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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Green Istari

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I was more thinking about shooting/magic vs that 4+ AS Curu.

I guess he's going to be Life buffing it like a good'un though.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:12 am 
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Magic is somewhat risky to target the Dark Riders with because of Hotek. If you do target them regardless, MR3 is as good as it gets for non-botwd units, with some exceptions. I suppose the question is rather what kind of magic you fear them receiving? Likewise, what kind of shooting do you think they will fear? A normal S3 hit has a 25% chance of killing a Dark Rider and once you start factoring in to hit modifiers etc it`s not looking too bad. Of course for volume of fire such as what WE and DE can put out it`s a different deal entirely, but looking at the NM lists above I don`t think there are too many of these around. Of course my list is among the exceptions here, with enough boosts up and running my shooting can put a serious dent in that unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:25 am 
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Just Dweller it off Curu!

:)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:44 am 
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Oh, believe me, I intend to :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:46 am 
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Hi Curu,
Some questions regarding the various SH character bus lists you have run over the last year or so:

When you have your BSB with BotWD, do you generally try and shield him in the second rank and have prince + other (non BSB) character up front with the full command group? Do you find you sometimes want his 3 ASF S6 attacks and make way with him? When you are protecting the BSB and mages by shielding with the command group did you sometimes have the champ die and had to move up a character and would you sometimes sacrafice a level 1-2 mage to protect the BSB or just hope that he can tough it out in the front rank with his armor and (hopefully) ward saves?

I guess I am just looking for some general advice on how to handle this very valuable but relatively fragile character. My inclination now is to leave him in the second rank provided I have 2 combat characters to combine with the command group for the front 5. 3 S6 attacks is nice but it's only for the first round and on that round the SH should contribute somewhat significantly with their S5 attacks.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Hey gaz, excellent question!

Basically, the question has 2 answers. I prefer to play aggressively, setting up for big combats where I can use my multitude of hard hitters to devastating effect. A different approach is to play the bus even more aggressively on the table and in its own right, but in that case your goal is more about creating space and denying an enemy areas to advance through rather than combo-charging stuff to death.

With my approach, the champion issue is not present as much as I usually experience opponents losing fast once combat starts. The BSB is somewhat exposed but careful positioning within the unit, combat reforms etc can largely help him out against the worst. In some of my most recent games (DE and WE reports @2400 points for example) I have moved him deliberately to no-risk places. I typically consider my front 5 models and their placement in every single movement phase.

The other approach that I was talking about revolves around swapping out the Ogre Blade on the 2nd Noble for a Crown of Command. This allows your Silver Helms to go 2 or 3 wide and remain stubborn, which is a true pain for most enemies to deal with. This does enable the unit to push hard on its own and basically physically block an enemy out of an area, but you won`t have the same hitting power.

I guess which approach you choose should depend on your preferred playstyle. I have not been able to find any significant advantages of any of the two over the other: They`re simply different configurations allowing for different playstyles and both have their merits.

It`s important to note that the Silver Helms are by and large not a dangerous unit. They provide static and are hard to obliterate, but their charge is no-where near what you`d expect for the ~1100 points you`re paying for the unit. Some enemies are very afraid of WS4 ASF S5 charges however, most notably Elves, Lizardmen and actually Ogre Kingdoms (the latter are kind of like a glass cannon actually, fairly easy to put wounds on those oversized chumps).

Lastly I`d like to point out that the Frostheart in a combined combat helps the BSB out immensely: Not only does its Blizzard Aura effectively make his armour save 1+, the ASL part typically allows the monster (and sometimes Elven Steeds) to hit before the enemy strikes back, possibly reducing incoming attacks.

---

NM starts tomorrow and I have had no time for further preparations (crazy busy week at work and with me getting my own apartment). 2k uncomped is not my cup of tea anyhow, I`m mostly participating to support the initiative and environment. Upon seeing the lists this view has solidified even further as I simply can`t see a way to play High Elves competitively and fun at this level. The multi-phoenix approach could possibly be interesting, but in a world of Dwellers, S8 Banishment, 1+ Empire and Dark Elf board control spam there are so many counters that I just wouldn`t know what to do about.

Anyway, it is what it is and I`m bringing Teclis so it can`t be all that bad. I will of course bring my best and if nothing else I will learn some lessons with regards to playing a defensive High Elves army list.

I`ll try and report in a bit tomorrow with the first 3/5 games. Now, I have to go paint some Lions...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Day 1 is over and my results so far are mediocre.

Game 1 saw me meet a clubmate with Life + Light L4 Empire, Halberdiers and double Steam Tank + 4 + 3 Demis. The Dwellers duel was endless but in the end I claimed more auxiliary units for a 14-6 win.

Game 2 saw me meet a French guy who bad brought a very draw-based list with Folding Fortress, lots of Archers and double Steam Tank. Of course the L4 Life Wizard was around and he had 5 spells from Light as well. I got an opening but he was lucky in the last turn, the end result was an 11-9 win.

Game 3 and finally there were no more Empire opponents in line for me. Instead I faced a Dark Elf list quite similar to what I played in my last practice game. Unfortunately I made a strategic mistake as I pushed too hard with the Lions and opened up my back field. I also made a couple of tactical mistakes that allowed him to wrap around to places he shouldn`t be able to reach so I bled a lot of points. A lucky Dwellers taking out Morathi towards the end made an otherwise drawy game turn heavily in my favour and the end result was another 14-6 win.

I find Teclis to be hard getting proper value from. He costs a lot of points and with the NM comp making him give up an additional 200vp if he`s killed I have to be very careful with how I play. To this end, I wish the list had been more focused on 1 of 2 approaches: I would either have a third mage with the Dispel Scroll, choosing Light on both support mages, or I would have included a fast element or two, reducing the Lions from a semi-deathstar to more of a pure bunker.

Anyway, it is what it is and I`ll have to see what comes tomorrow. It`s a learning experience in many ways, but I can`t say I enjoy uncomped play. Games 1 and 2 were ridiculously shaped by how random and potentially devastating Dwellers is, to the point where the game basically plays itself and it`s all up to the dice and your willingness to take risk. Of course, skills still factor in but not nearly as much.

39/60 points so far with some of the top players having 60/60 means I`ll have to score some big wins tomorrow to end with a decent placement ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:03 pm 
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Think submarine Curu!

:)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:52 pm 
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I`m not low enough to properly submarine. I finished today @ table 10, which with a 14 win probably means I`m table 7-8 tomorrow morning. I will, of course, do my best :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:24 pm 
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Double steamtank in first 2 rounds, sounds tuff. Looking forward to battlereports, and results from today.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Suffice to say, today saw me play another two tough games. The reports will not be that interesting to read I am afraid, but I will of course post them up when I have the chance ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Ok, time for some teasers! Throughout the tournament, I met a number of various lists in the hands of capable players. I don`t think I`ve ever met so many strong players in one single tournament. Game 1 saw me play the guy placing 3rd on Invasion, Game 2 was vs a previous french ETC captain, Game 3 was against a club-mate and Games 4 & 5 were against previous Norwegian ETC players. While this made for very tough games where I had to fight for every single point, it also meant I had 5 very interesting games which I enjoyed a lot. Game 1 was probably my favourite of the tournament because the dice went crazy beyond belief, my opponent and I were laughing so hard so many times that people around us started wondering what on earth was going on. At one point my opponent even did a little dance :D I suppose it`s karma cheering us up when we have such a boring matchup to play (the Dwellers is real, believe me).

So yeah, I don`t know when I`ll be able to get all these reports up but I will, as always, be as quick about it as I can. In the meantime, feel free to make predictions on the games and the end result based on the following:

Game 1 - Double Stank, Demi-Empire

Dwellers backup, Halberdiers core. How do I approach this game? Basically I have to protect the Archers and win the Dwellers war to have a chance here.

Image
The High Elves successfully keep the Archers alive and sweep the Western flank clear, giving me a lot of space to advance. Will it be in time though and who will have the superior Strength vs the Dwellers Below?

Game 2 - Double Stank, Swarm-Skirmish Empire

Folding Fortress and all-skirmish core, Level 4 Life and 5 levels of Light magic. Basically it`s very hard for me to push here and it`s just about impossible for me to get Dwellers off first. I have to bide my time and see what happens.

Image
The Empire commit to a Dwellers duel! Who will win?

Game 3 - Morathi Shooty-Avoidance Dark Elves

A very similar list to what I faced in my last practice game prior to NM. I make a number of mistakes and end up in a messy spot. How can I prevail?

Image
Having messed up both strategically and tactically, the Dark Elves wrap around my threat arcs and are now bearing down on my back field. How can the High Elves deal with this?

Game 4 - Daemons of Nurgle with Metal Heralds

With double L2 Metal he`s almost guaranteed to get Final Transmutation. I have to keep the Archers alive here and put pressure on him with the Lions. The safest place is in combat where I won`t have to weather Final Trans and where Treason won`t render my huge points Lionstar fearing for panic tests.

Image
With an IF Timewarp the Lions are bearing down on the Daemons faster than their M5 would suggest, but is it fast enough and what kind of price has Teclis paid to bring them to the Chaos doorstep this fast?

Game 5 - Dark Rider Star Level 4 Life Dark Elves

With M18 fast cav there is no way I can ever get the first cast of Dwellers here, apart from a huge mistake on my opponent`s part or Timewarp. The former is not something I can count on, the latter is a spell I don`t want to pick here as my games vs DE thus far has taught me that Banishment is a great spell for putting pressure on them early on. Instead I settle for Final Transmutation, which allows me to project a serious threat arc seeing as he has 6 (!!!) characters in a unit of 19 Dark Riders.

Image
The Dark Elves go for a wide deploy with their Reapers exposed. Having learned from my mistakes my deploy is tight and I have cover for all the important elements (read: RBTs) with the Archers in a very safe spot, so the game is on!

I ended up getting best in race: High Elves for the tournament :) Does this mean that I played well or that the other High Elves players played bad? Reports will show in due time, stay tuned!

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Well played Curu!

Good to see you adjusted to such a different playstyle and environment pretty well.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Let`s see how this went first, shall we? ;)

Game 1 coming up soon!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:19 pm 
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For my first game at the Norwegian Master`s this year I drew a typical list to examplify why I`m not a fan of uncomped Warhammer. At Invasion, I met varied armies and though some were really tough, it was no-where near 5 tough games in a row with huge variance. Empire with double Steam Tank, Life magic and 7 Demigryphs at 2000 points is a different story, however.


.::. Battle Report - Norwegian Master`s #1 vs Empire (uncomped) .::.
Points Before the Game: 0/0

Lists:

Quote:
Teclis, 450 points
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ironcurse Icon, 170 points
Mage: Shadow, Forbidden Rod, 120 points

30 Archers, FCG, 330 points
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (Swap), 85 points
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (Swap), 85 points

36 White Lions, FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 548 points

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
Total: 1998 points


Quote:
Battle Wizard Lord: General, Lvl 4, Life, Dispel Scroll, 225
Battle Wizard Lord: Lvl 4, Light, Obsidian Amulet, Scroll of Shielding, 245
Captain of the Empire: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 100

45 Halberdiers: FCG, 300
20 Halberdiers: Detachment, 120
12 Archers: Detachment, 84

4 Demigryph Knights: Mus, 242
3 Demigryph Knights: Mus, 184
Steam Tank: 250
Steam Tank: 250
Total: 2000


Pre-battle thoughts and deployment:

The only way for me to score a big win here is to win the Dwellers duel. Furthermore I have to keep the Archers safe. RBTs will probably die and the Reavers are expendable if I need to keep his STanks busy. He has trouble dealing with the latter though so I can afford being cheeky if the situation calls for it.

Deployment saw me place Archers on an extreme flank, hugging the table edge with deep Lions protecting their other flank. He answered by putting his small Demis opposite them and the rest in his center. This would mean no Dwellers T1. I took Searing Doom to deal with his armour, which meant that Final Transmutation would not be around to pressure him early on.

I was happy with the deployment but the 3 Demis on my flank had me worried. They could potentially take a lot to bring down.

Image
Reavers taunting flank shots to perhaps keep RBTs safe. Putting wounds on STanks early game can be devastating. Also, placing them like this avoided any panic checks due to nearby destruction etc

He won the roll-off and thus we started.

EMP T1

3 Demis advanced, center shuffled. Magic contained (I dispelled Net). Shooting kills one RBT, wounds another once.

Image

HE T1

Lions move to threaten Demis if they want to advance. Reavers move towards bunker. Magic... Crazy dice rolls begin! I cast a big searing doom on his Demis, he uses scroll of shielding. Despite this, they take 7W (!). 1 left on 2W, threat neutralized. I follow this up with the BSB showing why the Reaver Bow is situational at best, dealing 0W. The Archers, aka Robin Hoods, put 4W on the poor last Demi. To our amazement, my opponent takes a page out of Yatzhee and rolls nothing but 1s. The Demigryph goes down and we can`t help but laugh.

Image

EMP T2

I also managed to Net his L4 which was in the Archers, too far away to cast Dwellers unless he`d move out and join the Halberdiers after they had advanced. To do this, he`d have to take the Net test on the L4 and all hits on him if he`d want to leave. "Well I`m not going to NM to play safe" he calls and promptly passes his S test, easily making it into the Halberdiers and getting the first cast of Dwellers.

So his magic phase begins and he rolls for Dwellers... Failing to meet the casting value! He despairs, we laugh and his STanks both fail at being good STanks (read: no more wounds on RBTs).

Image

HE T2

With the immediate demi-threat neutralized, I move up to return the Dwellers favour. As opposed to his cast, mine goes through and the scroll comes out. RBTs keep pounding STanks.

Image

EMP T3

STank puts pressure, but the impassable is really working in my favour here. Dwellers is cast again, this time I scroll but fail to kill the spell. Shooting kills one of my last 2 RBTs.

Image

HE T3

I realize I have to push if I want to try... stuff... So I move up hard. Besides, his STank is no immediate threat given its position. Dwellers is thrown and this time goes through his defenses! The Light Wizard perishes however the Life (aka the important one) survives, to my dismay. We laugh, last RBT does nothing of notice.

Image

EMP T4

STank on the West stands still. It is wounded badly. Characters spread out. Center shuffles. Magic sees Dwellers cast, this time I dispel on dice. He shakes his head at his inability to get this spell off (I was lucky to get enough Dispel Dice!).

Image

HE T4

I keep moving up but he`s so far away that in reality, I am just trying to provide Teclis with a good position to Purple Fun him. Said Purple Fun is cast and he stops it so I get Dwellers off on his Life Wizard again. In my attempt to prove that Teclis is the stronger wizard, the elusive human rolls another 2 and evades my attempt at killing him. We laugh again.

Image

EMP T5

He keeps retreating and this time his Dwellers goes through my defenses. At this time he was so happy that he started dancing, like literally spinning around himself making sounds and faces. Teclis would have none of him passing all the S tests alone as I whip up the most beautiful "2" I have ever seen in my life, much to my opponent`s dismay. We laugh, game goes on.

Image

HE T5

I push again but the Lions have to be somewhat careful: A multiple-frontage-charge means no Naval Discipline so the Halberdiers are effectively zoning me out. Magic is again as boring as you would expect it to be with Teclis yet again getting off Dwellers, my opponent yet again passing his S test (yes, that is 4/4 tests passed on S3, with 3 of them being Dwellers). We laugh, and my last RBT (who has miraculously enough survived because his Stanks have been wounded and he keeps rolling poor scatters) proves its viability as it finally kills off the severely wounded machine near the impassable piece.

Image

The last turn of the game is uneventful. He tries to cast Dwellers but fails. I try to cast Dwellers and fail. In total there were 4 successful casts of Dwellers with a total of 8 S tests (majority S3, some S4 and one S2) and just a single dude died (apart from Rank and File), 2 casts of Dwellers scrolled, 1 cast of Dwellers dispelled on dice and 3 casts of Dwellers failing to meet the casting value. Did I mention that uncomped Warhammer`s fun :roll: ?

Counting up the score my kills are a bit ahead of him. Despite the ridiculous rolls and Dwellers back and forth neither side has lost much, but I have hardly lost anything as only a couple of RBTs end up giving him points. This secures me a decent score, making it a 14-6 win to the High Elves!

Evaluation

I don`t know where to start. The dice in this game were so crazy. We were finished in about an hour as there was next to zero tactical play involved. Having deployed to save the Archers` points my army played itself. It was all down to the dice which heavily favoured me. True, his L4 was particularly lucky but the early demise of the Demigryphs and Teclis passing an S-test of his own were very crucial for me.

The slingshot of his L4 Life Wizard from the Archers to the Halberdiers did give him the first cast of Dwellers. I was aware of this prior to the move and I was contemplating doing the same myself with Teclis in the Archers being slingshotted into swift reformed White Lions, but the 3 Demigryphs effectively made this a very risky proposition. Maybe I was too pre-occupied with them but miscasts also hurt the Archers significantly. Getting off Dwellers first is usually a big deal, so I was lucky that I didn`t flat-out lose the game to this.

Keeping STanks pressured with RBTs is always crucial when facing Empire and this game was no different. In the end I did claim one of his STanks from RBT fire, securing me a healthy +250VP. If you can taunt the Empire player into leaving your RBT alive, they will slowly but surely become a real pain for his STanks.

Opponent`s Final Placing: 15/58
My Points: 14/20

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:08 am 
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Hi Curu,

Thanks for the most recent report. I imagine this wasn't the most fulfilling game of Warhammer you've played.

Regarding the BSB in a SH bus:
If I understand correctly, you generally made way with him to the front rank (with the philosophy of using his S6 attacks to help maximize the chance of breaking the opponent on the charge) but that you tried to put him in the position of minimal risk within the front rank. Is that right? I'm guessing this approach worked out fairly well for you as you seem to have had much success with Cav and Dragon+Cav lists.

Cheers,

Gaz


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:13 am 
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Hey gaz! After this weekend I`m putting away uncomped play for a while. As you will see in the coming reports, this was far from the only game where 6-dicing madness largely determined how I had to play.

As for the BSB in the Helmbus, the TL;DR version is that it depends. It`s very hard to give general advice here as your willingness to risk him should depend on a number of factors. The best way to evaluate this is to think through the various scenarios and consider them in any particular game. I have a number of reports featuring him, feel free to check them out (links on page 1, most notably Star Dragon and Deathtrain reports).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:40 pm 
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I hate when games end up in a dwellers/magic standoff like that. its almost a waste of a game.

however you got the Win and that's what counts in tournys!

teclis is soooo fragile, movement always has to consider his safety, it can be hard to push then when he is in your main combat block.

next report please! [-o<

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:13 pm 
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@sparkytrypod - Oh please, do pay attention to these reports and you will understand why I don`t like uncomped play. 6-dicing big spells affects the game too much. True, you could argue that a different army composition would reduce this aspect, but my question then is what kind of HE list you`d take at 2k? I was unable to come up with anyone I had faith in, though to be fair I didn`t playtest any of the ideas I had either.

Next report coming right up!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:14 pm 
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Second game saw me draw another Empire list. Although a completely different beast from last game, it still sported double STanks and Dwellers... Furthermore, it was in the very capable hands of the former French ETC Captain, Sylvain Jaber, who together with a number of friends had taken the trip to NM to provide us with some serious challenges.


.::. Battle Report - Norwegian Master`s #2 vs Empire (uncomped) .::.
Points Before the Game: 14/20

Lists:

Quote:
Teclis, 450 points
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ironcurse Icon, 170 points
Mage: Shadow, Forbidden Rod, 120 points

30 Archers, FCG, 330 points
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (Swap), 85 points
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (Swap), 85 points

36 White Lions, FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 548 points

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 70 points
Total: 1998 points


Quote:
Arch Lector, general, Fozzrik`s folding fortress 200
Wizard Lord, level 4, lore of life, obsidian lodestone, sceptre of stability 260
Captain, BSB, standard of dicipline 100
Wizard, level 1, lore of light, 65
Wizard, level 1, lore of light, dispel scroll 90
Wizard, level 1, lore of light, scroll of shielding 80
Wizard, level 2, lore of light, power stone 120

10 archers 70
10 archers 70
10 archers 70
10 archers 70
10 archers 70
25 handgunners, musician 235

Steam Tank 250
Steam Tank 250
Total: 2000


Pre-battle thoughts and deployment:

Upon seeing this list, the one important thing to realize is that my list cannot push here. Very few lists can push here, the list is deceptively hard to grab any points whatsoever from. With the Folding Fortress and a number of Skirmishing units backed up by 2 Steam Tanks, pushing is basically a nightmare if anything goes wrong. With Life-support for the STanks, Dwellers and 5 levels of Light magic, you basically cannot do this. Fighting this list essentially boils down to trading small points and taking opportunities that might present themselves. Luckily for me, Teclis is perfectly suited to doing just this.

The thing is though that he will *always* get off Dwellers first here. He can basically slingshot the wizard out ~15" with ease, maybe even 20" or so, without setting up anything and risking anything. To do this, he basically just deploys at the very backfield and congalines one unit of Archers towards the middle of the table. This means I have to bide my time and see if my magic can accomplish anything, if I push too early there´s too much risk involved: 2 STanks can try their luck against Teclis` LoS endlessly and if I go down to Dwellers, the STanks can counter-push for a 20-0.

Anyway, let`s get into the game. I picked Sun, Comet, Dwellers and Searing Doom. The latter should probably have been Final Transmutation for added pressure. From fire, I took Flaming Sword of Rhuin. Basically I feel he has to stop Comet all the time and Flaming Sword ensures my Archers can really put the hurt on him, plus it doubly powerful vs the Folding Fortress as it basically negates the effects of hard cover.

The following pictures show the deployment and first turn:

Image

Image

Image

Despite my +1, he went first. I think this is fine for me, as it increases my chances of doing wacky stuff late game and this will be slow anyways. He gets IF Banishment and kills an RBT. For his efforts, his L2 loses both levels, so the Banishment threat is gone. In my turn he dispels Comet and I rain Flaming Arrows on the Folding Fortress. Reavers move to safety.

Image

Image

As predicted his characters hang out at the back field with Skirmishers all over the place further up for all manner of shenanigans. I place my Lions and Archers to counter any aggression for him and I`m content with playing for the small points as a push is impossible. I place the Lions so that I can go into the house if needed.

Image

Image

Probably the most boring turn of the tournament, as you can tell from the pictures above nothing major happened. Or did it? In my T3, he burnt his scroll on a very high cast of comet. This is an interesting turn of events as I can suddenly put pressure on him: With the Scroll out he`s down to IF luck to have an advantage in the Dwellers duel. As such, he decides to go for the Life Wizard slingshot and get the first cast:

Image

Image

So the conga comes out and the Life wizard predictably jumps in. His Winds are low however and he fails to meet the casting value. I repay the favour after moving the Lions into the house and although a LOT of Archers die, the Wizard survives (I cannot seem to kill enemy wizards with Dwellers!). My shooting leaves me with some sense of hope, my Archers score a lot of hits on them and he has to allocate 2 on the wizard, who had already taken a wound from a miscast. I pray, but am not lucky enough as only 1 of them wound. I then proceed to fire upon the single 1W Wizard with 5 Reavers, managing 1 hit... LoS! fails... and I wound!! The push is real!

Image

He immediately retreats to reduce my odds of catching anything important.

Image

Retarded building rules allow me to slingshot Lions WAY into his area. I get off Dwellers on his bunker with an L1 Wizard, BSB and Arch Lector, but only the L1 goes down. He passes panic.

Image

He retreats with everything and tries to stank-snipe Teclis. I pass Look Out, Sir! and we go into my last phase of the game.

Image

Teclis sets up so that a 4+ will hit one stank, 6+ will hit both STanks (artillery dice, purple sun). I roll big for winds and start off with Miasma from my support wizard on the first STank. He lets it through and it`s now I1. I`m getting a decent cast of Purple Sun and with Teclis` +5 to cast and him only having +1 to dispel, he`s basically looking for double 6`s to stop the spell, which he annoyingly gets. With +500 VP (both Stanks, not too unlikely) this would be a healthy win for me, as it turned out it was just an 11-9 victory for the High Elves with me being just ~280 or so VP ahead.

Evaluation

A highly tactical game with little action where it was all about reducing risk, putting pressure on your opponent and playing for the counter-moves (e.g. setting up Archers to deny him an advance, him spreading out skirmishers to bounce around like crazy). I cast a ton of spells on 2-3D6 on Teclis, avoiding miscast risks as much as I could. I am having trouble understanding why he chose such a list for solo play, because in my opinion skilled players should realize that you simply cannot push against this. Clearly, I am wrong (he got 84 battle points and with him having only 9 against me, this is saying something about how hard the pushes he faced failed later on) and he ended up getting a great placement in the end. What I don`t understand is why people even try and push, but I can of course empathise with trying your best to get points, even if the chances of such a push going well are slim. No doubt, Sylvain is a skilled player as well, which is of course a big deal when playing an army like this ;)

Final Transmutation would possibly have allowed me to put some pressure on him and Searing Doom`s limited range meant I could never use it anyway, so not picking this was a mistake that I learned from. The rest of the spells were fine, with Net of Amyntok usually forcing him into prioritizing it vs Comet, with Savage Beast as a wild card in a Dwellers duel.

I think his timing was a bit off with the Dwellers gambit. I don`t see why he`d do it -after- his scroll is gone. I would either wait another turn (possibly forcing me to chill for a bit longer) or go earlier, if trying for a big win. The way I see it, he basically risked a 20-0 loss with his timing: I got Dwellers through on his bunker and only luck saved him losing big points here (true, I`d have to be lucky to get all the major characters but it can happen, furthermore the lack of BSB/general would make a big difference in LD tests in such a tight formation). Also, the T6 Purple Sun could also have taken loads of points and with a big phase I could`ve gone Dwellers here as well. Anyway, the gambit didn`t pay off but he walked away with a very small loss, given the circumstances.

I asked my opponent specifically about his choice of army for a singles event as its completely inability to push makes it very vulnerable to opponents refusing to fight or simply outranging him (though I suppose the latter are uncommon). By vulnerable, I don`t mean that it`ll lose big, but that it`ll be unable to grab big points. He basically said that this is his preferred playstyle as he despises losing more than he enjoys winning. A somewhat odd attitude to have for a singles event in my opinion, but it definitely worked out well for him ;) I think the deceptive nature of his list works in his favour here because semi-experienced opponents can often be lured by the apparent weakness of the Archers and push, which is of course a terrible idea. A more obvious list that you cannot touch, Teclis and 36 White Lions for a completely random comparison, is easier to understand that you can`t touch and thus let be alone.

To have the French people come and boost the average skill level was in my opinion a great addition to NM as it made for a lot of tough enemies to face and some different army ideas around than what we´re used to seeing. I felt lucky to meet one of them and despite the static nature of the game we had, it was an interesting encounter. Sylvain, if you`re reading this, thanks for a good game :)

Opponent`s Final Placing: 2/58
My Points: 25/40

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The thing is though that he will *always* get off Dwellers first here. He can basically slingshot the wizard out ~15" with ease, maybe even 20" or so, without setting up anything and risking anything. To do this, he basically just deploys at the very backfield and congalines one unit of Archers towards the middle of the table.

...

So the conga comes out and the Life wizard predictably jumps in.


You talk about this, and bouncing characters around - how does this work?

Also, nice exploit with the building land-grab.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@sparkytrypod - Oh please, do pay attention to these reports and you will understand why I don`t like uncomped play. 6-dicing big spells affects the game too much. True, you could argue that a different army composition would reduce this aspect, but my question then is what kind of HE list you`d take at 2k? I was unable to come up with anyone I had faith in, though to be fair I didn`t playtest any of the ideas I had either.

Next report coming right up!


I totally agree with you on uncomped play.

I went to a 2k uncomped tourney a few weeks ago and to be honest I took a somewhat similar list to yours, teclis, same archers, reavers and bolters, except I had swordmasters instead of lions #lovethefluff
The only game I lost big was 14-6 to irongut star, dual iron blaster. in turn 2, I failed my Los for teclis, full retreat then!
I couldn't come up with any other list I was happy with at 2k uncomped.

bit of a non-game again there, risk and reward eh. 2 small units of silver helms could have won the game!!!
but again getting the Win! nice one!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
The thing is though that he will *always* get off Dwellers first here. He can basically slingshot the wizard out ~15" with ease, maybe even 20" or so, without setting up anything and risking anything. To do this, he basically just deploys at the very backfield and congalines one unit of Archers towards the middle of the table.

...

So the conga comes out and the Life wizard predictably jumps in.


You talk about this, and bouncing characters around - how does this work?

Also, nice exploit with the building land-grab.


Skirmishing unit without the wizard conga lines out towards the target to be hit with dwellers.
The wizard then leaves the unit he is in and joins the conga lined unit using his own march move.
The wizard must move to the front rank of the unit as he is a character.
This means he will move well over his normal march allowance.

I believe that's the bulk of it, Curu may be able to explain more clearly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:01 pm 
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@Ferny - The unit the Wizard is in is ~8" away from another unit. The other unit then makes a reform, being Skirmishers they can easily congaline. They then move their full move ahead, ending up 8" away from said Wizard, in conga formation. As the Wizard is within 8" of this unit, he is legally allowed to join it. As characters have to move into the front rank, he is basically teleported way beyond what his movement allowance would suggest. I have done this before as well, for example in my IS #5 with my Loremaster joining Silver Helms. With big units, the shenanigans here are endless. With Skirmishers, the flexibility is insane. Take a look at this picture to help understand the situation:

Image

Case in question - NM #2 vs Empire. Wizard (small black box) is in Red unit. Green unit is 8" away from the Wizard. Green unit, being Skirmishers, free reform to a conga line and move close to their full allowance away from the Wizard. Said Wizard then jumps into Green unit and is teleported to the front rank, 20" away from his original position. This gives him an effective Dwellers threat range of 44" - quite insane!

Oh and yes, buildings are so ridiculous it`s not even funny. My French opponent put it like this: "You see, I don`t get why people take the Crown of Command when the Folding Fortress is available! You get all the benefits of being stubborn as well as having the ridiculous advantage that comes from placing and holding a building." With his 84bp second place (which also, incidentally, says something about the winner seeing as 84 bp is often enough to win!), you can`t really argue with the fact that the Folding Fortress is incredibly strong given the right army.

@sparkytrypod - Well I guess you all know I didn`t win this event so I`m not spoiling anything: The list which did win the event was actually an OK army (wielded by another French player, so at least 2 out of top 3 were French... At NM!) similar to what you describe: Gutstar (11) with all the toys (Runemaw, Scroll, Hellheart, Crown...), double Ironblasters, triple Gorgers, Heavens Wizard... He went 60-0 day one and ended up at 89bp, losing the last game to Skaven (which would`ve gone incredibly bad for him had he not rolled a `6` for the Hellheart which basically tore apart the entire Skaven advance) 9-11.

Your comment about Silver Helms is spot on and something I will re-visit in the evaluation of NM ;) It should be noted though that this game could easily have been 16-17 to me if the last 2 big spells (Dwellers and Purple Sun Turns 5 & 6, respectively) had scored some points. The Sun alone would`ve made it 15 if both STanks had fallen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:02 pm 
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sparkytrypod wrote:
Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
The thing is though that he will *always* get off Dwellers first here. He can basically slingshot the wizard out ~15" with ease, maybe even 20" or so, without setting up anything and risking anything. To do this, he basically just deploys at the very backfield and congalines one unit of Archers towards the middle of the table.

...

So the conga comes out and the Life wizard predictably jumps in.


You talk about this, and bouncing characters around - how does this work?

Also, nice exploit with the building land-grab.


Skirmishing unit without the wizard conga lines out towards the target to be hit with dwellers.
The wizard then leaves the unit he is in and joins the conga lined unit using his own march move.
The wizard must move to the front rank of the unit as he is a character.
This means he will move well over his normal march allowance.

I believe that's the bulk of it, Curu may be able to explain more clearly.


Is there any limit to the move he can make in this context?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
Is there any limit to the move he can make in this context?


Not under any comp system I have heard of, certainly not under any BRB rules. I frequently see people using this to grab a few inches, which is often enough to achieve the desired effect (e.g. an edge in a Dwellers duel), but moving beyond, say, 3x M is just hard to set up properly and get any value from. In this particular game however the constant threat of Dwellers being over 40" was a pain to deal with.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:33 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Ferny wrote:
Is there any limit to the move he can make in this context?


Not under any comp system I have heard of, certainly not under any BRB rules. I frequently see people using this to grab a few inches, which is often enough to achieve the desired effect (e.g. an edge in a Dwellers duel), but moving beyond, say, 3x M is just hard to set up properly and get any value from. In this particular game however the constant threat of Dwellers being over 40" was a pain to deal with.


Gotcha. Worth knowing.

On the BR - why is pushing so suicidal? Archers are only S3, winds of magic are fickle and stanks can be dealt with. It might be worse for T3 elves, but what about heavy metal empire or WoC? Target saturation surely means that they can only kill so much before you're into the squishy underbelly of the empire troops? I take it this absolutely is not the case, but why not?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:38 pm 
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If I push I expose Teclis to STank sniping. Over 6 turns, this can get real ugly, real fast. Furthermore while his scroll is intact I run a big risk of losing the Dwellers duel: If I lose this in an offensive position the STanks can grind down the Lions. With Life backup (he had Throne, Flesh, Regrowth and Dwellers - the Perfect 4) and me having close to no magic at all, it`s a huge threat. Besides, what am I to gain? He`ll only move Archers up and block me, double-fleeing continuously and never letting me reach anything important. All told, I`m risking a lot to gain close to nothing. The only way I can push is if his L4 dies. I used Forbidden Rod to draw the Scroll if I remember correctly and this opened up the game for me. Throughout the tournament the Forbidden Rod was by far the best investment I had made, which I was very happy with seeing as I was unsure whether it was better than a secondary scroll.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Is it generally true that its a hard list to push against, or is it specifically for (your) elf list? What about the 1+ armour lists - could they push against it? Good point on cannon sniping though, big risk for Teclis.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:12 pm 
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I don`t know what he met throughout the weekend but I know that everyone pushed against him and everyone (but me) lost, big. Game 1 I think he won 15 (almost same as me, I would expect this given that we were paired), which puts him at 24 points after G2. This means that his games 3, 4 and 5 were all 20-0s and as he increased his standings the games were supposed to become harder and harder. I just can`t think of a list it`s viable to push against this Empire army with. Not push in the traditional sense, anyway. The combination of S7 Banishment, Dwellers, lots of shooting and 2 STanks just makes it so hard to handle this list. If I were to design a list from scratch to push him I wouldn`t even know where to start. Possibly a High Elf deathtrain but you can easily find yourself stuck against the STanks before long and besides, with an L4 Death you can´t have a Prince and if you don`t have a Prince, you`re not good at grinding... Even then, there`s Dwellers.

Maybe some Dark Elf variant. With their speed they might be able to strike where it hurts before he can reply. Warlocks are also very strong vs STanks, they tie them up and with Life Magic he can really threaten the Empire back. Something like the list I faced game 5, perhaps:

Quote:
Dreadlord on Dark steed, general, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, giant blade, dawnstone 258
Supreme sorceress on Dark steed, level 4, lore of life 240
Master on Dark steed, BSB, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, lance 123
Master on Dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, lance, Other Trickster's shard 113
Master on Dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, lance, Ring of hotek 148
Master on Dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of might 112

19 Dark riders, FCG, shields, 353
5 Dark riders, shields 85
5 Dark riders, shields 85

5 harpies 75
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70

5 Doomfire warlocks 125
Total: 1997


How would you go about designing a list to push him?

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