Path To Glory - ETC All Games Up!
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Author:  Koval [ Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

I keep coming back to that list, and just came up with a crazy idea. The list has an 18" bubble of Ld 10, and of the major threats is stubborn and the other is sometimes. Is 95 points worth the re-roll? Normally I count on my BSBs for some combat potential or to hold a magic banner, but this one isn't giving any. It probably is, but everything is worth looking into.

As for flexible lists, I'm not sure if there's a completely different one that works. We need damage projection, so that means 4 bolt throwers, lots of archers, and some access to magic missiles. I want to squeeze a Loremaster in there, but it's a lot of points and a bit much of a dicehog for a supporting caster, and I don't know if a L2 with the book would cut it as the army's main wizard on that scene.

We also need a big solid combat block. I'm probably more flexible when it comes to which than you are. Sword Masters have a place, but they just make the list better at matchups it's good at and worse at one's it's not. Phoenix Guard have the opposite effect, and may be the better option. Maybe there's a way to get a character (Loremaster? BSB?) in there with MR2 so the unit can take the Razor Standard.

In the rest of core, we need a few small cavalry units. We want to save room for as many bows as possible, so we want to keep these cheap. Are Silver Helms worth it over Reavers here? 2-3 units of reavers would trim a few points for more bows, and their increased usefulness against war machines would help a lot in matchups where this list is forced to being aggressive.

My only last comment is on the build for the Prince himself. I don't know if things like a 4+ ward or a 1+ against shooting are worth the points. It's hardly a radical deviation from the list being discussed, but it could save 40-50 points if we need them.

EDIT: I'll keep my ideas up, but when I made a list with the ideas I had put up, it only had 17 Phoenix Guard with no champion, which I feel is too small for this effect.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

Going into a game without a BSB is suicidal. Lions get hit with Doom and Darkness, you have to let it through to stop purple sun on the Dragon, something kills an RBT within 6" => all Lions + L4 book mage gone. While I agree that having no equipment on the BSB at all seems extreme, taking away the re-rolls is not worth the ~100 points you get.

I too have been pondering how to make flexible lists. What I experimented with previous to draft 0 coming out was largely PG + bus variants, but now it's impossible due to RBTs being comped so hard. I had reached a couple of builds I really believed in but didn't get to play as the drafts came out so quickly and made them illegal (for the time being, at least).

I agree with a lot of your points, especially regarding core and prince equipment. It's easy to say though because I haven't playtested anything like this. I also noticed a Teclis + Light Coven + Star Dragon list in the same tournament and while it didn't reach quite an impressive result, it got a decent finish as well. In a nutshell it's the same kind of build where you insert X (X = ranged damage) and have a Dragon to counter things trying to take points away from X.

The main problem with making variations of this list is that there are so few points to play around with. The list is extremely min-maxed. I think I'd prefer to drop the Prince's equipment a bit, which would (hopefully) yield points for a Lothern Sea Helm with Shield of the Merwyrm and a ward save of some sorts on the L4. I doubt it'd be enough though, points-wise. You could probably do one but not both.

Author:  Dragon fire [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

I have thought about combining the dragon with a light AM and a Loremaster.
So something along the line of this

Prince, SD, HA, Shield, Lion cloak, Golden crown, Star lance, dr. helm, TOTS 610
AM, light, lvl 4, scroll 245
Loremaster, Shield of myrwyrm, biting blade, powerstone. 275

Noble BSB, HA, Ench shield, reaver bow, PoS 149

17 archers, mus 180
2x5 reavers, 160
10 helms, shields, FCG 260

4RBT 280
1 Frosty 240

Perhaps a bit thin on the equipment on Loremaster and AM, but that can be handled by removing a RBT. I'm not sure about core setup, another possibility is 6 helms with a high helm and the rest goes into archers for a larger bunker. I've also thought about putting the BSB on an eagle but I'm not convinced.

I really like light in combination with a SD. Pha's has a great synergy with the dragon. S5 banishment is quite good as well.

I have not played anything like this before so quite unsure how to make a good setup.

Author:  Galharen [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

Where is your army?
Loremaster and AM in archers?

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

@Dragon fire - I have indeed been considering such a build as well, albeit with L1s instead of the Loremaster. The problem is however that you quickly run out of places to have them in. You could do something like the list I posted, swapping an RBT and some equipment on the Prince for a 2nd L1 (and thus getting S6 Banishment along with 3 RBTs whilst having a Dragon and WL for counter-charges). It could be worth a try, but I think a Loremaster will be pushing it too far.

I also think that regardless of how you make such a list, White Lions are a necessity. With your suggested list, you are basically putting 700 points into a 19-man unit with no save to speak of and no BOTWD. That is an extremely juicy target that a number of lists can handle with ease.

@Galharen - I have actually tried a couple of games using MSU Archers + Shadow Warriors as a swapping bunker. It can work, but you need strong counter-charge elements. You also need a number of units so that you can continue jumping the mages if the bunker you are currently in is taking significant damage.

Author:  Koval [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

Curu: You're absolutely right about the lack of points in that list. We could only shave about 50 points from the Prince and still have a decent build. Beyond that, our only options are shrinking the combat block, eliminating characters, or taking less bolt throwers. I'm not thrilled with any of those options, really. I don't use sea helms much, but if we switch the dragon to an older style of build, we will have the points. What is going to be attacking the L4? Anything that can reliable pick him out of the unit has to get really close to do it. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it's not suicidal if he hangs out in the archers.

Dragon Fire: I think the transition to Light for the blastiness is a very good idea, but I'm worried about points. Even a small group of White Lions would be better than the phoenix. I also agree with Curu on the two wizards over the Loremaster if the archmage has Light.

How does this look?

Prince: SD, heavy armor, OTS, Golden Crown, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield: 596
Archmage: L4, Light, Book: 275
Mage: Light, Scroll: 110
Mage: Light: 85
Sea Helm: BSB, Merwyrm: 140
30 Archers: FCG: 330
5 Reavers: Champion: 90
5 Reavers: Champion: 90
5 Reavers: Champion: 90
18 White Lions: FCG, BotWD: 314
4 RBTs: 280

I threw this together pretty quickly, and there are plenty of tweaks to be made. My biggest concern is the size of the White Lions. Rolling the BSB back to a Noble would let you add 4 more, and may be worth it. It's also still a lot of points in that one big brick of T3 with no save, but I'm beginning to think that might be an unavoidable weakness of the style of list.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

Koval - Precisely. Your suggested list is, in my opinion, likely better off by losing an RBT - the WL are simply too small I believe. I think dropping the Sea Helm to Noble with next to no equipment is also favourable. In total this should be enough to boost the Lions back up to a size where they actually threaten something.

The question at this point becomes fairly obvious: Is the Star Dragon the best support here? The alternative is swapping the beast out for:
- 2 Eagles
- 1 Frostheart
- 1 mage upgraded to Loremaster
- Small upgrades here and there

Which basically boils down to Sweden's list from 2013. The meta has changed however so it's hard to say. I can see why the original list has High Magic, with the book +5 to cast is absolutely brutal and in addition to WBW, Arcane and Fiery being game breakers, Hand of Glory is also really good here seeing as Archers or Lions are always good targets. Being able to get spells that have both the small effects, such as hand and apotheosis, alongside getting the big killers is really valuable (which is also largely the reason why Shadow and Death are so strong: Miasma, Enfeebling, Soulblight etc go so well because opponents have to let them pass to stop the killers: Withering, Pit, Winrazor, Purple Fun, Doom and Runawayness.

Author:  alenui [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

I was thinking Reaver bow on the BSB. Swap talisman of preservation to golden crown for the points.

I'd take Heavens on the Lvl 1 I think over fireball there is a good chance of a MM or comet if you want one and Iceshard is a strong default.

Author:  Koval [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

I'm hesitant to cut a RBT, because they're the best shooting in the list. It's 21 White Lions and 4 RBTs or 26 and 3. It's really more about play style and preference at this point.

As for cutting the dragon, that would leave us with a light council, archer and reaver core, four bolt throwers, and a medium-large combat block. That's not a hybrid list anymore. That's a purely defensive list. It might be better than the one we've worked out, but it's a radical shift. I personally don't think it's better, because there will always be armies we can't outshoot. Neither list will do very well against them, but I would expect the dragon to be better. I don't have a ton of experience backing that up, though.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

@alenui - I find the Reaver Bow to be a better item on paper than in action. If you have the points left over then sure, it's not bad, but this is not such a case unfortunately.

@Koval - Don't forget that you also gain a Phoenix and, should you wish to do so, you can take a medium sized bus in core (since you no longer have Hand of Glory, a bigger unit of Archers isn't necessarily -that- good). You also get a LOT more drops and an Eagle or two (depending on preference). It's a different list indeed.

The Dragon is extremely powerful, but it's also an aweful lot of points compared to the Frostheart. In some matchups where a biggie simply has to hide, that can be a significant drawback.

Author:  Andros123 [ Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

Very interesting lists.
I think the Star dragon needs to be in a list with a frost phoenix, in order to make the most out of it. As you say Curu, it is an awful lot of points having parked away in certain match ups.
I think it will work fine with a light council, SD, Phoenix, big archer bunker protected by units of silver helms.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - First End Times Games Up!

The problem with taking a Phoenix alongside the Star Dragon is that you have suddenly invested nearly 1000 points in units that don't provide anything in terms of damaging the enemy at range. While it's an interesting concept, it would necessarily be significantly different from what we're seeing here.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - IS done, SD returns! BR vs EMP 05.08

Ok, time for a report again! Yesterday I tried out a list that is a wee bit on the wacky side of things. Basically, I wanted to see what we can do without the banner under the current ETC restrictions seeing as it's one of the few ways to make deathstar + rbts work. What does this mean? Well, it means we suddenly have a niche to fill that a highly uncommon special character brings to the table... Enter Tyrion!

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Beastmen (ETC Draft 1) .::.

My list:
Tyrion: 410
Prince on Barded Steed: Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Potion of Foolhardiness, 282
Archmage on Steed: Level 4, Lore of High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Crown of Command, 330
Noble on Barded Steed: Battle Standard Bearer, Shield, Dragon Armour, Razor Standard, 167
Mage on Steed: Level 2, Lore of Beasts, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon 160

17 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 421
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Champion, 2x 90

Frostheart Phoenix: 240
3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 3x 70

Army Total: 2400

His list:
Doombull, Arabyan Carpet, Armour of Destiny, Great Weapon, Mark of Tzeentch
L4, Talisman of Preservation, Herdstone (General), Lore of Beasts
L1 Shadow, Scroll
Wargor BSB, +1S banner, 2+ AS, Mark of Nurgle

5x5 Raiders, Mark of Slaanesh
8 Raiders, Mark of Slaanesh

Bestigors with LD banner
6 Pumbas

Tyrion is a unique character: He is very expensive but he also brings a lot we don't usually need: Killiness we can obtain cheaper, mr which is useless and survivability we can get with a normal prince, again, cheaper. However, in a banner-less list, his 50x50 base means that he occupies the entire front rank next to command and we can take the normal cavprince as well, meaning 8 S7 ASF attacks. Furthermore his MR2 is really nice with high magic without the banner and lastly flaming + breath weapon is very good vs regen.

So basically I set out to play my first ever game on Universal Battle to try this wacky-wack list out. I quickly got an opponent which was really nice, featuring a Beastmen army with some of the new tricks allowed by draft 1. I had no idea how these lists play in action, I had only seen them on paper and as such, I was eager to try this out.

I quickly realized hiding from Slugtongue was impossible to I put everything in the middle and RBTs flanking his anticipated no-deploy side. He went opposite my RBTs which I expected. Slugtongue killed 2 RBTs and 3 Helms but, to my relief, the Frostie went unharmed. I managed to grab T1 and off we went.

// HE T1 //

I march up hard center and put the pressure on him ASAP. Scroll is drawn.

The Eagle is Tyrion. I could not find an appropriate model on UB. His Gors are center, Bestigors off-center and Pumbas far left. Doombull next to a lake. 3 Raider units in Ambush.

// BM T1 //

Raiders block Helms. Slugtongue jumps out. Doombull flies up. Pumbas + Bestigors move up. Magic sees me contain everything of imporance as I don't intend to charge Raiders and can thus let Curse of Anraheir pass.


// HE T2 //

The big problem here is I cannot deal with his Doombull just yet and I cannot tackle multiple threats at once. The plan is thus to spend Reavers to delay him, send Frost into Gors and catapult the Helmbus by ways of Walk Between Worlds far off to his rear. The Frostie, needing 4+ or something, manages triple 1's and fails its charge. This put me in an awkward position as it is now within 7" of the Raiders, meaning the bus cannot walk past it 5 wide. I reform 4-wide and go through anyway, hoping boosted Walk can't be stopped. Magic goes up 6-1 and my opponent channels. Oh my. I roll 5 dice and get a 6 and with the Book re-roll I manage IF and the bus is safe - for me, dangerous for him.

Notice how Reavers are deployed to ensure the Frostheart can escape the Doombull regardless of whiffing its flee roll

// BM T2 //

Ambush rolls crucially give my opponent a '6' and Raiders land to block Helms. Sigh. Doombull into Frost => Flee. Magic sees a Gorgon summoned.


// HE T3 //

The bus can't commit to this fight. I reform and move out, the Princes + L4 form a unit of their own to keep blocks + Doom in front arc. He has nothing to threaten me with at range and I take care to get everything out of Gorgon front arc. Magic sees me destroy Doombull Carpet. He stops Fiery.


// BM T3 //

He moves to close the net but at this point in time I'm not worried because my Frost is safe, Doombull is largely neutralized and the Bestigors and Pumbas are far away.


// HE T4 //

Frost moves to land besides Gorgon. Characters move back inside bus. I make a big mistake as my Reavers are not outside Gorgon front arc. Magic - Walk on Frost takes it behind the gors.


// BM T4 //

Gorgon into Reavers. Raiders block helms. Magic - can't remember. Reavers hold vs Gorgon, much to my dismay. Having them flee and him go off the table (frenzy) would be perfect!


// HE T5 //

Helms into blockers, Frost into Gors. Reavers conga-block both Doombull and Pumbas. Magic, can't remember. Helms win and overrun. Gorgon wins and reforms vs bus. Frost kills BSB in a lucky strike.


// BM T5 //

Doombull + Pumbas into Reavers. Gorgon blocks bus (I failed to run far enough to prevent this). Magic Curse on bus. Frostheart loses as he scores 2W and I fluff, but hold on re-roll.


// HE T6 //

I decide to charge Gorgon since an overrun means I contact his Doombull, which I believe Tyrion can kill with Sunfang. Magic sees me land Fiery on Pumbas, 4W. I don't kill the Gorgon however, Curse is just brutal as my 2 princes, bsb, 2 mages and 6 helm attacks or so fail to do 4W. This is bad news. I have to think a bit and then reform to have my mage on the corner, this prevents pumbas from hitting Helms and reduces frontage the Bestigors can strike. I am hoping the L4 gets to survive due to lack of different I-steps, meaning I will be stubborn. I also hope Helms will survive to half points.

In a lucky break however the Frostheart wins and he fails his LD9 steadfast. I run the Gors down.


// BM T6 //

Everything goes into Helms. Magic sees me save dice to stop Savage Beast on the Doombull but he gets double 6's. The IF however is cascade and the L4 goes down the drain. Fiery does some more wounds. In combat I hack and slash but it's not enough by far and he hacks back: Mage dies, BSB dies, Helms die. Crucially, Tyrion, Prince + L4 survive. The break test comes up 5, 5 and the game is over!


Adding up VPs, we have killed roughly 1200 points both. A 10-10 draw!

// Evaluation //

The new Beastmen in this draft are dangerous. They have some threats that are just super hard to deal with. Slugtongue taking out units before the game has even started is very brutal to our RBTs in particular, mark of Nurgle on various units make them a lot more durable and Slaanesh Raiders are perfect for their job. Lastly the 3++ Doombull is a true pain - at S8 he makes a joke out of the armour we usually rely so much on.

T1 for me was ok, I think, but perhaps a tad bit too risky. I should also have paid closer attention to his Doombull's range and possibilities, letting him escape my arc was not intentional. T2 - Frostheart charge is good and the Helms' move is a necessity given the situation. I was lucky however, but so was he when the Raiders came to save his Gors.

After this we had a couple of turns where we danced around and not much happened. I was very confident during this period as I knew the game was still 10-10. The big blunder with the Reavers however was really bad as it allowed his Gorgon to take out a chaff unit whilst also placing itself in a very dangerous position, as evidenced by his T5 block.

The end game was just super messy, but I felt my actions were largely forced. True, I could've elected not to charge the Gorgon but I had hopes of taking out the Doombull - this would've given me a win I believe. Possibly a bit too risky.

The list I played suffer from a number of issues: First and foremost its inability to deal with blockers effectively and get the killy princes into meaningful combat. Secondly however, dangerous flyers (which are common in lots of armies under this draft) pose a huge threat which greatly reduces its mobility. I don't know if this approach is viable - regardless of BOTWD - given the current state of things. Imagine a second Doombull here (or even 3 or 4!), even without flying it would be extremely hard for me to deal with.

Author:  John Rainbow [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Nice work on getting to know UB. You'll be a pro before you know it!

I'm curious why you didn't go for it on T2? You could charge the blocking unit with the helms and then reform towards the left (Bestigor I think) while the Frosty either charges or blocks the unit in front of him next to the small house. Your Reavers could also block out some units on the left. I don't see how this was a bad idea? Maybe you get charged by the Doombull but after the reform he is in your front and likely to either die to the Princes or get beat by Tyrion in a challenge.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Raiders on T2? Well, Bestigors are no fun to eat to the face. Doombull with 3++ is something I cannot handle. Perhaps Tyrion eventually wins the grind, but how? He has to chew through other challenges first and meanwhile I can't tank those S6 bestigors (they were a ton and they had mark of nurgle) and S8 doombull attacks. True, the Bestigors could've been chaffed by Reavers. Perhaps this would be best, presenting the flank to the Doombull. After all he isn't stubborn so if Tyrion can tank his damage he'll likely fall to combat resolution.

It's an interesting take on it. The problem is if he doesn't go for it and reforms Gors deep instead. They are likely steadfast despite Helms making a big impact. At this point, I have Doombull, Bestigors and Pumbas in my rear and no flexibility. Committing that early seems unnecessarily risky when I have his scroll out, my magic is way stronger at a distance (a single cast of Fiery on Bestigors completely changes this game, same for Arcane on Doombull) and I have a movement advantage. Bear in mind that had his Raiders not arrived, I would have been in a highly lucrative spot T3 ;)

Blocking the Bestigors and perhaps even hoping for an overrun with the bus could've been interesting. Possibly a better outcome. If memory serves, the overrun was 10+ from the Raiders. My main worry was becoming stuck though with 2 blocks and doombull breathing down my neck. It's impossible to tell how this would pan out, hence why I chose what I consider to be the lower risk approach.

Author:  Koval [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

I don't play ETC, but 2700 points for the new Beastmen is absurd. Even with the old unmarked chariot spam, that's too much. Now two 3++ Doombulls and pestigors is tough to deal with without giving them 300 extra points because of comp politics.

Anyway, back to elves. This may just be the hindsight talking, but why didn't you charge/block the bestigors with the Phoenix turn 2? I know the 6 was a little lucky, but he had three units in reserve, and, while I'm not as good with angles in pictures as I am on a table, I think you could have forced the turn 3 overrun if you had done that and angled the silver helms differently.

As for your list, I have one simple question: Why? I get that you wanted to try it, and I like looking into all options, even the ones that seem stupid. In this case, though, you built a list with some arbitrary restrictions and ended up with a subpar cavprince army. Yes, Tyrion gave you 8 S7 ASF attacks. So? Two princes can do that on the charge, or sustain 4 at S7 and 4 at S6, and both for a lot cheaper. Maybe it's worth it to free up your of your ETC choices.

I'm going to stop myself here, before I go too far off on this matchup in ETC.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Blocking Bestigors with Phoenix is suicide. At S6 they can put on the hurt and if Wyssan's goes through I'm in big trouble. Besides he'd be far away from BSB and General and I lost vs Gors at least once where the re-roll was crucial. I'm not sure what the overrun you are talking about T3 is about though?

The idea behind the list is to have a deathstar alongside RBTs. This allows the army to play defensively against all-out pushy lists because RBTs and L4 High with Book provide enough ranged presence to score small wins unless the opponent pushes. The RBTs are a crucial part of this and with the ETC comp, you basically can't have them with a cavstar unless the cavstar leaves the banner at home.

So, given that you want a cavstar and RBTs, how would you go about doing so? You'd need MR, hard characters, stubborn etc. In a typical 5-wide formation, you need 3 hard characters to keep the squishy ones from making it into the front rank once the champ dies. This is basically impossible to do. You can take 2x 4++ and one with dawnstone, but Tyrion is more survivable than any of those and he takes up 2 spaces, and he provides MR2 AND he provides flaming vs regen. Did I mention 18" IP and a breath weapon?

Trust me, I've had far wackier concepts on the table than this ;)

Author:  Andros123 [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Great to see Tyrion in action :) .
I do have one question though:
I don't understand how you made that move with walk between world on your helm bus. You are only allowed to wheel once, so the move seems illegal to me.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

How is it you are only allowed to wheel once? Is this a blast from the past? ;)

Author:  Andros123 [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Haha, I got it mixed up with charging #-o .
I guess it just seemed to be an awfully long distance even with the 20 inch move. With wheels and everything.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

You are correct, it is way longer than 20". However bear in mind that I had a reform and 9" move first, before the magic phase started. The reform involved going from 5 wide to 4 wide, meaning I gained a couple of inches there as well. In reality then, what you are looking at is a pivot and a 31" move. Makes sense? :)

Author:  Koval [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Phoenix/Bestigors: This is what I get for posting when I'm half asleep. I meant gors. Get the phoenix up in their face to hold them down for the bus to hit. Even if they reform, they're staring down a combo charge from multiple angles.

List: From playing around with it, it's hard to get that level of killiness. You said it right in your initial post, though. You don't need it. You can get enough killiness and can match it in terms of durability, while saving points for a fourth bolt thrower and better magic. You have to accept that your princes "only" have a 5+, but with a level 4 high (and possibly a level 1, if you're really worried about it), that doesn't change anything.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Koval - Getting the 4th RBT is doable now as well: Drop Razor + L2 (I only really want Wyssan's). I'll be more than happy to evaluate an alternative though!

As for blocking Gors, the problem with waiting like that is all the counter-charges that can happen and how close the Pumbas + Bestigors close in. As this game progressed, neither units were able to make an impact on the game until I got stuck on the Gorgon (and even going in against the Gorgon in the first place is a risk that is possibly not worth it in the first place).

Author:  Koval [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

The list I ended up with looked a lot like I imagine your new one does. I just bumped Tyrion down to a prince, shuffled some items, and slipped in a second Level 1.

Fear of countercharges makes a lot of sense, especially as my plan puts the bus right in range of everything scary once they bring down the gors.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Regardless of whether Tyrion or a second Prince is best, I don't think the concept is strong enough, which is also why I posted the report here. It was an interesting run though and it did spark some new ideas ;)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Merry Christmas Ulthuan, and a Happy New Year!

I hope you're enjoying the holidays as much as I am. Lots of spare time, lots of opportunities to get together as a family, lots of Warhammer :D

I would like to thank you all for your contributions to this journey. In the past year I have played over a hundred games and spent countless hours improving my Warhammer skills. I have attended quite a few tournaments, even a few abroad. I hope to do more of this in the future and next year I already know I'll be going to at least England, Sweden and the Czech Republic. Possibly more. Hopefully more! The past year has seen me play a myriad different configurations and play styles. I have also proxied other armies to improve my understanding of the game as a whole. Much of it has been chronicled here, but unfortunately not all of it.

The next year will, in terms of Warhammer, largely be dominated by the ETC2015 for my part. I will play other games as well and I hope I'll have stuff to post here from time to time. The reason I got this far in the first place is because of you. The countless contributions, feedback, critical analysis and questions you present to me provide me with a much needed feedback loop. It has been one of the most important reasons why I've improved this much since I started blogging about Warhammer a few years back. For that, I am very grateful. If you are reading this, you have my thanks. Unfortunately, a lot of people deserving a thank you note from me are not reading this.

Since I started blogging about Warhammer, too many of the formerly dedicated bloggers have stopped posting here. Some are still active members. Some have quit posting here. Some may have quit Warhammer altogether. I miss them, I miss the good times we had while our old book were still out and you could read about a myriad different approaches zealously pursued and perfected around the world. Bad ideas would be discarded, new ones formed, the good ones kept. Those of you who read this and feel that this is you, you know who you are :)

I truly hope and believe 2015 will be a good year for Warhammer and Ulthuan as a community. From what I can tell, comped play is quickly becoming the standard around the world. GW is doing a lot of things to shake up the Warhammer community. This opens up for a plethora of options and approaches that have never before been seen. I believe Ulthuan will be able to capitalize on this, I believe we will see a lot of quality posts and threads here. I will do my best to contribute as I can.

In closing, I would like to ask you all a quick question: Since you started reading about Warhammer endeavours, what have you found to be the most interesting I've written and why?

Alvin wishes you a happy new year!

My puppy is somehow not too interested in Warhammer. Probably for the best, seeing as another club member's dog has already earned the nickname "Destroyer of Skullcrushers" ;) With that, I say thank for you 2014 and wish you all a happy, new year!

Author:  John Rainbow [ Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Hey Curu! Happy New Year to you too! I am certainly with you in thinking 2015 will be a great year - for WFB, for Ulthuan and otherwise.

In terms of your blog, I really appreciate the time you take to create all of it. If there was one thing I think you do really well and that I enjoy/value the most, it would be reading your responses to comments and questions on why you play the way you do in certain situations or why you make certain choices. For me that is the most valuable thing you do and it has helped me learn a lot.

When I first started reading blogs on Ulthuan I remember being very impressed with the writing of Brewmaster D & Seredain. It would be great if they (and others) started posting again but while they are away or gone, I think you and the others who still regularly update their blogs with games and interesting articles are continuing a great tradition on Ulthuan. Long may it continue!

Author:  NexS [ Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Good tidings to you Curu!
I'm not sure that I've provided more assistance to you than you have provided to me! So it is I who should be showing my thanks!

My main joy with uthuan net is how welcoming and friendly people are, and that doesn't relate to just one forum here, but all of them. In regards to your journeys in particular it's the level of analysis that happens post-game that impresses me. Generally, you don't do a turn-by-turn report but a key point report (which works for me). It's the aftermath that's the most important for improvement. Kudos.
The analysis helps me with my game too, and it's helped for sure.

Here's to a fruitful 2015

Author:  Breezly [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

Hey Curu,

As a very long time lurker to most boards, and long time player of Warhammer (got started back in 3rd edition), I can say that I greatly appreciate the time and effort you, and all regular contributors, put in to this hobby and Ulthuan (even though it sank to the bottom of the sea..allegedly). I recently picked up High Elves as my main army in the past few years and reading everyone's take on the game and the thought process behind their armies and what makes them tick. As John Rainbow said above, that experience is what I appreciate the most. I am very much a hobby/fun player so I like to see what everyone plays and then learn about how it works. Like anything, you need to play to learn but seeing what others are doing helps me understand what I can do. I am a hobby/fun player so I try to do the best I can by taking the softest list that is still competitive (experimenting with variations of MSU at the moment).

For my part I will try to contribute more and remain engaged with all HE offerings, perhaps even starting my own army blog to add my own views. I tend not to post because I feel I am not the most knowledgable but I think it is in sharing experiences that knowledge grows. So I will try to be a regular contributor...for what it's worth, to help keep the discussions going.



Author:  Curu Olannon [ Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Path To Glory - Olannon tries UB!

@John Rainbow - Thank you mate! In terms of this blog I am hoping to release a lot more once the lists become official etc. I have a number of lists I've made (approaching 50, I believe, most of which have seen playtesting at least once!) that I intend to discuss here, ranging from the wacky-wacky concepts to the plain old boring ones. Hopefully that "content injection" should spark some debate as I've ventured far beyond anything I've ever done thus far. Triple Flamespyre for example ;)

@NexS - Any little piece of feedback is potentially valuable. You never know what sparks an idea. I once heard a very fascinating story. Whether it's true or not is another question, but here goes: A power supply company was discussing how to de-frost its wires strung up in a very cold area. The wires continuously froze and this damaged the equipment, particularly where the wires are fitted to the poles. Thus far it had been a manual job: Mechanics were sent to literally hack apart the ice, meaning they'd have to climb every pole (50-100 meters apart at worst, meaning many trips for wires stretched over a few miles) up and down. During the feedback phase crazy ideas were encouraged. One member suggested putting honeycombs at the top of the poles to make bears climb up, the idea was that the bears would accidentally break the ice as well. Another member followed up on this story saying they could use a helicopter to deliver all the honeycombs, because if they had to go up themselves they'd be equally far to solving the problem (whether you climb up to place the honeycomb or break the ice doesn't really matter, it's by and large the same amount of work required). At this point another member of the group had a "Eureka moment" as he realized they'd just stumbled upon the perfect solution: The rotor blades from a helicopter causes vibrations in the wires that are powerful enough to break the ice. Problem solved! You never know when your input is valuable, no matter how insignificant and farfetched it is ;)

@Breezly - Thanks a lot for your kind words, my man! I will be looking forward to reading your contributions to this site and hope to see a blog coming up :)


Sheffield Slaughter deadline is today. I honestly cannot bother to playtest anything. At this point, seeing the lists around (UK Masters in particular) I'm kind of regretting signing up. Nevertheless, too late now, I've paid for transportation and accomodation so I'm going for the fun of it. I'll send in the list later today and unless something comes up, it'll look like this:

Imrik, Crown Prince of Caledor: 810
Archmage on Elven Steed: Level 4, Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll, 265
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Spear, Shield, Heavy Armour, 168
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Spear, Crown of Command, 131
Master on Dark Pegasus: Cloak of Twilight, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, 188

16 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 398
10 Glade Guards: Hagbane Tips, Musician, 160

5 Deepwood Scouts: Hagbane Tips, 80

Army Total: 2200

Hopefully it should be strong enough to at least make for some interesting games. I have no ambitions but I'm looking forward to playing in England for the first time :) Hopefully I'll see some of you guys there!

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