Re: Path To Glory - 3. game - Low-comp vs TK
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:04 pm
1. Indeed, there are lots of anti-chaff tools. However, having a few S3 shots also help against monsters that sport a poor armour save. Examples include Phoenix, Great Eagles, Griffons, Greater Daemons, Sphinx, Spider. If you ditch Archers in favour of Spears you need a solid reason to take them, in my opinion. In a combined arms list which can play on so many different levels, the Spears will more often than not be a liability whereas Archers can provide utility. Furthermore, Archers aren't exactly crap in combat either: with WS4 and ASF they are perfectly capable of holding their own against anything that isn't a dedicated combat unit.
4. Again, RBTs provide board control. They are also quite cost-efficient against MC and provide a threat against flying tough things (e.g. Dragons, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons). There's no way I'm letting them go in this kind of list. I believe the only HE lists that can play without RBTs at all are monster mash and cavstar ones.
6. I've thought about it! See the discussion below.
As to your new questions:
1. With such a setup, I believe Naval Discipline is worth its weight in gold. It pretty much allows you to charge something, run it down and not have to worry about being flanked or whatever. Furthermore, characters in deep shit can be reformed corner-to-corner instead of in the center, if needed. Lots of utility and an extra attack for -30 points isn`t worth it in comparison, in my opinion.
2. I'm not trying to guarantee anything, he's there to draw a scroll and provide double casts of Wyssan's. Furthermore, Miasma and Iceshard are extremely cost-efficient combat buffs.
3. True, the "exchange rate" here is pretty much 2-1
4. True again. It was just a concept. I doubt I'll pursue it.
<===>
Having had a few games and read tons about the new High Elves both here and on other sites, let's review my current list:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
2+ re-rollable sure isn't 1+ re-rollable. S7 Chaos stuff suddenly makes you anxious for example. I have yet to decide which I favour more though, OTS brings a LOT of value (especially uncomped!). One thing is for sure: the Giant Blade + Dawnstone aren't going anywhere and the Prince is a very solid choice.
Grade: A
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
The perfect magic center for this army, in my opinion. I find Endurance to be sufficient, given the lore attribute. It helps him out greatly in a lot of situations and allows him to play quite aggressively, for a mage. The only problem I have with this guy is his spell selection. If there had been some way to give him 5 spells it would be perfect. I think this is his biggest weakness, but one that can be played around most of the time given our 2 flexible signature spells.
Grade: A
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
This is quickly becoming my favourite setup. The Star Lance is absolutely devastating and combined with the super-cheap Potion this guy can tag-team with the Prince to bring out an incredible 8 S7 attacks in a single charge, half of which allow no armour save!¨
Grade: A
Characters = 767
5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
My Reaver usage so far has been so-so. Considering they cost 300 points, they definitely should do more. This is largely my fault and not that of the unit itself, but regardless I'm leaning towards 3 being too much. I'm also strongly considering dropping the musician.
Grade: D
15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
Being able to deploy these 3x5 and get full effect is just beautiful. It makes them so much easier to play around with and their combat ability improves as a bonus. S3 is however full of short-comings and there's only so much they can do.
Grade: C
Core = 600
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
The Sword has been so-so thus far. Banner of the World Dragon is very powerful, but then again this unit truly doesn't fear that many spells. The question then is obviously if War Machines etc are frequently magical and I think this is the killer: Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven will struggle no end to take these down. I have been considering whether to take Silver Helms instead and drop some Archers and some Reavers which would effectively allow me to take a horde of Lions with the BOTWD alongside this hammer. This does however majorly change the way the army plays and although it looks better on paper when you initially see it, you soon realize that it suddenly plays worse against its previously terrific matchups (i.e. I consider Dwarfs to be a really good matchup with this current army). Because of this, I think the Dragon Princes have to stay. Their inability to grind is however a big problem. Taking the Sword of Anti Heroes over the Ogre Blade might be something I have to re-think, as the latter grants me a LOT more grinding power. Also, as long as I'm running the OTS on the Prince I think the Drakemaster deserves the Enchanted Shield.
Grade: B
10 White Lions = 130
Without a doubt the unit I'm the least satisfied with. They feel like a necessary evil but the more I think about it, the less sure I am that they actually are necessary in the first place. Yes, 10 S6 attacks are a lot to fear, but at T3, 5+ and virtually no mobility to speak of relative to being a counter-attack unit, I'm not so sure it even matters. Looking at it another way, when will these guys ever get into a favourable combat?
Grade: E
Special = 477
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
I still believe that these are overcosted relative to the other artillery that's in the game. Regardless, they are no long ridiculously overcosted which in effect means that they are pretty much a must-have unless you're going for some kind of unique army style. Their board control is amazing and their multi-shots allow them to threaten war machines as well as clear chaff efficiently. Their superb range ensures that they can be deployed independently and still contribute quite effectively, something I've come to enjoy. At the end of the day though, I really think these should either be a bit more killy or a bit cheaper.
Grade: B
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
A necessary evil. I don't believe in S4 shooting with the current meta. Most things worth shooting are either too tough (1+) or too numerous (Orcs, Skaven...) to be worth shooting at with single-shot 14ppm units. True, they have a couple of terrific matchups but I just don't see this being worth investing in when most of these matchups are already tolerable or hopeless in the first place. For example, Ogres are actually not that bad with all the shooting I already have (especially considering their IB is 0-1 with the comp on the upcoming tournament) and the combined power of the cavalry + frostheart. Against Chimerae, Trolls and VC regen-spam they are a necessity though, without a doubt. My main issue with these is that they are eating into my rares, basically forcing me to drop a Repeater.
Grade: C
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
I said it as soon as I heard the rumours and I still believe this to be true: this is the single strongest unit in our book. Barring metas where you frequently run into a million war machines, this bird is so ridiculously powerful. I wouldn't leave home without it if you're packing any kind of fighting characters that aren't in an infantry deathstar, that's for sure.
Grade: A
Rare = 548
Army Total = 2392
So, what are my thoughts with regards to this army? All the changes I've made thus far point in one direction - the list (at least the way I prefer to play it) is essentially a shooty-avoidance list with strong counter-attack elements. In fact, these are so strong that I'm not hopelessly lost when I'm outgunned. As I said previously, I do believe that Dwarfs for example are actually a favourable matchup the way it stands now. To this end, I want more flexibility, more movement, more shooting. The units I are the least happy with need to be replaced, at least for a couple of games, to see if I can make other configurations work better. At the same time, I have to maintain my ability to threaten stuff that is simply getting too close for comfort. I thought I'd never say this, but enter the Skycutter with a Bolt Thrower. It is a poor man's RBT in terms of board control, but it's so much better in terms of playing defensively in an avoidance playstyle. I think it can largely fulfil the role of the Lions with regards to helping my rear echelon out. Also, I don't see this change impacting my poor matchups at all and it enhances my strong matchups.
Second, core: I'm very fascinated by the SHelm-dart. I think it is a unit with a lot of potential. Furthermore, it gives me more utility against armies that spam S3 (Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, High Elves primarily). As I said I think 3 Reavers are too much. 5 upgraded SHelms with a musician is only 125 points. Adding a 6th, which is pretty much just "optimal" considering Martial Prowess, brings it to 148. This is easily achieveable with re-configuring.
The revised list is thus as follows:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield = 347
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120
Special = 467
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
8 Sisters of Avelorn = 112
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 562
Army Total = 2399
Lastly I want to point out that I think there are at least two other approaches to combined arms that would be interesting. The first is going for a more traditional combat-oriented approach. This includes a large unit of Spears (40-ish) with movement banner to keep up with the bus and preferably a Shadow Archmage to get crucial combat buffs. The other is going for a double-smash where you basically ditch the Dragon Princes for Silver Helms to make room for a horde of Lions. This has the benefit of having way more grinding power and you can always give the BOTWD to the BSB (Lions +1M banner is still very good) to preserve most of the unit's survivability.
As always, C&C very welcome
4. Again, RBTs provide board control. They are also quite cost-efficient against MC and provide a threat against flying tough things (e.g. Dragons, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons). There's no way I'm letting them go in this kind of list. I believe the only HE lists that can play without RBTs at all are monster mash and cavstar ones.
6. I've thought about it! See the discussion below.
As to your new questions:
1. With such a setup, I believe Naval Discipline is worth its weight in gold. It pretty much allows you to charge something, run it down and not have to worry about being flanked or whatever. Furthermore, characters in deep shit can be reformed corner-to-corner instead of in the center, if needed. Lots of utility and an extra attack for -30 points isn`t worth it in comparison, in my opinion.
2. I'm not trying to guarantee anything, he's there to draw a scroll and provide double casts of Wyssan's. Furthermore, Miasma and Iceshard are extremely cost-efficient combat buffs.
3. True, the "exchange rate" here is pretty much 2-1
4. True again. It was just a concept. I doubt I'll pursue it.
<===>
Having had a few games and read tons about the new High Elves both here and on other sites, let's review my current list:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
2+ re-rollable sure isn't 1+ re-rollable. S7 Chaos stuff suddenly makes you anxious for example. I have yet to decide which I favour more though, OTS brings a LOT of value (especially uncomped!). One thing is for sure: the Giant Blade + Dawnstone aren't going anywhere and the Prince is a very solid choice.
Grade: A
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
The perfect magic center for this army, in my opinion. I find Endurance to be sufficient, given the lore attribute. It helps him out greatly in a lot of situations and allows him to play quite aggressively, for a mage. The only problem I have with this guy is his spell selection. If there had been some way to give him 5 spells it would be perfect. I think this is his biggest weakness, but one that can be played around most of the time given our 2 flexible signature spells.
Grade: A
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
This is quickly becoming my favourite setup. The Star Lance is absolutely devastating and combined with the super-cheap Potion this guy can tag-team with the Prince to bring out an incredible 8 S7 attacks in a single charge, half of which allow no armour save!¨
Grade: A
Characters = 767
5 Reavers, Musician = 90
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician = 95
My Reaver usage so far has been so-so. Considering they cost 300 points, they definitely should do more. This is largely my fault and not that of the unit itself, but regardless I'm leaning towards 3 being too much. I'm also strongly considering dropping the musician.
Grade: D
15 Archers, Musician = 160
15 Archers, Musician = 160
Being able to deploy these 3x5 and get full effect is just beautiful. It makes them so much easier to play around with and their combat ability improves as a bonus. S3 is however full of short-comings and there's only so much they can do.
Grade: C
Core = 600
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes = 347
The Sword has been so-so thus far. Banner of the World Dragon is very powerful, but then again this unit truly doesn't fear that many spells. The question then is obviously if War Machines etc are frequently magical and I think this is the killer: Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven will struggle no end to take these down. I have been considering whether to take Silver Helms instead and drop some Archers and some Reavers which would effectively allow me to take a horde of Lions with the BOTWD alongside this hammer. This does however majorly change the way the army plays and although it looks better on paper when you initially see it, you soon realize that it suddenly plays worse against its previously terrific matchups (i.e. I consider Dwarfs to be a really good matchup with this current army). Because of this, I think the Dragon Princes have to stay. Their inability to grind is however a big problem. Taking the Sword of Anti Heroes over the Ogre Blade might be something I have to re-think, as the latter grants me a LOT more grinding power. Also, as long as I'm running the OTS on the Prince I think the Drakemaster deserves the Enchanted Shield.
Grade: B
10 White Lions = 130
Without a doubt the unit I'm the least satisfied with. They feel like a necessary evil but the more I think about it, the less sure I am that they actually are necessary in the first place. Yes, 10 S6 attacks are a lot to fear, but at T3, 5+ and virtually no mobility to speak of relative to being a counter-attack unit, I'm not so sure it even matters. Looking at it another way, when will these guys ever get into a favourable combat?
Grade: E
Special = 477
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
I still believe that these are overcosted relative to the other artillery that's in the game. Regardless, they are no long ridiculously overcosted which in effect means that they are pretty much a must-have unless you're going for some kind of unique army style. Their board control is amazing and their multi-shots allow them to threaten war machines as well as clear chaff efficiently. Their superb range ensures that they can be deployed independently and still contribute quite effectively, something I've come to enjoy. At the end of the day though, I really think these should either be a bit more killy or a bit cheaper.
Grade: B
7 Sisters of Avelorn = 98
A necessary evil. I don't believe in S4 shooting with the current meta. Most things worth shooting are either too tough (1+) or too numerous (Orcs, Skaven...) to be worth shooting at with single-shot 14ppm units. True, they have a couple of terrific matchups but I just don't see this being worth investing in when most of these matchups are already tolerable or hopeless in the first place. For example, Ogres are actually not that bad with all the shooting I already have (especially considering their IB is 0-1 with the comp on the upcoming tournament) and the combined power of the cavalry + frostheart. Against Chimerae, Trolls and VC regen-spam they are a necessity though, without a doubt. My main issue with these is that they are eating into my rares, basically forcing me to drop a Repeater.
Grade: C
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
I said it as soon as I heard the rumours and I still believe this to be true: this is the single strongest unit in our book. Barring metas where you frequently run into a million war machines, this bird is so ridiculously powerful. I wouldn't leave home without it if you're packing any kind of fighting characters that aren't in an infantry deathstar, that's for sure.
Grade: A
Rare = 548
Army Total = 2392
So, what are my thoughts with regards to this army? All the changes I've made thus far point in one direction - the list (at least the way I prefer to play it) is essentially a shooty-avoidance list with strong counter-attack elements. In fact, these are so strong that I'm not hopelessly lost when I'm outgunned. As I said previously, I do believe that Dwarfs for example are actually a favourable matchup the way it stands now. To this end, I want more flexibility, more movement, more shooting. The units I are the least happy with need to be replaced, at least for a couple of games, to see if I can make other configurations work better. At the same time, I have to maintain my ability to threaten stuff that is simply getting too close for comfort. I thought I'd never say this, but enter the Skycutter with a Bolt Thrower. It is a poor man's RBT in terms of board control, but it's so much better in terms of playing defensively in an avoidance playstyle. I think it can largely fulfil the role of the Lions with regards to helping my rear echelon out. Also, I don't see this change impacting my poor matchups at all and it enhances my strong matchups.
Second, core: I'm very fascinated by the SHelm-dart. I think it is a unit with a lot of potential. Furthermore, it gives me more utility against armies that spam S3 (Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, High Elves primarily). As I said I think 3 Reavers are too much. 5 upgraded SHelms with a musician is only 125 points. Adding a 6th, which is pretty much just "optimal" considering Martial Prowess, brings it to 148. This is easily achieveable with re-configuring.
The revised list is thus as follows:
Prince on Barded Steed with Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, The Other Trickster's Shard = 287
High Archmage lvl 4, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon = 310
BSB Noble on Barded Steed with Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Heavy Armour, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Luckstone = 170
Characters = 767
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
6 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 148
15 Archers, Musician = 160
12 Archers, Musician = 130
Core = 603
8 Dragon Princes of Caledor, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield = 347
Skycutter with Bolt Thrower = 120
Special = 467
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
8 Sisters of Avelorn = 112
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare = 562
Army Total = 2399
Lastly I want to point out that I think there are at least two other approaches to combined arms that would be interesting. The first is going for a more traditional combat-oriented approach. This includes a large unit of Spears (40-ish) with movement banner to keep up with the bus and preferably a Shadow Archmage to get crucial combat buffs. The other is going for a double-smash where you basically ditch the Dragon Princes for Silver Helms to make room for a horde of Lions. This has the benefit of having way more grinding power and you can always give the BOTWD to the BSB (Lions +1M banner is still very good) to preserve most of the unit's survivability.
As always, C&C very welcome