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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:13 am 
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Alright so I have a test game scheduled for Thursday where I will face Nagash. I know he will take a casket but not what else. The madness is real!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:55 pm 
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2 quick games vs Nagash today. Both games were massacres in my favour. Short reports coming ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Sheffield Madness! Taking the true Dragonlord out for a test game that turned into two because the first game was so short.


.::. Battle Report - 2200 High Elves vs Undead Legions .::.

My list:

Quote:
Imrik, Crown Prince of Caledor: 810
Archmage on Elven Steed: Level 4, Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll, 265
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Spear, Shield, Heavy Armour, 168
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Spear, Crown of Command, 131
Master on Dark Pegasus: Cloak of Twilight, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, 188

16 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 398
10 Glade Guards: Hagbane Tips, Musician, 160

5 Deepwood Scouts: Hagbane Tips, 80

Army Total: 2200


His list:

Quote:

Nagash
L1 Scroll

Lots of Zombies

Terrorgheist
Casket of Souls


Pre-battle thoughts and deployment

I'm fairly confident in my list's ability to handle this. Summons from Undeath are worth VP, so whatever he throws at me I'll eat. Furthermore, Metal + Hagbane would pound Nagash from T1.

With a total of 3 drops, I deployed everything centrally, even getting a hill for the Archers. Scouts then positioned themselves to snipe whatever I needed them to.

Image
The Hellcannon is a Terrorgheist. The RBT is a Casket. The flame/rock thing is Nagash. Proxy galore!

I grabbed T1.

Image

Image

And then the game was over :D T1 I got a big cast of Golden Hounds on Nagash which took 3 or 4 wounds off of him. Hagbane followed up by nearly killing him, he had 1W left. In his T1 he healed 1 wound back up but he didn't manage anything else. T2 I killed him. Can't remember if it was magic or shooting. I forgot to take Searing Doom here which was a big mistake. Anyway, with the rapid completion of game 1 we decided to go again. His deployment was fascinating, Nagash was basically 100% locked in so it was impossible for me to charge him. I made another big mistake in this game and that was not taking care to zone his Terrorgheist which could skip past my Helms with ease. Despite these 2 big mistakes, I won big. That's End Times madness right there.

Ok so onto the second game. He just went for the same deployment and I made a slight change, positioning the Scouts outside of T1 scream. Again I went first:

Image

This time I split the Pegmaster from the bus to increase my threat range and set up some nasty counter charges for T2. Magic + shooting took 2W off Nagash.

Image

Terrorgheist sacrifices itself to try and snipe my Pegmaster. I don't think I took any wounds at all. Big mistake, in my opinion. Nagash summoned 11 Crypt Horrors with champ (movement tray in front of me :D). Great, more VPs!

Image

Image

Ok so this time around we actually had a bit of tactical moves (barely). I charge the summoned crypt horrors with my super-combo and win big, but not big enough. I also deal a few more wounds to Nagash. In his turn he heals himself + horrors back up some and I fluff in the combat phase, leaving the unit alive and my unit locked. Furthermore, he spawned another big unit at my Helms' flank. I was thus forced to split: I sent the 3 characters out to form a unit (protected by BOTWD he basically can't hurt them) and the Helms reformed and moved away.

In his turn he charged the Helms, I fled. He redirect into the Pegmaster, which also fled.

Image

In my turn I rallied everything. Then I killed Nagash with IF Searing Doom :D

Evaluation

Metal is crazy good in this meta. Poison was also absurdly powerful. Imrik + Cloakpeg works like a charm. Bus is solid.

More games needed. This "comp" is just madness, plain madness. I expect lots of quick games, meaning more beer!

In all seriousness though this tournament will largely be determined by what you meet. In the case of Nagash, everything depends on what your opponent has in terms of models.

Karl Franz and Malekith provide me with some trouble that Nagash does not have: Flying units I do _not_ want to get into combat with. Luckily for me, there are options here. More specifically, Karl Franz has a lot of support that I can kill and the bus can hold him for a long time. For Malekith, Searing Doom is an absolute disaster and, depending on his support, Imrik can be a game changer.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:41 pm 
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How did golden hounds do so much to him? Did he fail all his ward saves?
Also, did you use the new magic rules?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:14 pm 
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I rolled a 5 for hits, wounded on all, he failed all but 1 or something like that for his ward.

We are not playing with End Times magic. Sheffield (luckily) uses "plain old" magic ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Wow. Love it!

Also, I like that undeath summons give you VP. Takes away a little bit of Nagash's OP-ness.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:17 am 
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Im really looking forward to alliance, it will be good to have it booked in the calender. And I have to make a plan for wish tournies I want to attend, I should probly try to do one abroad.

Nice game vs nagash, maybe the New characters arent that op! Ill try to get a game in With a combined force soon, But I probly wont og dragon lord.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:17 am 
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@NexS - A huge difference between searing doom and golden hounds is that the latter is direct damage, which means you can cast it out of close combat. Against Nagash, my priorities are simple: As many dice as possible on Searing Doom. Always. If you cannot cast it, then Golden Hounds. If you have dice left => final trans. It's basically a heroic killing blow. Bearing in mind that you will kill him on average in 6 casts, you can say that 1 cast is worth 167 victory points on average. Putting things in perspective, every cast of final trans on Nagash is worth more than 2 RBTs going down, in terms of pure VP ;)

@Browncastle - Tons of interesting tournaments coming up next year! I would recommend Crusade (April), Swedish National's (SM, May) and Alliance (June). Possibly some English ones as well. I anticipate we will be quite a big group of people going to SM, I would guess around 20 Norwegians :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:07 am 
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thats a very interesting point... i'd never valued casts with VP before. But then, I don't play against one model worth 1000points too often!
Every dispel die he uses is a die that can't be saved to bring annoying things (or in your case, the tasty undead meals) in your way

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:51 am 
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Valuing casts in terms of VP can be a nice tool to determine its viability, doubly so when highly valuable models are facing you.

Ah. Nagash storing dice. Common misconception, he has to store dice during his own magic phase. Big and important difference ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:29 pm 
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Quote:
Summons from Undeath are worth VP, so whatever he throws at me I'll eat


I thought Lore of Undeath summons were not worth any VP, am I mistaken or were you playing a house rule?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Ladril Caledor wrote:
Quote:
Summons from Undeath are worth VP, so whatever he throws at me I'll eat


I thought Lore of Undeath summons were not worth any VP, am I mistaken or were you playing a house rule?


I think its a tourney house rule, big change in the dynamic of how Mr N works IMO

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:14 pm 
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@Ladril Caledor - By the book they are not worth VP. However the rules pack for Sheffield states that they are (if they come from the lore of undeath), and that's the tournament I'm preparing for ;)

@Ferny - Indeed it makes a big difference. With VPs given up, I think Nagash players need to bring tons of Hexwraiths and Terrorgheists to get the most out of their money. The question is, how many people will bring these units?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:37 am 
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I'd say that tourney rule changes Lore of Undeath from an above average lore to the worst lore in the game, surprised anyone would use it. Do people win many games with this lore under Sheffield rules?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:56 pm 
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It changes the lore of undeath from broken beyond belief to reasonable. You can still summon stuff like Hexwraiths and Terrorgheists, which just about every army in Warhammer struggles to deal with to a certain extent. In the hands of Nagash, it is still a very powerful lore with his increased range and points: It is basically balanced by the fact that people are unlikely to bring all the models they need to truly benefit from it. Being able to summon scrollcaddies and other important items is also a nice benefit.

I don't know how games under the Sheffield system tend to go. I've only played these 2 myself and haven't seen anyone else.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:05 pm 
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I've seen people borrow stuff from their gaming group one game at an event had 5 Terrogeists raised. I would assume people would bring a decent pool of stuff to use.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:08 am 
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Terrorgheists en masse are a huge problem for me because I cannot touch them if they are placed wisely: Take out the Archers first and proceed to Imrik. At this point in time it basically becomes a race: Can I kill Nagash or will the Terrorgheists wipe out everything but the bus (which, without support, can easily be isolated by further summons... Say, a big unit of morghasts).

Anyway, not much I can do about this and almost every army in Warhammer has this weakness against either Terrorgheists or Hexwraiths, or both. If people bring 5 Terrorgheist I'll just have to suck it up and pray that my magic works quicker than his. Also, the monster spell is still huge to cast so failed casts/dangerous IFs/not enough dice to even attempt a cast will screw with Nagash here.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Haha! Its good to see Nahash getting beat down!

It looks like Sheffield is going to be serious hero hammer. I have a couple of events coming up - small local tournies- next weekend and in early January and am really interested to see what has become of the meta around here.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:52 am 
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Serious hero hammer incoming indeed! I doubt this'll last though, it's not a fun way to play the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:48 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Serious hero hammer incoming indeed! I doubt this'll last though, it's not a fun way to play the game.

I agree on the lack of fun. It creates some very lopsided matchups depending on what people bring to a game and it reduces the tactical options/generalship side of the game - which is where the enjoyment is for me in terms of games.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:07 am 
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Exactly. It's kind of like Dwellers, uncomped, when you are playing Elves: The game boils down to matchup luck and a few, crucial dice rolls that can swing hugely either way.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:20 am 
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The Powerplay article is finally up, take a look if you haven't done so already - viewtopic.php?f=75&p=894761#p894761 ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:48 pm 
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In other news various countries are starting to adapt to the new meta. The following list appeared in a tournament with what I assume is a very strong field, finishing top 3. It's quite unique and rumour has it Furion's its original author:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: General, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lion Cloak, Sword of Might, Trickster's Shard, Talisman
of Preservation, Dragonhelm 635
Archmage: Lvl 4, High, Book of Hoeth 275
Noble: BSB 95
Mage: Lvl 1, Fire, Scroll 110

2*5 Silver Helms: Champion 115
25 Archer: FCG 280
5 Ellyrian Reaver: Spear, Champion 90

25 White Lions: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon 405

4* Bolt Thrower70
Total: 2400


Basically I believe it is designed to play as flexibly as possible. In many matchups it can hang back and dish out pain or play defensively and contain the loss within a small margin (as opposed to most Dragon lists which are all out push lists). Anyways, think of this as a defensive, shooting list with Star Dragon as a counter-charge element. Without having played it or seen it in action, I believe that's how it goes. Fascinating and inspiring!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:31 am 
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It's certainly something different. I do have concerns with it, but I would expect it to do very well in a good number of matchups. If we look at the total number of guns, it's "just" four bolt throwers, 25 bows, and a few magic missiles. That's more than I'm used to taking, and more than in most of the lists you've posted. But is it more than dwarves, empire, or either other brand of elves? I've even seen perfectly valid ogre and Bretonnian armies that can outshoot it. Then it's forced to be aggressive. Are the Silver Helms there to tie up shooting units? Why don't they have shields? Actually, I think "Why does every unit have a champion?" is a valid question. It may sound a little nitpicky, but it's weird enough that I think understanding why could give decent insight into how the list is supposed to work.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:24 am 
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Every unit has a Champion to stop the Star Dragon being challenged out.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:59 am 
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Ya I see yhr inspiration for the list, its tricky to pin down over elves with a star dragon and cav bus, and elves make u a large portion of armies these days.
I played dark elves recently with a cav star dragon build, and missed my big unit if archers and bolt throwers so much, uit gives over elves a massive board control advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:09 pm 
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@Koval - I agree that the shooting this list presents is nowhere near insane. However, disregarding the magic, a simple unit of Archers and RBTs is enough to at least give you some ranged presence - meaning there are a number of matchups where you can simply hold back and let the enemy come to you. Obviously you are not going to have a choice vs true gunlines, but against many other committal builds you control the pace of the game. I'm pretty sure units have champions for challenging out so the Star Dragon can cause trouble on its own.

@alenui - Agreed. For the Archers it also helps prolonging steadfast.

@sparkytrypod - Agreed. RBTs really shine in elven matchups.

Has anyone around played something similar to this list? I'm a bit concerned for the L4 as I don't see a good place for him here. Lions 3 wide protects him but without the Sea Helm that's a very defensive position.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Right, it's a hybrid list. It's scary on the defense, I agree, but does it have enough offense? I don't see it having much of a chance up against anything that can outshoot it. I'm especially looking at avoidance, but gunlines too.

Putting the White Lions 3 wide is an option, but really limits what they can do. I think that all of those characters would default to the archers, moving the archmage in certain matchups.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:14 pm 
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I think high rock rocks at smashing avoidance dark elves and wood elves, fiery convocation, tempest and soul quench just make bits of elves. fireball too.
with 4 bolt thowers, archers, and a mobile dragon I think it can handle these kinds of lists

regarding gun lines, most dwarf war machines being runed that makes your lions safe, you hide your dragon for a couple of turns, march up everything else, (deal with gyros) pound them with magic, same spells as above, and shooting. or WBW your dragon to a nice position.

I imagine empire to be the worst match for this as there is no hiding from banishment, cannons and steam tanks, with demis for speed.

just my thoughts. I think its an interesting list, not sure on the archmage and bsbs equipment though!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:29 pm 
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@Koval - Wood Elves are a nightmare for High Elves almost regardless of build. Thus, I don't think this is any worse than most of our other builds. Dark Elves I think are manageable because of their comp (remember, this is ETC draft 1). Dwarfs are disastrous regardless of build, the gyrolist flat down beast any High Elf list at least 13-7, usually more. That leaves Empire, where I agree that a more dedicated approach would be favourable. However, in the rest of the matchups, which is by far the majority, I believe this build provides enough flexibility to be interesting. As sparky mentions, the ability to hang back and pound the enemy at a distance can be crucial for how a matchup unfolds.

@sparkytrypod - High helps against Dark but I don't see it doing much vs WE to be honest. They're too many, too far away, with too much power. Perhaps this list has enough threats to actually make a difference, but I really dread going up against WE almost regardless of their build (assuming it's a strong one).

I am interested in how we can make dragonbuilds that are flexible under the current draft. So far, this is among the more promising ones. I agree that the equipment on the characters seem to be too squeezed but it could of course be that their intended place is indeed with the Archers in many matchups.

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