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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Have to say I haven't faced Lizardmen using the current WE book. The old book obviously had different mechanics. Presumably you feel a fair number of skinks will make it through the arrow storm Curu?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:41 pm 
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Lizardmen can pump out 200 shots per turn. Coupled with Slann and Heavens, I feel that is bad news for Wood Elves. I also believe that the LZ flying circus is difficult for WE to deal with. Large numbers of trueflight might change this, I don't know the matchup that well but I know how much I hate having Skinks shoot at my more vulnerable units.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:35 pm 
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I don't know what to expect at Sheffield. I do know that things will be rough though. Monster-builds are out of the question with TLoS. What we're left with then is either a bus-list, a combined-arms approach or a shooty list. Regardless of approach, magic plays a big part.

Basically I can go Bus with something Like Death + High, but this build really struggles against buildings. It also has an issue with Life, should someone decide to take it. I think this is a poor approach and its one-dimensionality will lead to highly polarized matchups.

Alternatively, I can go with a combined arms approach. This inevitably boils down to PG + cav or WL + cav. I'm not sure about the specifics here but lately neither of our infantry units have impressed me much when forced to play in an offensive role. I find them unreliable and highly magic-dependent, which does not go well for an offensive approach. At least this is a better approach then the buslist because of more flexiblity. Possibly Shadow + X would be an approach to go for here: Silver Helms and Phoenix Guard hit equally hard with Mindrazor (read: They destroy anything) but in this case I need a complimentary lore as well. Will give it some thought.

The last option is to go shooting. I feel these builds benefit the most from the 16-4 win cap in place seeing as it's less likely to win big and 16 really is all you need. There are 2 ways to go about this: You can take Shadow + X (either Metal, High or Death, arguably also Life) or you can take a light coven. Both builds have their merits. In any case it boils down to lots of Archers + big block of WL with BOTWD.

Will have to think on it some more, but this is basically how I perceive my options at the time being.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:01 am 
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A monster list is still viable, I feel, as long as you bring enough targets to enable at least one to get through.

I usually only ever play TLOS, and as my Lizardmen are getting the most love (not sure how I'm feeling about the change to elves), most of my good things are either Saurus characters or monsters.

Target saturation is the game, and if those targets can have a ward save (ie: phoenixes) then there's good chance you'll get into combat.

I'm interested in seeing which direction you go with this.


Also, is TLOS something unusual for you to play?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:45 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Monster-builds are out of the question with TLoS.


I'd love to see you take monsters in TLoS. Despite your advice against TLoS I wanted to give it a go. I did my monster tourney last week and came 9/30 or 40 (15-5 vs friendly dwarves; 5-15 vs dual ghiest dual vargheist but otherwise fairly friendly vamps - lost here at least in part due to a couple of stupid mistakes, though credit to my opponent who was a gentleman and pointed them out so I did learn from it!; 16-4 vs the same dragon/pheonix/infantry list which crushed my MSU last tournament - this time he made some poor decisions, but I fancied my chances on the draw).

In particular here's my thoughts...I wanted to go star dragon because STAR DRAGON but for survivability annointed with +3S, enchanted, dawnstone is pretty solid. Add in 2 pheonixes to taste in rare and you've got some target saturation (especially if you were to take a helm block with high magic/nobles. And that there is basically the army, not many points for much else. Alternatively perhaps MSU or MMU cavalry units might offer more of an evasion option but still have enough kick to gain points?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:45 am 
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@NexS - It is important to remember that this tournament uses End Times lists. Karl Franz is legal. It's just crazy, the S7+ Banishment and cannons will be all over the place. Sure I could bring 2 Star Dragons, 2 Frosthearts and no have any magic or BSB, but I would auto-lose 4-16 to the wrong army. I don't want to do that. For now, the monsters are out.

@Ferny - I'd love to take monsters too as I enjoy how they play, but given this field and ruleset I just don't see it being viable. Congratulations on a solid placement :) After your last endeavour I'm sure that must have felt like a great success!

Star Dragon is by far my preferred choice. Anointed with your setup has recently been tried and it's a very different build, I find. There are many ways to run it, perhaps I'll delve into these builds later on next year. There are plenty of tournaments coming up ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Remind me. Sheffield is allowing End Times rules correct? Characters, magic and all?

If you want to take a Star Dragon take Imrik. 10 STR 7 (10 on the charge) rerolling ws8 attacks? Yes Please! Combine that with all monsters being -1 to hit him and Minaithir AND a 5+ Ward save makes him a very very attractive choice. I think he makes the monster lists even more viable with a 1 turn stubborn when he blows the horn. With end times rules its still very possible to even have a strong magic phase with just a couple level 2s.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:42 pm 
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They haven't decided on the magic part yet, but the rest appear to be in. I don't have the Imrik model nor do I intend to buy it as I think it's ugly, but I can see an argument being made for him in this meta :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:58 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
They haven't decided on the magic part yet, but the rest appear to be in. I don't have the Imrik model nor do I intend to buy it as I think it's ugly, but I can see an argument being made for him in this meta :)



You have a carmine dragon. Minaithir just got an upgrade!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:21 pm 
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I know, but from what I hear English tournaments are very strict on model-per-model basis for SCs, which kinda makes sense with TLoS I suppose. I could PM the TO when he has finally landed the rules :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Possible Eternity King list:

Imrik - 810
BSB, BOTWD and full mundane - 172
Master on Peg, 4++ charmed - 186
Master on Peg, Cloak - 188

Silver Helms + Dark Riders - 550

2x5 Warlocks, Champ - 270

Army total - 2176

Basically tons of evasion with a single block that is just hard to catch if I don't want you to catch it. Said block provides static where needed and there are no less than 5 elements here who will be tasked with eating challenges to ensure those 10 S10 attacks are put to good use.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:06 pm 
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You may want some infantry for the two towers scenario.

I'm unaware of a particular strictness in the UK scene, a nice big dragon with lance armed rider should be fine for Imrik.

I've decided to bring a list based on old 4th white dwarf Ed Battle Report memories, it's not outright filth but should be somewhat competitive but definitely isn't optimised.

Teclis 450
Eltharion: Stormwing 490

Noble: Banner Of The World Dragon; halberd; heavy armour; Battle Standard 151

19 Archers: Hawkeye; Musician; Standard Bearer 220
30 Spearmen: Gleaming Pennant; Sentinel; Musician; Standard Bearer 305
5 Silver Helms: shields; musician 125

1 Tiranoc Chariot 70
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor: Musician 155

1 Great Eagle 50
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Frostheart Phoenix 240

2,396 points


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:23 am 
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How about malekith instead of imrik? He does only take one wound at the time and he comes with a 2++ vs non magical attacks.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:01 pm 
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@alenui - True, will have to check out things like that first. I've sent the TO a PM asking for a couple of my conversions for counts-as models, we'll see what he has to say. As for your list it looks fairly balanced but you should be able to give most opponents a hard time with it I believe.

@Dragon fire - Malekith is undoubtably superior to Imrik. The problem is that I don't own any Dark Elf models and I feel it would be going too far to ask for my Carmine Dragon to be him. Imrik and Pegmasters sound like a lot of fun to play as well I think ;)

Final rules are out, at last. Time to go back to list-building!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:56 pm 
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there are going to be some disgustingly beautiful filthy elven lists I think! at least end times magic isn't in play.

I emailed chris regarding the use of dragon princes as silver helms and he was cool about it so you should be sorted, no harm checking though.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:47 pm 
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With the Eternity King list being available, with Malekith at its helm none the less, I expect some serious filth indeed.

Scenario 3 will indeed be hard with the Imrik list I have set up. I risk losing 2k points on the scenario alone, depending on what I face. The only sensible way to get an infantry unit is to ditch a master though and I'm really hesitant to do that. Perhaps I'll go with Teclis instead.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Winning the 2 towers scenario gets you one thousand points not 2k isn't it?

Ya teclis got a nice boost being allowed to pick spells before each game.

Not sure what direction I'll take myself now, also my limited range of models will affect what I can take.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Yes, but the difference between controlling one and having your opponent control one is 2000 points.

As for Teclis, he doesn't worry me too much actually. Sure he is strong, but what keeps me up at night is Nagash, Karl Franz and Malekith the Eternity King.

I think something like this will work out nicely:

Imrik - 810
Master on Peg, Cloak 'n' stuff - 188
BSB, BOTWD - 172

17 Silver Helms, FCG, Shields, 421
10 Glade Guard, Hagbane, 150

10 Deepwood Scouts, Hagbane, 160

2x5 Warlocks, Champ - 270

Army Total - 2171. Some minor points to work out ;)

Basically the inclusion of a bunch of poisoned shots gives me some degree of threat towards stuff like flying monsters and war machines, which I expect tons of. Furthermore they provide me with board control and a little something to at least contend scenario 3 with.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:30 pm 
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ah gotcha on the scenarios.

Just warlocks for magic??

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:49 am 
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Just warlocks for magic, yes. I will miss the scroll but this list is all about speed. A mage is simply too expensive

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:02 pm 
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Currently considering dropping the Warlocks for an L4 with Metal and scroll. Metal is a solid counter to Malekith and also helps vs Empire. He will be somewhat exposed in the bus, unsure of how to handle this. I think the Archers + Scouts are mandatory because of scenario 3. Perhaps something like this?

Imrik - 810
L4 Metal, Scroll, Steed, Golden Crown of Atrazar - 275
BSB - 172
Cloakpeg - 188
Noble on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Lance - 100
16 Silverhelms, FCG, Shields, 398
10 Glade Guard, Hagbane, Musician, 160

6 Deepwood Scouts, Hagbane - 96

Army Total - 2199

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:23 pm 
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The more I think of it, the more I like this latest one. I think it packs a number of powerful tools while maintaining a decent amount of flexibility. I have a minor tweak though! Time to write it up properly:

Quote:
Imrik, Crown Prince of Caledor: 810
Archmage on Elven Steed: Level 4, Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll, 265
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Spear, Shield, Heavy Armour, 168
Noble on Barded Elven Steed: Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Spear, Crown of Command, 131
Master on Dark Pegasus: Cloak of Twilight, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, 188

16 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 398
10 Glade Guards: Hagbane Tips, Musician, 160

5 Deepwood Scouts: Hagbane Tips, 80

Army Total: 2200

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:02 pm 
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similar to the way I am setting up, except im staying all high elves.

prince, star dragon, heavy arm, shield, dragon helm, talisman of pres, star lance, tots
archmage, book of hoeth, steed,talisman of endurance/crown of command

mage, lvl 1, scroll, life, steed
noble, BSB, barded steed, dragon arm, shield, BOTWD
noble, dragon arm, barded steed, luck stone, ogre blade, ench shield

silver helms x 16 FC
reavers x5 champ, bow swap
reavers x 5, champ, bow swap
10 arhcers, champ
6 shadow warriors
frost heart

I think some form of lvl 4 is going to be needed.

loving the cloak of twilight cannonball catcher too!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:26 pm 
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With normal High Elves you get +200 points relative to my list. I think the Dragon-approach is a little ballsy when it's as flimsy as the normal Star Dragon (Imrik is 2-3 times more durable, depending on what you face), but perhaps you can get away with it. It remains to be seen how artillery will be around! I expect Malekith to become quite the popular Elf and he is pretty much impossible to take down with artillery. On the other hand, having a battery is strong vs KFA, Nagash...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:59 pm 
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ah ya im not expecting to shake the top tables or anything, expecting to shake Sheffield Saturday night though!

I think imrik is my favourite end times character so far, he isn't uber strong but is "the" dragon lord which is cool from a fluff and game perspective.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Yeah I'm not expecting that either, but I do want to bring a list I have faith in ;) The comp and resulting meta will probably be really wacky, which means it's anyone's guess how this all turns out. My bet is that Malekith and Karl Franz will be dominating the top tables.

I'm really liking Imrik as well. He might be too expensive when you compare him to other ET characters, but he looks to be a lot of fun to play. I also don't think he has the auto-win factor that the others possess, either.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Hey I havent been reading most of the new comments, but I just glimsed that you are missing a Malekith model, I do have one converted up, Ill drop a picture of it whenb I return from our clubevening toonight. If you want to borrow him we can find a way, or I could give the list of bits, and you could make a duplicate.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Thanks for the offer but I'll rather go with Imrik :) Converting up a new model is not something I'm too keen on as I already have 3 Phoenix models and 3 dragon models. Besides I want to bring my own models to any tournaments I attend ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Ok I see, I hope Imrik, can prowl trought all those super villains outhere, good luck. Toonight we will play 600 + 250 lords, after the exalation rules posted some months back in this forum, Im hyping up fantasy so we can get full attendance for our tournament 22 mars. I havent put advertised it nasjonal since it is a 3 games sunday tourny. Ive only advertised it on facebook pages for warcry and Sørlandets WK. But If you want to attend you can allways drop me a pm.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:11 pm 
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My goal with taking Imrik is not going toe-to-toe with Karl Franz, Malekith, Tyrion et. all and expect to win. My goal with taking Imrik is to have a list that vaguely resembles sensible Warhammer (if you can call Imrik "sensible" outside of ET is another discussion) while having fun and at least a chance at engaging the worst lists. While Imrik can't take Karl Franz head on, he is perfectly capable of utterly wiping out his support elements for example (hence the inclusion of the Master, eating those challenges will be his main role). With W10, 5++ and Fireborn, Imrik also packs enough survivability to (hopefully) give me a fighting chance against artillery-heavy armies.

Tournaments next year will be tight. There's Sheffield in January, Conquest + DSK in February, Crusade in April, SM in May, Alliance + ETC Warmup in June, Indian Summer + ETC July/August. While March might seem like an open spot right now, I fear I have to ditch even a few of the ones mentioned above due to domestic matters. Because of this a one-day tournament is very hard for me to prioritize, unfortunately.

Speaking of Alliance though, I'll post up in the Fantasy forum since the format and time (roughly) have been agreed upon :)

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