Re: Path To Glory - ETC All Games Up!
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:06 pm
I have this thread monitored, i.e. if someone replies here I get an email and check in
To be honest John, if you want to become a better player in any miniature game you have to be willing to suck it up and accept some hard truths. Some certainties exist in every game. In good ol' ETC Warhammer for example Daemons being broken is one of them. There is just no arguing this point because the numbers and results speak for themselves. I find that putting it across bluntly often serves a double purpose: You come off as bombastic enough so people actually hear what you have to say. Furthermore though, and perhaps more importantly, the ones speaking up against you are more often than not the ones who don't have the mindset it takes to really become a top player. Of course it's not that simple and even the best players make mistakes at times, but generalized that is how I perceive this. Depending on Wargame and players the "general player mindset" can vary and frequently the opposition of "fundamental truths" about the Wargame in question will vary accordingly. For example in our internal ETC team discussions this year we rarely disagreed. When we did, we simply played it out. No long discussions on whether X could beat Y when we know that 9 times out of 10 Y comes out on top given that the player wielding Y knows what he's doing. I think our results this year point to us being on the right track. It takes a lot of time to build a skilled group of players. As long as the games we play aren't at the highest level, our conclusions will inherently be faulty. Given another year or two I believe Norway could have been world class, assuming the motivation held up (that is a big if though).
Please get in touch with me if you consider getting into Warmahordes John. I'll start going abroad for tournaments in March/April I believe (I am moving in the meantime, hence the delay! Otherwise I'd love to go in December and February already, some great tournaments happening in the Netherlands and UK at those times!) so I imagine this miniature hobby will get really exciting quite soon again. Stateside is also something I'm strongly considering and of course, I still have many Ulthuanites I hope to meet in person despite not being into Warhammer anymore
@sparky - Sadly, no. Personally, I don't believe in 9th. I just don't see the future. Perhaps it lives for a year or two but without company backing I can't see the system recruiting players at a higher rate than losing players. Inevitably it will die out, assuming my assumptions are right. For all I know 9th may be the best edition of Warhammer we've ever seen. I'm just not willing to take the risk. I spend too much time on silly little tin things (I would've said soldiers, but have you seen Warmachine Colossals?) to waste a year or potentially two at something which I truly believe is a life support solution. Warmahordes on the other hand is growing at an insane rate and with the established environment worldwide I really can just jump straight into it. The game itself has thoroughly surprised me as well, in 3 distinct ways especially compared to Warhammer:
1) Almost all matchups are extremely close. RPS effects exist here as well, but in practice my experience from ~100 games thus far (including 4 tournaments) is that the vast majority of games really are games. Much unlike Warhammer where many matchups boiled down to avoiding a big loss, capitalizing on a good matchup or trying lucky shots to have a game.
2) The strategical depth. The degrees of freedom in this game and the nature of the scenarios, threat ranges and special rules make it extremely complex and near-impossible to predict. This in turn creates a dynamic where you have to plan long in advance and be prepared for some crazy moves. Having experience from 40k I am very surprised a skirmish game manages this to such a degree.
3) The ability to win consistently without relying on dice. This is a bit ironic seeing as in Warmahordes you instantly lose if your general dies, but what I find in practice is that in this game, if you are better than your opponent you can reliably win the game without fearing dimensional cascade, failed LD-test deathstar off the table etc. I find that with careful list creation, a specifically tailored reliable playstyle and experience, Warmahordes is a game where the skill difference is a huge factor in determining the outcome and luck less so.
Lastly I would like to note that playing with a clock suits me perfectly. I have lost count of the times I've played Warhammer and had my opponent literally spent over 2/3rds of the time we have. That is inherently unfair and some of the biggest "time thieves" I knew from Warhammer now often struggle with the clock in Warmachine. It feels like justice has been served
As far as Norway is concerned I think we will be sending a 9th team next year. A couple of cities have gaming groups which play it. I don't know how many there are because it's nearly as dead as AoS in Oslo where I play. KoW is the alternative here for those wanting to play ranked infantry fantasy battle wargames. Conceptually I'm a fan of KoW and I hope the game succeeds. Having said that I haven't tried neither it nor 9th at all so game differences are not considered.
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Wow, that was a way longer reply than I had intended. Hope it will be worth the read for y'all
To be honest John, if you want to become a better player in any miniature game you have to be willing to suck it up and accept some hard truths. Some certainties exist in every game. In good ol' ETC Warhammer for example Daemons being broken is one of them. There is just no arguing this point because the numbers and results speak for themselves. I find that putting it across bluntly often serves a double purpose: You come off as bombastic enough so people actually hear what you have to say. Furthermore though, and perhaps more importantly, the ones speaking up against you are more often than not the ones who don't have the mindset it takes to really become a top player. Of course it's not that simple and even the best players make mistakes at times, but generalized that is how I perceive this. Depending on Wargame and players the "general player mindset" can vary and frequently the opposition of "fundamental truths" about the Wargame in question will vary accordingly. For example in our internal ETC team discussions this year we rarely disagreed. When we did, we simply played it out. No long discussions on whether X could beat Y when we know that 9 times out of 10 Y comes out on top given that the player wielding Y knows what he's doing. I think our results this year point to us being on the right track. It takes a lot of time to build a skilled group of players. As long as the games we play aren't at the highest level, our conclusions will inherently be faulty. Given another year or two I believe Norway could have been world class, assuming the motivation held up (that is a big if though).
Please get in touch with me if you consider getting into Warmahordes John. I'll start going abroad for tournaments in March/April I believe (I am moving in the meantime, hence the delay! Otherwise I'd love to go in December and February already, some great tournaments happening in the Netherlands and UK at those times!) so I imagine this miniature hobby will get really exciting quite soon again. Stateside is also something I'm strongly considering and of course, I still have many Ulthuanites I hope to meet in person despite not being into Warhammer anymore
@sparky - Sadly, no. Personally, I don't believe in 9th. I just don't see the future. Perhaps it lives for a year or two but without company backing I can't see the system recruiting players at a higher rate than losing players. Inevitably it will die out, assuming my assumptions are right. For all I know 9th may be the best edition of Warhammer we've ever seen. I'm just not willing to take the risk. I spend too much time on silly little tin things (I would've said soldiers, but have you seen Warmachine Colossals?) to waste a year or potentially two at something which I truly believe is a life support solution. Warmahordes on the other hand is growing at an insane rate and with the established environment worldwide I really can just jump straight into it. The game itself has thoroughly surprised me as well, in 3 distinct ways especially compared to Warhammer:
1) Almost all matchups are extremely close. RPS effects exist here as well, but in practice my experience from ~100 games thus far (including 4 tournaments) is that the vast majority of games really are games. Much unlike Warhammer where many matchups boiled down to avoiding a big loss, capitalizing on a good matchup or trying lucky shots to have a game.
2) The strategical depth. The degrees of freedom in this game and the nature of the scenarios, threat ranges and special rules make it extremely complex and near-impossible to predict. This in turn creates a dynamic where you have to plan long in advance and be prepared for some crazy moves. Having experience from 40k I am very surprised a skirmish game manages this to such a degree.
3) The ability to win consistently without relying on dice. This is a bit ironic seeing as in Warmahordes you instantly lose if your general dies, but what I find in practice is that in this game, if you are better than your opponent you can reliably win the game without fearing dimensional cascade, failed LD-test deathstar off the table etc. I find that with careful list creation, a specifically tailored reliable playstyle and experience, Warmahordes is a game where the skill difference is a huge factor in determining the outcome and luck less so.
Lastly I would like to note that playing with a clock suits me perfectly. I have lost count of the times I've played Warhammer and had my opponent literally spent over 2/3rds of the time we have. That is inherently unfair and some of the biggest "time thieves" I knew from Warhammer now often struggle with the clock in Warmachine. It feels like justice has been served
As far as Norway is concerned I think we will be sending a 9th team next year. A couple of cities have gaming groups which play it. I don't know how many there are because it's nearly as dead as AoS in Oslo where I play. KoW is the alternative here for those wanting to play ranked infantry fantasy battle wargames. Conceptually I'm a fan of KoW and I hope the game succeeds. Having said that I haven't tried neither it nor 9th at all so game differences are not considered.
---
Wow, that was a way longer reply than I had intended. Hope it will be worth the read for y'all