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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:52 am 
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Reaver Bow is very cheap. I will consider this, but I do not understand why you consider savage beast to be dangerous?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:05 pm 
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What I meant was that if you are casting savage beast to close combat then your characters are fighting which I don't consider to be an ideal situation. Even with savage beasts on I wouldn't be comfortable putting those mages or even the BSB in contact with almost anything. This is where Seahelm helps you. Savage beast is a great spell but I don't think it is optimal in this kind of list. When you need to fight I think it is better to reform those characters away from combat and buff the lions instead.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Lions go 3 wide, command occupy front rank. If I am charged, I await my next magic phase. If all goes well, I make way with mages fighting with savage beast, if not, I maintain the 3-wide formation. You cannot reform characters away from combat so for this scenario a Sea Helm doesn`t help: I need to await my magic phase to see whether I can make way or not.

Do you have a scenario where it`s better to combat reform first, thus making the Sea Helm more valuable than the Noble? Remember that by going 3 wide, if you want to combat reform and keep your characters out of combat, you need to go something like 10 wide (4 characters + 3 command + 3 lions on one flank to make sure characters are not in B2B).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:52 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Do you have a scenario where it`s better to combat reform first, thus making the Sea Helm more valuable than the Noble? Remember that by going 3 wide, if you want to combat reform and keep your characters out of combat, you need to go something like 10 wide (4 characters + 3 command + 3 lions on one flank to make sure characters are not in B2B).


There must be plenty reasons why better players than me favour the Seahelm over Noble :) I just like the flexibility for little more points. If you are keeping the lions 3-wide without the ability to reform straight away, lots of things can charge you and potentially pin you in place for a turn. That could be a problem. It means no banishment and limited arc for direct damage for example.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:06 pm 
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That is true, but the Sea Helm typically comes into play when the WL are bigger, the support spells are better (e.g. Wyssans, Miasma, Earthblood etc from Loremaster) and the mages are fewer and less important. As for units charging just to hold, it could be an issue but seeing as I always want to cast Savage Beast on the BSB regardless, it`s a risky proposition. 6 S7 ASF attacks hurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:14 pm 
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I get your point. Charging in just to hold can be risky with savage beast + bsb. Getting the spell through often means that you win the combat and are free to make reform and potentially charge in your turn. I still like amber spear more though :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:17 pm 
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I feel amber spear is overkill and it leaves me without any close combat offense. I already have Banishment, Searing Doom, a few RBTs and Dwellers (with Enfeebling) for ranged threats. If something semi-nasty gets into b2b things could turn really ugly really quick, but Savage Beast can really help here (especially with Teclis).

I guess I have to start playtesting this ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:41 pm 
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I would actually skip both Savage and Amber Spear and aim for Curse of Anrahir for the Beasts spell. It gives you much greater board control and is hampering any deathstar type activity which seems rampant in your meta. I think its the best spell in the Lore hands down and is quite easy to cast. Your bunker should not be in combat anyway and Savage Beasts is not the Oh Shit button I would be pressing in that circumstance. Sure, its a fun spell and 6 str 7 asf attacks hurt... but then he's cut down and you lose your bsb, reaver bow and wasted a spell.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Malossar Dragonborne wrote:
I would actually skip both Savage and Amber Spear and aim for Curse of Anrahir for the Beasts spell. It gives you much greater board control and is hampering any deathstar type activity which seems rampant in your meta. I think its the best spell in the Lore hands down and is quite easy to cast. Your bunker should not be in combat anyway and Savage Beasts is not the Oh Shit button I would be pressing in that circumstance. Sure, its a fun spell and 6 str 7 asf attacks hurt... but then he's cut down and you lose your bsb, reaver bow and wasted a spell.


What deathstars do you think I would be having problems with @2k uncomped? :?:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:41 pm 
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From another thread:
Grenic wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate your list suggestions, but for now I want to give my list a round of playtesting before making considerable changes.
Curu, while I can understand this approach, I would still advise you to consider going with two 2nd level light mages with the same magic gear you have now on the mages instead of three. This would free enough points to add a Great Eagle. I have found having a Great Eagle to shadow the Lions is really helpful as it will give you at least two turns to prepare the Lions for whatever threat is pressing.

As for the Core, I would change to:
- 18 x Archers, Musician, Standard Bearer
- 5 x Reavers, Spears and Bows
- 5 x Reavers, Bows
- 5 x Silver Helms, Shields, Champion

The importance of adding the Silver Helms is that they are used to charge a second flyer when required. This allows you to focus on the other with magic and shooting.

Unfortunately, to do use this Core set-up, you would need to drop one lion model. If you did this, I would also drop the DA on the BSB and replace with heavy armour and a lion cloak. This saves a couple of points allowing you to add the Golden Crown of Atrazar to the model.

As for Teclis spells, these all match my typical selections, except for the Lore of Fire, I go with the flame cage. The ability to slow down large units tends to before valuable than the +1 to wound. If you are concerned about flaming attacks, you will likely have at least one shem's.


The importance of an Eagle or two is something I`ve been thinking about as well. I will consider tweaking the list to see if this can be done. I`m also inclined to agree that Flame Cage might be the more logical choice here, especially as it helps out vs armies I`m kind of weak against.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:30 am 
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Just read through your Teclis list design idea and I actually had been pondering a very similar style of list (scaled to 2400) a little while ago.

Quote:
2400pt High Elves 8th Ed Roster

Lords
(450pts)

Teclis

Heroes (525pts)

Lothern Sea Helm
Battle Standard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of the Myrwyrm, The Reaver Bow

Mage
Lore of Light, Level 2 Wizard, Forbidden Rod

Mage
Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll

Mage
Lore of Light

Core (610pts)

20x Archer, Musician , Standard Bearer

5x Ellyrian Reaver, Bow Only

5x Ellyrian Reaver, Bow Only

5x Ellyrian Reaver, Bow Only

5x Silver Helms, High Helm, Musician, Shields

Special (535pts)

35x White Lion, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon

Rare (280pts)

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower



Never got around to testing it so I will be interested to hear how you go with your list.

I was more or less thinking of using savage beast the same way as you (though with the sea helm shenanigans). Given all the threat spells, I figure I can probably cast savage beast (potentially boosted) when his units start getting into a position to threaten Teclis' WL and make the opponent think hard about charging in. Meanwhile, I get s8 reaver bow shots in the shooting phase with the threat of more as a stand and shoot (though this obviously is an alternative to Sea Helm reform so it would depend on what I was being charged by).

I was actually leaning towards final trans instead of searing doom (given dual banishment, savage beast reaver bow and bolt throwers galore) as I felt the list lacked somewhat in the ability to thin certain big units (if dispel is prioritizing dwellers). I was thinking comet over harmonic to discourage enemy advance but given that MR is becoming common, I'm reconsidering this.
Thinking withering over enfeebling too but they are both good choices IMO.

A few other minor differences but I think the lists would play more or less the same. What I like is the redundancy (between spells and shooting) for hurting just about every type of unit at range and the chaff (including the cheaper mages if necessary) to keep nastiness away from Teclis.
Hope it goes well for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Hey gaz, thanks for an in-depth reply! First of all I have a couple of list ideas I would like to talk about, but first I have to do a small recap ;) Will get back to your points very soon!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Today has been a really long but very entertaining, relaxed and fun day. My gaming club, 2d6, celebrated its 10 year anniversary. Members old and new alike were invited and in true Warhammer-spirit the main event of the day was a 3-game tournament called "Beerhammer". This was a doubles tournament where pairs were drawn randomly. At first I was just intending to bring something I usually don`t but when I saw list discussions start on our internal forum I quickly realized that taking Archers vs 5 Beasts of Nurgle and 3 Plague Drones is simply not fun to play. Instead I joined the bandwagon.


.::. Beerhammer - 800 points doubles tournament .::.

The rules were quite simple: All allies count roughly as trusted allies. I.e. you cause panic, no tests for random behaviour etc. Winds are split, characters can join units and so (within the rules in the relevant army books). When making the list I quickly realized I had to cover "all bases by myself" so I took a bit of everything, making a robust addition to any team member I could get. After some tweaks I had the following:

Quote:
Death Archmage = 185
Noble BSB, Halberd, Ring of Fury = 122

5 Reavers = 80
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 125

16 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 288

Army Total = 800


One of the stronger configurations I believe HE can bring to the table. Upon seeing other people taking stuff like 30 Hexwraiths, 20 Trueflight Archers + 10 Waywatchers etc I didn`t feel this was over the top.

For the tournament I drew a good friend of mine, the same guy I played vs in my last report (Dark Elves). He had a pretty hard Daemons army (basically the only time ever I get to play HE + DoC as trusted allies!) with Nurgle Regen Herald in 15 Plaguebearers with Swiftness banner, 4 Beasts and 3 poisoned Drones.

Game 1 saw us draw an OnG + HE alliance with no mages and no BSBs. What they lacked in terms of psychology and magic they made up for in terms of shooting: RBT + 8 Sisters + Doom Diver were staring across at us. The game plan here was to wrap around on the flanks and send Purple Sun (which I managed to roll) across their entire army. After a truly terrible start for them we managed to achieve our early goals.

Image
With Animosity keeping the greenskins at bay, we took complete control of the map and obliterated the threats systematically through death magic, fast units and reign of chaos

Purple Sun did its job, going through the majority of their army twice. With a perfect start for us as well this set them up for a terrible endgame where everything just vaporized. We won by ~1600VP, 20-0.

Game 2 saw us draw a surprisingly hard alliance in the shape of Beastmen and Empire. Empire had 4 Demis + cannon along with 10 IC Knights and a captasus -and- a Luminark. Beastmen had big blocks and a Lord with LD9 and lots of attacks, but with a magic weapon. They also had an L2 mage with a scroll (!). Our problem here was that we had nothing that could easily take care of demis. Furthermore I didn`t get purple sun.

After a few tactical turns which we got the better of, we were in luck (mildly put) as their caster turned into a Tzeentch Herald, which picked Searing Doom and cast it boosted on his Demigryphs to claim 5W. This basically turned the tables around: From trading death snipes vs cannonballs we now had another threat that was very serious for them. They opted for an all-in gamble, sending Demis into Beasts but opening up for Lions.

Image
The Lions and Drones have a surprising combo-charge due to the opening from the Demis on the main Beastmen bunker. The Demis didn`t manage to break the Beasts either

We went into the main unit which basically just got destroyed and managed to wipe out the rest, systematically, as well. Somehow we ended up yielding 0BP while we took everything plus bonuses for another 20-0.

Game 3, the last game of the tournament, saw us draw DoC + OK. The former had the most varied army we played today, with bloodletters, horrors, screamers and a skullcannon, all led by a Khorne Herald on Juggernaut. Considering the rest we faced, pretty soft. The OK army, while strong in its own right (Ironguts + Mournfang) had some serious issues with our setup. The following picture pretty much sums up what the other team`s feelings were when I rolled Purple Sun:

Image

We proceeded to send the Helms and Beasts flanking wide, with the Lions taking a strong, central position supported by Plaguebearers and Drones. Our opponents decided to commit fully which gave us 2 turns of perfect Purple Sun angles. The dice gods agreed as they gave me a `10` on the artillery dice both times, which basically killed off the entire OK army. Prior to this Reign of Chaos + Spirit Leech had already taken out their Skullcannon. Given their commitment they already had the Daemons engaged to the WL ("holding them up to buy time for the Ogres to smash puny Elves" as they called it) and Drones. With the hitting power gone and the Lions still a healthy 7 or so remaining there was little they could do when Plaguebearers and Beasts were finally brought to bear as well. We ended up giving up the Reavers while cleaning the table for yet another 20-0.

Over 3 games then we had claimed 60/60 points and only given up 230VP combined. We won the tournament, coming in first out of 20 teams (40 players) :D We were very lucky to draw eachother as our armies matched up so well. Basically the Nurgle troops augmented and supported the Lions so well it was ridiculous and reign of chaos + L3 death just single-handedly won Warhammer. I am so used to playing with armies that are tailored to withstanding Death (to some degree at least) because it is so common, this was a reminder just how broken this lore is in a meta where people don`t expect it. The tournament was very relaxed and chill (we played from 13:00 => 00:30, only managing three games), with lots of socializing in-between games and no-one taking it very seriously. Of course everyone played to win, but you get my point. Good times were had by all and towards the end there was hardly a sober guy in the room.

I also had lots of time to discuss various builds, the meta and the upcoming Norwegian Masters (2k uncomped) with lots of skilled players. I will deal with this in a separate post. If you managed to read this wall of text thus far, I suggest you read the next post as well seeing as it`ll be more analytical and to-the-point than this long-winded description of a wacky tournament ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:01 am 
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As promised, a short analysis of playing Teclis, including opportunities, synergies and meta-perspectives.


.::. The Teclis Conundrum .::.

My original suggestion for a Teclis list invested lots of points in augmenting the already formidable magic phase he provides. While in itself not necessarily bad, I was advised to instead think of the units and the possible synergies here with the smaller spells. As one guy put it: "Don`t think 20WL with Wyssan`s, think 40WL in Horde with Blades of Aiban!!" Basically 20 more WL aren`t that expensive considering my mages and after all, this tournament is uncomped.

Let`s recap and look at the original draft:

Quote:
Teclis 450 (Flaming Sword of Ruin, Searing Doom, Savage Beast of Horros, Enfeebling Foe, Harmonic Convergence, Purple Sun, Dwellers Below, Banishment)
Noble BSB, Reaver Bow, Merwyrm Shield, Dragon Armour = 145
Mage, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll = 110
Mage, Lore of Light, Forbidden Rod = 120
Mage, Level 2, Lore of Light, Ironcurse Icon = 125
Characters = 950

20 Archers, Musician & Champion = 220
10 Archers, Musician = 110
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

20 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 340

3 RBTs = 210

Army Total = 2000


Apart from Teclis, we have 355 points invested directly in magic. True, Forbidden Rod, S7 Banishment and a second scroll are all very strong elements, but 355 points is also a LOT of white lions. With a Sea Helm, this unit can basically take on close to any enemy unit in the game. When thinking about the sheer scale of this, imagine what spells like Flaming Sword of Rhuin and Enchanted Blades of Aiban can do. Suddenly, Searing Doom does not look like such a necessity to deal with armour.

Recapping the lores, Enfeebling and Dwellers are locked down. They are both insanely strong spells with amazing synergy. Mindrazor is also overkill here as Lions already hit very hard, the spell is hard to cast and it doesn`t help my survivability. Enfeebling lets the Lions fight hordes to a much greater degree for example. Purple Sun is also a given, due to the sheer fact that it counters Nurgle Daemons so heavily and it basically just wins games vs OK, DW and CD. Savage Beast I also largely consider a must, though mostly because I can cast it defensively on Teclis in a Dwellers-war, actually. As has been argued multiple times already here on Ulthuan, using it as a panic button with mages might not be the best of times since I`m still only T3 no saves.

This leaves Fire, Metal, Light and Heavens. Fire is easy when considering the scale issue: Flaming Sword of Rhuin is an amazing spell for White Lions. If they do end up fighting something really tough (not unlikely), this helps them put the pressure on. Fire damage on demand is also highly valuable vs e.g. Troll and Nurgle Daemons. Metal is the same, Blades of Aiban make the Lions appear to be sheer can-openers. The true beauty of these spells combined however comes with a slight change in core setup: combining the Archers into a single unit gives me a horde which can really put out a lot of damage with these 2 buffs. Being cheap to cast is also a huge plus, there are simply so many must-stop spells.

With leaving the Banishment concept at home, we ironically gain another super-powerful spell: Timewarp. Timewarping 20 Lions is not that big of a deal uncomped. 40 on the other hand is completely different issue. In a perfect world scenario, this is 50 attacks. At S6. Possibly with +1 to hit, armour piercing, +1 to wound.

Lastly then, to complement this new list approach, Heavens take the opposite direction where we move from a small spell to a big spell. With Blades + Sword forming the basis of our small spells, one of Warhammer`s signature spells fit the bill perfectly. Comet of Casandora grants the list tons of board control and can also pretty much be dropped on top of the Lions if they face something tough (e.g. Daemon Prince). Furthermore, with Teclis being L5, the boosted version is not -that- big of a stretch if it`s crucial (72.5% success on 6D6).

To summarize, I think I`ve basically found a completely different way to play the Teclis list that I have more faith in. I`m not saying the Light Council can`t work, but I just feel more confident in this list`s ability to compete. Let`s look at a specific draft:

Quote:
Teclis (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Savage Beast of Horros, Comet of Casandora, Enfeebling Foe, Dwellers Below, Birona`s Timewarp, Purple Sun) - 450
Sea Helm BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar - 175

30 Archers, FC = 330
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

40 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 600

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210
1 Great Eagle = 50

Army Total = 1985


Time to start painting more White Lions and Friends, I suppose ;) A variation of this last list is to drop an RBT and a few small things to get an L1 mage with Forbidden Rod which is basically insanely potent with Teclis. If the scroll is out (which I do believe it will often be early on), you can turn any non-5/6 DD phase into a true nightmare.

As always, C&C much appreciated :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:43 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Today has been a really long but very entertaining, relaxed and fun day. My gaming club, 2d6, celebrated its 10 year anniversary. Members old and new alike were invited and in true Warhammer-spirit the main event of the day was a 3-game tournament called "Beerhammer". This was a doubles tournament where pairs were drawn randomly. At first I was just intending to bring something I usually don`t but when I saw list discussions start on our internal forum I quickly realized that taking Archers vs 5 Beasts of Nurgle and 3 Plague Drones is simply not fun to play. Instead I joined the bandwagon.


.::. Beerhammer - 800 points doubles tournament .::.

The rules were quite simple: All allies count roughly as trusted allies. I.e. you cause panic, no tests for random behaviour etc. Winds are split, characters can join units and so (within the rules in the relevant army books). When making the list I quickly realized I had to cover "all bases by myself" so I took a bit of everything, making a robust addition to any team member I could get. After some tweaks I had the following:

Quote:
Death Archmage = 185
Noble BSB, Halberd, Ring of Fury = 122

5 Reavers = 80
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion = 125

16 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 288

Army Total = 800


One of the stronger configurations I believe HE can bring to the table. Upon seeing other people taking stuff like 30 Hexwraiths, 20 Trueflight Archers + 10 Waywatchers etc I didn`t feel this was over the top.

For the tournament I drew a good friend of mine, the same guy I played vs in my last report (Dark Elves). He had a pretty hard Daemons army (basically the only time ever I get to play HE + DoC as trusted allies!) with Nurgle Regen Herald in 15 Plaguebearers with Swiftness banner, 4 Beasts and 3 poisoned Drones.

Game 1 saw us draw an OnG + HE alliance with no mages and no BSBs. What they lacked in terms of psychology and magic they made up for in terms of shooting: RBT + 8 Sisters + Doom Diver were staring across at us. The game plan here was to wrap around on the flanks and send Purple Sun (which I managed to roll) across their entire army. After a truly terrible start for them we managed to achieve our early goals.

Image
With Animosity keeping the greenskins at bay, we took complete control of the map and obliterated the threats systematically through death magic, fast units and reign of chaos

Purple Sun did its job, going through the majority of their army twice. With a perfect start for us as well this set them up for a terrible endgame where everything just vaporized. We won by ~1600VP, 20-0.

Game 2 saw us draw a surprisingly hard alliance in the shape of Beastmen and Empire. Empire had 4 Demis + cannon along with 10 IC Knights and a captasus -and- a Luminark. Beastmen had big blocks and a Lord with LD9 and lots of attacks, but with a magic weapon. They also had an L2 mage with a scroll (!). Our problem here was that we had nothing that could easily take care of demis. Furthermore I didn`t get purple sun.

After a few tactical turns which we got the better of, we were in luck (mildly put) as their caster turned into a Tzeentch Herald, which picked Searing Doom and cast it boosted on his Demigryphs to claim 5W. This basically turned the tables around: From trading death snipes vs cannonballs we now had another threat that was very serious for them. They opted for an all-in gamble, sending Demis into Beasts but opening up for Lions.

Image
The Lions and Drones have a surprising combo-charge due to the opening from the Demis on the main Beastmen bunker. The Demis didn`t manage to break the Beasts either

We went into the main unit which basically just got destroyed and managed to wipe out the rest, systematically, as well. Somehow we ended up yielding 0BP while we took everything plus bonuses for another 20-0.

Game 3, the last game of the tournament, saw us draw DoC + OK. The former had the most varied army we played today, with bloodletters, horrors, screamers and a skullcannon, all led by a Khorne Herald on Juggernaut. Considering the rest we faced, pretty soft. The OK army, while strong in its own right (Ironguts + Mournfang) had some serious issues with our setup. The following picture pretty much sums up what the other team`s feelings were when I rolled Purple Sun:

Image

We proceeded to send the Helms and Beasts flanking wide, with the Lions taking a strong, central position supported by Plaguebearers and Drones. Our opponents decided to commit fully which gave us 2 turns of perfect Purple Sun angles. The dice gods agreed as they gave me a `10` on the artillery dice both times, which basically killed off the entire OK army. Prior to this Reign of Chaos + Spirit Leech had already taken out their Skullcannon. Given their commitment they already had the Daemons engaged to the WL ("holding them up to buy time for the Ogres to smash puny Elves" as they called it) and Drones. With the hitting power gone and the Lions still a healthy 7 or so remaining there was little they could do when Plaguebearers and Beasts were finally brought to bear as well. We ended up giving up the Reavers while cleaning the table for yet another 20-0.

Over 3 games then we had claimed 60/60 points and only given up 230VP combined. We won the tournament, coming in first out of 20 teams (40 players) :D We were very lucky to draw eachother as our armies matched up so well. Basically the Nurgle troops augmented and supported the Lions so well it was ridiculous and reign of chaos + L3 death just single-handedly won Warhammer. I am so used to playing with armies that are tailored to withstanding Death (to some degree at least) because it is so common, this was a reminder just how broken this lore is in a meta where people don`t expect it. The tournament was very relaxed and chill (we played from 13:00 => 00:30, only managing three games), with lots of socializing in-between games and no-one taking it very seriously. Of course everyone played to win, but you get my point. Good times were had by all and towards the end there was hardly a sober guy in the room.

I also had lots of time to discuss various builds, the meta and the upcoming Norwegian Masters (2k uncomped) with lots of skilled players. I will deal with this in a separate post. If you managed to read this wall of text thus far, I suggest you read the next post as well seeing as it`ll be more analytical and to-the-point than this long-winded description of a wacky tournament ;)



Such tounaments I like the most :)
in 2 weeks time we are having also a 2x1200 turney, but with serious comp, so no L3 death :)
Nevertheless, congrats! Winning an event is always a big deal :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:09 am 
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Thanks, Galharen :) It truly was a lot of fun and the armies we met were very varied, the dynamics of the games were completely different from what I`m used to. Banning lord level mages would likely be a good start for a comp such as this, the problem then would be that HE @800 cannot afford a BSB and a mage apart from very bare-bones setups, which I think is a major drawback. The point of this tournament was just to have fun though, with many of the participants not having played for a long time (these were typically paired with active and knowledgeable players so not all pairs were random).

Having thought a bit about the Teclis Conundrum I`ve come to the initial conclusion that I think I need the Forbidden Rod. It`s just such an insane item when you get an otherwise poor magic phase, in fact it downright wins games if you have already drawn the scroll of your opponent. Specific list draft:

Quote:
Teclis (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Savage Beast of Horros, Comet of Casandora, Enfeebling Foe, Dwellers Below, Birona`s Timewarp, Purple Sun) - 450
Sea Helm BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm - 165
Shadow Mage, Forbidden Rod - 120

30 Archers, FC = 330
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

38 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 574

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 140
1 Great Eagle = 50

Army Total = 1999

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:39 am 
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Some more pictures from Beerhammer, taken by a fellow club member (Frederique the ETC judge for those who know him):

Image
Skaven can bring ridiculous amounts of rats, even at 2x800 points. The only 2 Skaven players drew eachother, for a combined might of 250 models. at 1600 points, yes.

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Anniversary cake!

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This photo perfectly captures the feel of Beerhammer. The pair on the left were our opponents game 1. Also notice the Cognac Club at the far end ;)

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Deployment, game 3

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Close up: Team Stank (2x Empire) vs Dark Elves. Far end: A small crowd gathers around our table as Game 3 eaches its climax with Purple Sun devastating the Ogres

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Tired but happy winners at 00:30!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:29 am 
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looks good :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Nice work! Looks like a good time.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Gratulerer!

I have to say it was a joy, hearing people talking about that Stardragon, nobody really fancied their chanses against it. So maybe its a better choise than most in here belive it to be? To bad about the game vs Lasse, he can be a pain to play sometimes, had to play him 7 times in a row, with that army, even though he had 2 other armies to chose from, kinda tiresome.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Thanks guys, it was a good time indeed ;)

@Browncastle - many of the lists could do with some more tweaking. Under SLoS I most definitely believe the SD can work, but I think a second Frostheart is vastly superior to RBTs. Had it not been for BSK preparation I likely would`ve brought this instead.

Played a Teclis mirror-matchup today. A short report will come when I find the time!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:01 pm 
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First game with Teclis, and I was facing HE... With Teclis.

.::. Battle Report - 2000 vs High Elves (uncomped) .::.

My list:
Quote:
Teclis (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Savage Beast of Horros, Comet of Casandora, Enfeebling Foe, Dwellers Below, Birona`s Timewarp, Purple Sun) - 450
Sea Helm BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm - 165
Shadow Mage, Forbidden Rod - 120

30 Archers, FC = 330
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

38 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 574

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 140
1 Great Eagle = 50

Army Total = 1999


His list:
Quote:
Teclis
Lothern Sea Helm, Reaver Bow, Shield of The Merwyrm, Ironcurse Icon
18 Archers
6 Helms, Musician, Champion
6 Helms, Musician, Champion

27 WL, FC, BOTWD

1 Frostheart
3 RBTs


I wasn`t particularly looking forward to this game as whoever gets Dwellers through/destroys Dwellers first has a huge advantage, to the point where playing the rest of the game is pointless. Anyway I was looking forward to playing a different kind of HE list and furthermore this match would certainly teach me a thing or two about playing this list, regardless of how boring the matchup is.

The following pictures show the deployment and early game (I went first):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Before I had finished deployment I realized I had made a huge mistake. WL 3 wide is terrible with 3 characters: By putting them all into this unit an RBT single bolt would randomize onto one of them. Not good, lesson learned: Vs Elves, deploy WL 4 wide. Sea Helm can go into the front rank.

My opponent deployed Teclis behind his own WL. As I was without any magic missiles, he reckoned this was the best move seeing as I could not cast Dwellers on Teclis T1 then.

I went first and marched everything up. He dispelled Savage Beast, I got Enfeebling on his Lions. His T1 saw him march Frostie up vs Archers. Teclis joined WL and Dwellered me, I scrolled but failed to do kill it off.

After this we both tried Dwellering eachother while his shooting tore up my support and the Phoenix tore up the Archers. Eventually my Teclis died T3 (his scroll was still up, I took too large risks with my magical strategy) and I conceded the game.

// Evaluation //

I learned a few things about this style of play. Firstly, the Eagle is largely unnecessary here because I have the deathstar. There is hardly a unit in the game I don`t want to fight. True, a few exceptions exist, but I think investing into more shooting is better. Eagle and a Lion or two will be swapped for a third RBT.

Dweller-matchups are largely about getting it off first. If nothing else, it`s a big advantage. I need to use the Archers and Smoke and Mirrors to help me achieve this. Character placement should be flexible, in many matchups the Lions are not a natural place for any or everyone to go.

Lastly deployment and early game moves need to be tighter. Allowing the Frostheart to land like that was poor on my part.

Short report, boring matchup. Hope you enjoyed anyway ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:32 am 
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Hi Curu. Thanks for the report.

I was just wondering why you felt obligated to push to get dwellers early.

My first thought was to try and pick off the points he had on the left in the Frostheart and and Silver Helms.

That Frostheart really looked vulnerable to me where he put it his T1 as both purple sun and flaming sword on archers are dangerous for it and it as are counter charges if he goes into the archers (also a potential savage beast reaver bow). It seems like there might be potential to draw the scroll here (though scrolling would probably be sub optimal from him). His left Silver Helms could easily give up some points to bolt throwers + reaver bow where they are whereas you could run your reavers and eagle out of range (given they can't really do much in this matchup anyway).

I recognize that he had an extra bolt thrower but that doesn't seem like that much of an advantage if you hide the smaller units that are more vulnerable. I recognize that it's a concern that he gets the first dwellers attempt if he comes to you (and not the other way around) but he got first dwellers attempt anyway. Were his spells more threatening from range than yours making pushing mandatory?

Thanks again,
Gaz


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:46 am 
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Hey Gaz, I felt obligated to push because this is a list I intend to take to Norwegian Master`s and I don`t want to play 10-10 games @Master`s unless I absolutely have to. Thus, pushing here was to see how the Dwellers-matchup develops when you go aggressive. TL;DR is that it doesn`t work with such a blunt approach as I had here. What I probably should have done was to bide my time and get small spells through early: Though my opponent had an extra RBT and Fireball on Teclis, I had Comet (he had Iceshard) and Flaming Sword of Rhuin.

The Frostheart was not vulnerable seeing as we play with SLoS, thus it was hidden behind the hill. Same for the SH.

In hindsight the better play would be to have Teclis and BSB with Archers and use Lions to zone out the Frost, taking control of that part of the map. This would also keep Teclis outside of Dwellers-range and if his Lions go up with his Teclis, I can jump into my own and Dweller him first.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:27 am 
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Short list update. First, the original:

Quote:
Teclis (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Savage Beast of Horros, Comet of Casandora, Enfeebling Foe, Dwellers Below, Birona`s Timewarp, Purple Sun) - 450
Sea Helm BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm - 165
Shadow Mage, Forbidden Rod - 120

30 Archers, FC = 330
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

38 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 574

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 140
1 Great Eagle = 50

Army Total = 1999


I`m basically just looking to get rid of the Eagle in favour of another RBT. 4 RBTs would be good but I`m afraid it`ll cost the Lions too much. I could be wrong and I need to make a more thorough meta-analysis if I want to go down this road.

Quote:
Teclis (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Savage Beast of Horros, Comet of Casandora, Enfeebling Foe, Dwellers Below, Birona`s Timewarp, Purple Sun) - 450
Sea Helm BSB, Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ironcurse Icon - 170
Shadow Mage, Forbidden Rod - 120

30 Archers, FC = 330
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 500

36 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon = 548

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 210

Army Total = 1998


I need to ditch another 5 Lions to make room for a 4th RBT, lowering them from 36 => 31. The reason why this is a problem is largely that the way things are now, if something charges me I can reform to horde and get 4 ranks of attacks. To do this however they need to be over 30 strong.

I am a bit worried about meeting stuff that basically outshoots me. I`m not talking about gunlines like DW and some Empire variants because the 4th RBT won`t make a difference here. I`m more concerned with High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Lizardmen. I suppose the question is how frequent I expect them to be relative to WoC, DoC, EMP and other flavour of HE/DE. I`m hoping 4 RBTs will be the sweet spot where I can thrive.

I am also contemplating swapping the Forbidden Rod for another scroll. More playtesting needed.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:30 pm 
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I see that you got enfeebling, you have a potenial game breaker in Dwellers match ups, in the spell light net of annoiak(cant spell this:/). Putting net up first, then dwellers, If first one were let through, an he dispels dwellers, you trow of enfeebling and his unit is stuck, and very litle chanse for any Magic in his NexT turn, or moving shooting or whatever.

If he dispels net, og for enfeebling, then dwellers:P

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Browncastle wrote:
I see that you got enfeebling, you have a potenial game breaker in Dwellers match ups, in the spell light net of annoiak(cant spell this:/). Putting net up first, then dwellers, If first one were let through, an he dispels dwellers, you trow of enfeebling and his unit is stuck, and very litle chanse for any Magic in his NexT turn, or moving shooting or whatever.

If he dispels net, og for enfeebling, then dwellers:P

There is obviously some synergy in the spells you mention Browncastle. With only a single credible combat unit however, I think Timewarp is a much better spell for several reasons. Obviously it grants an extra attack to the WL-star but its real value is in movement and creating the correct matchups at the right time for that unit. As such it is more valuable than the other spells in the lore.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:19 pm 
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@Browncastle - We still don`t know how NM will practice wizards who get to choose their spells, i.e. will they be able to choose from game to game or do we need to send the spells in with the rosters? My selection for Teclis is based on an all-comers environment then. In many matchups I suspect other spells would be more valuable. Net is a good example here as vs Teclis, I´d much rather have this than Timewarp, but Timewarp allows for the Lions to pull off some amazing moves in many others.

@John Rainbow - exactly. I know a lot of people who have different views on this. I`m still on the Timewarp side but I can definitely see the arguments for Net.

Next game tomorrow, also vs HE. Unsure of what list I`ll face.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:28 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@John Rainbow - exactly. I know a lot of people who have different views on this. I`m still on the Timewarp side but I can definitely see the arguments for Net.

I think with this list Timewarp and the movement is more valuable as you are so dependent on getting that one unit where it needs to be. You have some shooting that can cover this issue by killing chaff, etc but I don't think you have enough to ensure that the unit can get where it needs to be. Did you consider a more chaff heavy list similar to that which Grenic used in designing your list or did you feel that such a list bleeds too many points?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Looking forward to see more games With teclis, wont be able to og to NM, but lll play some games With the comp, just here in stavanger, I think some of the guys from here are going. Ill probly go With something smilar to Your last list this saturday. Have you considered using highmagic? 6+ to cast and loremaster, is really good, imagine walk between on 35 lions, and some much needed ward save on teclis.

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