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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Good point about armour/weapons, didn`t even remember that!

As for the Lord choice - despite the defensive nature of the Anointed on a Phoenix I think people will pay attention to him to the point where they`d rather target him than a Noble on Griffon. Thus, the more protection he has, the better. If you have a weak lord as well than you will simply die against artillery. The Anointed then effectively works as a shield for your other flyers. Given a 4+ ward (or better, depending on a lot of things), natural variance is high so some games you will still just die. Others however you will manage to shield your units enough so that they can get into combat. Although a Frostheart has poor damage output, the total package of this guy compared to a griffon prince is very much in favour of the Anointed, in my opinion.

An alternative is of course to take 2 nobles on griffons and a cavalry prince along with an archmage. The nobles wouldn`t be fully kitted out (unless you play 2700 or more), but it could work.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:20 pm 
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One list I want to try out at 2200 point(Playing in a campain) is:

Anointed: Enchanted shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Anti-Heros and Crown of Command, Frostheart

Noble BSB: Barded steed, star lance, GW, HA, Shield of the Merwyrm

Mage lvl 2: Dispell scroll and Khaine's Ring of fury.

10 SH: full command, shields
5 ER/w bows
5 ER/w bows
11 Archers/w Mu

30 PG/w Razor banner and Mu

Frostheart


This ticks in at 2178 points, living it for some tweakings. Also I am not 100% if the shield will work for the noble, however after my understanding it do. If not, maybe change it for the dragonhealm and normal shield for 1+ armor.

I'd consinder this a phoenix guard theamed list :)

Edit: Forgot to add anointed's mount:P

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Last edited by Danidude on Sat May 04, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:08 pm 
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I was writing a long post but I accidentally opened dev. tools and hit backspace. Anyways, long story short I think Sword of Anti Heroes is better on a Noble: it`s an anti-deathstar item, nothing else. I like my lords to be of value in as many games as they can :)

List for tomorrow will be a compromise to get down to 2400 points:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

8 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 214
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
19 Archers, Musician = 200
Core = 604

18 Swordmasters, Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon (AM unit) = 314
10 White Lions = 130
Special = 444

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
9 Sisters of Avelorn = 126
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 576

Army Total = 2391

I might find something smart to spend my last 9 points at ;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Buy some fur for your nobility :D .

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Buy some fur for your nobility :D .


My Prince can`t because he sports Dragon Armour; my Noble doesn`t need to because he has a 1+ save :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Heh, actually, with where your list is at, I really can't see anything to add with those 9 points. Anything you'd get for that price would just be redundant.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Koradrel of Chrace wrote:
Heh, actually, with where your list is at, I really can't see anything to add with those 9 points. Anything you'd get for that price would just be redundant.


Only useful things I have thus far is Halberd for Prince (if his magic weapon is destroyed) and lion cloak for the BSB (in case the Dragonhelm`s destroyed). It`s highly marginal but better than nothing :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Ha ha ha that's what I mean! But if you have the points and want to spend them, I'd pick the Halberd on the Prince. He loses all usefulness if gou lose the Giant Blade, the Halberd will at least give hims some damage output.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Hey Curu

I read what you wrote and was a bit intrigued by your use of the Noble on a Griffon. This is a bit off the beaten path, but plays on that idea. It also incorporates the old Eagle Prince.

What do you think of something like this. It needs work. I don't really have a good wizard bunker at this point.

2400 points - no special characters, no units > 500 points

2397

Lords

Prince, Dragon Armour, Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Star Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Great Eagle w/ Talons and Swiftsense

Archmage, Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth

Heroes

Mage, Level 2, Lore of Shadow, Dispel Scroll

Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Golden Crown, Griffon w/ Swiftsense and Swooping Strike

Core

10 Archers

40 Spearmen w/ Full Command and Banner of Swiftness

6 reavers w/ bows

Special

Lion Chariot

Skycutter w/ bolt thrower

Shadow Warriors x 5 w/ walker and tormentor sword (etheral ambushing)

Rare

Frost Phoenix

Great Eagles x 2, Talons and Swiftsense

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:17 am 
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Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
@Ferny - I don`t see much point in a Prince on a griffon unless you`re going for air-spam. The Griffon is, by its very nature, a very offensive unit. Thus, a rider exhibiting the same traits synergizes better with the mount. To this end, a Noble works just as well as a a Prince: give him the Star Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness and you`re good to go! This is a formidable unit on the charge, able to kill and break a lot of units in the game. The Anointed on a Frostheart Phoenix on the contrary is a very defensive unit with mediocre damage output. If you really wanna go flying circus, I think anointed + frostheart + noble on griffon is the best approach, along with dual phoenix rares. To play a list like this I think you simply need to go all out and have your entire army as mobile and hitty as powerful, ref my former suggestion. Otherwise the lack of target saturation will leave your monsters in a very poor spot against war machines.

As for the PG deathstar, when going for a unit like that I think durability is the most important and even though the BOTWD grants a lot of that PG are simply way harder to shift than our other elites.


RE: Deathstar - fair enough, makes sense :).

RE: flying circus - I've never gone flying circus, but as a crude interpretation of what you've laid out - if the noble/griffon is offensive and the annointed/frostheart is defensive, and all out attack is better for flying circus, then why not keep the noble/griffon for heroes and additionally take a prince/griffon in lords? He's clearly more vulnerable than the annointed/frostheart, but is maximising the attacks (and saving some points as a bonus). Or do you need 3 pheonixes/the solidity of the annointed/frostheart in place of the prince/griffon?


I disagree that the griffon is more offensive. If you take all the upgrades on the griffon it's about 195 vs 240 for the FHP. Comparatively the FHP is better - more WS, T, W, Ld and better S after the charge. On top of that the FHP has a 5+ AS and 5++ (which can improve) neither which the griffon has. If it's Prince on Griffon vs Anointed on FHP I think Anointed is better. The griffon the noble on the other hand brings more viability and another interesting options but it'll be hard to kit him out with defense. It'll probably be all offensive and you'll have to be careful how you play him.

Danidude wrote:
Noble BSB: Barded steed, star lance, GW, HA, Shield of the Merwyrm

The 4+ parry won't work on the Barded Steed. It's a parry after all - at least that's how i interpret it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:23 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
Danidude wrote:
Noble BSB: Barded steed, star lance, GW, HA, Shield of the Merwyrm

The 4+ parry won't work on the Barded Steed. It's a parry after all - at least that's how i interpret it.


I see your point, the main reason I think it may be used while rideing a mount is the fact AB>BRB, and when the AB says it works as long the wielder do not use a two handed weapon. However if my gaming group disagrees with me, I have no problem dropping.

I do hope we get an FAQ soon that may clearify this shield ether way.

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:59 am 
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Danidude wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
Danidude wrote:
Noble BSB: Barded steed, star lance, GW, HA, Shield of the Merwyrm

The 4+ parry won't work on the Barded Steed. It's a parry after all - at least that's how i interpret it.


I see your point, the main reason I think it may be used while rideing a mount is the fact AB>BRB, and when the AB says it works as long the wielder do not use a two handed weapon. However if my gaming group disagrees with me, I have no problem dropping.

I do hope we get an FAQ soon that may clearify this shield ether way.


Yes the AB>BRB but it doesn't say you can use it while mounted. It says in the BRB that parry save is only for infantry models with mundane hand weapon + shield. The only thing that AB>BRB is that you can use the parry when you have a magical weapon.

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:48 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
BSB Noble on Griffon with ASF, Dev. charge, Star Lance, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Golden Crown of Atrazar = 290


Unfortunately, this build costs a whopping 350pts. I was looking to steal this Griffon BSB build but found out that it was quite the expensive investment! :wink:

The increased offensive potential of the new Griffon now ride-able by Nobles is totally worth the hefty price tag in "Monster-Mash" lists though! :D


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:53 pm 
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@Koradrel of Chrace - I might be re-structuring a bit, anyway ;)

@Atlantic - I don`t believe in Spears. I also think the Eagle Prince is too weak in this edition. Essentially, whatever role he`s supposed to be filling can be done by a Noble. Also, Shadow Warriors are too expensive for what they do.

@pk-ng - I don`t see how you don`t find the griffon more suited for an aggresive role given your own reasoning..?

@Danidude - FAQ needed indeed.

@Lecai - True, I corrected myself in a later post but never got around to editing the other one :)

Just had my first game, new post will a summary of my thoughts will follow!

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:30 pm 
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.::. First Game, First Impressions .::.

I ran the list located a few posts up, running against 2400 TK. We played uncomped Warhammer, with the simple exception of SLOS and no double rares over 170 points. A somewhat detailed report will follow (oh when will I have the time!), for now here are my thoughts:
- High Magic spell selection on a level 4 isn`t that great. With 2 fairly strong signature spells it`s decent, but I wish it were a tad bit stronger.
- Hand of Glory requires semi-big units to be a threat.
- Drain Magic is very flexible.
- Walk Between Worlds is fantastic with a cavalry unit.
- Book of Hoeth is every bit as powerful as I thought it would be.

- A semi-big unit of Archers proved to be a decent anchor for the ranged parts of my army. LD is an issue for these guys though.
- Avelorn Archers aren`t that great. In fact, if they don`t have anything they`re particularly strong against (i.e. forces of destruction or regen stuff) I would much rather have an RBT. The range difference is huge, much because what can hit you back at 24" is a real threat to the Archers whereas RBTs stowed away don`t really care.
- RBTs at 70 points might just be properly priced. With Hand of Glory their potential damage output is awesome. The board control they grant is good and the possibility of taking a proper battery without sacrificing an arm and a leg means that they can help out against anything that isn`t massed infantry.

- Reavers in core is beautful.
- Swordmasters and White Lions have completely different roles. Losing re-rolls and dropping a couple of points creates an entirely different unit.
- The Giant Blade Prince hits hard, but it`s not the Star Dragon of our last`s book insane damage output.
- The Star Lance Noble is perfect, his damage output on the charge is amazing with the Potion of Foolhardiness.

For the army overall, I need to re-think my mage bunker. It ends up playing a semi-passive role where they can`t really be a big threat. However, since they carry the Banner of the World Dragon they need to be so tough that killing them isn`t an option. The question is, which infantry unit is best suited for this role? I can feel the fragility of the Swordmasters coming back to haunt me if I take them, same for the lack of WS6 and thus damage output from the Lions. Hard choice, will have to think some more.

Another concept we discussed at the club today was the Dragon Prince deathstar of doom. I find the concept rather interesting because I don`t think we`ve ever been able to field a proper deathstar previously. I think this might be it and I might even put this whole combined arms thing on hold to try it out. Here goes:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, Potion of Speed, Enchanted Shield = 282
High Archmage lvl 4 on Barded Elven Steed with Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Protection = 317
Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 145
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Charmed Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Dragon Armour, Potion of Strength, Lance = 161
High Mage level 2 on Barded Elven Steed with Crown of Command = 170
Lords total = 599
Heroes total = 476

5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
9 Silver Helms, musician, shields = 217
Core total = 642

11 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 434
Special total = 434

1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare total = 240

Army total = 2391

Silver Helms deploy 3x3 usually, Dragon Princes with all characters 5x3. Reavers ensure I get the drops where I need them, help clear chaff and their vanguard allows them to get into great starting positions, whether I need them further back or up ahead. The Dragon Prince champion is the answer to other, similar deathstars. 3 characters? Fine, deal with my 6 S6 attacks on top of my already formidable array of characters. The bus is stubborn on LD10, carries great protection against anything related to magic and will frequently run around with a 4++ or better. The second mage not only ensures stubborn, but also spell selction and more options should I get enough dice to play around with. The Frostheart really is a no-brainer and rounds out the list nicely.

I honestly don`t see what can stop this unit. Yeah sure 24 Ironguts with enough characters getting the charge off will of course win, however that should not happen in most of the cases. Getting stuck is of course also a problem, though I don`t see a lot of units in the game who can effectively stall this unit for long enough. The unit of Silver Helms provide a secondary threat or can combine to provide an additional 15 S5 attacks on the charge - the total frontage is "only" 8 models, which is impressive considering the amount of hurt put down.

With High Magic - Walk Between Worlds and Hand of Glory most notably - this unit can likely be fast enough and hard-hitting enough to bring down enough to make it worthwhile. Unlike infantry deathstars it doesn`t suffer from being too slow and easily redirected.

The one big achilles heel of this list is of course the Dwellers Below. This is a terrible counter and I`m simply counting on people not to bring Life in an uncomped environment. The only army I can see doing this because it`s effective is Empire. Perhaps an odd Lizardmen player here and there or even High Elves. The main point though is that this is indeed an odd case and at most I should run into this once during a tournament. Furthermore, Empire very rarely plays Deathstar, which means I can split up my characters between the different units. Same goes against Lizardmen.

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:13 pm 
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If you're that worried about Dwellers (and I would be, if I ever played uncomped warhammer!), I'd put the Crown of Command onto a Noble and add the dispel scroll to your back-up Mage. Personally I wouldn't worry about Crown of Command as I don't think you'll ever lose combat, unless you're in a situation where you're dead anyway...


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Have you considered the AM + Anointed with a WL horde as a death star? You might not get the rerolls to hit, however hitting on 3's most of the time and wounding on 2's shuold bring down most units.

The anointed gives the unit 6++ and ItP, so you do not have to worry about fear and terror checks. Also bring a bsb with Shild of the wermyrm, gets a 4++ parry, or take him in a unit of SH that may flank.

Edit: also wanted to point out you may add if you play 2500 points, you may take giant blade, in a 2400 take ogre balde for the anointed, so then he also will bring a punching to the unit.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:35 am 
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Probably just a mistake, but how is your Silver Helm unit adding 15S5 attacks? I make it 9 with no champion.

That is a powerful death star for sure. To be honest the worst thing for it to run into would be a High Elf unit with BotWD.

However, I think you need more shooting. The only weakness of your deathstar (aside from BotWD & dwellers - 2 mages and no scroll? Fix that) is not being able to get into combat with what you want. 5 reaver units will help, but with only 25 bow shots you're going to struggle to ensure redirectors and speedbumps aren't leading your death star on a merry chase all game. Because when it comes to a deathstar this size it starts becoming cost effective for your opponent to use some of his tougher units to do that job. The sort of units that reavers will bounce off.

Really I think you need RBTs, but the list doesn't really have room for them, so perhaps switch out the Silver Helms for archers? You lose your auxilliary combat unit but double your missile output, and how much can 9S5 attacks really help when you have so much strength in your deathstar? If it's just to occupy another part of your opponents army (before inevitably dying) then your multitude of reavers can accomplish the same thing.

Come to think of it, unless you use that second mage for a scroll (I'd agree you don't need stubborn. Even if you get flanked, you'll make way and decimate the threat) I'd drop it and buy RBTs.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:57 am 
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Stay away from the Deathstars Curu..

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:07 am 
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@Stormie - good point. The problem with taking the Crown of Command on a Noble is that I miss out on so much grinding power. I do think you`re right however and that a scroll is more important.

@Danidude - nope, don`t think Lions are worth it. Too many things can take them head on and come out on top.

@Xarhain - You are of course correct, it should have been 9 attacks. As for weakness, what armies and units in particular do you view to be a problem? With the Frostheart and Helms as well as Reavers being able to physically block I don`t think this will be that much of a problem, honestly. There`s also 1-2 magic missiles around and with 4D6 hits, even medium-sized units can quickly evaporate. Another problem with RBTs is that they`re easy points. Nothing else is, aside from the Reavers which I consider mandatory anyways. I agree the scroll needs to enter the game, the crown however has to stay. There are some units that can get ridiculous amount of combat resolution in this game and it`s cheap insurance for bad spots.

As far as another BOTWD is concerned - I have Arcane Unforging so it shouldn`t be a problem.

@HERO - any reasons for this..?

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:20 am 
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@HERO - any reasons for this..?


Mainly because you draw vs. a Life Slaan, he throws one lucky IF Dwellers and the unit suffers horrendously. Even crappy luck with a Cannonball on the turn you didn't stack wards. I personally stay as far away from those kind of builds as possible.

One time, I lost Teclis, his unit of PG, Caradryan and BSB to a miscast :P Luck happens, so I try to prevent the 0-20 loss from my own stupidity as much as possible.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:56 am 
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HERO wrote:
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@HERO - any reasons for this..?


Mainly because you draw vs. a Life Slaan, he throws one lucky IF Dwellers and the unit suffers horrendously. Even crappy luck with a Cannonball on the turn you didn't stack wards. I personally stay as far away from those kind of builds as possible.

One time, I lost Teclis, his unit of PG, Caradryan and BSB to a miscast :P Luck happens, so I try to prevent the 0-20 loss from my own stupidity as much as possible.


Why would I play the unit like a Deathstar against a Slann? Lizardmen run MSU in competitive builds and have no viable deathstars to speak of. Thus I can sender the armoured characters on their own and have the mages stay in a unit each. Problem solved.

I do acknowledge Dwellers to be a huge threat, but I also see it as the only threat. Because of this, the unit`s synergy with High Magic and its speed, I believe it`s worth trying out.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:58 am 
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Take it from an ogre player: every egg in one basket is not a rewarding playstyle. It will lead to less fun battles (at least for your opponent), whether or not you win or lose.

As for it's power, the Dragonstar is very good. With swift reform and then walk between worlds your opponent need a lot of redirectors to block you. Btw: Is is possible to have two quick reforms? One in the movement phase, then one in the magic phase from walk between worlds?

One possible synergy for your future flying circus: skycutters and frost phoenixes. Skycutters with effective T5 or T6. Also, the phoenixes can at least partially shield the skycutters when advancing.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:22 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@pk-ng - I don`t see how you don`t find the griffon more suited for an aggresive role given your own reasoning..?

I think Griffon on a Lord Level Character isn't great as there are better mount options e.g Dragon/Phoenix. But on a Noble it may be a viable option.

SM v WL. Pros and cons in battle.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:54 am 
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@rusty - for finding it boring you sure have played that army a lot! Regardless, I believe there`s more to a cavstar than a gutstar. As far as the flying circus is concerned, the only places it could be viable are places where it`s going to comped with flyer restrictions. If flyers are e.g. 0-4, it`s easy to see that lord + noble + 2 phoenixes are the superior options.

@pk-ng - agreed, it`s bad for a prince but could indeed be useful on a noble, although I don`t think a noble could play it defensively. Star Lance + Crown + Charmed Shield + Potion of Foolhardiness ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:12 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@rusty - for finding it boring you sure have played that army a lot! Regardless, I believe there`s more to a cavstar than a gutstar. As far as the flying circus is concerned, the only places it could be viable are places where it`s going to comped with flyer restrictions. If flyers are e.g. 0-4, it`s easy to see that lord + noble + 2 phoenixes are the superior options.

@pk-ng - agreed, it`s bad for a prince but could indeed be useful on a noble, although I don`t think a noble could play it defensively. Star Lance + Crown + Charmed Shield + Potion of Foolhardiness ;)


Total agree on the noble part. Just punch through!

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:56 am 
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I'm going to have to side with HERO on this one, I've never seen a deathstar that saw meaningful combat and high elves do it worse than most due to asf. On the turn you charge a five man empire detachment or dwarf slayer conga with 5 champs, the characters and knights can only kill the champ, then 3 horses cant kill 4 men.

Yes you can magic away or swift reform and move but each turn you spend doing that is a turn your list gets no points.

The reavers, helms and phoenix are easy points, and even the deathstar isn't all that survivable as I'd bet on 30 WL with the banner every day of the week against it. After the charge all you have is 3 not that killy characters and some s3 attacks.

Nice idea, doesnt really work in practice(I tried a better version with beasts and the old book and loremasters).
If you want a deathstar do it with white lions.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:01 pm 
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I have to strongly disagree. First of all I`ve seen a number of successful Deathstars and second of all there are some very high-skilled HE players in my club who are pretty sure that this kind of build can work well. Lastly, the cavstar isn`t one dimensional in the sense that it has to be played this way, there is nothing wrong with splitting up and going for multiple units or leave a single character to deal with annoying things. I think you are underestimating M9, Hand of Glory and Walk Between Worlds here as well as the unit`s capability of dealing with multiple threats simultaneously.

So to your case:
- Dwarf conga line - leave a single character to deal with them, or lock them down with another unit. The rest of the unit is thus free to kill other Dwarfs. Not to mention, the M9 unit isn`t necessarily blocked by the M3 one in the first place, especially considering I have more drops than most Dwarf armies.

Here`s a revised version of the list. Still needs more tweaking:

Prince on Steed with Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone = 270
High Archmage level 4 on Steed with Book of Hoeth, Crown of Command = 330
Noble BSB on Barded Steed with Golden Crown of Atrazar, Charmed Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Potion of Foolhardiness, Star Lance = 174
Noble on Barded Steed with Potion of Strength, Dragon Armour, Dragonhelm, Sword of Might, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed with Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon = 101
High Mage level 2 on Steed with Dispel Scroll = 155
Lords total = 600
Heroes total = 577

5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers with bows = 85
5 Reavers with bows = 85
5 Reavers with bows = 85
5 Reavers with bows = 85
8 Silver Helms with Shields, Musician = 194
Core total = 614

9 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 376
Special total = 376

Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare total = 240

Army total = 2407

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@rusty - for finding it boring you sure have played that army a lot!

Yes, and my soul will burn in hell. I didn't say boring, just frustrating. I have tried the "standard" deathstar setup for some time, and found I didn't match my playstyle. Shooty ogres next. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:
Regardless, I believe there`s more to a cavstar than a gutstar
.
Yes, roughly 350 pts more :wink:. The cavstar has a load of capabilities, no question there.
You probably thought about it already, but jumping all the heroes from one cav bus to another is pretty good. If the DPs are shoot down, jump ship to SH and have an almost as hard unit.

Quote:
As far as the flying circus is concerned, the only places it could be viable are places where it`s going to comped with flyer restrictions. If flyers are e.g. 0-4, it`s easy to see that lord + noble + 2 phoenixes are the superior options.

When having to choose phoenix are superior, no question. Which makes a simple 0-4 cap very bad comp, since people will just take the good stuff and leave the skycutters at home.
The again, the latest discussion could change that.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Quote:
Yes, and my soul will burn in hell.


I lol'd :D

Quote:
I didn't say boring, just frustrating.


Truth be told, I find any strong list played by a good player to be frustrating. If anything, death stars are less frustrating than others because they are fairly straight forward. My most frustrating matchups ever include 7th Vampires +4PD spam (try and stop my charge, which I can cast 4 times with 4 more pd than you!), 7th Daemons Siren Song spam (good luck getting the position you need!), Lizardmen MSU spam (catch me if you can) and Dark Elves Winrazor (any unit you engage will have S8 and a 5+ ward. Have fun!). None of these are deathstaroriented.

Quote:
I have tried the "standard" deathstar setup for some time, and found I didn't match my playstyle.


How much is this related to the build itself relative to the fact that there are other, stronger deathstars out there?

As for the cavstar "having more" than a Gutstar, I could probably write an entire article. Long story short, a Gutstar cannot do anything else whatsoever than push ahead. A cavstar can split up, utilize its superior movement, adapt to multiple formations, benefit from Walk Between Worlds to create insane scenarios but perhaps most importantly, the characters don`t even have to go with the unit in like half of the potential matchups you can have. This is not viable with Ogres, your characters are dead locked in their unit to remain effective.

Seeing the latest ETC discussion on the AR.com forum really makes me sad. It just goes to prove what I've said a number of times - the comp is based on paranoia and an irrational fear of polarized matchups. If they limit large targets to 2 or even 3, why aren't ALL war machines 0-1? Have you ever tried playing a monster-rider against 2 laser-guided skill throwers and 2 cannons? You can't get much more polarized than that. Anyway, enough rant: I'm not going with the flying circus for Invasion regardless, so it doesn`t matter.

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