and the ability to keep up with the dragon. I'll get back to you soon once I've put something together...
One thing I would say though is I would take High Magic every time. The chance for a decent spell that really helps the dragon list i.e unforging for lord combats or convocation for hordes is great and if you don't roll what you need, you simply hit up drain magic to ensure you at least have some magic def.
One thing I would say though is I would take High Magic every time. The chance for a decent spell that really helps the dragon list i.e unforging for lord combats or convocation for hordes is great and if you don't roll what you need, you simply hit up drain magic to ensure you at least have some magic def.
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Post Tourny List update.
John Rainbow wrote: One thing I would say though is I would take High Magic every time. The chance for a decent spell that really helps the dragon list i.e unforging for lord combats or convocation for hordes is great and if you don't roll what you need, you simply hit up drain magic to ensure you at least have some magic def.
I took High Magic to this last tournament. If I rolled useful spells, great! I cast Apotheosis one time (my prince got tagged by a doom diver and i healed back two wounds), but in some games I wasn't casting any spells ever.
I opted for beasts because it gave a way to buff the main combat troops. Phoenix Guard and Silver Helms through wyssans, a way to clear chaff (flock of doom is better than people think) a way to scare monsters/warmachines (Amber Spear) and a way to slow down hordes (Curse).
Not to mention that Curse is a great way to make those damn iron gut buses/hordes hit on 6s when swinging at the prince and star dragon.
And interesting take on the Dragon Princes. I too had considered it and even play tested it several times. What I was left with was that it was an expensive route that didn't bring anything that phoenix guard couldn't. They grind less well, aren't as survivable against everything and don't bring ranks.
Plus for the points I have in the Phoenix Guard I could get:
9x Dragon Princes with Standard, Musc, BOTWD - 331. I'm now out of points for a champion and remounting my BsB. So i could look into dropping a bolt thrower. But one bolt thrower isn't going to get the job done and is already cutting into my main way of clearing enemy chaff...
The dragon list is a tough riddle! I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences.
@ Atlantic-
The helms in 3x3 is the plan or running them 9 wide to catch skirmishers or screen troops etc.
EDIT: If I had the points I'd take another Level 2 lore of beasts just to help round out the Lore and spell selection!
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- Something Cool
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Re: Mal's Blog --- Post Tourny List update.
John:
Here's something I came up with to run the banner. I added a second noble to maximize the grinding and charge potential. 4 str 7 rerolling attacks is nothing to sneeze at. The Mage I mounted on horseback and slapped into the unit as well to hopefully knock the ward save down to at least a 5+.
I did sacrifice the bolt throwers (basically a 1:1 to swap for the additional noble).
Let me know what y'all think:
Prince - 620
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, the Other Tricksters Shard
Noble - 170
-BsB, Elven Steed w. Ithilmar, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawn Stone, Dragon Armor
Noble - 142
-Elven Steed w. Ilthilmar, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Pot of Fools, Halberd
Mage - 180 (High Magic)
-Lvl 2, Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of the world dragon - 283
10x Silver Helms FC and Shields - 260
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers - 80
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
Here's something I came up with to run the banner. I added a second noble to maximize the grinding and charge potential. 4 str 7 rerolling attacks is nothing to sneeze at. The Mage I mounted on horseback and slapped into the unit as well to hopefully knock the ward save down to at least a 5+.
I did sacrifice the bolt throwers (basically a 1:1 to swap for the additional noble).
Let me know what y'all think:
Prince - 620
-Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak
-Ogre Blade, Dragon Helm, the Other Tricksters Shard
Noble - 170
-BsB, Elven Steed w. Ithilmar, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawn Stone, Dragon Armor
Noble - 142
-Elven Steed w. Ilthilmar, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Pot of Fools, Halberd
Mage - 180 (High Magic)
-Lvl 2, Steed, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury
7x Dragon Princes w. FC, Banner of the world dragon - 283
10x Silver Helms FC and Shields - 260
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers w. Bows and Spears - 95
5x Reavers - 80
Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
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Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
From my dragon experiences:
1: id make the lord more defensive. The dragons power comes from the lord staying alive with other tricksters shard. I went for armour of fortune, lion vloak, shield, sword of might and, ots. 624pts
2: Id look at a second mage with light or heavens. Why?
A: ice shard blizzard for wsrmachines/shooting and -1 terror test (plus combat)
B: curse of midnight wind means he will hardly ever wound phoenix/dragon in combat
C: harmonic convergence: stop fluffing wound rolls
D: comet- bye warmachines
E: phas protection great for your mobile bubble
F: asf dragon or ws10 I 10 dragon
1: id make the lord more defensive. The dragons power comes from the lord staying alive with other tricksters shard. I went for armour of fortune, lion vloak, shield, sword of might and, ots. 624pts
2: Id look at a second mage with light or heavens. Why?
A: ice shard blizzard for wsrmachines/shooting and -1 terror test (plus combat)
B: curse of midnight wind means he will hardly ever wound phoenix/dragon in combat
C: harmonic convergence: stop fluffing wound rolls
D: comet- bye warmachines
E: phas protection great for your mobile bubble
F: asf dragon or ws10 I 10 dragon
Twitter: @chumphammer
Old WFB coming to give AoS a real try for a while.
Old WFB coming to give AoS a real try for a while.
Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
Hi Mal. Nice to see you’re making it work, these army blogs are always full of insights so keep it up
I’ve been running a quite similar list for some time now, so for a little inspiration if nothing else:
Ogre Blade Star Dragon Prince
Star Lance BSB
Mounted High Mage w. Ring of Fury
15 Helms
3x5 Reavers w. Bows
12 DP’s with BotWD
One of each Phoenix
I traded a Frost Phoenix for its fiery friend due to a lack of (archer) shooting and it’s been performing well in this role.
@Wamphyri & the second mage. I’m struggling to get off spells with any regularity without investing quite heavily in the magic phase, and I find the star dragon list is already starved for points. Would you mind elaborating on your approach?
I’ve been running a quite similar list for some time now, so for a little inspiration if nothing else:
Ogre Blade Star Dragon Prince
Star Lance BSB
Mounted High Mage w. Ring of Fury
15 Helms
3x5 Reavers w. Bows
12 DP’s with BotWD
One of each Phoenix
I traded a Frost Phoenix for its fiery friend due to a lack of (archer) shooting and it’s been performing well in this role.
@Wamphyri & the second mage. I’m struggling to get off spells with any regularity without investing quite heavily in the magic phase, and I find the star dragon list is already starved for points. Would you mind elaborating on your approach?
- John Rainbow
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Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
I don't think you can really expect to have a dominant magic phase with a level2 as your only caster. I would try and build him to be as defensive as possible (to stop enemy spells) and then if you manage to get any of your own off it's a bonus.SpikeyElf wrote:@Wamphyri & the second mage. I’m struggling to get off spells with any regularity without investing quite heavily in the magic phase, and I find the star dragon list is already starved for points. Would you mind elaborating on your approach?
Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
Hey there Malossar, I am planning to build a very similar army for 2600pts! I would really love for you to drop by and give some suggestions because you are experienced in the use of such an army and I am about to spend a lot of time and money for buying&painting toys.
Here's the thread: Iceguard of the Cold Drake Keep
Here's the thread: Iceguard of the Cold Drake Keep
Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
Exactly my thoughts which is why I’m interested to hear if Wamphyri knows something I don’t (probably ), as he proposed running a double lvl. 2 phase. My initial thought was that the second lvl. 2 wouldn’t have enough of an impact to justify the cost.John Rainbow wrote:I don't think you can really expect to have a dominant magic phase with a level2 as your only caster. I would try and build him to be as defensive as possible (to stop enemy spells) and then if you manage to get any of your own off it's a bonus.
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Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
Super keen to read those reports!
Fervent dragon addict and Australian warhammer enthusiast
@THR1LLHELM
@THR1LLHELM
Re: Mal's Blog --- the all mounted star dragon attack force
Agree with Whamphir about the dragon lord. He isn't there to kill as much as he is there to stay alive and carry the OTS for the dragon. Also the magic sword so you don't get tied up in etherals. And an 18" LD 10 bubble is never bad.
About the second mage, I think it could work but I would go without and see magic as the way John Rainbow see is (entirely bonus). I don't entirely buy the whole "without a LV 4 you won't cast many spells" theory, as I have had great success with a loremaster, as has swordmaster. However, the reason the loremaster works is because he just has so many redundant spells he can spam cast that some spells will go through. A second LV 2 will give you more spells to cast which is good, so it could be worth the investment as it would allow you to spread your resources over 4 spells rather than 2, which makes it harder for your opponent to prioritize his dispel dice.
The reason I wouldn't take one in a dragon list though is because you don't need all that much help in combat, and damage spells can only be used when you are not in CC (which means in the perfect world you won't have many targets at all since everything is engaged all game!). I'd spend the points on the 2nd noble instead of a second LV 2, as 3 more higher strength attacks will help you grind and will do more to counter your army's weaknesses than a mage (particularly with heavens I think as it doesn't do much to help you grind, it just protects you better, and you're already pretty tough to kill!)
About the second mage, I think it could work but I would go without and see magic as the way John Rainbow see is (entirely bonus). I don't entirely buy the whole "without a LV 4 you won't cast many spells" theory, as I have had great success with a loremaster, as has swordmaster. However, the reason the loremaster works is because he just has so many redundant spells he can spam cast that some spells will go through. A second LV 2 will give you more spells to cast which is good, so it could be worth the investment as it would allow you to spread your resources over 4 spells rather than 2, which makes it harder for your opponent to prioritize his dispel dice.
The reason I wouldn't take one in a dragon list though is because you don't need all that much help in combat, and damage spells can only be used when you are not in CC (which means in the perfect world you won't have many targets at all since everything is engaged all game!). I'd spend the points on the 2nd noble instead of a second LV 2, as 3 more higher strength attacks will help you grind and will do more to counter your army's weaknesses than a mage (particularly with heavens I think as it doesn't do much to help you grind, it just protects you better, and you're already pretty tough to kill!)