Re: Path To Glory - BR vs Tomb Kings July 30th!
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:59 pm
Hi,
I was talking with Jimmy today and he mentioned your most recent battle report. He was curious how I would approach TK army since he looked at the game from their point of view. I quickly looked through the report as due to the fact it is short one it is harder to provide more detailed comments. He then convinced me I should post them in this topic.
I was reluctant as I don't think you need my comments but I promised so here were are. In any case, most important message to start with is that there is nothing personal and I am simply commenting on the game as if I would for any other player.
A pity the report is short and without details as it would help to look deeper into the game and possibilities. It is probably even more important for the defeats, from which one can learn much more than from victories.
I will start with armies in order to try and assess their strengths and weaknesses. I am not going to address the viability of the choices as I believe it is personal matter and if the player wants to add something it means he has some plan for it.
High Elves
The way I see it the army has two elements. Main combat unit with all characters and support units. Main unit is equipped to withstand magical damage and to charge swiftly against chosen target. It hits very hard, thanks to the heroes in it but Silver Helms may add to the number of wounds too, depending on the enemy. If I understand correctly, that unit should win combat without magic support but spells like Flaming Sword or Soulblight can also help. Against some enemies it may require support of Frostheart Phoenix. Adding it to any combat will probably make it swifter anyway.
The challenge with the unit is to make sure it gets into combat, when and where the player wants. Because it is big and easy to divert it needs support.
This is where shooters are going to help. Ideally, bolt throwers would clear the path but 2 fast cavalry unit and scouts should help to stop some enemies from stepping in front of silver helms or divert counter charging enemies, if the unit needs more time to defeat the enemy.
I believe the choice of Death and Fire lores may cause decision making conflict. Many spells from both schools are either magic missiles or direct damage spells and as such are limited to front arc. Since the wizards are in the unit that wants to be in combat as soon as possible they may be very limited in what they can cast. At the same time, the will to cast as many spells as possible is going to stop the unit from charging and its ability to win in combat may seem to be wasted.
Since the army is small in unit drops it needs to adopt some kind of formation that does not depend much on the enemy as it will often be out deployed.
Tomb Kings
This army clearly takes advantage of the ETC rules where it can be fielded with 2700 points limit. It allowed this particular army to get casket and titan in addition to the rest of the forces.
It has good shooting with the arrows that always hit on 5+, good amount of the bowmen and many units of these that allow to pick the targets better or to focus fire on single unit. It also has good magic with huge spells selection. With casket and titan it can produce more reliable magic phase. Because of these two factors as well as the nature of TK army that cannot march it looks like a defensive force, happy to play counter attack game. With many small and expendable units it can make sure to position more valuable targets (i.e. wizards) where they can be safer.
Magic and shooting is not enough, however, so that there are some combat orientated units. 4 sphinxes and a unit of knights are very good at intercepting the enemy units. Their high toughness can be a problem for many regiments too. At the same time, as any other unit in the army with an exception of big archer regiment with wizards, they are relatively cheap thus expendable.
General plan
There is no single regiment that can withstand the charge of the cavalry unit. It even starts with 5CR due to 3 ranks and 2 banners. With good cooperation from the Phoenix it can kill sphinx on the charge. In order to be efficient I think the army can benefit from refused flank formation.
Position repeaters in the center, if possible 6 inches away from any other unit so that they don't cause panic. Technically, it should not be a problem with Ld10 and BSB but better not to take a test at all. Then silver helms and phoenix deploy on one or another flank, probably choosing the one with better terrain set up. Reavers should be nearby, ready to intercept enemy redirectors. With that deployment the shooting is not obscured but at the same time it poses a dilemma to the enemy Hinge discussed elsewhere.
They can attack the bolt throwers but expose the flank. They can ignore bolt throwers but be shot at while moving anyway.
Game deployment
It is often very important phase of the game, no matter how many unit you or your enemy has. In this game the HE deployment was not good. First, Silver Helms were flanked by bolt throwers. If they moved they blocked the line of sight for the war machines. If they didn't they were not using their strength in close combat.
Second, support troops were not used well. Reavers were on the opposite flank, too far to help silver helms and too weak to make a difference on their own.
Finally, Shadow Warriors didn't use their scouting ability either. I think the good opportunity was to deploy them in front of the silver helms blocking 2 horse archers units from making vanguard move. Preventing that would mean that units in the back cannot move either. So TK player would have to choose to move slower than he wanted to or risk early charges. That in turn may have pulled out some elements out of formation.
Early Game
Support troops still don't participate in the game. Reavers are trapped because if they move out they may get shot and if they stay behind the hill, they can't do anything. I am afraid they are wasted resources here.
Shadow Warriors stay back, even behind the repeater. Not sure what the plan for them was but they, as reavers, are not contributing to the game, don't even redirect the approaching enemy.
Cavalry is very inactive and it seems the army plays as a magic+shooting orientated and is wasting great combat potential. In particular when it is not exploiting early success with the destruction of two sphinxes. It created great opportunity to attack enemy formation.
Phoenix seems to operate on his own too.
Mid game
The bus is pinned down as a consequence of inactivity. I still wonder why BSB died anyway. If the units is 5 wide it has to have 3 command models in the front rank. Why not allocate 2 places to the Prince and other noble and keep all fragile characters in the second rank? Especially that his main role is to provide re-rolls and protect the unit from spells.
The army operates with all its elements not supporting each other. Reavers do not protect the flank but don't move fast enough to avoid being shot at and as a result do not get to the catapult early either. They would have been so much more useful if they stayed close to the silver helms. For example, preventing that charge of the warshphinx and the loss of BSB.
It also seems that Phoenix attacked the knights all by itself and lost. It is a fantastic supporting monster but not exactly the great fighter on its own, especially when it cannot thunderstomp.
End game
The loss of the main unit to a panic check was a consequence of the prior inactivity and lack of support from the fast cavalry.
In summary, I think that TK player played very well but what he did was to spot and exploit mistakes. It is not the same as outplaying the opponent but does not make his victory in any way smaller or less deserved. He played to the strengths of his army, was proactive and was not afraid to risk or even sacrifice his sphinxes to achieve big victory.
The game was lost because:
- bad deployment that created conflict between static war machines and mobile cavalry
- the initiative, despite having first turn was not even seized by the TK player, was completely surrounded to him
- lack of cooperation between different elements of the army
- not addressing the danger of having all eggs in one basket by moving the unit away from potential panic sources and not giving it enough space to rally if that happens
Just some food for thought.
I was talking with Jimmy today and he mentioned your most recent battle report. He was curious how I would approach TK army since he looked at the game from their point of view. I quickly looked through the report as due to the fact it is short one it is harder to provide more detailed comments. He then convinced me I should post them in this topic.
I was reluctant as I don't think you need my comments but I promised so here were are. In any case, most important message to start with is that there is nothing personal and I am simply commenting on the game as if I would for any other player.
A pity the report is short and without details as it would help to look deeper into the game and possibilities. It is probably even more important for the defeats, from which one can learn much more than from victories.
I will start with armies in order to try and assess their strengths and weaknesses. I am not going to address the viability of the choices as I believe it is personal matter and if the player wants to add something it means he has some plan for it.
High Elves
The way I see it the army has two elements. Main combat unit with all characters and support units. Main unit is equipped to withstand magical damage and to charge swiftly against chosen target. It hits very hard, thanks to the heroes in it but Silver Helms may add to the number of wounds too, depending on the enemy. If I understand correctly, that unit should win combat without magic support but spells like Flaming Sword or Soulblight can also help. Against some enemies it may require support of Frostheart Phoenix. Adding it to any combat will probably make it swifter anyway.
The challenge with the unit is to make sure it gets into combat, when and where the player wants. Because it is big and easy to divert it needs support.
This is where shooters are going to help. Ideally, bolt throwers would clear the path but 2 fast cavalry unit and scouts should help to stop some enemies from stepping in front of silver helms or divert counter charging enemies, if the unit needs more time to defeat the enemy.
I believe the choice of Death and Fire lores may cause decision making conflict. Many spells from both schools are either magic missiles or direct damage spells and as such are limited to front arc. Since the wizards are in the unit that wants to be in combat as soon as possible they may be very limited in what they can cast. At the same time, the will to cast as many spells as possible is going to stop the unit from charging and its ability to win in combat may seem to be wasted.
Since the army is small in unit drops it needs to adopt some kind of formation that does not depend much on the enemy as it will often be out deployed.
Tomb Kings
This army clearly takes advantage of the ETC rules where it can be fielded with 2700 points limit. It allowed this particular army to get casket and titan in addition to the rest of the forces.
It has good shooting with the arrows that always hit on 5+, good amount of the bowmen and many units of these that allow to pick the targets better or to focus fire on single unit. It also has good magic with huge spells selection. With casket and titan it can produce more reliable magic phase. Because of these two factors as well as the nature of TK army that cannot march it looks like a defensive force, happy to play counter attack game. With many small and expendable units it can make sure to position more valuable targets (i.e. wizards) where they can be safer.
Magic and shooting is not enough, however, so that there are some combat orientated units. 4 sphinxes and a unit of knights are very good at intercepting the enemy units. Their high toughness can be a problem for many regiments too. At the same time, as any other unit in the army with an exception of big archer regiment with wizards, they are relatively cheap thus expendable.
General plan
There is no single regiment that can withstand the charge of the cavalry unit. It even starts with 5CR due to 3 ranks and 2 banners. With good cooperation from the Phoenix it can kill sphinx on the charge. In order to be efficient I think the army can benefit from refused flank formation.
Position repeaters in the center, if possible 6 inches away from any other unit so that they don't cause panic. Technically, it should not be a problem with Ld10 and BSB but better not to take a test at all. Then silver helms and phoenix deploy on one or another flank, probably choosing the one with better terrain set up. Reavers should be nearby, ready to intercept enemy redirectors. With that deployment the shooting is not obscured but at the same time it poses a dilemma to the enemy Hinge discussed elsewhere.
They can attack the bolt throwers but expose the flank. They can ignore bolt throwers but be shot at while moving anyway.
Game deployment
It is often very important phase of the game, no matter how many unit you or your enemy has. In this game the HE deployment was not good. First, Silver Helms were flanked by bolt throwers. If they moved they blocked the line of sight for the war machines. If they didn't they were not using their strength in close combat.
Second, support troops were not used well. Reavers were on the opposite flank, too far to help silver helms and too weak to make a difference on their own.
Finally, Shadow Warriors didn't use their scouting ability either. I think the good opportunity was to deploy them in front of the silver helms blocking 2 horse archers units from making vanguard move. Preventing that would mean that units in the back cannot move either. So TK player would have to choose to move slower than he wanted to or risk early charges. That in turn may have pulled out some elements out of formation.
Early Game
Support troops still don't participate in the game. Reavers are trapped because if they move out they may get shot and if they stay behind the hill, they can't do anything. I am afraid they are wasted resources here.
Shadow Warriors stay back, even behind the repeater. Not sure what the plan for them was but they, as reavers, are not contributing to the game, don't even redirect the approaching enemy.
Cavalry is very inactive and it seems the army plays as a magic+shooting orientated and is wasting great combat potential. In particular when it is not exploiting early success with the destruction of two sphinxes. It created great opportunity to attack enemy formation.
Phoenix seems to operate on his own too.
Mid game
The bus is pinned down as a consequence of inactivity. I still wonder why BSB died anyway. If the units is 5 wide it has to have 3 command models in the front rank. Why not allocate 2 places to the Prince and other noble and keep all fragile characters in the second rank? Especially that his main role is to provide re-rolls and protect the unit from spells.
The army operates with all its elements not supporting each other. Reavers do not protect the flank but don't move fast enough to avoid being shot at and as a result do not get to the catapult early either. They would have been so much more useful if they stayed close to the silver helms. For example, preventing that charge of the warshphinx and the loss of BSB.
It also seems that Phoenix attacked the knights all by itself and lost. It is a fantastic supporting monster but not exactly the great fighter on its own, especially when it cannot thunderstomp.
End game
The loss of the main unit to a panic check was a consequence of the prior inactivity and lack of support from the fast cavalry.
In summary, I think that TK player played very well but what he did was to spot and exploit mistakes. It is not the same as outplaying the opponent but does not make his victory in any way smaller or less deserved. He played to the strengths of his army, was proactive and was not afraid to risk or even sacrifice his sphinxes to achieve big victory.
The game was lost because:
- bad deployment that created conflict between static war machines and mobile cavalry
- the initiative, despite having first turn was not even seized by the TK player, was completely surrounded to him
- lack of cooperation between different elements of the army
- not addressing the danger of having all eggs in one basket by moving the unit away from potential panic sources and not giving it enough space to rally if that happens
Just some food for thought.