Re: Path To Glory - IS done, SD returns! BR vs EMP 05.08
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:22 pm
We were going to play the Watchtower, right?Curu Olannon wrote:Next game is tomorrow vs Dwarfs
We were going to play the Watchtower, right?Curu Olannon wrote:Next game is tomorrow vs Dwarfs
TL;DR - dropped 2 Nobles, got a Frostheart Remaining points can probably be spent on another PG and a Reaver Champ, but as I`m not playing this list anytime soon I just thought I`d get the evolution draft up before I forget it!Cavbus PG v2.0 wrote: Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893
18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604
20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875
Army Total = 2372
Unless there are 2 pieces that, like these hills, block LoS, then no. You could get lucky, grab first turn and go all-out push. It might work out, screen monsters with Eagles etc, but I think most of the time you will lose and lose big.Ferny wrote:I know it's a hypothetical and I know it's not a meta you play in (and you've said your list approach may not work outside of this) - but if hills are TLoS, do you think an army like yours could have pushed against this list?
I've played 10 or so games with 3++ PG's (PG + high AM). So far I feel that 20 PG's are too few. I've needed to rely too much on static combat resolution and here a few extra bodies make wonders. So far my minimum are 22 but I feel 24-25 is closer to something optimal. I've found that I often fight battles in a formation 5 wide rather than maximizing attacks against MI, MC and monsters. All of which I have a hard time to wound (especially those 1+ and 2+ MC and the T6 monsters). By having the more bodies I can go 6 or 7 wide.Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893
18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604
20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875
Army Total = 2372
If you think you can make do without the Eagle, you can MAXIMIZE those PG's,Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893
17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Bows, Champ = 95 (I like this better than the bows&spears config for 95pts Reavers as the BS5 Harbinger is really good at sniping Charmed Shields & Waywatchers/Shades)
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601
22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 405 (Deploy them 8 wide in 3 ranks with the spellcasters in the corners)
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 905
Army Total = 2399
Good luck, I believe this kind of HE list has a lot of potential, especially under the ETC comp! PG blocks with the Razor Standard which can consistently manage to get that Shield of Saphery up is one of the most powerful things in WHFB. That Archmage configuration is tough as nails but still needs careful handling to survive. The Archmage's defensive gear is best suited to survive a lower number of high quality attacks coming from the likes of fighting characters so it might sometimes be better to challenge that Scar-Vet in that SaurusWarrior/TG block rather than eating lots of S4 spear-Saurus attacks for example. If he declines with the Scarvet he loses his fighting potential due to "Booo! Hiss!" so that's a win-win scenario for you!Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893
18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604
25 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 450 (9 wide in 3 ranks: the cheap & cheerful "pseudo-horde" made possible by Martial Prowess)
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Special & rare = 900
Army Total = 2397
Would crown of command fit on PG in a 3++ and helmbus list? That way even if prince+BSB are in the helms you're at least testing on stubborn 9, which aint shabby. Could go on a myrwyrm noble, sceptre lv2 (assuming scroll on lv4) or on the lv4 himslef if he's either 2nd rank or you feel confident with 4++ and high or fencers+5++ and high.Dragon fire wrote:I've tried various configurations. One with SM unit on foot. Very bad synergy and no movement. So skipped that one after one game.
Mostly I've run a SH unit with either one or two characters (ETC environment). Noble or Noble + Prince, the latter works best but it is also most influenced by bad generalship. If the prince was not in the bus he was on foot in the PG unit. I really find WbW to be critical, as this is the only way that the PG's can follow the bus. Otherwise you will have to slow the advance of the bus to not make one of the two units an easy target for combo charges (at least ine certain match-ups).
Recently I found myself in a situation where my PG's (20 man big) was stranded 20" behind the bus (who were eating skullcrushers). Unfortunately this left the PG with a direct fight against a 14 Warrios of Chaos. The PG's won the first round of combat, but lost the second and ran away after failing a Ld8 or Ld9 check with the prince (BSB was in the Bus). So my learning was the the two units should be rather close (bus need to be able support PG in certain match ups) as the PG's are not consistent enough with their damage output. On the other hand they are very consistent with the number of casualties taken.
I face a lot of DE (my best friend plays DE), and often the HE unit left standing is the PG's. Not even the WE powerhouse does he let near the PG's as their damage output against low T enemies is very big, but the damage intake is so low (3++!!). The bus has also been developed like you have done to deal with the peg lists. I face a list with 4 peg's; 1 dreadlord and 3 Masters. The DE list is So-so, I get some points but loose almost every unit except the bus and PG unit. On the other hand I've taken his SS, with darkshards and RBT's but none his DR, warlocks or peg master/lords. WoC in general seems to be a good match for the lists (except regen Trolls where I lost badly (I have no flaming attacks)), skaven is so-so. It's so hard to get any significant points when you cannot fly past the hordes of slaves... I think those are the enemies I've met with PG + bus.
I think, in a bid to play more quickly, for my next tourney I'll take a MonsterLord+Pheonix+bus(probably BotWD BSB and 2xhigh)+champreaversx2 and either 2nd rare pheonix or 4xRBTs, with a few points spare for whatever, probably shadow warriors. I'm assuming TLoS and I don't want to play cornerhammer...so maybe eagle cover is a good idea. I enjoy reading your blog but its a shame your wins might not be so easily replicable in my setting (skill differential aside!). Still, it looks fun so I think I'll do it.Curu Olannon wrote:Unless there are 2 pieces that, like these hills, block LoS, then no. You could get lucky, grab first turn and go all-out push. It might work out, screen monsters with Eagles etc, but I think most of the time you will lose and lose big.Ferny wrote:I know it's a hypothetical and I know it's not a meta you play in (and you've said your list approach may not work outside of this) - but if hills are TLoS, do you think an army like yours could have pushed against this list?
Dual-cav lists. This list and variants of it have seen some strong performances this year. I have zero experience with it however:Cavstar example wrote: High Elf Prince on elven steed: General, Itilmar barding, dragon armour, shield, dragonhelm, ironcurse icon, Giantblade, dawnstone, 290
Arcmage on elven steed: lvl4, lore of death, Crown of comand, Golden crown of Altrazar, Earthing rod, 310
Mage on elven steed: lvl 2, High magic, dispel scroll, khaines ring of fury, 180
Noble on elven steed: Battle standard bearer, Ithilmar barding, shield, heavy armour, World dragon banner, 166
Noble on elven steed: Heavy armour, Ithilmar barding, Ogre blade, enchanted shield, luckstone, 139
Noble on elven steed: spear, shield, Dragon armour, Ithilmar barding, The Other trikster shard, 114
18 silverhelms, full command group, shields 444
5 Elyrian Reavers, bow swap, 85
5 Elyrian reavers, 80
Frostheart phoenix, 240
3x Eagle Eye Bolt thrower, 3x 70
2x 5 Sisters of Avalon, 2x 70
Total: 2398
"Dual-cav" might not be the right word but usually I`ve seen this list with a single unit of Silver Helms (I can`t find the reference though). Dual-Silver Helms units are also common in this build.Dualcav list example wrote: Lord
Prince:Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Helm, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour,
Shield/ 285
Arch Mage:Lv 4, High Magic, Crown of Command, Dispel Scroll, Steed/ 300
Hero
Noble, BSB:Khaine´s Ring of Fury, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Barded
Steed, Dragon Armour/ 170
Noble:Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour/ 140
Core
5 Silver Helms: Musician, Shields/ 125
5 Silver Helms:Musician, Shield/ 125
5 Silver Helms: Shields/ 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80
Special
11 Dragon Princes: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon/ 399
Rare
Frostheart Phoenix/ 240
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Great Eagle/ 50
Total:2399
Sure, the cannon type WM's will almost always be targeting the monsters. Helblaster Volley Guns and Organ Guns OTOH are ineffective against the T7 Star Dragon but they can make mincemeat out of those Silver Helms with their S5 AP so there's that... Stone thrower type WM's might also want to thin down that big bus with their big round templates rather than taking an unlikely shot at scoring a direct hit on your dragon/phoenix. Thinning down the bus can be a tactically sound option for your opponent if he can do it quickly and effectively. Even RBT's might not want to try those inaccurate single shots on the monsters and go for volley-shooting or rank-piercing the Helmbus instead if he doesn't want that bus to stick around in combat long enough to provide CR and Stubborn for your dragon. Your Helmbus is big with 17 or 18 Helms but it can melt unbelievably quickly under S5 AP Helblaster/Organ Gun shots. 2+ to wound and you only get a 5+ armour save = lots of dead knights in a single turn of shooting.Curu Olannon wrote:What war machines would target the bus over the monsters/support?