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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:54 am 
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Hey Sicha, thanks for your input :)

With my current skillset I am probably best with the first list.

The Griffon Character is quite essential. Consider his charge potential: 4 S7 ASF no-as attacks from the Noble. 5 S6 ASF AP attacks from the Griffon. At I5, he gets rerolls against all flavours of cavalry in the game, save for CoK and DP. This total of 9 attacks is truly brutal in the current meta. Combined with a Frost Phoenix (of which there are 2 in the list!) your survivability increases and all monsters strike before strike back as well. Thus, the Lord + BSB can reliably charge and break most MC units in the game, even in the front. They also pack a serious punch against characters on the charge. The thing is that last edition`s monster mash saw the Star Dragon as a central piece around which you could take anything because of its presence and power. This time around however I think the elements need to coordinate better, with more synergy. Thus, this list is based around mobility so that getting combined charges off is more important. Grinding is a terrible prospect. The list include a solid shooting phase which helps me pick my targets and weaken whatever needs to be weakened before engaging. Another beautiful thing about this BSB is that he`s deceptive: I expect people to target the Lord instead, which is fine by me, really.

List 2 features PG, which with their I6 get re-rolls pretty much against everything ;)

List 3 will probably be playtested first. It is the cheapest list for me in the sense that I don`t have to buy a lot of new stuff to play with it. Furthermore, I want to see how well I can make the list concept + high magic work. I know I can play list 1, the problem with list 1 is the cannon-spam I'm expecting in a virtually no-comped environment. If I seriously face Dwarfs with 8 machines the game is over before it has begun, barring insane luck. 4 flying monsters can of course be lucky and only face 1 turn of shooting, but I consider it highly unlikely that this list will stand much of a chance in such a situation.

@THRILLHELM - you're right, I forgot to add a lot. That means a Skycutter has to go.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:05 am 
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With the "Combined Arms" force, I think you are over stocked on rare choices.
Unless Bolt Throwers can now be taken as a unit! Am I missing something?

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
9 Sisters of Avelorn = 126
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 646


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:05 am 
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Excellent reasoning for the griffon bsb. I love the idea of the monster mash, the target saturation and prioritisation would reduce the most stubborn dwarf to tears.
I just feel the list needs atleast one combat block to hold the line. As has been said already though, it fits you like a glove.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:36 am 
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@Timinator - nice catch, you are correct and I have to adjust! Most likely an RBT will have to go. They can be taken as 2-per-1 so I'm just over on points, not choices :)

@Sackree - the problem with having a combat block is that it'll inherently be fragile and thus easy to handle if the monsters die. Furthermore, I don't see where I could drop points to achieve this.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:51 am 
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I've updated the lists in one of the initial posts, see this link for corrected examples of Monster Mash & Combined Arms: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45081&p=808512#p808512

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:00 pm 
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- Which list do you consider to be the strongest?
Uncomped: PG Deathstar possibly. It is very one-dimensional. Then again, both other lists have great potential, but require more skill to play.

- Which list do you think I'm best with?
Monster mash off course!


- Which list would you rather not play against?
PG Deathstar. Will lead to some rather boring games I guess, for both you and your opponent. A smart player will recognize whether he is able to take on the unit or not, and avoid it at all costs. Not to mention the walkovers you'll get vs Daemons.
Conversely, both combined arms and monster mash looks like great fun for both players.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:30 pm 
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@rusty - pretty much my conclusion as well.

I've decided that I'll start off with the combined arms list. On paper it doesn't have a definitive answer to anything, but it has a lot of "needles" who'll make small holes which will eventually sink anything. I've seen how Seredain has used his list under our last book and the units basically just got better and/or cheaper. It is a multi-faceted threat which can compete in all faces of the game, usually with a very strong presence.

I think it will be challenging and interesting to play. Luckily I have almost all the models I need for this list so I can start practicing straight away. First game is on Sunday. The tournament I'm aiming for is in the middle of September. Hoping to get the last tourny report up before that as well as make some initial analysis with this list :) And of course, actually pick up the book!

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:35 pm 
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As an alternative star dragon build:
Ogre blade
Armor of destiny
Charmed shield

That fits him in right at 312.5 ss. Granted it doesn't work for 2400, but we play 2500.
I am tempted by the frost Phoenix anointed to replace him, but I worry about the lack of damage potential.
I was thinking
Prince on star dragon as above
2 lvl 2 high mages one with book. One with dispel scroll
3 units of 5 reavers with bows and muso
24 lsg full command
19 pg fc botwd
9 white lions fc
1 flame Phoenix
1 frost Phoenix

Thought is anvil and hammer tactic, looking for apotheosis, soul quench, walk between worlds and a random for spells. I would wbw the lion hunting pack up to support the fliers if possible. If I lose the dragon, I pull the phoenixes back to use as flank chargers in supportofthe infantry blocks.
Clearly gun line builds will give me the most trouble, but if the monsters can make it in...


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:41 pm 
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There are multiple builds around that aren't terrible, but overall the Star Dragon has just lost so, so much. I just don't think it's viable any more, with its increased vulnerability to fire, the Prince's inability to come fully tanked up. Essentially you're trying your level best to either give him a bit of protection or a bit of offensive capabilities. However at 600 points it just doesn't cut it for me, especially considering how good other lord choices are at ~600 points (Daemon Prince I'm looking at you!). If you want to give it a go vespacian1 I'd be happy to read about your experiences though :)

Thought of the day: OTS on the Prince? With the Frost Phoenix his save is essentially 1+ with a 2+ on paper. OTS helps out tremendously against fighty lords, Gutstars, Daemons (not sure it's needed with more power vs Daemons given the BOTWD but), annoying parry saves, savage orcs... I also lose the Golden Crown, which hurts the most I admit.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Golden crown is a better version of charmed shield the way I read it. I'd keep to make sure you get safely into combat. Take down combat lords a notch with Arcane Unforging et al first. The rest is handled with flaming attacks which you have in abundance.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Golden crown is very much so better than charmed shield. Anyways I just realized that my current build is illegal: you cannot take 2 talismans and there's no way I'm ditching the Dawnstone. Thus, I think my choice has been made and it's OTS all the way, at least until I figure that 2+ re-rollable isn't enough ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:00 pm 
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I'm a big fan of the proposed combined arms list. not sure on the small external unit of lions. Would these not be better added in to the big block as 20 is just not that killy?

I dont rate the sisters as they seem to have forgotten to model the banner which says " MM here for lots of points". I know the provide flaming shooting to back up the rbts but it just seems to provide a concentrated target(600+) of soft points for the enemy aim for. Also no musician, really?


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:55 am 
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Maybe you`re right about the external Lions. However, for starters I believe a list like this is about drops and flexibility. With walk between worlds, setting up multiple angles should be a possibility, at which point I believe having more units is the superior choice. Furthermore the Lions can be great flank-protectors and anchor whatever I need them to, something that could easily be valuable given the RBT investment. I would be more reluctant to do this with a bigger unit.

The Sisters are our only way to bring ranged fire attacks now. Yes they are vulnerable but I still doubt people will target them over Lions or even the cavalry. The reason I haven`t given them a musician is because they do not have the option to take one.

Overall I`m hoping to play this army strategically as multi-faceted as possible: stretching my lines out to get flexibility and angles. The units cannot go head-to-head and expect to win against anything but small pockets of stuff, but with the angles that come with a wide deployment I`ll (hopefully) have a lot of options. I also believe the list has enough drops to let me deploy favourably against Daemons, Warriors and Ogres, while being on an equal foot against Empire and Vampires.

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Im very interested to see and read of a viable and accurate points costing for the dragon mage and mounted bsb on a griffon to aid my list-hammer addiction, can both of these be suitably kitted out to survive at under 25 percent in 2400 - 2500pts games??

If not whats the best load out to keep under hero percentage??

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:43 pm 
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You can get one but not both. The Dragonmage starts well above 300 points and the Griffon Noble comes out well above 300 fully stacked as well. With optimal gear I think the two of them combined will be around 800 points.

I made a minor change to the list, swapping the Prince`s crown + potion for Other Trickster`s Shard. The more I think about it the better I think this choice is. One choice I do find myself having problems with however is the SM block. Long story short I think their viability depends upon how high magic will actually play in practice. With their poor save they are so inherently weak against ranged attacks: while the BOTWD helps out tremendously here I`m unsure of how much beating they can really take. I`m not concerned about their damage output relative to Lions, but being too squishy is definitely a big drawback. Looking forward to getting the book on Saturday (maybe it`s all a big setup and it`s totally different!) and having my first game on Sunday :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Curu, your combined arms list is 100 pts over since 20WL/FC costs not 240 but 340 pts


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:14 pm 
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vladamex wrote:
Curu, your combined arms list is 100 pts over since 20WL/FC costs not 240 but 340 pts


You are indeed correct aaaaand I'm back to the drawing board :(

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The Sisters are our only way to bring ranged fire attacks now. Yes they are vulnerable but I still doubt people will target them over Lions or even the cavalry. The reason I haven`t given them a musician is because they do not have the option to take one.


This is actually not true. Unless I am reading it wrong, our best option is the sunfire gem. Not only it gives +1to Wound, but it also makes the attacks flaming. And if you manage to boost the BS of the archers with the high magic spell, you are looking at one very dead regenerating monster. Best works on unit of archers of 20-23


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Unfortunately the Gem only works if you have flaming attacks already and the effect is limited to the bearer, his spells and his mount. So that tactic won't work at all.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:01 am 
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@Marinero - unfortunately the item only works if you already have flaming attacks.

@THRILLHELM - you are correct, sir.

Ok so a short look at the list again:

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767

8 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 214
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
10 Archers, musician = 110
10 Archers = 100
Core = 614

20 Swordmasters, Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon (AM unit) = 340
12 White Lions, Musician, Standard Bearer with Gleaming Pennant = 181
Special = 521

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
10 Sisters of Avelorn = 140
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 590

Army Total = 2492

As you can see, the army is ~100 points too expensive. The way I see it, I have multiple options against tough things, between the RBTs, characters and frost phoenix I`m not afraid of MCs nor flying monsters. What does worry me is things that have a natural high toughness without necessarily sporting a good armour save. Same for regen. A big unit of Trolls or Crypt Horrors for example, or the infamous Gutstar, leave me worried. With regen, by far the best option is to neutralize them for afar, bringing the firepower to bear when and where it matters. To reduce the vulnerability of my Sisters, I think the best option is to split them into two units. This has the added effect of letting them deploy 2+2+1 or 3+2, which pretty much eliminates the need for a musician. The only reasonable way to afford this though is to either drop the secondary elite unit or reduce the AM bunker. Seeing as I consider the BOTWD better on a medium-sized unit, the answer is pretty much given: the Lions have to go. This leaves me with roughly 90 points. The smallest Lion unit we can take now is 130 points. We can get smaller Swordmaster units but I strongly doubt their use in this list. I can of course just beef up the other unit, which also helps me out with Steadfast issues (should I ever run into one) as the Swords can go deep. I consider this a better option than a chariot, which I still think is overpriced for what it does.

Another option of course is to re-think the army composition. I can ditch the elites all together and include a DP-bus instead, leaving points for more archers in core. This leaves me without much grinding power though, at least as long as I insist on going with the full rare. I doubt this is the better option, though mounting the AM and giving him Crown of Command will make for an awefully strong bus.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:52 am 
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Great list and quite similar to what I have posted on my (new) blog. Shame you dont play at 2500 pts!

I guess the easiest way to drop the points is lose the muso on the first 10 man archer squad, gleaming pennant and 1 RBT bingo legal points reduction but then i'm going to assume you need the 3rd RBT to counter threats at distance. Regen is a massive concern and the more I read on the forum about the benefits of the frosty bird essentially having T7 that is only true once its in CC. Yes base line stats it is better but the fire phoenix is starting to looking highly appealing to. S4 breath flaming attacks over unit it flies over and when it dies on every turn roll a d6..yes on a 1-2 its gone forever (like any other model) but on a 3-5 pie plate S4 attacks on point of death and a 6 resurrects with d3+2 wounds. Mini dragon for less points than either a real dragon or even the frostheart. Just a thought.

Be interested to hear your thoughts and if possible your thoughts on my 2 prospective lists (one even including a dragon mage) on my blog, love your input Curu!

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:11 am 
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Sihca wrote:
Regen is a massive concern and the more I read on the forum about the benefits of the frosty bird essentially having T7 that is only true once its in CC. Yes base line stats it is better but the fire phoenix is starting to looking highly appealing to. S4 breath flaming attacks over unit it flies over and when it dies on every turn roll a d6..yes on a 1-2 its gone forever (like any other model) but on a 3-5 pie plate S4 attacks on point of death and a 6 resurrects with d3+2 wounds. Mini dragon for less points than either a real dragon or even the frostheart. Just a thought.


I'm not too sold on the Flamespyre (FSP) having thought about it as a mount for my Anointed it just doesn't pull it's weight. I'm not sure about your meta but in my meta there's alot of tough stuff and alot of +1 AS. S4 Flame Trail just don't cut it and the FSP only has 3S5 while the Frostheart Phoenix (FHP) on the other hand has 4S6 which is massive especially high armoured units. One weakness of our army is that all our "elven" units only have T3 which is easy to wound - that -1S reduces the amount of dice we need to roll for armour saves. Another note it's also easier to kill a FSP than a FHP but the FSP does have reborn (assuming you can roll a 6).

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:21 pm 
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pk-ng wrote:
Sihca wrote:
Regen is a massive concern and the more I read on the forum about the benefits of the frosty bird essentially having T7 that is only true once its in CC. Yes base line stats it is better but the fire phoenix is starting to looking highly appealing to. S4 breath flaming attacks over unit it flies over and when it dies on every turn roll a d6..yes on a 1-2 its gone forever (like any other model) but on a 3-5 pie plate S4 attacks on point of death and a 6 resurrects with d3+2 wounds. Mini dragon for less points than either a real dragon or even the frostheart. Just a thought.


I'm not too sold on the Flamespyre (FSP) having thought about it as a mount for my Anointed it just doesn't pull it's weight. I'm not sure about your meta but in my meta there's alot of tough stuff and alot of +1 AS. S4 Flame Trail just don't cut it and the FSP only has 3S5 while the Frostheart Phoenix (FHP) on the other hand has 4S6 which is massive especially high armoured units. One weakness of our army is that all our "elven" units only have T3 which is easy to wound - that -1S reduces the amount of dice we need to roll for armour saves. Another note it's also easier to kill a FSP than a FHP but the FSP does have reborn (assuming you can roll a 6).


Sure, I'd agree that it doesn't cut it against MC/high T & AS...but that's not its role. I don't think I even see it as a regen-buster. It's purely an amazing RnF killer. Against elves, scaven, OnG, daemons, empire, possibly bretts, undead...it has a very happy role. It's only really ogres, WoC where it's less useful, and ogres would have gone for the old dragon too. I think with the annointed on top it does struggle to make back its points, but without it's pretty solid. And if you don't take an Archmage for whatever reason (combat prince, loremaster, whatever), then the lack of Spell Number 6 can risk our elites getting bogged down in a steadfast fight.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:22 pm 
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@Sihca - I will get around to it as soon as I have time! There`s a lot of threads which I should`ve replied to that I haven`t. I consider 3 RBT to be vital to providing enough of a threat. The firebird doesn`t help that much against regen since its ranged attack is in the movement phase and ASF Elves strike before it in combat.

@pk-ng - Agreed, 1+ and tough nutters are all over the place. Ice Phoenix is clearly better in my opinion ;)

@Ferny - I don`t need RnF killers ;)

For the points issue I think I will try a rather original approach. Having thought about the Sisters of Avelorn I want to try the Handmaiden hero choice. She is rather expensive, but for her 95 points she does grant the unit with quite a lot more firepower. Essentially you want them to move at all times. Being able to do this without having a negative modifier to hit grants a lot more precise shots: on long range it`s the difference between 4+ and 3+ while on short range it`s the difference between 3+ and 2+, effectively halving your amount of misses. Furthermore it`s also a guaranteed stand and shoot. I have considered the Reaver Bow + Potion of Strength for losing an RBT, but the rules (RAW) at the moment doesn`t allow her to shoot three times when she`s in a unit without multiple shots. Would be interesting though, 3 S8 shots at BS7 is very powerful.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Curu - how would you compare a tooled up prince on tooled up griffon to the Annointed on Frostheart? It'd be cheaper and on T1 charge would get one more S6 attack in (with ASF!) from the griffon and stronger attacks from the Prince. It's a lot less resiliant - but to follow on from a comment you made about the losses to the Star Dragon build - sometimes you just need balls out power. Tag teaming it with the rare frostheart would help with that, and with so many flyers you've still got target saturation.

It doesn't squeeze in two frosthearts though. What are your tactics with both? Tag team them together? One each with other flyers? Support infantry? I see the value in one a hundred times, but how do you plan to get the most out of two?

RE: Pheonix Guard deathstar - why PG? The banner is great but it doesn't snergise as well with them as with other elites as they've already got 4++ wd. I see how hard a horde of 40 would hit - especially with shadows, but I think any horde of our elites would be scary to anyone. The obvious alternative is WL, which need less magical support, especially with the banner, which would free you up to take a different lore on the Archmage. Shadow is excellent, but very much a support lore with game changing benefits in combat and a very useful -D3 T for shooting, but it's less use early game and hasn't got much in the way of direct damage output (unit effect, MM) so in some ways is less flexible than other lores (e.g. High). And on the topic of magical support, would you consider a loremaster instead of an Archmage? Does your choice of elite affect your decision on this? The way I see it, Loremasters offer excellent support (like Shadow AM) but more flexibility (like High).

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Hello Curu, I am planning to use the combined arms list for a local league, its 2400 points with comp: max 3 flyers, max 4 warmachines, 45 shooting models, max unit size 450, no characters. I made little changes based on comp and the models I have.

Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The other Trickster’s Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 172 (you have 170, not sure who is wrong!)
Characters = 769

8 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 214
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
10 Archers = 100
10 Archers = 100
Core = 604

20 Swordmasters, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 340
15 White Lions, Musician, Champion with Gem of Sunfire = 235
Special = 575

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
1 Frosthearth Phoenix = 240
Rare = 450

Army Total = 2398

The mayor change here is the increase size of WL and inclusion of the champion with gem to deal with etereals/monster as option for the lack of sisters.
I hope this work ok

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:09 pm 
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@Ferny - I don`t see much point in a Prince on a griffon unless you`re going for air-spam. The Griffon is, by its very nature, a very offensive unit. Thus, a rider exhibiting the same traits synergizes better with the mount. To this end, a Noble works just as well as a a Prince: give him the Star Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness and you`re good to go! This is a formidable unit on the charge, able to kill and break a lot of units in the game. The Anointed on a Frostheart Phoenix on the contrary is a very defensive unit with mediocre damage output. If you really wanna go flying circus, I think anointed + frostheart + noble on griffon is the best approach, along with dual phoenix rares. To play a list like this I think you simply need to go all out and have your entire army as mobile and hitty as powerful, ref my former suggestion. Otherwise the lack of target saturation will leave your monsters in a very poor spot against war machines.

As for the PG deathstar, when going for a unit like that I think durability is the most important and even though the BOTWD grants a lot of that PG are simply way harder to shift than our other elites.

@Tremblant - I think you have misunderstood what the Gem of Sunfire actually does. Re-read the entrance. If you want Lions to perform a similar role, I think the Banner of Eternal Flames is better. still though, as Lions hit at I5 this effect won`t help your other, ASF-hitting troops (most notably the cavbus).

As for the BSB I did go over his points yesterday but given my rather poor ability to add simple numbers recently I will do so again ;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:09 pm 
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So what does the Gem of Sunfire do in Ecuador? D:


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Tremblant wrote:
15 White Lions, Musician, Champion with Gem of Sunfire = 235

The mayor change here is the increase size of WL and inclusion of the champion with gem to deal with etereals/monster as option for the lack of sisters.


Champions can now only take magic weapons or armour apparently, so the gem would be out. Also, it only works on already flaming attacks, which you can (and maybe should) have on the WL unit through the banner, though it doesn't look to be on your list. I'd say even if you could take the gem on your champ, it's a very expensive perk, working on only 2A in a unit with a high to wound rate anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Ferny - I don`t see much point in a Prince on a griffon unless you`re going for air-spam. The Griffon is, by its very nature, a very offensive unit. Thus, a rider exhibiting the same traits synergizes better with the mount. To this end, a Noble works just as well as a a Prince: give him the Star Lance and Potion of Foolhardiness and you`re good to go! This is a formidable unit on the charge, able to kill and break a lot of units in the game. The Anointed on a Frostheart Phoenix on the contrary is a very defensive unit with mediocre damage output. If you really wanna go flying circus, I think anointed + frostheart + noble on griffon is the best approach, along with dual phoenix rares. To play a list like this I think you simply need to go all out and have your entire army as mobile and hitty as powerful, ref my former suggestion. Otherwise the lack of target saturation will leave your monsters in a very poor spot against war machines.

As for the PG deathstar, when going for a unit like that I think durability is the most important and even though the BOTWD grants a lot of that PG are simply way harder to shift than our other elites.


RE: Deathstar - fair enough, makes sense :).

RE: flying circus - I've never gone flying circus, but as a crude interpretation of what you've laid out - if the noble/griffon is offensive and the annointed/frostheart is defensive, and all out attack is better for flying circus, then why not keep the noble/griffon for heroes and additionally take a prince/griffon in lords? He's clearly more vulnerable than the annointed/frostheart, but is maximising the attacks (and saving some points as a bonus). Or do you need 3 pheonixes/the solidity of the annointed/frostheart in place of the prince/griffon?

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