Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:09 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1630 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:34 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I`m sorry, too much to do these days to do proper reports :/ I`m already behind on some work stuff, some organizing stuff with regards to my club, the Powerplay article and sleep. I think the pictures give a pretty clear picture of the main development. Do you have anything in particular you find hard to follow?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 7:07 am
Posts: 51
Location: Perth, Australia
Curu Olannon wrote:
Specific pushlist suggestion:

Quote:
Star Dragon - 598
Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, Merwyrm Shield, Warrior Bane = 145
High Mage Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 150
High Mage Level 2, Scepter of Stability = 135
Heroes = 430

5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 125
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 125
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 148
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
Core = 638

28 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Autoinclude = 444

Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Rare = 290

Army Total = 2400


Star Dragon - 598
Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, Merwyrm Shield, Warrior Bane = 145
High Mage Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 150
High Mage Level 2, Scroll of Shielding = 135
Heroes = 430

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 355
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows = 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
Core = 600

27 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Autoinclude = 431

Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50
Rare = 340

I would at least consider the scroll of shielding over the scepter of stability. The scroll protects your dragon against irresistible force, where as the scepter cannot. Giving your dragon a 4++ ward against spells like banishment, searing doom, gateway etc can be potentially game saving and the benefit doubles when used in conjunction with apotheosis.

Running the 15 Helms at min core and dropping one White Lion gets you a second Great Eagle, whilst still letting you have one drop less to give you a better chance at getting first turn. I don't see the concept of running 3 units of 5 Helms being a successful one, but 15 Helms is a significant threat against medium strength units and gives you ranks when combo charged with a frostie or dragon.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:33 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Thanks for your input, will keep it in mind :) I can definitely see the value of Shielding as well as getting a second Eagle. I think Helms still need to be darts, getting tied up by a challenge is just so annoying. Alternatively the Reavers could have champs. I`ll figure something out ;)

New concept list coming up in just a moment!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:01 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Curu Olannon wrote:
I`m sorry, too much to do these days to do proper reports :/ I`m already behind on some work stuff, some organizing stuff with regards to my club, the Powerplay article and sleep. I think the pictures give a pretty clear picture of the main development. Do you have anything in particular you find hard to follow?


No need to apologise - it's your blog and your batreps which you put up religiously!

It's not that there's anything in particular which I don't follow but the thing as a whole - it'll all be clear as day to you as you played it, but for us we can't see what cast/failed, where units were taking casualties etc, and even if we can, the narrative flow is much less gentle with only photos and no text (even diagrams only are clearer on that front, though having dabbled with bat reps I know they take longer, so they're probably no use to your purposes).

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:11 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Ferny - I really wish I`d have the time to do them properly, but there are so many things I have to divide my time between. As for the photos, I`m trying to show the big picture because I think most of what I need to learn now is how to use my list strategically. The last 2 TK reports for example show two very different ways of attacking the same problem, one that is very flawed and one that worked out quite well. The Empire game is largely the same: There was very little interesting going on here apart from what the pictures tell. My aim for the game was to crash into demis T4-T6 somewhere with bus + prince + frost, clearing the cannon in the opposite corner and hopefully neutralizing some of his other stuff along the way. Why wait so long? I have to neutralize that cannon for the Prince to be safe. That is also why the Helms swept so wide. The main mistakes have been included in the evaluation.

---

A popular list that has been doing well for a long time now is the Lifebus with White Lions. Here`s my take on it:

Quote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm = 268
Life Archmage L4, Barded Steed, Obsidian Lodestone, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 315
Lords = 583

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Star Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour = 170

17 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 421
5 Reavers, bows, champion = 95
5 Reavers, bows = 85
Core = 601

28 White Lions, FC, BOTWD = 444

Frostheart Phoenix = 240
3x RBT = 210
Rare = 450

Army total = 2248


I`m unsure of the best use of the remaining points. Alternatives include an extra RBT and an Eagle, a secondary Noble and a secondary mage. Will have to give it some thought. What do you think? ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:44 am
Posts: 27
Hi Curu,

With regard to the Lifebus, I think it is an interesting list (and fluff-wise a real contrast to the Deathtrain! :D ). I do have a couple of questions:

1. Do you see the bus and the WL operating closely (increasing combat potential but restricting bus mobility) or as two fairly independent units (allowing the bus more flexibility but possibly seeing WL out of buff/BSB/Ld bubble)?

2. How would you prioritise your spell selection with Life? What sort of strategy are you aiming for - buffing your troops or going all out for Dwellers? (I may have gotten the wrong impression, but I don't see you as the "Chuck all my dice at Dwellers and hope they die before I blow up" type of player! :) ).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:01 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Heya, I haven`t played the list yet so right off the bat it`s kind of hard to say. My experience thus far with bus + infantry is that they usually need to combine to work well. See my last tournament for examples on this. The long story short is that the cavalry usually runs wide with the infantry closer to the center to achieve this.

Spell selection is totally dependent on opponent. No doubt Dwellers is good vs lots of armies out there, but I can easily see Flesh to Stone being more important in several matchups for example. I think the main weakness of Life is that you usually want 5-6 spells, chosen, and even an L4 can "only" have 4. That is why I`m contemplating how best to spend the remaining points. It´s a real dilemma. In the end I don`t know if I`ll ever get to play it, so many lists I want to try out :D

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Lifebus looks like a fun concept but I think in the end the Deathtrain is a better all-around list. I tend to find (as you've rightly said) that spell selection with Life magic can be problematic depending on rolls and at some point in a tournament it isn't going to go your way. This can be mitigated somewhat with BotWD replacing Throne, at least in terms of miscast protection, but this then means he has to be in the WL and not in the Helms and in that situation you get less potential benefit from Earthblood and Lifebloom.

We have a quandry therefore in that the ideal addition to such a list would likely be a lvl.2 Life mage to better ensure your lvl.4s spell selection. This is a problem for me in 2 ways though, namely that this is pretty much a waste of points as you are spending points to get the 'right' spells on the lvl.4 meaning the lvl.2 is unlikely to cast as much. This results in low points/usage efficiency. In addition I think this list really needs the extra board control that those points you have remaining could be spent on (RBT & eagle).

Conclusion: at least for me the Lifebus loses out when compared to the Deathtrain you've been running or a similar list built around Death or another lore. Whilst I'm sure this list can work I would stick with what you have.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:14 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The Deathtrain might be stronger overall, but it`s more one-dimensional. Thus, it has stronger counters and when matchups get bad, they are really bad. The Lifebus, by comparison, manages to squeeze in another element in the shape of White Lions, though it costs in the character and support departments.

My thought behind taking an L2 was not to take another Life mage, but rather to take a secondary lore to help out with the areas where Life is lacking. The problem is that this guy won`t have any natural place to go, sticking him in the bus makes it awefully important which is not a good thing seeing as there`s no BOTWD there. It could be that Lions would be ok without BOTWD, but sticking it on the BSB most definitely calls for another Noble. Not sure I want to go there.

My motivation for at least trying to make such a list is that I have seen several players do well with it and/or advocate such a setup. Examples include Furion`s ventures last year, Sweden`s ETC list this year and a club mate with lots of wacky, though usually powerful, ideas for list building. Again though I`m not sure I`ll ever get to playing it.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:28 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
Could you switch the AM to the Lions (you still have 24" range on Flesh and Regrowth) and put the mage in the bus Curu? Life seems even better than High for keeping such a foot mage alive but what would you consider minimum kit for this? I'm considering Life myself and am wondering what I can get away with.

As for spell selection I guess you want Dwellers when you're facing a Deathstar but also maybe to draw dice generally? Is not rolling this (or Flesh in some matchups I guess) catastrophic?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:06 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The problem with putting the mage with the Lions is survivability. Also, it would lose the bus its 4++ vs magic, unless I took another character solely to get the Lodestone. Overall I find it to just be a catch22 situation. I am having a hard time understanding how these lists are doing so well. Will have to think on the matter a bit more I believe before I can settle on a build I believe in.

For reference, Sweden`s list from this year`s ETC:

Quote:
Prince on Barded Elven Steed: General; Heavy Armour; Shield, Giant Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawn Stone, 271
Archmage on Elven Steed: Level 4, Lore Of Life, Elven Steed, Crown of Command, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 310
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, 172
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Dragon Armour, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, 145

3x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: 3x 80
16 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 398

29 White Lions of Chrace: FCG, Gleaming Pendant, 412

Frostheart Phoenix: 240
3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 3x 70
Total army cost: 2398


Furion`s list from last year:

Quote:
1 Prince on Barded Steed@ 271.0 Pts
General; Heavy Armour; Shield;
Giant Blade
Dawnstone
Dragonhelm

1 Archmage on Steed @ 310.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Life
Dispel Scroll
Obsidian Lodestone

1 Noble on Barded Steed @ 170.0 Pts
Dragon Armour; Battle Standard;
Enchanted Shield
Star Lance
The Other Trickster's Shard

5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap) @ 85.0 Pts
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician @ 125.0 Pts
12 Silver Helms, Shields, FCG @ 306.0 Pts

25 White Lions, FCG, Banner of Worlds Drag @ 405.0 Pts
1 Tiranoc Chariot @ 70.0 Pts

1 Frostheart Phoenix @ 240.0 Pts
1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower @ 4x70.0 Pts

Models in Army: 65
Total Army Cost: 2397.0


Furion went for the character-light approach with more support whereas the Swedish list (meant for team play) took another Noble to further flest out the bus. Note however that the Swedish list has BOTWD on the bus, not the Lions.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
More Northern Warlords practice for my clubmates. Today I faced the following list:

Quote:
Daemons of Chaos
Metal Herald of Tzeentch: Lvl 2, 125
Metal Herald of Tzeentch: Lvl 2, 125
The Blue Scribes: 81

13 Pink Horrors: Standard, 199
13 Pink Horrors: FCG, 199
14 Pink Horrors: FCG, 212

6 Beasts of Nurgle: 360
6 Beasts of Nurgle: 360
5 Chaos Furies: Mark of Tzeenth, 70
2 Nurglings: 80

3 Fiends of Slaanesh: 195
3 Flamers of Tzeentch: 120
Skullcannon of Khorne: 135
Skullcannon of Khorne: 135
2396 points


Quite different from what I usually play. My goal for this game was to estimate roughly how well my army performs against ETC Daemons for our team tournament. Report will come but I`m fairly sure I won`t have time before the weekend. I promise lots of nail-biting action and game-breaking moments though, from 6-dicing crucial spells to Reign of Chaos to the imbalanced unit that is the Beasts of Chaos ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:09 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Small update on the Cavbus PG list. I really hope I can develop this more as I feel it`s a unique build that has evolved slowly over dozens of games. I am anxious to see how this plays ingame, I have a feeling High Magic can really be worth it: WBW on PG is insane when combined with a Frostheart and cavbus. I am a little worried with the BSB in the front rank but short of ditching the Frostheart, RBTs or a character there really is nothing to do about this. I can deploy 4 wide if I anticipate that the PG will bring the static, will be important to keep in mind (4 wide means the Helms go 5 deep, 10" long is a lot).

Cavbus PG v2.1 wrote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Champion, Bows = 95
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 405
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 905

Army Total = 2399


Report vs DoC will be up tomorrow :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:48 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
I may have missed this Curu but did you consider mounting the Beasts mage for protection?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:07 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Yes, I have. The purpose of the Beasts mage is two-fold: One, to bring the scroll. Second, to provide the PG 2++ vs magic. Yes, with a high magic spell 3++ is what you`ll get and this will happen 90% of the time, but with a 2++ I don`t even have to care about a Fate of Bjuna on the Archmage. Furthermore I`m trying to mitigate the risk here by having him in the PG rather than with the bus, e.g. Dwellers. True, he`ll often die but when I played the L1 Heavens alongside the Loremaster this didn`t usually pose a big problem. Sure I would like to bump him back to the second rank but as long as I want the Frostheart (which I do) the points simply aren`t there.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:33 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
It's good to have the scroll on the weaker mage I think, though I'd worry a little about it dying too soon here. I was considering a Life mage in infantry and was leaning towards naked for Earthblood and Lifebloom, only giving up 80pts if he went down, you can redirect with him if you have to for example. My alternative was a fully kitted lvl2 for 165 which was too risky for me. I guess there's a sweet spot somewhere between.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:59 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Yes, as I said I played with the Heavens guy extensively with the Loremaster setup and didn`t find his inherent squishyness to be an issue actually. The scroll is almost always needed before he`s in danger, worst case I get charged and spend the scroll the same turn as he charges me. If it proves to be a problem I`ll have to look for alternative solutions. Please note however that taking the scroll on the L4 is impossible without giving up another item - his magical item allowance is maxed and the Power Stone is cheaper by 5 points.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:00 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Another game vs DoC, this time a nasty variant under Northern Warlords comp.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Daemons of Chaos (NW comp) .::.

My list:
Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed, Ironcurse Icon = 135
Heroes = 596, Characters = 1194

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Ellyrian Reavers = 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion = 90
Core = 653

3x1 Repeater Bolt Thrower = 210
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
2x1 Great Eagle = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2397


His list:
Quote:
Metal Herald of Tzeentch: Lvl 2, 125
Metal Herald of Tzeentch: Lvl 2, 125
The Blue Scribes: 81

13 Pink Horrors: Standard, 199
13 Pink Horrors: FCG, 199
14 Pink Horrors: FCG, 212

6 Beasts of Nurgle: 360
6 Beasts of Nurgle: 360
5 Chaos Furies: Mark of Tzeenth, 70
2 Nurglings: 80
3 Fiends of Slaanesh: 195

3 Flamers of Tzeentch: 120
Skullcannon of Khorne: 135
Skullcannon of Khorne: 135
2396 points


// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Going into this game I was looking to assess how the Star Dragon works against DoC. Though this is a far cry from what`s allowed under ETC restrictions, they`re the same units and I was hoping I could extrapolate how this matchup fares under ETC play.

Dobbel Skullcannon and double large Beasts are problematic. The best thing to do here is divide and conquer. To achieve this, keeping the chaff alive is essential while denying him his chaff.

NW uses weird deployment, we rolled off and my opponent won, choosing a Battle for the Pass variant. This is hard to play against because he has so much space to back into with Skullcannons and Horrors, making it hard for my flyers to break through and get to his core. I would have to weigh a flank heavily and hope the bus could thunder up fast, creating space for the flyers to follow through. I placed the RBTs on the opposite flank pretty far ahead, giving him a juicy target for distraction which could prove disastrous, if he`d go for it.

Magic: I got Apotheosis, Walk, Soul Quench, Drain. He got Transmutation of Lead, Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades and Final Transmutation. Horrors had missiles, Glean and Gateway.

Image

Despite him having +1, I managed to grab first turn.

// HE T1 //

Bus marched up max, Dragon followed cautiously to remain in cover. Reavers moved to intercept Nurglings which had scouted near my RBTs. Magic saw IF WBW on the Dragon. I placed it in a position where only 1 cannon could see it if he moved out. Shooting saw me target Furies, I knew these could end up being vital but the RBTs only managed to kill 3 of the 5 needed to wipe them off. 2 is just as useful as 5 in this game.

Image

// DoC T1 //

Central Beasts moved close to the water. Fiends blocked bus, Furies moved to cover, Eastern Beasts moved up. Nurglings charged Reavers. Magic saw IF Gateway on the Dragon, but S4 and few hits meant no wounds, luckily. Cannon put 2W on the Dragon but failed to hurt the Prince. The other cannon misfired and blew up.

Image

// HE T2 //

Remember that I said the deep deployment being an issue? If I sent the Dragon up yet again now I would have to wither another turn of shooting before I could engage anything important. Instead I decided to throw it into the central Beasts. The plan was to lock them until the bus could help out. Chaff moved up, Frostheart came. Magic saw me fail to cast Walk and he dispelled Apotheosis. Shooting saw RBTs target Eastern Beasts in lack of proper targets.

In combat the Dragon was challenged out and the Beasts proved how balanced they are as my 10 S7 attacks caused 0 wounds. Bus killed Fiends and reformed.

Image

// DoC T2 //

Furies blocked bus. I had made a mistake here as they were barely in range and if I had taken the time this could`ve been avoided. Eastern Beasts reformed. Skullcannon moved to shoot the Phoenix. Magic saw a big cast of Final Transformation target my Helms (29 casting value). I took a long time to decide as I had 7DD but in the end decided to scroll. He would basically get one more attempt before I could hit the Beasts as he had no more diverters with the Furies soon to be dead, so I figured I could get lucky and dispel the next or he could get IF, in which case a scroll wouldn`t matter anyway. 29 is very hard to stop, even with 7DD. Shooting put a few wounds on the Frostheart. In combat I managed a wound for a wound with the Prince I believe.

Image

// HE T3 //

Bus into Furies. Reavers into Blue Scribes. Eagle blocked Eastern Beasts, other Eagle moved up. Magic saw Apotheosis stopped, Frostheart was WBW`d next to the Beasts combat. Shooting didn`t do much, still tried to get some Beasts. In combat the Reavers dispatched Blue Scribes and the Furies were killed. I reformed, ready to help the Dragon out. Reavers pursued off table.

Image

// DoC T3 //

Eastern Beasts into Eagle. Magic saw IF Final Trans hit the bus. My BSB died along with a few Helms. The Skullcannon followed up with a shot that hit 4 or 5. My other Noble failed his Look out, Sir! and died as well, the 5++ failing to save him. A few Helms went with him. Disastrous. Combat saw the Prince die but the Dragon dealt a couple of wounds as well, so no break test for me, luckily.

Image

// HE T4 //

The remaining Helms with 2 mages went into the Beasts with the Frostheart. They provide +1CR through banner and he can`t hit me back with much. Besides, mages were outside of combat and with the Frosty in the mix, he`d be look at 2+ armour saves. Second Eagle blocked Beasts. Magic saw Apotheosis go through, healing the Dragon up to full wounds. Shooting from here on out did next to nothing.

In combat the Beasts were beaten, but they didn`t disappear. This was important as I wanted to be locked, safe from Skullcannon madness, during his T4.

Image

// DoC T4 //

Beasts into blocking Eagle. Flamers move after Reavers. Magic, can`t remember, but nothing important as everything was in combat. Combat saw the Beasts finally perish. I had 4 choices: Reform vs new Beasts to charge. Reform vs Flamers to charge (they are stubborn in woods), move up to threaten skullcannon or move back to hopefully survive. With 5 wounds left on the Dragon, it would be risky either way. I decided for the central beasts since I could combo them with the Frostheart.

Image

// HE T5 //

Flyers into Beasts. Magic sees Apotheosis go through as he stopped WBW on the bus to get the change to shoot and magic them. Dragon went up to 7W again.

In combat the Beasts rolled no less than 4 poisoned hits and an additional 2W for the Dragon. I saved 3, so the Dragon was down to 4W. The frostheart didn`t take any wounds and I dealt 3W back so he lost by 1 but passed his daemonic unbreakability test.

Image

After this he set up the Skullcannon for a counter-charge T6. I managed another Apotheosis on the Dragon getting it back up to 6 and in the final turn of the game the Skullcannon killed the Frostheart (I had set up a lone Reaver to block it from charging the Frost with an overrun into the SD). His magic + shooting failed to get the Helms or the Mages and the RBTs had 2 alive at the end as well.

Tallying up the points with bonuses for breaking etc due to NW we were within 100 points of eachother, a 10-10 draw.

// Evaluation //

With the way deployment went and me getting first turn, this was all but my game to win. Where did I go wrong? It`s rare to be able to spot mistakes as clearly as this game. My mistake here was the supporting Reavers` on the Western flank T2 move. Consider the following:

Image

Image

The first shows my T2, including the bus having reformed after beating the Fiends. The second show his T2, including the Furies blocking. The second photo shows the position of the Reavers a lot better: you can see that the bus cannot angle any more because if they do, the Reavers prevent them from hitting the Beasts. The mistake here was that I didn`t measure the Furies` max distance. If I had, I could`ve put the Reavers 2 inches further behind. This would allow me to angle the Helms so that a charge on the central Beasts would be unblockable for the Furies. This would see the Beasts perish a lot sooner and I would have free reign (and probably the bus alive as there would be nothing to cast FT on while in combat) to go wherever I wanted to from the middle.

So, measure the chaff and plan accordingly. I simply didn`t consider the Furies having enough range to block me, but they barely did so and it would be easy to see if I had been aware of it.

Double Skullcannon didn`t prove to be a big problem as one blew up fairly quickly. I can easily see how 2 of them alive is a serious issue though, but with the said I was mostly in combat from T2 on. Double 6-big Beasts on the other hand is the most retarded unit in Warhammer. For less than 400 points you basically get a roadblock that makes a Steam Tank look like paper. The only way to beat this unit significantly is static combat resolution (for High Elves) and this is an important lesson: 4 can largely perform the same role as 6 vs the Dragon so knowing the importance of getting the bus in is crucial.

In the end I believe that an army like this under ETC restrictions is +1 in my favour. With a GUO it`s likely 0 as he can zone the Dragon and/or threaten with Purple Sun. I`ll hopefully get a game vs ETC Daemons as well before the team tournament though, but this game taught me largely what I needed to know about the matchup.

Oh and 6x Tzeentch channelling? Insane...

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:38 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
I considered taking Calaingor's Stave and sticking the scroll on a support mage but in the build I'm looking at, I don't have the points. Current compromise is to go 5++, Scroll, Fencer's Blades. Lvl4 is on Life so Lifebloom, buff-spam and Curse of Anraheir from Sisters may make it workable.

I agree double cannon and Beasts are the main issue here Curu. Your opponent seemed to get a little lucky blowing the bus up but as you say, he probably shouldn't have got the chance. If the Beasts didn't have the Ward, Flaming attacks would be an answer here I guess. BFTP is a pain but you did roll first turn.

Under the ETC one cannon comp it's got to be better.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:28 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I think the main problem with a single mage is that you can`t use the scroll if you`ve failed to dispel a spell in the same phase. This is very risky.

Blowing the bus up - the biggest weakness of the bus is stuff like Final Transmutation and, of course, Dwellers. Losing the BSB was unfortunate, but it will often happen when I`m targeted by these spells. I was equally lucky to get IF WBW and Apotheosis through so many times, not to mention the 2nd cannon blowing itself up. It`s easy to be biased in the view of how the dice went. In this game, I don`t think any of us were particularly favoured by the dice gods. Flaming attacks certainly helps against Beasts, but in a HE list they are hard to actually get, unless you go for shooting with Sisters (and even then it`s unpredictable).

I still have a lot of ground to cover to learn how this list plays against other strong lísts. I`m finding that some patterns generally hold true though that I`m able to re-use across multiple battles against very different foes. I think it is only now that I realize how this army should be played in many situations to capitalize on its strengths. By comparison, my old SD list from our 7th book played completely differently and my infantry experiments have more games behind them. In a sense, I`m re-learning how to Dragonize this game and I`m finding the approach very interesting and rewarding.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:48 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
While I`m reviewing some of my currently untested concept lists I thought I`d refine the Star Coven as well.

Reaver Bunkers Star Coven wrote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Sceptre of Stability, Ironcurse Icon - 150
Mage L1 Light on Steed, Ring of Fury - 120
Heroes/Characters: 597/1195

10 Reavers, bows = 170
10 Reavers, bows = 170
10 Reavers, bows = 170
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 125
Core: 635

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & Rare: 570

Army Total: 2400


The list is extremely streamlined now. The only thing I`m not sure about is the Ring of Fury. In a sense I suppose it is largely wasted. The problem however is that there aren`t really a lot of other good candidates for the potentially 25 freed points. An option is to ditch the Scroll of Shielding to upgrade the last mage to L2. Another option is Gem of Sunfire, but I feel this is very marginal as the only spell that benefits from this is Shem`s Burning Gaze. True, you can declare its use after rolling amount of hits, but I still think it`s very marginal for 20 points. This list is my number 1 on "test stuff out" after I`ve played BSK (team tournament) in November.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:54 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
Say a list demands you have the scroll on the lvl4 Curu. Would you consider attempting a less crucial dispel with a support caster?

Yeah I feel that the differences between how current book plays and how the old one did are marked. Few players are playing anything close to what they used to.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:58 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
In theory, I might. In practice though, it becomes an extremely tough call to make. If it`s so marginal in the first place, perhaps you don`t even want to dispel it? If you do have a support caster such as Sisters it could be ok I suppose but it all boils down to specifics. After all, DE get by with a single L4 without a problem. I`m just wary of doing this, but perhaps in reality the situation rarely occurs.

The old book was just a totally different beast. Banner of Sorcery and Seerstaff gave us so many options to build the army around. Furthermore, true ASF made our elites into true blenders. The old book was more one-dimensional though and given the current meta I think the new book is more interesting, though the old book had some builds that would be terribly strong now.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:34 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
New concept list, inspired by Furion`s bowline from our last book:

Quote:
Anointed of Asuryan, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone = 300
Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Ironcurse Icon = 270
Lords = 570

Noble BSB, Heavy Armour, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 151
Mage, Level 2, High, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 170
Heroes = 321

30 Archers, Full Command = 330
5 Reavers, Bows & Champion = 95
5 Reavers, Bows & Champion = 95
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 600

24 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 435

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
13 Sisters of Avelorn = 182
Rare = 462

Army total = 2388


I anticipate ETC to lift restrictions for Book of Hoeth with Shadow. If this happens, switching to BoH on the L4 is easy here. I believe this list has significant ranged presence and a counter-charge element that few can stand up to. The characters can go in Archers (typically), Sisters (if opponent only has magical ranged damage) or PG (if I need 2++ vs magical attacks here, e.g. vs DoC). Smoke and Mirrors can confuse people a lot since all characters are infantry.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:24 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Curu Olannon wrote:
New concept list, inspired by Furion`s bowline from our last book:

Quote:
Anointed of Asuryan, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone = 300
Archmage, Level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Ironcurse Icon = 270
Lords = 570

Noble BSB, Heavy Armour, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 151
Mage, Level 2, High, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 170
Heroes = 321

30 Archers, Full Command = 330
5 Reavers, Bows & Champion = 95
5 Reavers, Bows & Champion = 95
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 600

24 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard = 435

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
13 Sisters of Avelorn = 182
Rare = 462

Army total = 2388


I anticipate ETC to lift restrictions for Book of Hoeth with Shadow. If this happens, switching to BoH on the L4 is easy here. I believe this list has significant ranged presence and a counter-charge element that few can stand up to. The characters can go in Archers (typically), Sisters (if opponent only has magical ranged damage) or PG (if I need 2++ vs magical attacks here, e.g. vs DoC). Smoke and Mirrors can confuse people a lot since all characters are infantry.


I don't get what you see in this list, or at any rate, I don't see it as being optimised.

Here's the goodies I see:
1. Yes you've got plenty of shooting. It includes flaming, magical, mundane S3 and S4 AP. And of course shadow for -D3T FTW and the threat of mindrazor on, to be honest, any of the infantry - even the sisters.
2. PG with razor, decent size, can't go wrong. Backed up by High mage (an option at least).
3. Lv4+Lv2+BSB - fairly standard, I like it.
4. 3x redirects with core reavers

Here's what I don't get:
1. Annointed. What does he add to a shooty list? He doesn't give Ld10 (and there's no option for the +1Ld banner either). He doesn't kick as hard as the Prince. His 6++ bonus doesn't help PG and, while you have a high mage, presumably you'd be focussing on the Lv4, so you're not maximising the stacking. Mr2 works nice with PG, but you can get it way cheaper with a hero level character. Yes he's super tanky. Yes he has S7 (just 3ASF A though). So what, what does that bring. He doesn't push characters onto the 2nd rank unless you go for an odd formation. If you were going down this route, wouldn't a Prince be better? Or - and I appreciate you probably don't have access to SC - Alith Anar.
2. Foot BSB with BotWD. How will he stay alive? Where will he go? And why do you want BotWD in this list? Miscast protection? Death snipes? MMs/DD? PG soak it up, its a heavy investment for archers...this has some of the key features of a list which can manage without.
3. Shooting list with no Reaver/PoS? Why's that? On BSB its super utility. On handmaiden it's deadly.
4. This is just the sort of list where a handmaiden would, I think, work. She'd also be great for point 3.
5. Side-note, but this list looks similar to a light council build, but without the light council! I don't see the replacements doing the same job as well, but I can't see what job they're meant to do instead?
6. Minor point, but what's your thinking on reaver kit? Why champs? Is it explicitly for congas? Other than that I don't see them as anything other than free points in this build (challenge fodder doesn't help here, right?). Why champs over musicians?

That's it for now - I'd love to hear your reasoning behind your choices here cos I really don't see it. I also don't really see how you've made the link from Furion's bowline, which for a start had two magical bows (and not the ten-a-penny sisters ones)...

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:17 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Anointed. MR2 is super effective, ITP is super nice, 6++ allows for example the high mage to go in the unit without me fearing death snipes all of a sudden: with just a single spell through (which he is supposed to do if he`s in this unit) he`ll have a 3++ vs magic. Furthermore the only way to replicate this with a Prince is Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm and Obsidian Amulet, which isn`t even close in terms of defense: Prince only has 4++ vs magic (and that`s if you take Dragon Armour) which means you`re relying on high magic buffs to keep him safe from death snipes. Furthermore his ward is conditional and his armour save is way inferior to the Anointed`s. All this for +1LD, +1A and the loss of ITP and secondary character protection. If your build is centered around High Magic instead of Shadow I can see this working, but that is more of a PG-star centric list (which I might consider as well).

BSB. BOTWD. The banner is stupidly good. BSB is not meant to be in combat, thus he will survive by staying whereever an enemy does not want to engage. I anticipate he`ll usually go with Archers. Sisters if the opponent doesn`t have mundane ranged threats. Think about this guy`s utility vs Wood Elves, anything with Death, miscast protection, Warriors (Hellcannon), Daemons. The banner is just so good.

The lack of Reaver Bow and Potion of Strength is admittedly a problem. Finding the points however is no easy task. At 2500 I could probably justify including a Handmaiden to go with the Sisters, but at 2400 where will I get the points from? I have to make some serious sacrifices here and I don`t think it`s that significant. What would you replace?

Light Council is a completely different cup of tea. With the current ETC Restrictions on Book/Banner/Frostheart 0-1 I think it`s very hard to build the Coven strong enough with a traditional setup. I have some ideas for a coven as well but they are completely different to this list. Light doesn`t synergize nearly as well with PG as Shadow does. Furthermore Light does not make Archers useful. Miasma and Withering does. So yes, they share certain similarities but I think they are largely superficial.

Reavers Champion for conga-threatening. Simply the best way to fill core, in my opinion. More Archers are wasted and having 3 units of Reavers is nice since I couldn`t afford any Eagles here. I never take musicians on Reavers as I consider them too situational to be worth their points. Champions on the other hand always has their uses. Congacharging and auto-holding an enemy is something most people don`t expect for example. Flank-charging and auto-winning combat is even better.

Lastly the list is inspired by Furion`s bowline, not a copy. Our old ways are not applicable any longer, furthermore the meta`s evolved a lot and Lions are nowhere near as strong as they used to be. I don`t know if this`ll work but it`s a first draft and looks interesting to play. High Magic is largely for flexibility here, Hand and Walk are super good spells, Arcane is usually nice and the signatures are always useful. Contrary to PG-star centric lists this doesn`t necessarily want to play offensively.

Speaking of PG-star, I might get around to a draft based on such a list as well. It`s hard getting all the things you want though ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:28 am
Posts: 14
Hello, thought I would chime in on this once since I can comment on things from both sides of the fence against daemons.

Let’s talk beasts since you seem to have a strong dislike for them (they are fantastic after all, but I’d place them alongside skull crushers, demis, and frostys rather than a league of their own).

You certainly have the tools to deal with them easily enough in your list, it wont be fast, but it will be certain since the rest of the daemon list isn’t much of a threat to the combat. Fiends can’t touch any of your main units, and cannons can be shot, magiced, and redirected for quite some time if not until they are destroyed (bolt throwers + magic), and that’s even assuming they are in the right part of the battle field, with your far greater mobility the beasts have to come to you to stop you mopping up the backfield in turn 3. This leaves the helms, characters, frosty and dragon free to munch the beasts.

The dragon should (and did) kill beasts on its own over the course of the game as long as you can keep its wounds topped up, alternatively tagging the frosty in there should really swing the combat to your favour what with the increased wounds from you, and the reduced strength of the beasts. You should beat them in every round of combat and the instability will help chip a few wounds off as often as they hold without additional damage.

The helms at full strength would have vaporised them in short order, but after the bsb died they would probably need frost heart assistance to be able to slowly grind the beasts down.

An option I have found very helpful for dealing with beasts is a cheap mounted noble with a dawnstone and 1+ armour…….he can keep an almost infinite number of beasts bogged down for the entire game. An opponent over here likes using multiple beast units with epi and this character is a great way of removing a dangerous unit from the game until I have the time and appropriate weight of units available to deal with them quickly (and keeps them from racking up the tally).

That matchup looks like it could be a bit of a dicey nail biter of a game though. If the cannons luck out and kill a big beasty early dealing with the beasts becomes a lot harder. Looks like the game could turn into a precarious race to see how long the bus can be blocked vs how much of the peripheral stuff can be caught.

Not a fan of the bowline at all……unless it’s for a team event where you can control the matchups a bit. Looks like a tougher wood elf list that packs nothing like as much damage. Don’t you think people will redirect your phoenix guard and pick bits off the rest (you would have to focus a lot of fire power to destroy obscured stuff at long range which would be a horrible waste of fire power). How would this list do against the vast horde of rats from a previous battle report (or indeed, any skaven army with the storm banner)?

I think you should get an extra level of shadow magic from somewhere. The chance of not getting both mindrazor and withering seems too high on only four dice (I know its low, but it only needs to happen in that one game where you really need both to throw a tournament away)…….especially given the casting restrictions under etc. If you didn’t have both it would be very easy to end up with a weak magic phase.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:58 am 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
Curu Olannon wrote:
Anointed. MR2 is super effective, ITP is super nice, 6++ allows for example the high mage to go in the unit without me fearing death snipes all of a sudden: with just a single spell through (which he is supposed to do if he`s in this unit) he`ll have a 3++ vs magic. Furthermore the only way to replicate this with a Prince is Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm and Obsidian Amulet, which isn`t even close in terms of defense: Prince only has 4++ vs magic (and that`s if you take Dragon Armour) which means you`re relying on high magic buffs to keep him safe from death snipes. Furthermore his ward is conditional and his armour save is way inferior to the Anointed`s. All this for +1LD, +1A and the loss of ITP and secondary character protection. If your build is centered around High Magic instead of Shadow I can see this working, but that is more of a PG-star centric list (which I might consider as well).

BSB. BOTWD. The banner is stupidly good. BSB is not meant to be in combat, thus he will survive by staying whereever an enemy does not want to engage. I anticipate he`ll usually go with Archers. Sisters if the opponent doesn`t have mundane ranged threats. Think about this guy`s utility vs Wood Elves, anything with Death, miscast protection, Warriors (Hellcannon), Daemons. The banner is just so good.

The lack of Reaver Bow and Potion of Strength is admittedly a problem. Finding the points however is no easy task. At 2500 I could probably justify including a Handmaiden to go with the Sisters, but at 2400 where will I get the points from? I have to make some serious sacrifices here and I don`t think it`s that significant. What would you replace?

Light Council is a completely different cup of tea. With the current ETC Restrictions on Book/Banner/Frostheart 0-1 I think it`s very hard to build the Coven strong enough with a traditional setup. I have some ideas for a coven as well but they are completely different to this list. Light doesn`t synergize nearly as well with PG as Shadow does. Furthermore Light does not make Archers useful. Miasma and Withering does. So yes, they share certain similarities but I think they are largely superficial.

Reavers Champion for conga-threatening. Simply the best way to fill core, in my opinion. More Archers are wasted and having 3 units of Reavers is nice since I couldn`t afford any Eagles here. I never take musicians on Reavers as I consider them too situational to be worth their points. Champions on the other hand always has their uses. Congacharging and auto-holding an enemy is something most people don`t expect for example. Flank-charging and auto-winning combat is even better.

Lastly the list is inspired by Furion`s bowline, not a copy. Our old ways are not applicable any longer, furthermore the meta`s evolved a lot and Lions are nowhere near as strong as they used to be. I don`t know if this`ll work but it`s a first draft and looks interesting to play. High Magic is largely for flexibility here, Hand and Walk are super good spells, Arcane is usually nice and the signatures are always useful. Contrary to PG-star centric lists this doesn`t necessarily want to play offensively.

Speaking of PG-star, I might get around to a draft based on such a list as well. It`s hard getting all the things you want though ;)


I still don't like the annointed, though I accept that it could be a personal bias as I've never really played many combat lord games, certainly not foot lords. What is his role? Do you need the S7 attacks? And only 3, and in only one, easily avoidable unit? And where his synergies are either not maximised or determine where he goes. He's not a bad character, but he's a huge point sink and I can't see a clear role for him in this type of list. I admit I'm likely missing something but he lacks focus to me. If you were to drop him it frees up lots of points. If having a non-caster lord isn't a key consideration for you - and I know Ld10 was part of the deal for Furion - then you don't even need to swap him for a cheaper prince, you simply free up the points. I still think Alith Anar works well in this kind of build, but he isn't necessary.

Other options I'd consider in the build:
Lv2 High with Scroll and MR2. One less MM/spell, but you've already got plenty. PG 2++ vs magic regardless of him casting. He can be either expendable or hop out before combat. It also frees you up to not take high (heavens maybe?) as you're less built around shield.

BSB with merywrym and MR2 is an alternative, though I know you're not fond of the shield.

To work with it for a moment, if you did go with your mage set up and switched annointed for Alith then this would give you a front rank of command of 5 with just 4++ characters and 4++ PG, with the high mage safe on the 2nd rank at least until champ/BSB is killed. And it's hardly like you're building around a high PG star with those characters. Both Alith (general) and PG get 2++ vs spells as with the annointed build, it just leaves your BSB on 4++ vs snipes and the Lv2/Lv4 vulnerable. But you can't necessarily have everything. In exchange for the annointed you get a S7 RBT which can actually hit reliably, Ld 10 and bonus swiftstride, in exchange for tankyness and S7 in combat...but as I've said, I'm not clear why you want that in this list.

BSB with reaver/PoS is a straight swap, but when I tried it I really liked this set up on the handmaiden - glugging the potion and still only hitting on 3's is a pain with nobles. If you did just drop annointed for points then this is easy to fit in. And it leaves the kit on the BSB free for utility items. Whether that means MR2 and a psuedo 4++ or BotWD is then somewhat to taste. I still think this is a list which can manage without it though.

It is possible to make a really nice 'magic denial' list but I don't know if it's worth it. I did build a list with MR3 BoH HighAM to go with sisters and reaver/PoS/ironcurse handmaiden, leaving either MR2/SoM BSB or MR1/scroll (optional high) mage for PG and I filled core with MSU cav which didn't need protection. The biggest weakness here is miscasts, but between low casting values and BoH for high, coupled with shield of saphery and a gentle reminder of the reality of miscasts other races suffer and it doesn't seem to bad.

Or you could of course take BotWD on BSB if you went with the archer build and leave really no good targets for magic, though I probably wouldn't bother as a lot of magic is buff/debuff anyway and archers are cheap core. But by the same measure, if you wanted to protect sisters from magic (though still not all WM or shooting) and didn't go the high route then BotWD obviously works.

I think there's a lot which can be done with this type of list, especially if you free up points from the annointed. Some early thoughts in other posts here and here:
www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=61486
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=64234

For context, are you planning this for singles or team events? And presumably under ETC restrictions either way?

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:14 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Boothy - 6 Beasts vs full wounds Star Dragon. Beasts average 2.13W per combat phase, SD averages 1.25W per combat phase. This is not counting the Prince, nor the Breath Weapon. This slightly pushes things in the favour of the SD, but not by enough to consistently win combat. The only reliable way to deal with them is the bus, you need static to wear them down. The SD can keep them, but not beat them. Even with a Frostheart tagging along it`s a tough call. Skullcrushers and Demis are fine, Frosties as well in my opinion, Beasts of Nurgle are Tier 1 along with Warlocks, Skullcannons and Ironblasters: These things just break the basic mechanics of the game in such a way that it`s ridiculous.

As for a Noble with Dawnstone - it could be done, but would cost me the offensive grinding power, which is just what I`m looking for. I`m not tailoring to DoC and in an all-comers environment I value the Ogre Blade far more.

The bowline is meant for singles play. This is a list not meant to push unless I have to (vs dedicated gunlines). I believe I can outshoot Dark Elves and High Elves of all flavours, possibly also WE though the latter depends on build. Anyway we`ll see if I get around to playtesting it. Vs Rats it would do quite well I believe, PG kill Skaven like there`s no tomorrow!

@Ferny - I don`t understand how you can not like him :D Have you played PG a lot against magic-intensive armies like Dark Elves, Orcs, High Elves, Wood Elves? The amount of damage thrown their way just goes up, up, up until they`re dead. Yes, 4++ is nice but it only helps so much. I consider the MR2 mandatory on them unless you center them around a High Magic caster. I`m not looking to put the L2 in here always. At least that`s not my intention.

The role of the Anointed is to make the PG go from a dangerous unit to an impossible unit. Remember that this is a defensive list, my opponent has to push unless he plays a gunline. What units can push and successfully engage this bunker? Lots of units can charge PG, a lot less so with the Anointed around, especially with the AP banner meaning his hits will reduce 1+ to 6+.

Taking MR2 on the Mage necessitates him hiding with the PG. You can`t just hop out before combat either, often you won`t have the chance. Once you`ve committed a character to a unit he tends to have to stay there. Furthermore, said mage will only have a 5++ himself. With my build, he`s usually a 2++ from BOTWD, if he needs to go in the PG it`s because I either draw a scroll (in which case he has 4++) or because I need a high magic buff (in which case he has 3++). BSB with anything but BOTWD is not an option, the item is too good. Besides, 4++ is not enough for a BSB. He needs a proper save or to not be in combat at all. The latter is my intention here.

Alith Anar is not possible. I build lists according to ETC - switching to another comp system is usually easy, the other way around is not. Furthermore SCs are almost always banned here.

If you ditch the Anointed completely I don`t think the list has enough punch to deter a push. Many opponents can simply wade in and have a field day. Not cool.

Quote:
It is possible to make a really nice 'magic denial' list but I don't know if it's worth it. I did build a list with MR3 BoH HighAM to go with sisters and reaver/PoS/ironcurse handmaiden, leaving either MR2/SoM BSB or MR1/scroll (optional high) mage for PG and I filled core with MSU cav which didn't need protection. The biggest weakness here is miscasts, but between low casting values and BoH for high, coupled with shield of saphery and a gentle reminder of the reality of miscasts other races suffer and it doesn't seem to bad.


What other races do is irrelevant. DE have their own miscast protection in the shape of Warlocks having excellent spells and thus taking large amounts of the phase away from the L4. WE have Sisters and High Magic Counters tanking it up. Other races have other means. We have BOTWD. I can do what you said without investing in MR items by simply putting L4 + BSB into Sisters. Added bonus: Sisters don`t care about Hellcannons/Skull Catapults etc. In fact, they don´t care about a lot of things.

The whole list revolves around being defensive enough to force a lot of opponents to push. If it has to push it has certain tools, but this is not its strength. Furthermore the PG need to be strong enough to deter pushers. Whether this holds true remains to be playtested ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:24 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
I like the Anointed. He can cope with stuff that would Thunderstomp a Merwyrm Prince to death for example. Plus it's super-cool having this little guy on foot duke it out with the big boys!

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1630 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group