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Path To Glory - ETC All Games Up!
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Author:  Atlantic [ Mon May 06, 2013 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

Hey Curu

I like your cav list alot. I play cav heavy and wanted to offer some of what I've learned.

My main army is Bretonnia. I run a pretty nasty deathstar of KotR (which has been toned down pretty good from it's original incarnation) supported by a big stubborn unit of Knights Errant.

When I first tried Bretonnia I went for a fully mounted approach. Unfortunately, it didn't really work out. Terrain is a real problem for cavalry. No joke, in most of my games, I feel like I lose more knights to terrain than the enemy. While smart play can work around this to an extent, unfortunately you have to get in there and forests, swamps, and buildings are a major pain.

You will also find that your games are going to all kind've be the same. You will blow through the enemy line and then roll it up.

Good luck with it! I think it will do pretty well. Beware of long grinding combats, undead, and huge blocks of cheap infantry!

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Tue May 07, 2013 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

Thanks a lot for your input :)

I hear you with regards to terrain. I think this depends a lot on the context in which you play. While forests are hard for cavalry, it also means that infantry lose steadfast ;)

As for games being similar, we`ll have to wait and see: the armies I usually play often don`t have that much of a "line" to roll up. We`ll have to wait and see what comes. Please note that I`m not 100% sure I`ll drop the combined arms concept though. While playing around with the deathstar is fun on paper, it certainly lacks a lot of versatility compared to the combined arms approach.

Author:  Atlantic [ Tue May 07, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

So I've been sitting in my office all day thinking about that list.

I'm going to try a version of it!

2398

Prince, Dragon Armour, Horse, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield

Archmage, Book of Hoeth, Level 4, High Magic, Crown of Command

Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, Horse with Barding, Charmed Shield, Star Lance, Golden Crown, Potion of Foolhardiness

Mage, Level 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll (on foot)

5 reavers w/ bows

5 reaves w/ bows

50 Spearmen, full command, banner of swiftness

12 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti Heroes

Frost Phoenix

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 08, 2013 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

Very interesting idea! The Spears not only provide steadfast-breaking stuff but are also very hard to shift given their sheer size.

Author:  Malossar [ Wed May 08, 2013 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

Curu Olannon wrote:
Very interesting idea! The Spears not only provide steadfast-breaking stuff but are also very hard to shift given their sheer size.


Hey could use your advice on what to fill my last 120 in on for my Dragon Prince style list.

Author:  Atlantic [ Wed May 08, 2013 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

I think the spears are a good idea too, because it also makes terrain much easier to manage.

I have tweaked it a bit further. I'm going to take the fire phoenix instead and put the obsidian trinket on my level 2 mage to fill out the points.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 08, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

@Malossar Dragonborne - Will take a look ;)

@Atlantic - Sounds good :)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 08, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 8th ed. High Elf Army Blog

.::. Battle Report - First Game with the New Book! .::.

Right, so this will be a rather quick report but still better than nothing. I simply don`t have the time (usually) to type out reports as extensively as I used to. Anyway, enjoy the read:

Lists were pretty much like this:
TK 2 lvl 1 deaths, 1 lvl 4 nehek, Tomb King with Great Weapon
3x20 Archers, champs
3x5 Horse Archers
4 Necknights
3 Necknights
Warsphinx
Hierotitan
Casket
2x Catapult

Cavprince, Starlance Noble
BoH Archmage

20 Archers
Helmbus
2x5 Reavers
18 Swordmasters, BOTWD
12 Lions
3 Repeaters
Sisters of Avelorn

// Pre-game thoughts and deployment //

I knew that Strange would have magic dominance and that I needed to close with his juicy stuff quickly. I thought about taking the Fiery Convocation against him, but decided against it because it would be too easy for him to move his characters out of the affected units, meaning it wouldn't be worth the insane cost to cast it. Instead I opted for having the Swordmasters in a more aggressive role with the AM which would allow me to trickle, using the BoH to full effect and keep the Swordmasters dangerous.

Deployment saw me choose the side opposite an impassable piece of terrain. The idea was to see what Strange would do and either go full-speed ahead or wrap around using the cavbus. This would leave the majority of my army unprotected, ld-wise, but I didn't consider it much of a problem to be honest. I took care to place the RBTs over 6" apart for panic and Light of Death reasons. The Reavers were placed on extreme flanks, allowing me to deploy as I pleased and use their vanguard in a defensive manner against his Horse Archers, should he play them offensively.

In the end I was pretty happy but I knew the game would hinge on a few things: Could the cavalry get through fast enough? Would my ranged presence weaken him so much that his MC wouldn`t be a threat to either my cavalry or infantry? Could I hold the line despite the cavbus and LD-protection taking off?

Image

I vanguarded the East Reavers to counter the Horse Archers. With Strange placing double Horse Archers on the West I knew I would have to kill them fast if my cavalry were to make it to his lines before like T5. I thus Vanguarded the other Reavers straight ahead, risking the 1, 2 dangerous terrain in my T1 (if he got first turn) for a charge to ease my life.

Spells were dual Spirit Leech, nehek stuff. I got Drain, Missile, Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds.

Strange got first turn and off we went!

// Early Game //

His fast cav failed to impress me much. I cleared him out on both flanks with no losses, a few lucky rolls on my part but on average I will at least win. The Reavers surviving was merely a bonus. His artillery took out a few Lions and I moved up, magicking and shooting the small necroknights down 3-4 wounds. Trickle BoH is extremely powerful, with my cavalry in a dominating position and my Phoenix being so fast it was hard for him to prioritize.

Image

Strange tried to catch my Eastern Reavers which I had played too close to his Knights. I decided to flee in the end and was lucky not to get caught - which left him in a terrible position. He had to let Hand of Glory through and a BS6 RBT took care of the Knights to a point where they were no longer a threat. The rest started focusing on the Sphinx and I managed a couple of wounds. Meanwhile Strange managed to kill the Phoenix, taking a wound off of it with the Horse Archers and hitting with a catapult for 4 more (with the base being 50x100 it was impossible for me to hide it from both). He tried to Spirit Leech my Prince but LD10 proved solid.

Image

With my breaking through fast, Strange dedicated the Sphinx to rearguard duty which opened up for my infantry centrally.

// Middle Game //

Strange contemplated for a long time what to do about my cavalry. In the end he decided to change roles, moving the Warsphinx up centrally and free reforming the Knights to face my Helms. The Sphinx was wounded twice already so I wasn't too worried about this, however he got -1S, -1T through on my cavbus, which meant that charging the Knights wouldn't be a safe prospect.

Image

I decided to simply go for it anyways and declared Potion of Foolhardiness. The Noble would wound and kill on 2+ anyway and the Prince would leave him with a 6+. I figured that even without magic I would be in good shape. The ensuing charge saw Strange blow his scroll to keep my barrage at bay, this however did cost him his Phoenix as I got a magic missile off at him, making the RBTs job easy enough. I was lucky with the SHelms and killed off 2 Knights with ASF, the remaining two failed to land killing blows and were killed by combat resolution. I had opened up a huge gap both on the West and in the middle of the board:

Image

// End Game //

Figuring I couldn't win a long-ranged fight, my Avelorn Archers and East Reavers simply charged a unit of Archers. With WS5 on the Sisters he would need 5's to hit me, whereas I would hit with 90% of my attacks. Better than facing lots of arrows and the catapult. The Repeaters targeted the Bone Giant and took off a wound or two before eventually killing his catapult instead. They also brought down the Casket to 1W.

Image

The cavalry were depleted from magic, shooting and the Knights. With a couple of Nehek buffs the ensuing combat between his Tomb King proved to be a lot more interesting than it should've been: the Prince was left on 1W and there were only 2 Helms left at the end of the game. Luckily, trickle-high-magic sealed the deal as he was forced to let Drain Magic through. The Lions ended up facing the Bonegiant which they managed to kill, although only 2 models were left in the end.

In my T6 I managed to put the Helms into the flank of his Hierophant's unit. They were all killed by combat resolution and my Repeaters had taken a heavy toll on his firepower. The Sisters eventually brought down the other Warriors as well (aided in the end by the crumble rolls from the loss of the Mage). He was left with a single model on a single wound: the Casket was indeed the only sign there had ever been Tomb Kings around. I had lost the Phoenix, some Reavers, half Lions and the Archers (who fled the table early after failing a panic roll + subsequent rally roll from a catapult). All in all, a 1500 point victory to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

I think the big unit of Swordmasters is far from performing as well as I would've liked it to. You simply cannot move on with it in an aggressive manner: it isn`t strong enough. There are so many matchups in which that unit, in a standalone role, simply has to wait and bide its time. True, it did get my mage in a good position for the relatively short-ranged High Magic spells which in turn gave me a dominating trickle phase, but I don't think this unit is needed to accomplish that.

This game, combined with the recent musings with regards to the Cavstar, has lead me to wanting to try out a combination: essentially swapping the Swordmasters for Dragon Princes and ditch the Helms. Giving the DP the BOTWD and the Sword of Anti-Heroes creates a very powerful bus in itself without investing 60% of your army in it. This allows for a solid ranged presence and magic phase as well, which I believe to be crucial to make us work. While Repeaters are very, very random they are a great counter to things like flying Daemon Princes and mounted characters as well as MCs. If nothing else they help dictate the movement of the game, which essentially is half the battle.

I've given some thought to other Lores with the Archmage but at the moment I think High Magic synergizes very well with the combined arms approach. Its flexibility is its greatest strength and it synergizes so insanely well with Book of Hoeth it's not even funny. Just ask Strange how frustrating it was to defend against 1D6-casting in shitty phases like 4v3 when I had +5 to cast and every spell mattered. The thing is that without any way to manipulate PD, you simply cannot guarantee a killer going through when you need it to, besides opting for such a lore results in magic essentially doing very little when the phases are low - a terrible prospect in my opinion. Thus, I think trickle is the way to go, unless you can get a lore which is overall very useful and always has something you can utilize to great effect. The alternative lores for me are Heavens and Shadow, both possessing very good spells for the Archmage to take advantage of. I think the main weakness of high magic with my proposed new list is the list's inability to truly take advantage of its lore attribute, combined with the fact that it's short-ranged by nature. With the BotWD going on the DP, the Archmage is way more vulnerable to sniping spells which are very popular. By comparison, Heavens and Shadow have way greater range and their lore attributes (well, Heavens anyways) aren't wasted on a unit of Archers. What bothers me with these two lores however are their inability to deal with stuff like 3++ // re-roll 1's (Tzeentch WoC exalted -- Arcane Unforging) and huge units (Fiery Convocation and Tempest are both great against spammy armies).

I have to give it some more thought, but this is my proposed compromise between the cavstar and the combined arms, in my opinion giving me the best of two worlds:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
Core = 600

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
10 White Lions = 130
Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2392

Author:  Elessehta of Yvresse [ Thu May 09, 2013 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First Report Up! 2400 vs Tomb Kings

You're back to using your converted cav prince, such a nice model it good it's being used again ^_^

Author:  dabber [ Thu May 09, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First Report Up! 2400 vs Tomb Kings

Star Lance and Sword of Anti-Heroes placement. My thought is the lance makes more sense on the Dragon Prince champion, and the sword on the hero. Mainly because if stuff survives the charge, or charges you, they likely can kill the DP champion, meaning you won't have the sword in later rounds. Thoughts?

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First Report Up! 2400 vs Tomb Kings

@Elessehta of Yvresse - I really like the model and am glad I get to use him again. I intend to fix the Star Dragon`s base as well and use it as a Frostheart Phoenix - the Carmine Dragon is too cool to pass up on, a shame the rider doesn`t make sense though as I was very happy with how it turned out in the end.

@dabber - DP champ has WS5 and I6 A3 compared to WS6 I7 A4, which is a huge difference. This unit is meant to take stuff as quickly as possible. Yes, losing the Sword early can hurt, but overall there`s more utility to having the configuration like this I believe. This also creates more protection for the BSB as people need to focus the Drakemaster. Although he sports a 2+ with a single re-roll he is fairly squishy.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First Report Up! 2400 vs Tomb Kings

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Warriors of Chaos (ETC comp) .::.

My list:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
Core = 600

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
10 White Lions = 130
Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2392

His list:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle - 1+ AS, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Fly
Sorceror Lord - Enchanted Shield, Scroll
Sorceror - Skull of Katam (both had death magic)
Exalted BSB on steed with GW, 2+, 3++
Exalted on Disc, 2+/4++ re-roll 1`s

21 Warriors of Tz, Sword and Board, FC with Blasted Banner
Dogs + 2 chariots

4 Crushers, Gleaming Pennant and Musician
Hellcannon

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

I wanted my RBTs to command the field and either dictate the DP or start blasting him apart. The bus` main role would be to get across the field, neutralize the Crushers and start working on his infantry and/or Hellcannon, depending on the game. Magic - I was considering High Magic vs Heavens for a long time and, when I couldn`t find my high magic cards, decided for heavens. As we were about to roll however I found the cards so decided to play high magic (as I had originally told my opponent as well), too early to give up on it despite other people`s marginal results.

He got Spirit Leech x2, Soulblight and Purple Sun.

Deployment saw his Crushers commit early on and I placed my bus directly across, as close as possible.

Image

I rolled a `6` for first turn and his +1 didn`t help him. We then remembered that we had forgot Vanguard, I moved the Reavers and we rolled again: he won and went first.

// WoC T1 //

Crushers and Chariot moved backwards, DP moved up full speed. Magic was all out of range so he just skipped the phase. Hellcannon missed.

Image

// HE T1 //

Not fearing much I moved the bus up a full 18". The reavers on the West moved to disrupt his Chariot, the Reavers on the East charged Warhounds. The Phoenix blocked his Hero`s path to the mage, though this was fairly unnecessary seeing as he has to challenge. Regardless the Lions moved to intercept, should he try anything. Magic gave us a massive phase and between arcane unforging and fiery convocation, his scroll was blown. I then tried to 1-dice Hand of Glory but failed the roll twice. My Phoenix got a 4+ ward due to the winds. Shooting saw the doomed RBT hit the DP but his ward saved the single bolt (the Reavers had removed the charmed shield). The other RBTs did nothing and the Archers killed a warrior or two. Reavers killed warhounds but not all and chased after them, unable to reach them.

Image

// WoC T2 //

He opened the phase with the Hellcannon failing its rampage test despite BSB re-roll. This forced it to move towards my bus, nearly making the charge even! My opponent told me after the game that he had intended to sacrifice his chariot as bait and play the Crushers through the center by means of a Swift reform. Obviously this wasn`t possible now so the crushers were stuck in an awkward position. His DP charged the RBT, the West chariot played hide`n`seek with the Reavers and his disc hero decided to put some pressure on me with moving into charge range of everything juicy.

Magic saw him IF Spirit Leech, which did nothing as I rolled a `6` for the Archmage. He got a S10 blast which killed a few Warriors and drained his dice. Shooting was nonexistant and in combat he killed the RBT to reform.

Image

// HE T2 //

I moved the Frostheart to the rear of his Warriors and the bus charged the Hellcannon with the Reavers interrupting his chariot + crushers. The West Reavers both failed their march tests but got away regardless.

Magic was a solid 7v4 which made it easy to put arcane unforging on his flying hero. He lost the ward and I was a happy camper. I also managed to boost an RBTs BS to 5 and it replied in kind with putting a single bolt through the Exalted. The rest of my shooting took down a couple of more warriors. In combat the Hellcannon was left on a single wound.

Image

// WoC T3 //

DP moves up centrally, crushers reform and move past me, chariot charges reavers. He contemplates for a while and concludes with the fact that he has to charge my bus with his BSB. That he does and we move to magic: A 6v5 split isn`t optimal but it doesn`t matter as he again gets IF (this time Soulblight on the bus) and again a small template kills off a few warriors. They are now suddenly looking very, very tasty for my Phoenix.

In combat my DP champ accepts the challenge because I`m afraid the BSB isn`t strong enough to take out the last wound on the Hellcannon. The Prince does this easily though but unfortunately the BSB passes his break test. My reavers die.

Image

// HE T3 //

I moved the Archmage out of the Archers to a place where nothing can see him. The Phoenix rear-charges the Warriors. The center performs various small moves to get better lanes, counter-charges etc.

Magic sees me get a 7v4 split and I manage to cast Hand of Glory on the bus for WS8 on the Prince, which I considered crucial. The Phoenix got +1A, perfect!

Shooting was insignificant as the Sisters failed to impress Skullcrushers and the RBT both missed the DP with single bolts and the Archers failed to penetrate 1+.

Combat saw his BSB take 2W and fail to wound my Prince. He passed his test again though. The Phoenix brought the Warriors just below steadfast and they broke. I failed to catch him but he was below 25% anyways.

Image

// WoC T4 //

DP goes into Lions (!) and Crushers into Avelorn Archers, whose S&S does nothing. Chariot flanks bus and the other clears even more Reavers (who were busy protecting the phoenix). Warriors fail to roll snake eyes and flee.

Magic is insignificant and we move to combat. The BSB dies to my Prince but the chariot kills enough to still win him combat. I pass my break test and reform. Lions lose 2 and hold on stubborn vs DP. Crushers murder sisters and overrun, but only a few inches. I combat reform Lions vs DP.

Image

// HE T4 //

Phoenix charges Warriors and a long flee takes them all off the table, including 2 mages.

I moved the Archmage into the house and shuffle Archers further behind. Magic sees me get off Arcane Unforging on the Crushers to remove their GP and take a wound. Shooting sees the Archers manage 2 (!) wounds on the Crushers, killing off a model. The RBTs both fluff again. In combat I kill the Chariot and reform, however disaster strikes as the Lions all perish and he reforms towards the house.

Image

The rest of the game goes like this: his DP eats my Archmage and flies to safety. His Crushers try and charge my Archers (RBT are both out of arc) but I flee with both: one unit runs off the table, the other gets too far away. This leaves him stranded and a rear charge from my bus completely destroys him. The Frostheart Phoenix eats the last chariot, leaving only his DP alive at the end of T6. I had lost 3x5 Reavers, one unit of Archers, Lions, Sisters, RBT and an Archmage. The difference was roughly 1200 VPs in my favour, a solid win for the High Elves :)

// Evaluation //

High magic was amazing in this game. I hadn`t considered previously how strong the attribute is against magic snipes, but it really does leave Spirit Leech a non-concern. Furthermore, Arcane Unforging and Convocation leaves a lot of matchups wasting the scroll prior to combat, allowing stuff like Hand of Glory, Apotheosis and Walk Between Worlds to be cast at will. I`m not sold on the fact that it`s better than Heavens yet (which I think is the clearly superior lore from the BRB for this list), but the flexibility can be truly crucial in an uncomped environment: arcane unforging alone can be a game winner, same goes for Walk Between Worlds and Fiery Convocation.

List-wise I really like the change. I didn`t miss the Swordmasters at all. The BOTWD on the Princes + the Sword of Anti Heroes make it a much more capable bus and a budget-star to boot, capable of going head-to-head with lots of opponents. The main issue this list has now is things that are hard to grind. Primarily OnG, Skaven and likely Empire. In these matchups High Magic is clearly superior to Heavens with Fiery Convocation and Tempest.

Next game will feature the same list, perhaps a few minor changes but nothing big.

Author:  Elessehta of Yvresse [ Thu May 09, 2013 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

Heh, who needs sisters when archers can do the work =P

Author:  Delaqure [ Thu May 09, 2013 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

Curu, it appears that you are having the same issues with your BTs that others have. They always seem to miss! #-o

Author:  Jal [ Thu May 09, 2013 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

Interesting Curu, after studying the new book, I'd come to almost the same list with a very few exceptions:

Mage Lord has a steed and Crown of command instead of Tali/Ironcurse

Archers down to 10 and 11 and another unit of Reavers in.

No lions, but 10 DPs and an Eagle.

Having the Crown in means I'm happy to make the unit 1 or 2 wide as needed.

Magic wise, I'm torn between High, Heavens and Beasts. I'm going to try all three along with Life till I find the right balance.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

@Elessehta of Yvresse - I find that Sisters are a poor unit to take for damage output. They are in my list because they have ranged, flaming attacks. Magical is nice as well, but not crucial. Archers frequently surprise me, I really don`t expect them to do much and if they do more than nothing I`m just happy ;)

@Delaqure - The thing is that this isn't a problem per se: at 100 points a piece it is indeed a problem, at 70 I don't think this is the case. They buy you board control, which is what you're looking for. Besides, they did kill a flying exalted, something I never would've managed to deal with without the RBTs. The next match will also show some pretty cool RBT action!

@Jal - As you can tell from the previous discussion in the thread I think a DP bus has some merit. However for now I believe this list to be stronger as it is more flexible and addresses issues which the bus cannot cope with, at least as I see it. For the bus I`m 100% sure that High is the way to go: the lore attribute is insane, arcane unforging helps take care of nasty stuff, fiery + tempest is great against hordes (which is a really big problem for the bus because it lacks grinding power).

I had another game tonight vs TK. BR being written as we speak ;)

Author:  HERO [ Thu May 09, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

What is your opinion on not running Sisters? Tethlis swears by them but I'm not so sure yet. For 11 Sisters, I can buy ~5x Dragon Princes w/ Mus.

Author:  f00ssa [ Thu May 09, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

It looks like you can afford a mundane shield on your Prince, and an Enchanted or Charmed shield on your DP champ?

Congratulations on the win

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

@HERO - I run Sisters, just not in big numbers. Regardless of Tethlis' bad luck, RBTs provide board control and a threat to tough things. Sisters do not. Have fun having invested major points in them when 1+ Empire shows up - a matchup that is already quite terrible for us to face.

@f00ssa - Charmed Shield is a good idea, as is Enchanted :)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Tomb Kings (uncomped)

My list:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
Core = 600

8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
10 White Lions = 130
Special = 477

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 548

Army Total = 2392

His list:
Tomb King with GW, Dragonbane Gem
Hierophant lvl 4 with Earthing Rod
Level 2 Death with Scroll

3x20 Archers
3x5 Horse Archers

Warsphinx
4 Necroknights
3 Necroknights

1 Necrosphinx
1 Casket of Souls
2 Catapults

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Having faced a very similar list not long ago I was expecting Strange to play a more compact game this time around. His deployment however led me to believe otherwise and indeed I was correct: he was relatively spread out with wide open flanks: while chaff can help with this they are powerless against a phoenix. Magic saw him get extra attacks, killing blow, desiccation and movement, along with Fate of Bjuna and Spirit Leech. I didn't roll a single double so had no choice but to take the 2 best and swap 2 for signatures. I ditched Fiery Convocation and Tempest for Drain and Soul Quench, leaving Hand of Glory and Apotheosis. Not having Walk Between Worlds was something I was sure I would be missing.

I spread out using almost the entire table width, which granted my RBTs a great point to fire from, enabling me to put pressure on his MC should they try and wheel around to my soft corner. Essentially, I was almost playing a refused flank to give my Archmage a safe haven. Near the end of our deployment, Strange did something brilliant: he placed his Scouts 12" away from my Western Reavers. Because he "lost" the vanguard roll-off, I was thus denied the chance to move them. Strange moved his scouts backwards with the last vanguard move.

Image

Rolling for first turn I managed a '1' and with his +1 he automatically went first.

// TK T1 //

His Necrosphinx moved up a full 10" to put pressure on my Archmage from the get-go. His Knights moved up as well but were somewhat cautious, fearing my bus. The Warsphinx with its flank-protecting position took aim for the Lions. His Deathmage and accompanying Archers occupied a central house and I knew immediately that shifting them without Fiery Convocation would be very, very hard.

Magic was 11v7 and he started off with double shots on the East Archers which had range to my central Reavers. I figured that stopping Light of Death was more important and let it go, hoping a sole Reaver could survive which would essentially be enough to perform their duty. I contained the rest of his phase.

Shooting started off with the 5 central Reavers dying. He then used the house-Archers to kill an RBT (he rolled three 6's out of 4 hits), which panicked the West Reavers off the table. One catapult then proceeds to land a direct hit, killing 8 Archers from the Archmage's bunker. The other glanced a few Lions but no wounds were dealt. Overall, a terrible start for me: my power to deal with the Sphinx on the West was severely hurt, my Archmage was vulnerable and the Reavers were lost, meaning I had to commit my Phoenix early on.

Image

// HE T1 //

I thought for a while about what to do and decided to go for the following: the cavalry would have to play catch-up duty with the Sphinx threatening me so badly. Furthermore, I had to play the Archmage risky to have him survive "safely". The end result was moving the Archmage out of the Archers, staying 1" behind them, with cavalry in counter-charge positions. I had to offer a charge to his Knights, but they would need 11+ to make it. The idea was to blast the Sphinx to kingdom come with missiles of both the mundane and magical sort. The Phoenix meanwhile flew up a full 20" to threaten his artillery and bunker.

Magic came up 11v6. Not only did this give me a lot to play with, the Phoenix also received a 4+ ward. I started off with a Hand of Glory on the 15 Archers, boosting their BS which he let through. I then 6-diced Soul Quench and with the help of the Book, I got an IF result. I now had a 3+ ward up on the Archmage and the miscast result killed a few archers but failed to wound the wizard. After my shooting was all done with, the Sphinx was down to 1W. I had also taken a wound off of one unit of Necroknights, 2 off the other and 1 off the Warsphinx, many thanks to my RBT (who were out of range of the Necrosphinx) and the Sisters of Avelorn.

Now I would just have to see if my gamble would pay off or if my Archmage would have to pay the price, possibly the phoenix as well. Worst comes to worst, the phoenix dies, archmage dies and necrosphinx kill the cavbus...

Image

// TK T2 //

Strange noticed exactly what I did and went to town: the Sphinx charged the Archers in front of my Archmage. To my frustration their S&S didn`t manage to land a '6'. The Knights luckily failed to make their 11+ needed to flank my bus. This did however leave a very, very juicy flank shot for my RBTs.

Magic came up 7v3. He tried to Spirit Leech my Archmage but failed to cast, using only 2D6 this was a very risky start in my opinion, the mage only being L2 himself. He then tried Light of Death on my Phoenix, which I failed to dispel. A very lucky LD test of 7 (on 3D6) saw the bird lose no wounds and I breathed a sigh of relief.

Shooting saw his house archers open up on the Archmage. To our amazement he scored 12 hits out of 20 shots, needing 5+!! I'm used to seeing Rusty pull this shit with Daemonic ward saves, but seeing TK shoot like this when it matters is completely new to me. He wounded me 5 times over. I decided to throw one save at a time, hoping the 3++ would be enough. The first two dice failed though, but the next two passed. Alas, the last dice failed as well and as I was about to remove him I remembered that Look out, sir! also works against normal BS-fire when you're not in a unit. I then picked up 3D6 (the unsaved wounds) to roll 4+ with... The first two came up as 3's, but luckily the last dice came up a '5', saving the Archmage just barely! His catapults targeted the Phoenix. One hit and I failed my ward, but the multiple wounds were "just" two. With the second missing, my bird was in perfect shape to cause some major issues.

To wrap the turn up my Archers managed to kill the Sphinx, many thanks to ASF! If he'd have overrun into my mage I could've flanked him with my cavbus but this would've been a hairy situation at best, seeing as I would then waste an entire turn cleaning up in an area where strange had lots of chaff.

Image

// HE T2 //

My Frostheart Phoenix was just barely in the Hierophant's bunker's flank, meaning I couldn't have a go at him and would have to face the Tomb King. With only 4A and 3W left this was too risky and I decided to go for the catapults instead: they were positioned so that I could overrun given where the bird was placed. The bus shuffled away from a likely charge range of the knights, with Lions moving West and Sisters moving backwards.

Magic came up 6v5 and my Phoenix had +1S. I started off with a boosted Hand of Glory on my bus: if Strange got lucky I might have WS9 on the Prince, leaving his KB attacks hitting me on 5's. If he didn't, I'd have M10 next turn. He let it through and dispelled a boosted magic missile instead. I failed to cast Apotheosis on the Archmage himself with my last D6.

Both RBT manageed to hit flank of the Necro Knights and managed an amazing 7W combined! The glory of flank shots is taking down the MC to 1W left on the model before you shoot, almost ensuring a rank penetration. They were weakened before I started which was half the reason this was possible. The unit was reduced from "very dangerous" to I-don't-even-care-about-you-no-more. The Sisters put another wound on the Sphinx while my Archmage's new-found bunker fluffed against his fast cav.

In combat the Phoenix easily killed the catapult and overran to the next. I was back in the game!

Image

// TK T3 //

His Sphinx went for the bait and charged my Lions. I happily fled away and his Sphinx stumbled fowards 4" - taking it out of the arc of the sisters (he needed double 6's to reach me and didn't want to give me a free S&S). At this point he started reacting in a "bubble-fasion" pulling everything together in an attempt to make a harder bubble to go for.

Magic was a massive 12v5. 3D6 Smiting I let go and his SL goes off agaist my AM with IF! With only one spell through last turn and a single wound left, I fear for the effects. Furthermore I roll a '1' for the LD comparison but so does Strange and my wizard yet lives! His IF result drains his magic levels. He tries Light of Death with his last dice but I dispel it. The last 5 Archers from the Archmage's first bunker die to shooting.

My Phoenix won and reformed to face his center - his "retreated" knights found themselves presenting a juicy flank to the cold bird.

My apologies, I forgot to take a picture after this turn.

// HE T3 //

Bus marched up 20". Lions rallied. Phoenix into remaining Knights' flank. Magic is 10v6: I heal a wound on the Archmage, I add +1 to WS, BS, I and M of the Archers, I get Drain through and he dispels Soul Quench. With a 4++ however I'm confident the unit won't die to his house-archers.

Shooting puts 2W on the sole surviving necroknight from the big unit while the Warsphinx is reduced to a single wound as well.

In combat my Phoenix performs admirably: 4 wounds are caused for none in return - with charge + flank this is enough to crumble the unit (just barely, due to the fact that the RBTs had previously damaged them). I reform to face his center with everything and the game has truly shifted with regards to who has the initiative:

Image

// TK T4 //

Everything moves to chaff me away as much as it can. Magic is 7v5 but he fails to cast a boosted smiting (BoH ensures an IF dispel!). The 70 shots fail to hurt my Phoenix and with this, the game is pretty much over: in my next turn the Phoenix charges his bunker and the Bus goes into the nearest chaff, overrunning into soft Archers. With some luck, his T4 could've turned things around (desiccation on the bus and magic to kill the bird would be a good start) but the lackluster results from magic + shooting left him in a terrible spot.

In the end he had nothing left on the table. These pictures tell the main part of the finishing turns of this game:

Image

Image

I had lost roughly 400 points, Strange had lost 2500 (2400 + general). A very solid victory to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

The game started out so well from Strange. Some amazing moves and an extremely hairy T1 for me. However, I think two things cost him the game: first, just good old, pure bad luck. My Archmage could've easily been dead T2, which would've meant so much for the development of the game. The constant ward on the Archers and minor but vital buffs thrown around as well as the MM threat and Book of Hoeth for dispelling were invaluable for me. The second I think is mostly related to his deployment: without playing a very compact game I fail to see how TK can truly protect that which matters most and continue dealing damage. I silenced his artillery after only two turns of shooting. Also, just like our last game his Nehek caster was too far away to make a significant impact on the game. I believe this type of TK army needs to play more compact and take more care to make it hard to reach the vital stuff during deployment. Also, one must not be afraid to use the Necroknights + Nehek buffs for what they are worth.

With regards to the HE side of things, my Lions did nothing in this game. With that being said, they made a Sphinx go out of position and presented a constant threat to any over-zealous knights. I think I can learn how to play this unit even better, but for now I'm happy with their inclusion. I also managed to play the Sisters very well in this game: TK are a terrible matchup for them as there are no optimal targets. Yet they managed to plink away at the Sphinx, one wound at a time. With his Nehek caster being too far away to heal, I could spread my firepower between his 3 hard hitters at will and in the end they did account for either 3 or 4 of the Sphinx' 5 wounds.

The disaster that was TK T1 I don't think I could've avoided. I did forget the Ironcurse Icon, which might've made life a little easier but still, the unit was so depleted that I had to leave it. The Reavers legging it was mostly due to Strange's scout move, which I truly could've done nothing about.

Lore-wise there's no doubt that High Magic saved me here. With that being said, I noticed very quickly that my buffs, while nice, were not game-breaking. Don't know if Heavens would've been better: the S6 bolts sure hurt the Necroknights and the Comet hurts the bunker (especially since it's so slow) but Iceshard Blizzard isn't really effective against TK.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed the read :) Feel free to leave a comment!

Author:  dabber [ Thu May 09, 2013 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Second Game up - ETC comp vs WoC

Thanks for the continued report stream.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Lore-wise there's no doubt that High Magic saved me here. With that being said, I noticed very quickly that my buffs, while nice, were not game-breaking.
And that's the problem I have with the lore. Your three reports don't include an enemy where you need buffs to fight in combat. (against the WoC, World Dragon made your situation a lot easier).

You talk about High Magic saving your Archmage here, but why was fleeing to the other archer unit (on the hill) not a good choice? Sure the Sphinx could charge him, but you are hoping to kill the Sphinx with magic/shooting, and the Sphinx doesn't have that many attacks with which to kill your Archmage.

Author:  Jimmy [ Thu May 09, 2013 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

Thanks for the batrep Curu. Although I'm puzzled at Strange's TK list, it looks fun but I think with all of the cannons getting around these days the time of the War/Necrosphinx is sadly behind us as Tomb Kings I think.

Unfortunately it looks great on paper having a Toughness 8 monster running around but realistically it equates to nothing with the current to wound chart.

Anyway you're a lucky man in regards to the Archmage getting pin cushioned and coming out alive!

Thanks for the report and to Strange I'm glad to see another TK player.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 09, 2013 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

@dabber - The thing is that with combined arms no one aspect is dominant enough to be game winning. Instead, multiple needles combine to make huge damage. To this end, high magic fits perfectly. Sure, I could've gone for Shadow and cast Withering instead, but it is very hit or miss: either you get it off, in which case it's great, or you don't and you're gonna have a bad time since your 300+ magic investment gave you nothing.

In general I don't see what enemies I need combat buffs against that I don't have other solutions for. Drain magic is excellent and both tempest and arcane unforging, with proper planning, can be combat winners. In all 3 games high magic played a major role in my winning the game.

As for the Archmage entering the second Archers, it would indeed have been an option. However I wasn't counting on killing it, though in hindsight this might've been a better choice (considering 12 ASF attacks once it hits home). At the time I didn't want it to be able to target my mage at all unless that meant having cavalry flank it. Perhaps I was overreacting, considering my ward and its low volume of attacks (and even lower chance of KB).

Overall, I see the following great threats to my list:
- super-tooled dudes and dudettes: arcane unforging
- hordes: tempest and fiery convocation
- tough and mobile stuff: hand of glory, walk between worlds
- MSU spam: magic missile, hand of glory, walk between worlds

I always have something nice to cast with high magic and regardless of dice split I can achieve something effective. Furthermore it has direct counters to my worst matchups and problems. Neither of these concerns are addressed by Shadow and Heavens only partially covers them. The Shield of Saphery is basically just an added bonus on top of this, whereas the Heavens' attribute is mediocre at best (Smoke and Mirrors is in general a very good attribute but useless with this list).

@Jimmy - I hear you, but I'm not sure how/if TK can play effectively without any Sphinxes what-so-ever. Perhaps triple Necroknights could work, but that's an awefully large footprint! Tk suffer from partly the same problem as we do now, ironically enough, the rare stuff is so good but the 25% limits your options.

Author:  Atlantic [ Fri May 10, 2013 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

I think you might have a bit too much tied up in the shooting phase, and unfortunately a good bit of it is probably not going to be very effective.

It might be wise to experiment with the following.

1. Drop 1 Bolt thrower and fill out your Sisters a bit.

2. If you are running sisters, + 2 bolt throwers, and reavers with bows, I don't think you need the 2 units of archers.

3. What do you think about swapping archers and maybe even the white lions for a big block of spears. The addition of another magic banner is a nice perk. You could give a mage a ward save and hide him in here. The unit would definitely benefit from the lore attribute too.

4. Try the fire phoenix. I think the beauty of the frost phoenix is the help it gives your fragile blocks in combat. You don't really have a whole lot of big block action going on. The fire phoenix might provide way more killing power to your list.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 10, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

Given my recent games Atlantic I don`t see how you`ve arrived at this conclusion. As for not being very effective, the fact remains that our core will never be very effective in and of itself: Archers can take chaff, Spears can provide steadfast, Silver Helms can be bunkers and/or preserve points and Reavers can redirect, harass, hunt mages and war machines and just generally be annoying. However, as far as actually being effective goes, neither of these units will likely be the stars of the game in a lot of cases.

As for the RBTs, I am very, very reluctant to drop one. If anything, I want another one! Unfortunately the rare points aren`t there. In the current metagame with expensive armoured models dominating, they are terrific. Furthermore they provide board control against biggies, which implicitly improves the effectiveness of my bus because they can move as they please. To this end, I think 3 are needed to provide angles that are flexible enough to actually accomplish this: unlike cannons a single RBT is not in itself deadly - multiples are needed to create a real threat. RBTs also double against war machine heavy armies as a defensive proposition: their range and multiple shots can easily silence a machine per turn with a little luck. There`s always a use for RBT, they have remained unchanged for 3 editions now and I`ve fielded them ever since I forst got one. In the last version however (i.e. 8th edition, last book) I found them too expensive. They may still be a slight bit overcosted but the synergy and flexibility they bring to an army such as mine is worth it.

Sisters of Avelorn, by comparison, are very, very hit or miss. They have some matchups where they`ll truly shine and they will have matchups where they will be utterly useless. In the end, I take them for their ranged, flaming attacks. In general, I see 3 armies that can effectively field large regen units that are very hard to deal with by way of grinding: WoC, OnG, VC. Of these, the first two can have significant ranged presence to the point where eliminating the Sisters isn`t really a problem if they really go for it. However, with BS5 I basically only need a couple of survivors to ensure that the regen is removed, allowing the rest of my forces to shoot with deadly effect (this is again a scenario where core archers pay off indirectly). I might consider getting the Lions a flaming banner, but given their I5 and thus striking after the DP, I`m not sure how effective this will be.

Lastly, with regards to firebird vs icebird. These units shouldn`t even both be called Phoenixes, it`s misdirecting. They are so entirely different and don`t even remotely resembler eachother. For my list, I am sure that the Frostheart by far has the greatest impact on the list. Already it has proven to be extremely solid. I don`t expect to run up against armies with a million models, I simply don`t ever see that anymore. If I were playing in a meta where e.g. VC were frequently fielding 3x100 Zombies and ridiculous stuff like that, it`d be a different story.

Author:  rusty [ Fri May 10, 2013 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

Good reports =D>

The WoC player sure had some bad luck, with two miscasts effectively losing him both the mages and warriors, on top of the hellcannon messing up his plans. Off course, your phoenix were positioned to take advantage. Was that planning or merely luck;-)? How do you think the game would have gone without the miscasts?

Echo your thoughts about TK deployment. I think it should be refused flank, compact bubble with maybe one Ssc in the opposite corner if facing slowerr armies. The archers shoot through units anyway.

Author:  Atlantic [ Fri May 10, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

I think we play in very different environments.

I do see stuff like units of 100 skeletons, ethereal all over the place, gigantic blocks of clan rats, etc.

I'm struggling to articulate this, but I think you are a great player and probably make things look better than they are. I just wanted to provide you with some food for thought or suggestions to experiment with.

1. All I meant about the shooting phase is that you have 30 archers, 10 reavers w/ bows, 7 sisters, and 3 bolt throwers. That is alot of shooting. Unfortunately, I think bows are overcosted in our book and don't necessarily do a whole lot. I understand the role they play in your list, but is it a necessary role? Aren't the 3 units of reavers probably enough to kill chaff (either w/ bows or in combat)?

2. You don't have a whole lot to deal with ethereal. I understand you don't see much of it, but it might hurt when you do. At this point sisters and magic missiles are probably the go to for that. It would be a shame to have the ice phoenix tied up in combat with a unit of them.

3. I think the fire phoenix *might* be extremely useful in that it can clear chaff and ethereal by flying over it. It also can really put the hurt on ranked units.

4. Having only two wounds on the bolt throwers makes them extremely fragile. I think having some in a list is a good idea, but is 3 the magic number? It might be.

5. I think the sisters are pretty cool. I'm not running them, but I can see their value. Higher BS, Higher Str, magic, flaming, etc. What do you think of maybe running 1 block of 10 or 2 blocks of 5?

6. What do you think of your white lions? I saw them in a tournament this past weekend and they stunk it up. Other than steadfast they just aren't worth it. They are much more like hammerers now, but I"m not sure about the point cost difference. Spells like curse of anraheir or blizzard will nerf them pretty good.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 10, 2013 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

@rusty - true, miscasting twice was unlucky. However, his magic couldn't really hurt me and the fact that he got IF soulblight through meant I had to waste the DP champ tying up his BSB to ensure the Hellcannon kill. Had this not happened, I might not have had to receive the chariot charge (which tied me up for another turn as well). Besides, the Warriors were chanceless against the Phoenix: they hit on 4's, wound on 6's and I have 6+/5++ or 6+/4++. They would all have died in 2-3 combat turns, worst case. My Phoenix would've rearcharged regardless. With 5 WS6 S6 attacks and thunderstomp the unit cannot win that fight, barring insane luck. I could've even front-charged him, my shooting had taken off quite a few already. I think an event which shaped the game way more was his Hellcannon failing its rampage test early on.

@Atlantic - agreed, we likely see very different opponents. I see OnG, Empire, Skaven and VC as the only armies that can reliably and effectively field huge units with some degree of success. OnG and Empire are terrible matchups regardless of what they field, assuming it's a competent player and list. Skaven shouldn't be that hard actually, given the banner, but huge units can of course ruin my day. I think the key here is to let magic do its thing and try and carve a path so that the bus can gain some points and not end up grinding 2-4 point units. VC is pretty much the same as Skaven, with the notable exception that stacking combat resolution in the 20's and up is actually possible, at which point withering down a big unit isn't necessarily that hard. With all of these matchups, the only "answer" is to completely revise the way the list is designed. I don't want to do this, so any "tailoring" is based upon making the matchup easier for me, as opposed to improving my chances for a 20-0.

I enjoy your food for thought, always good to get fresh input ;) Onto your points:
1. Reavers are not meant to kill chaff. They have bows so that they can provide some degree of anti-chaff at range, as well as threatening lone mages and removing the odd charmed shield. Their primary role is to harass, block, redirect and hunt war machines (though the latter is usually very hard against competent players). My Archers usually have their hands full. I agree that bows don't do a whole lot, but neither do spears. As such, what I'm left with for shooting that is actually an investment per se (i.e. something I have to spend points at in favour of something else) is found in the rare section. The Sisters are for regen-removal and the RBT are board control, first and foremost. I consider the core roles I currently have crucial to this army and wouldn't change them for spears unless I did something with the rest of the list as well (i.e. go for a cavstar).

2. This I must simply disagree with. There are 2 characters with magic weapons, a unit champ with a magic weapon, a magical flying creature, magical ranged archers and a signature magic missile as well as 3 direct damage spells available to me. I don't think I'm anywhere close to having a problem dealing with ethereals. Which models would you think I'm struggling with?

3. As far as I know the Fire Phoenix's fly-over damage is mundane at the moment, at least RAW. A faq is required for sure. Anyways, the Fire Phoenix plays an entirely different role and couldn't ever hope to come close to fulfilling the role of a Frostheart. Again, if I were to include this the entire army would have to be different.

4. Most people don't seem to value them enough to bother killing them. Additionally, they are frequently deployed quite a bit off, which means a significant investment is required to take them down. Furthermore, not many units can win a chaff-war vs Reavers so if need be I can protect them very effectively against weak stuff.

5. I think a block of 10 is ok, 2x5 is better. The thing is that Sisters are very powerful against regen stuff, enabling the rest of your forces to really put on the hurt. They are also great against units in buildings. Where they fail hard is movement, without a musician it's very, very hard to have them play as flexibly as you might've preferred. Personally I think that 3x3 is a perfect position for them, but this creates an extremely juicy shot for a Hellcannon, for example.

6. Lions are reliable. Stubborn is good like that. However, they don't tend to do a whole lot. I have been considering their role but at the moment there's nothing else I'd rather have. At the end of the day, being able to bring 10 S6 attacks to bear at an 80mm frontage is powerful and your enemies have to adapt. I think that they haven't seen meaningful action thus far because my opponents have played smart against them, perhaps a bit too cautious, even.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 10, 2013 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

Taking a step back from all the cavalry talk lately, I want to discuss an idea that I got based off of talks about running a hero with Reaver Bow and an Archmage with the lore of beasts (savage beasts gives the reaver bow S8). Originally, I said that I think High Elves can play 4 different armies. There's only one of these I haven't been theorizing about in this thread: the infantry heavy one. As such, here goes:

Archmage lvl 4 Lore of Beasts Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury = 300
Loremaster Dispel Scroll, Armour of Silvered Steel = 300
BSB Sea Helm with Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength = 170
Characters: 770

15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
5 Reavers, Bows & Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows & Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Musician = 90
Core: 600

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon = 470
30 Phoenix Guard, Full Command and Razor Standard = 525

2 Repeaters = 140

Army total: 2505

Interesting concept, very different from many other lists. Core and rare are of course down to preference and discussion ;)

Author:  Atlantic [ Sat May 11, 2013 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK

1. I just meant that you have plenty of anti-chaff tools. I don't think you need the archers in addition to that. As far as the archers v spears debate goes, I lean toward spears, because of the magic banner and always strikes first. It seems like GW seems to value an elf at ~7 points sans equipment. The spears get a 5+ for 2 points. Archers get a bow for 3.

I'm a bit spoiled by my peasant bowmen. For 6 points per guy you get the same bow and a fence to hide behind. For 5 points you can give the unit flaming attacks. BS is 1 lower, but in a straight shoot out they will win against Helf archers most of the time.

2. Yeah you are right. Must have been on crack last night.

3. I re-read that today. It does look like it is mundane. Stupid if you ask me, but hopefully a faq will make it magical!

4. I was able to kill 1 per turn with peasant bowmen the other day. 210 points just seems like a big investment for 3 - 2 wound models that can't move. That is almost enough for another phoenix!

5. If I were to run sisters I think I would go 2 x 5. They are just so darn expensive!

6. What if you swapped the White Lions for Dragon Princes? Just a small unit.

As far as your infantry heavy list goes. I think it looks pretty good!

I have a few questions and comments though.

1. Why the Sea Helm? A noble is cheaper. Are you wanting to take advantage of Naval Discipline? I'm not sure Naval Discipline is that good. It follows the rules for a combat reform and you do it after the enemy is b2b. That means you can't move models out of base contact so if he is 5 wide and you are 10 wide, you are stuck 7 wide.

2. I saw the Loremaster in action the other day. Granted, very small sample size, but he kind've sucked. If you are trying to guarantee Savage Beast of Horros on your level 4. Take a level 2 mage (cheaper) and roll his spells first. That will help some.

3. If the Lions stink it up for you, I think you could get ~15 Dragon Princes with the same banner for close to what you are paying for those guys.

4. From a fluff perspective it's kind've a bummer to have all those phoenix guard and no phoenix to go along with them.

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