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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:22 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Next game is tomorrow vs Dwarfs ;)


We were going to play the Watchtower, right?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:03 pm 
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I think it was, I also believe you were allowed to start with your Lord there and 20" extended deployment, so 40" from the tower to your WMs ;)

Big wall of text (basically an elaboration on IS14 meta-musings) regarding the current metagame: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67053&p=884334#p884334 :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Some list development thoughts (back to the cavbus + infantry list): What I discovered during Indian Summer was that High Magic was insane with Phoenix Guard, whereas the Loremaster wasn`t quite as effective as he`s proved previously. The list also sorely needs a Frostheart I believe, in order to put pressure on the enemy. I`ll be looking to unfortunately leave the Loremaster at home and shave off some characters:

Cavbus PG v2.0 wrote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604

20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875

Army Total = 2372


TL;DR - dropped 2 Nobles, got a Frostheart ;) Remaining points can probably be spent on another PG and a Reaver Champ, but as I`m not playing this list anytime soon I just thought I`d get the evolution draft up before I forget it!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:55 pm 
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I just came back from 2 games vs Strange. In one game I decided to try a really passive approach. The TL;DR of this game which truly isn`t worth of a BR is that I kept Dragon + Frostheart + Reavers in an opposite corner of the map relative to his army, out of range of anything. The bus tried to get something going but couldn`t do it. I think that if HE plays this right, DW can`t win bigger than 12-8 (barring luck with panic etc) and HE will be lucky to get 11-9, anything more than that is close to impossible. We ended up 10-10, Strange was 140 points ahead.

The second game saw me try to push and was, naturally, a lot more interesting which highlighted a few aspects of the game I wasn`t aware about. Report and musings to follow :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Short report vs a true gunline, an interesting match that taught me a lot. Prior to this game I had played corner-hammer to see if the bus could create openings vs Dwarfs. Long story short, it`s not likely to happen. The match will usually be 11-9 to DW when played like this I believe, and going beyond 12-8 favouring DW or 11-9 favoring HE takes a lot. Strange was ahead by 140 points in our game, which was a 10-10. This time, I was determined to see if a push would be viable...

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Dwarfs (ETC comp) .::.

My list:
Prince on Star Dragon: Dragonhelm, Star Lance, Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Shield = 598
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Ogre Blade = 134
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll = 155
Mage L2 on Steed = 130
Characters = 1195

16 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 398
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers, bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, champ = 90
Core = 653

3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
2 Eagles = 100
Rare = 550

Army total = 2398

His list:
Dwarf Lord, general, Shieldbearers, shield, Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Might - 313

Runesmith, shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking - 113
Runesmith, shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking - 138
Thane, BSB, shield, Master Rune of Groth One-Eye - 168

25 Longbeards, FCG, Shields, Great Weapons, 3x Rune of Sanctuary - 450
10 Quarrelers, veteran, great weapons - 150

Cannon, Rune of Forging - 145
Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning - 150
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy - 130
Grudge Thrower, Rune of Forging, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating - 170
Gyrocopter - 80
Gyrocopter - 80

20 Irondrakes, musician - 310

Totalt: 2397

I got double Soul Quench, Arcane Unforging and Apotheosis.

The following pictures show deployment and turns 1 + 2:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

So here`s what happened: with my 5 chaff drops he was completely commited by the time I deployed anything relevant. I got the RBTs in a corner where their job was to thin Longbeards to the best of their ability with both monsters hidden from the WMs by a big hill (his side had 2 hills like this). I was lucky and grabbed turn 1. The bus moved up big with everything behind. I took care to screen monsters from WMs and managed to get Irondrakes in vision for the Frostheart. My magic phase saw him try and destroy arcane unforging but he failed.

In his turn he tried to counteract my aggression but to be honest, it`s very hard with him not being able to deal with my heavy hitters. The lord went into Irondrakes to prevent Frostheart from engaging. He got lucky and landed an indirect shot on the Frostheart but I warded it.

T2 I positioned the Dragon similar to the Frostheart: barely seeing the Longbeards (I didn`t have enough movement for this T1) alongside the bus, with the Frostheart still threatening his Irondrakes. Reavers moved up as well as Eagles to go super-blocky T3. His response was to simply back off a bit and this is where the pictures end: After this I landed bus + SD into Longbeards, killing off everything and unforging his stubborn banner (he spent his second scroll in the previous turn stopping unforging). I killed all the Longbeards and overran into WMs with the Prince reforming for options with the Frostheart. His Irondrakes were blocked by 5 units: 2 Eagles, 2 Reavers and 1 of his own gyros. It was impossible for him to do anything. The lord charged out on a blocked and I double-fled. The Lord was stranded on his own so the Dragon + Frostheart tore into the Drakes. The carnage was great. In the last turns of the game the Dragon + Frostheart combo-charged the T10 W5 Dwarf Lord and actually managed to kill him in the very last combat phase of the game. 20-0 victory to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

I need to evaluate the ETC maps for this year a bit closer. This game was played on map 4 (pictures of the map will come in a dedicated post soon) which basically has 2 hills outside the same deployment zone. I chose the opposite side, which forced Strange into cornering behind a hill (or taking the middle and allowing me 2 hills to approach behind). This is huge because consider it like this: when I can advance like this it`s impossible for Dwarfs to win, barring insane luck on the indirect shots and/or panic tests. Let`s say it`s a 16-17 point win on average. If he gets the "empty" side, i.e. the one without LoS-blocking terrain, I can counter-corner him and go 10-10. What on paper seems to be a bad matchup then is actually heavily in my favour.

Interestingly, what a Dwarf player seeks to accomplish under this situation is to force an enemy to commit before he can deploy the juicy stuff out of LoS from the WMs. The infamous Danish ETC list with 7 (!!) copters suddenly make a lot more sense to me (although I was impressed earlier by the non-committing drops and redirectors, I didn`t realize until today how important this can be).

This situation rings true for a lot of matchups where I`m facing cannons. Some rules of thumb are worth noting down, first among them the fact that I need to know my maps prior to a game so I know my viable approaches. Another such rule of thumb is that impassable terrain is your best friend vs a Steam Tank. Although I`ve just had 3 games with the new Dragonlord-list, I feel I`ve learned a lot very quickly. Hopefully I`ll continue to do so.

Despite being short I hope you enjoyed the report and its learning points. Please add your comments, should you have any :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:54 pm 
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I know it's a hypothetical and I know it's not a meta you play in (and you've said your list approach may not work outside of this) - but if hills are TLoS, do you think an army like yours could have pushed against this list?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:03 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I know it's a hypothetical and I know it's not a meta you play in (and you've said your list approach may not work outside of this) - but if hills are TLoS, do you think an army like yours could have pushed against this list?


Unless there are 2 pieces that, like these hills, block LoS, then no. You could get lucky, grab first turn and go all-out push. It might work out, screen monsters with Eagles etc, but I think most of the time you will lose and lose big.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:07 pm 
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Quote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604

20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875

Army Total = 2372

I've played 10 or so games with 3++ PG's (PG + high AM). So far I feel that 20 PG's are too few. I've needed to rely too much on static combat resolution and here a few extra bodies make wonders. So far my minimum are 22 but I feel 24-25 is closer to something optimal. I've found that I often fight battles in a formation 5 wide rather than maximizing attacks against MI, MC and monsters. All of which I have a hard time to wound (especially those 1+ and 2+ MC and the T6 monsters). By having the more bodies I can go 6 or 7 wide.
24 allows me to take 5 casualties in a battle before I loose bonus for 2nd rank. I do not know how your opponents treat the PG's but since magic is more or less useless against the bus my PG's take around 5 casualties before the battle begins (less if WbW are off) and here the extra bodies are even more important. 5 casualties leaves you with a 5 man front and any casualty will reduce the static CR.
I like the choice with Beast for the mage. What I'm really lacking from the PG are the strength however my opponent is not in doubt what to dispel so it's rare that it goes of at the critical time.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:16 pm 
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@Dragon fire - interesting musings! How is the rest of your list designed? I agree that 20 is a bare minimum. I can up them to 21 with spare points but beyond that it`s really hard.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:46 pm 
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I've tried various configurations. One with SM unit on foot. Very bad synergy and no movement. So skipped that one after one game.
Mostly I've run a SH unit with either one or two characters (ETC environment). Noble or Noble + Prince, the latter works best but it is also most influenced by bad generalship. If the prince was not in the bus he was on foot in the PG unit. I really find WbW to be critical, as this is the only way that the PG's can follow the bus. Otherwise you will have to slow the advance of the bus to not make one of the two units an easy target for combo charges (at least ine certain match-ups).
Recently I found myself in a situation where my PG's (20 man big) was stranded 20" behind the bus (who were eating skullcrushers). Unfortunately this left the PG with a direct fight against a 14 Warrios of Chaos. The PG's won the first round of combat, but lost the second and ran away after failing a Ld8 or Ld9 check with the prince (BSB was in the Bus). So my learning was the the two units should be rather close (bus need to be able support PG in certain match ups) as the PG's are not consistent enough with their damage output. On the other hand they are very consistent with the number of casualties taken.

I face a lot of DE (my best friend plays DE), and often the HE unit left standing is the PG's. Not even the WE powerhouse does he let near the PG's as their damage output against low T enemies is very big, but the damage intake is so low (3++!!). The bus has also been developed like you have done to deal with the peg lists. I face a list with 4 peg's; 1 dreadlord and 3 Masters. The DE list is So-so, I get some points but loose almost every unit except the bus and PG unit. On the other hand I've taken his SS, with darkshards and RBT's but none his DR, warlocks or peg master/lords. WoC in general seems to be a good match for the lists (except regen Trolls where I lost badly (I have no flaming attacks)), skaven is so-so. It's so hard to get any significant points when you cannot fly past the hordes of slaves... I think those are the enemies I've met with PG + bus.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:59 pm 
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In my experience from Indian Summer the clue with the PG is to let them have the central position, with the bus wheeling around. This limits the difference in movement and forces an enemy to expose its flank to PG if they want to counter an aggressive bus. Note that in all my games save for DoC and DW (which call for unconventional play), I went for PG centrally deployed with cav on the flank. I also feel that Hand of Glory would be an easy way to boost PG as people often fear WBW more.

It`s a pity I don`t get to play the list anymore for the time being, but at the moment I`m just enjoying the Star Dragon so much more :D I do however believe that the key to making Bus + infantry work is to get the Frostheart in there to create a more flexible push (the Frostheart threat arc is huge).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:02 pm 
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I agree with Dragon fire, you need those PG big and wide. 3x8 means the Mages are better protected due to a wider frontage potentially preventing or minimizing b2b contact and the enemy eating 23 S4 AP instead of 14 S4 AP attacks if deployed 5-wide sure helps a lot with the combat result. Consistently 3++ PG don't worry about being steadfast much because they don't tend to die in droves like all the other infantry in WHFB (even Ironbreakers are nothing compared to 3++ PG in terms of durability), so they better go wide and pump out lots of those Martial Prowess enhanced attacks.

Without changing much (One less SH in that bus isn't the end of the world),

Quote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

17 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 421
5 Reavers, Bows, Champ = 95 (I like this better than the bows&spears config for 95pts Reavers as the BS5 Harbinger is really good at sniping Charmed Shields & Waywatchers/Shades)
5 Reavers, Bows = 85
Core = 601

22 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 405 (Deploy them 8 wide in 3 ranks with the spellcasters in the corners)
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 905

Army Total = 2399


If you think you can make do without the Eagle, you can MAXIMIZE those PG's,

Quote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604

25 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 450 (9 wide in 3 ranks: the cheap & cheerful "pseudo-horde" made possible by Martial Prowess)
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Special & rare = 900

Army Total = 2397


Good luck, I believe this kind of HE list has a lot of potential, especially under the ETC comp! PG blocks with the Razor Standard which can consistently manage to get that Shield of Saphery up is one of the most powerful things in WHFB. That Archmage configuration is tough as nails but still needs careful handling to survive. The Archmage's defensive gear is best suited to survive a lower number of high quality attacks coming from the likes of fighting characters so it might sometimes be better to challenge that Scar-Vet in that SaurusWarrior/TG block rather than eating lots of S4 spear-Saurus attacks for example. If he declines with the Scarvet he loses his fighting potential due to "Booo! Hiss!" so that's a win-win scenario for you!

P.S.

How are you planning to deal with armies with lots of regen threats? You have Fiery Convocation which can be effective against big troll blocks (one of those S4 hits gotta wound, right) in stripping regen off before boosted soul quench-ing & bolt thrower-ing them to death but T5 Nurgle stuff in smaller numbers in a unit and Abombs are gonna be trouble if the only flaming thing you have is FC. I know Beasts is ACE with the PG but you might want to consider taking Fire or Light on the scroll caddy.


Last edited by Lecai on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:06 pm 
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It could be that I should try with a Frosty. It will definitely help vs. DE... Btw posted my list back in time viewtopic.php?f=67&t=65054
Perhaps I will try in the near future.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Dragon fire wrote:
I've tried various configurations. One with SM unit on foot. Very bad synergy and no movement. So skipped that one after one game.
Mostly I've run a SH unit with either one or two characters (ETC environment). Noble or Noble + Prince, the latter works best but it is also most influenced by bad generalship. If the prince was not in the bus he was on foot in the PG unit. I really find WbW to be critical, as this is the only way that the PG's can follow the bus. Otherwise you will have to slow the advance of the bus to not make one of the two units an easy target for combo charges (at least ine certain match-ups).
Recently I found myself in a situation where my PG's (20 man big) was stranded 20" behind the bus (who were eating skullcrushers). Unfortunately this left the PG with a direct fight against a 14 Warrios of Chaos. The PG's won the first round of combat, but lost the second and ran away after failing a Ld8 or Ld9 check with the prince (BSB was in the Bus). So my learning was the the two units should be rather close (bus need to be able support PG in certain match ups) as the PG's are not consistent enough with their damage output. On the other hand they are very consistent with the number of casualties taken.

I face a lot of DE (my best friend plays DE), and often the HE unit left standing is the PG's. Not even the WE powerhouse does he let near the PG's as their damage output against low T enemies is very big, but the damage intake is so low (3++!!). The bus has also been developed like you have done to deal with the peg lists. I face a list with 4 peg's; 1 dreadlord and 3 Masters. The DE list is So-so, I get some points but loose almost every unit except the bus and PG unit. On the other hand I've taken his SS, with darkshards and RBT's but none his DR, warlocks or peg master/lords. WoC in general seems to be a good match for the lists (except regen Trolls where I lost badly (I have no flaming attacks)), skaven is so-so. It's so hard to get any significant points when you cannot fly past the hordes of slaves... I think those are the enemies I've met with PG + bus.


Would crown of command fit on PG in a 3++ and helmbus list? That way even if prince+BSB are in the helms you're at least testing on stubborn 9, which aint shabby. Could go on a myrwyrm noble, sceptre lv2 (assuming scroll on lv4) or on the lv4 himslef if he's either 2nd rank or you feel confident with 4++ and high or fencers+5++ and high.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:34 pm 
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@Lecai - That`s a brilliant re-write! I didn`t consider shuffling core to free just a few points but I do believe those +2 PG can be well invested points and -1SH frankly speaking isn`t going to matter all that much. Sending PG wide was something I never considered before, but given this new configuration where I`m not hiding something away in the 2nd rank, it makes perfect sense in some matchups. Space is at a premium however and when combo-charging this is a fact I frequently feel very well. Also, 5-wide is very easy to manoevre.

Lots of regen? Seems overrated :D I`m really short on flaming threats but I have yet to really miss it. Beasts of Nurgle are a pain beyond belief, but their ward is so strong regardless that it`s not that big of a difference.

@Dragon fire - Thanks for the list! Looks very similar to what I took last weekend, with the main differences being character setup and ofcourse Loremaster vs Archmage.

@Ferny - CoC is always useful in the sense that you can just put a unit in a position and say "try and shift me!". With that said, it takes a lot of points that could otherwise go into more offensive power :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:36 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Ferny wrote:
I know it's a hypothetical and I know it's not a meta you play in (and you've said your list approach may not work outside of this) - but if hills are TLoS, do you think an army like yours could have pushed against this list?


Unless there are 2 pieces that, like these hills, block LoS, then no. You could get lucky, grab first turn and go all-out push. It might work out, screen monsters with Eagles etc, but I think most of the time you will lose and lose big.


I think, in a bid to play more quickly, for my next tourney I'll take a MonsterLord+Pheonix+bus(probably BotWD BSB and 2xhigh)+champreaversx2 and either 2nd rare pheonix or 4xRBTs, with a few points spare for whatever, probably shadow warriors. I'm assuming TLoS and I don't want to play cornerhammer...so maybe eagle cover is a good idea. I enjoy reading your blog but its a shame your wins might not be so easily replicable in my setting (skill differential aside!). Still, it looks fun so I think I'll do it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:44 pm 
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If you want to try it I`d say go for it! I would however advice you to at least start playtesting with Crown of Command instead of a fighty Noble (put the crown on the 2nd mage) as it`s more forgiving. If you don`t like the way it plays it`s easy to switch for the Ogre Blade: it`s harder to go from fighty equipment to learn how to play a stubborn bus (2+ armour save and 2++ vs magical damage means that the bus can just block so ridiculously many things!). Also, I`d advice you to consider 3x Lore of Light mages (2x L2, 1x L1) with a BOTWD BSB all mounted in the bus. This build DOES require Crown of Command I believe, but S6 Banishment, Net of Amyntok and Pha`s Protection are really, really good uncomped when you need to protect the Dragon. Would you like me to draft these options for you or would you rather try yourself first? :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:58 pm 
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I think this could be a better Heroes configuration for your Dragon list:

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon armour, Shield, Lance = 178
Noble on Barded Steed, Potion of Strength, Luckstone, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, Lance = 131
Mage L2 on Steed, Scroll, Ironcurse Icon = 160
Mage L2 on Steed = 130

Total = 599

This way, you have a completely 6++ Ward character wall on the front to stack SoS on and the second Noble is tougher with the Luckstone. Most importantly, you can fit the Ironcurse Icon in without losing the Dragon Armour on your BSB which is important to him for the extra protection. The Potion of Strength and Lance combo is very flexible, it's not as good for VERY long term grinding as the Ogre Blade but charging with the same S6 and to keep fighting with S7 next turn is also a p. good deal. Being able to choose to charge with S9 against a very tough target is a really nice option to have as well. You do lose the ethereal busting capability on your bus though...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Good point. Will consider that setup as I can definitely see the value in Potion of Strength. I`m not sure the ICI is essential though: do you truly need it in this setup? What war machines would target the bus over the monsters/support? I assume there are situations where the important targets are hidden and it`s only a 5 point item...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Hi Curu - I've posted a draft list here - please feel free to comment :):
www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=884434#p884434

I'm intrigued by light but I'll play with high first - feels more natural a synergy to me.

Also, I'm damned if I can figure out how you squeeze a second noble into the unit?!!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:16 pm 
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It`s a big compromise but it can be done. It`s important to remember that the bus doesn`t hit hard: it preserves points well. In lots of matchups it can indeed be used as a blocker, but don`t imagine it can hit an enemy combat unit (like 7 demis) in the face and win, despite being worth north of 1000vp without the bonuses.

Other lists to consider if your main goal is to play fast include cavstar and double-cav lists.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:42 pm 
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Cavstar being what exactly? Prince+BSB BOTWD+ogre noble+Lv(death?)?

Double cav being helmbus plus DPs? Like what Mal (used to?) run?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:54 pm 
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Well I have a ran a couple of versions myself and a lot of similar lists are taken to the ETC this year. Here`s Denmark`s version:

Cavstar example wrote:
High Elf Prince on elven steed: General, Itilmar barding, dragon armour, shield, dragonhelm, ironcurse icon, Giantblade, dawnstone, 290
Arcmage on elven steed: lvl4, lore of death, Crown of comand, Golden crown of Altrazar, Earthing rod, 310
Mage on elven steed: lvl 2, High magic, dispel scroll, khaines ring of fury, 180
Noble on elven steed: Battle standard bearer, Ithilmar barding, shield, heavy armour, World dragon banner, 166
Noble on elven steed: Heavy armour, Ithilmar barding, Ogre blade, enchanted shield, luckstone, 139
Noble on elven steed: spear, shield, Dragon armour, Ithilmar barding, The Other trikster shard, 114

18 silverhelms, full command group, shields 444
5 Elyrian Reavers, bow swap, 85
5 Elyrian reavers, 80

Frostheart phoenix, 240
3x Eagle Eye Bolt thrower, 3x 70
2x 5 Sisters of Avalon, 2x 70
Total: 2398


Dual-cav lists. This list and variants of it have seen some strong performances this year. I have zero experience with it however:
Dualcav list example wrote:
Lord
Prince:Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragon Helm, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour,
Shield/ 285
Arch Mage:Lv 4, High Magic, Crown of Command, Dispel Scroll, Steed/ 300
Hero
Noble, BSB:Khaine´s Ring of Fury, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Barded
Steed, Dragon Armour/ 170
Noble:Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour/ 140

Core
5 Silver Helms: Musician, Shields/ 125
5 Silver Helms:Musician, Shield/ 125
5 Silver Helms: Shields/ 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80
5 Ellyrian Reavers/ 80

Special
11 Dragon Princes: Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon/ 399

Rare
Frostheart Phoenix/ 240
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Bolt Thrower/ 70
Great Eagle/ 50
Total:2399


"Dual-cav" might not be the right word but usually I`ve seen this list with a single unit of Silver Helms (I can`t find the reference though). Dual-Silver Helms units are also common in this build.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:40 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
What war machines would target the bus over the monsters/support?


Sure, the cannon type WM's will almost always be targeting the monsters. Helblaster Volley Guns and Organ Guns OTOH are ineffective against the T7 Star Dragon but they can make mincemeat out of those Silver Helms with their S5 AP so there's that... Stone thrower type WM's might also want to thin down that big bus with their big round templates rather than taking an unlikely shot at scoring a direct hit on your dragon/phoenix. Thinning down the bus can be a tactically sound option for your opponent if he can do it quickly and effectively. Even RBT's might not want to try those inaccurate single shots on the monsters and go for volley-shooting or rank-piercing the Helmbus instead if he doesn't want that bus to stick around in combat long enough to provide CR and Stubborn for your dragon. Your Helmbus is big with 17 or 18 Helms but it can melt unbelievably quickly under S5 AP Helblaster/Organ Gun shots. 2+ to wound and you only get a 5+ armour save = lots of dead knights in a single turn of shooting.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Organ guns are runed. Always. I have yet to meet one who isn`t. The Dwarf meta might eventually rotate around to including a non-runed Organ Gun with a Master Engineer to deal with BOTWD-HE in particular, but I`m not holding my breath. Helblasters I never face. I literally never see them. Personally I think this is a sound decision on the part of the Empire players I face, as it is extremely hit-or-miss and I believe Empire can easily find a better way to spend those points: Between Cannons, boosted Banishment strength, another captasus, demigryphs and a steam tank, there are too many good choices that simply surpass the HBVG in my opinion. I do take your point though and the overall point is valid as Doom Divers, RBTs etc might decide to go for the bus. Catapults though never do this: back when I used to run Lions in the old book and our Dragon was T6 people still never targeted anything but the Dragon until it was dead, despite the rather big risk of scattering away (by comparison the Helms have a bigger footprint).

I will consider the build. For my next games I`ll ask myself how your suggested setup would work vs how my current one works :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:02 pm 
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I play almost exclusively on the ETC maps. Bad maps are one of the worst things that can happen in Warhammer and with a finite set of maps you always know roughly what you`re going to get: no planet bowling ball, no infinite woods, no rocks all over the place making artillery insanely good etc etc. Note: houses count as impassable terrain. Ruins are the things that have cylindrical shapes and impassable terrain looks like a big stone. Anyway, onto the maps:

Map 1
Image
There are 3 LoS-blocking pieces here and 3 woods. Cavalry approaching the North-East corner is iffy: either hug the table edge or move the long way around. However, flyers love the North-East corner: deploy opposite corner, use impassable, use house, late-game charge. For this reason, a gunline opponent will not choose the North-east corner. It`s almost as bad as to be an auto-loss. The North-West corner however has clear LoS in all directions but the lake makes it hard to reposition for a defender. It also forces an attacked to attack diagonally if the monsters want cover.

For non-gunline matches the forests need to be considered carefully: the cover-opportunities is great for the flyers but the cavalry needs to be careful. For gunline matches I want the North side: the central impassable piece and South-East hill makes it easy to advance in cover. If I get South, I expect my opponent to corner North-West. For non-gunline matches I also want North, but for different reasons: the bus can deploy centrally and go anywhere without fearing the woods too much, whereas the RBTs can be deployed on either flank and have a good threat arc.

Map 2
Image

3 LoS-blocking pieces and a central wall is good news for me. There is only one good corner for a gunline army, South-East. Anything else is terrible as an opponent can advance too close for comfort and/or there are terrain pieces messing with your defense. If I can choose I pick the South almost regardless of opponent: free reign for cavalry, good lines for RBTs, good cover for monsters.

Map 3
Image

This is a hard map to play because both sides has positions that are hard to attack: South-West and North-East both force you to go into a very open terrain. The good news is that cavalry don`t face tight terrain almost regardless of opponent here. Vs non-gunlines, the North is best because of the central hill: advancing to it with the monsters allow a huge tactical advantage: open terrain on either side for cavalry, good lines of fire for RBTs and a commanding position from which to attack.

Map 4
Image

3 LoS-blocking pieces, walls, ruins, lake, woods. Somewhat think with terrain, could be dangerous for cavalry. If I can choose sides here I usually prefer North: Impassable and hill to advance towards for cover and pretty squeezed space with poor LoS for an opponent.

Map 5
Image

Lots of open ground in the middle, hills aren`t blocking vital parts and on either side there are good corners for castling armies. Hard board for RBTs, chaff drops are important to get them positioned right. Gunlines here are a nightmare, unless an opponent chooses the wrong corner it`s pretty much impossible to push.

Map 6
Image

4 LoS-blocking pieces are great for monsters, central lake and woods are not good for cavalry. Very hard board to castle on: every single corner has a staging piece of terrain that is LoS-blocking. I`ve played this with Chaos Dwarfs and it`s very hard to get a decent defense mounted. The central lake means that flanking control is very important, which my army excels at. South side is the best for my army in most cases: the hill allows RBTs to dominate the field and there is plenty of cover to find.

Map 7
Image

Attacking North is easy towards the West Corner, hard towards the East corner and a centrally deployed army forces you into a bottleneck. South is good for me with RBTs on hill/central, cavalry next to woods and flyers where-ever (in cover vs gunlines of course).

Map 8
Image

I do believe this was the board I played my last game on, vs Strange. I won the roll-off, which is HUGE: I forced him to take North which leaves him with 2 shitty corners both blocked beyond belief. This is generally a good board for me with the central impassable piece (lesson to remember: a mobile army LOVES a central piece of terrain that is impassable because playing around it leaves slower armies struggle so hard to protect flanks etc), vs gunlines it is very hit or miss with the South being perfect for me, the North however is kind of hard.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:57 am 
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I wrote an article about my preferred style of play which I`ve coined "Powerplay". Give it a read here: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67064&p=884474#p884474

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Since I`m back to using Eagles I found it`s time to create a couple of models to go along with the army as my old ones haven`t exactly stood up to the test of time.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:53 pm 
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It's hard to tell exactly from the photos how it looks at the connection points/where the bird is coming from the base...but what you've done there is basically how I feel the Pheonix should have been done writ large! If you pull it off - and it's looking very promising - then you've nailed the concept!

Are those just left-over bits from your pheonix kit? With two heads on the frostbird, how come you've got one spare - do they come with three?

Looks like when I get back onto modelling I'll need:
1) flame wings to put onto a PG/annointed for a unit-filler or bad-ass foot annointed
2) flame wings to convert onto one of my 4 :shock: IoB griffons
3) 2x flame wings to build two frosthearts using the much nicer flame parts...which is a shame really, coz its looking like with two kits I could do 1 and 2 if I just build the frosties up as regular icebirds.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:59 pm 
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I only had a Frostie head left from the first box so I bought another. I figured I could use some spare parts from other models (e.g. IoB Griffon) to create this concept, so a new box would effectively give me 2/3 models: The Great Eagle that can also function as a flamespyre phoenix (just make another 50x50 base with an anointed) and a Frostheart from the remaining parts. I`m looking forward to paint it as I think it can turn out to be quite cool :) I did start the Dragon first however because it was based from before. Lots of greenstuff went into this project as well.

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