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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:26 am 
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2 reasons: The unit has a huge footprint so requires a lot of space. I was standing pretty much in base-to-base contact with an RBT and the Phoenix was nearby on my other rear corner. What`s more important however is that I wanted to get further up the field to strengthen my flanking options T2, which worked out really well. My opponent also asked about this post-game but I think the only way to manage a reform towards the center is going 3 or 2 wide and I think that would hurt me more than it would benefit me ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:10 pm 
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Had a rematch vs DoC today. BR shortly, hopefully tomorrow. In the meantime, a big tournament in October is hosted nearby with 2k no comp. I'm considering my options. Draft 1 is as follows:

Prince Barded Steed Giant Blade Dawnstone Enchanted Shield Heavy Armour Potion of Foolhardiness - 268
Prince Barded Steed Star Lance Dragonhelm Heavy Armour Shield The Other Trickster's Shard - 231
Lords = 499

Noble BSB Barded Steed Lance Heavy Armour Shield Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Steed Dispel Scroll Ironcurse Icon - 160
Mage L2 Steed Crown of Command - 165
Heroes = 497

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 524

2x Frostheart Phoenix = 480

Army total = 2000

Input and C&C very welcomed :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:04 am 
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Quote:
Prince Barded Steed Giant Blade Dawnstone Enchanted Shield Heavy Armour Potion of Foolhardiness - 268
Prince Barded Steed Star Lance Dragonhelm Heavy Armour Shield The Other Trickster's Shard - 231
Lords = 499

Noble BSB Barded Steed Lance Heavy Armour Shield Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Steed Dispel Scroll Ironcurse Icon - 160
Mage L2 Steed Crown of Command - 165
Heroes = 497

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers = 80
Core = 524

2x Frostheart Phoenix = 480

Army total = 2000

Input and C&C very welcomed :)


You haven't told us anything about the tournament. We don't know if it's battleline only or includes a wider range of game types such as the Watchtower and Blood or Glory. We don't know if it's a friendly tournament or one where people try to bring the most game- breaking combos possible. Everything I've said below may be irreverent, or it may not be because I don't know anything about the tournament apart from the point level.

It's not something I'd take, because it seems very one dimensional and seems prone to very good and very bad matchups. You have 2 nasty monsters, one unit of fast cav and a giant bus which is a very good target for Dwellers, Acquiescence, Cacophonic Choir or Ash Storm and which depends on the charge to deal damage.

In some games I'd expect you to table your opponents. In other games where massed redirectors, DE Flying Circus, Stubborn/Unbreakable Characters, Magic, non-magical Warmachines or other nasty things (like Throgg with 17 trolls or Teclis) turn up, I'd expect you do have great trouble.

Lastly:

Quote:
Funderer på HE til NM. Følgende ser ut til å være en mulig fremgangsmåte, tungt inspirert av cavbussen jeg har kjørt på 2400 med gode resultater:


Any chance of a translation?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:51 am 
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5x Battleline. Special characters are allowed but are worth +200vp if killed. It will be game-breaking combos, it`s the Norwegian Championship so I expect people to bring the best lists they can.

Quote:
It's not something I'd take, because it seems very one dimensional and seems prone to very good and very bad matchups. You have 2 nasty monsters, one unit of fast cav and a giant bus which is a very good target for Dwellers, Acquiescence, Cacophonic Choir or Ash Storm and which depends on the charge to deal damage.


All true. I tried creating more all-round lists based on Teclis and Allarielle for example, but I couldn`t do it without having glaring weaknesses against the typical meta. I expect WoC, DoC, OK and SK to be there and they can put out some truly nasty builds @2k which I believe the lists above will struggle with. I also expect dual-stank Empire and multiple Empire armies. I`m open to radically different ideas though so please post your list thoughts :)

Currently I`m unsure about the lore. Was thinking of High originally but as you highlight very well, the usual suspects are well matched with Death here. 6D6 Purple sun is nasty and it provides an answer for the inevitable blocks of Ironguts, Beasts of Nurgle etc.

As for the Norwegian part I forgot to exclude it and your reply came before my edit, apparantly. It simply states that I`m considering this list for NM (Norwegian Championship), based on my recent cavbus @2400 points which I have been happy with so far.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Matchup Analysis (anticipated problems and solutions).

WOC

Concerns: Lots of small fast Units/Characters with good statlines (Daemon Prince, Special Characters (Throgg), Disklords, Chimera, Chariots, Trolls and Skullcrushers). Will get points by engaging in CC or using Death Magic.

Counters: BoTWD, Lots of High S attacks, OTS, Flaming Attacks, Book, Scroll.

DOC

Concerns: Wall of Nurgle, Beasts of Nurgle, Skillcannons.

Counters: BoTWD, Flaming Attacks, OTS.

Skaven

Concerns: Dread 13th, Wither (very bad for Teclis), Slaves, Bell, Plague Furnace, Hell Pit Abomination, Doomwheel, Warp Lightning Cannon, Engineer Toys.

Counters: High Volume of Hits, no units on foot, Flaming Attacks, BoTWD, high S attacks, Book, Scroll.

Ogres

Concerns: Gutstar, Mournfangs, Ironblaster, Redirectors, Maneaters (Pistols and Poison), Leadbelchers.

Counters: High S attacks, Multiple Wounds, OTS (for Gutstar), Speed, Flaming Attacks (Trollguts).

Empire

Concerns: Demis, Dual Steam Tanks, Dwellers/Banishment, Cannons.

Counters: High S attacks, BoTWD, no good Dwellers targets, Book, Scroll.

Other High Elves

Concerns: BoTWD, Teclis, Everqueen, 2+ Frosthearts, Phoenix Guard, RBTs, Other Cav busses.

Counters: BoTWD, non-magical attacks, no good Dwellers targets, Frosthearts (to counter ASF), Book, Scroll.

Dark Elves

Concerns: Hellbrone, Shadow Magic, Witch Elves with buffs, Executioners, Peg Characters, Warlocks, Dark Riders, RBTs.

Counters: Magic Missiles, BoTWD (for Hellbrone), Frosthearts, lots of attacks (to kill Witch Elves as quickly as possible and to do max damage to executioners before they strike), Armour, Scroll, Book, High S attacks (to kill Peg Characters), OTS.


So, I put together all those points, the fact that you play fast, attacking lists and had asked for something radical. The result was this:

2000pt High Elves 8th Ed Roster

Lords (320pts):
Archmage (320pts): Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Beasts, Book of Hoeth, Khaine's Ring of Fury.

Heroes (499pts):
Mage (120pts): Elven Steed, Lore of Beasts, Dispel Scroll .
Noble (172pts): Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, Elven Steed with Barding.
Noble (112pts): Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Elven Steed with Barding, (BRB) The Other Trickster's Shard.
Noble (95pts): Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Lance, Enchanted Shield.

Core (509pts):
5 Ellyrian Reavers (85pts): Bows.
5 Ellyrian Reavers (95pts): Bows, Musician.
13 Silver Helms (329pts): FC, Shields.

Special (204pts):
6 Dragon Princes of Caledor (204pts): Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame.

Rare (465pts):
Flamespyre Phoenix (225pts).
Frostheart Phoenix (240pts).

Which really isn't very different from the list you posted above. Which I proceeded to critique for being one dimensional :oops: #-o :lol: .

The idea with the list above is to pile all the characters into the Dragon Princes or Silver Helms, depending on the tactical situation. If you see Trolls or Wall of Nurgle, you put them all in the Dragon Princes for flaming attacks. Otherwise, they go in the Silver Helms (who have more bodies). Then get into combat and apply dual Wildform, Savage Beast and Pelt.

On the Charge under Boasted Savage Beast, there really isn't anything the Nobles can't kill. They flat out ignore armour (and Regen if in the Dragon Princes), have ASF rerolls against I7 or less, force ward save rerolls and wound just about anything on a 2+. A Steam Tank takes an average of 13 wounds (18 attacks, 16 hits, 13.333 wounds). Similar things will happen to a unit of Skullcrushers, Mounfangs or Demis and that doesn't even consider the effect of the Silver Helms or Dragon Princes.

The Bus is less likely to die to Dwellers or be neutered by Acquiescence, Cacophonic Choir or Ash Storm because you have a Scroll, Level 4 with the Book and the ability to cast Savage Beast or Wildform to increase your S.

The List has Soul Quench and the possibility of Curse or Amber Spear for a ranged presence and to draw the enemy scroll. Wake of Flame from the Flamespyre can kill redirectors and wear down Steadfast blocks of things like Skaven Slaves.
Please note that the list above is a draft and is due for some severe change. The scroll is probably going to the Lv4 so that the Lv2 can be dropped for better defensive kit on the nobles.

This is already a really long post (for me anyway) and I've written all I'm going to tonight. I'll add to it/answer questions tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:56 pm 
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Rematch! Identical lists as last time, this will be a short one.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Daemons of Chaos (ETC comp) .::.

Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield = 166
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 112
Fire Mage Steed L2, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 180

Heroes = 599

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2395

His list:
Great Unclean One, 2x Greater Gift, L4 Nurgle
Herald of Tzeentch, Lore of Tzeentch

2x10 Horrors
Plaguebearerblock with +1M

5 Furies, Nurgle
5 Hounds, Ambush
4 Beasts
1 Beast
1 Beast

1 Skillcannon
2x3 Flies

The following pictures show the deployment and turns 1 through 3.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

So the following took place: I wanted to isolate his Plaguebearers and kill the chaff. With him splitting up, getting it all is impossible. Trying to force the cannon into a bad position is impossible: unlike the Ogre Ironblaster it`s not a large target so he can provide it with hard cover vs RBTs. I marched Phoenix and bus up aggressively, but Phoenix was placed to cover middle vs flies instead of cornering the Plaguebearers. Bad move on my part as the flies won`t do anything than rush for RBTs anyhow. He responded by placing a single beast to block my bus and the Plaguebearers advanced out of their corner.

T2 I charge the solo beast with the Frostheart and the bus reforms to move away from it. I counted on the Beast holding one round vs the Frostie, so I wouldn`t have to face a cannonball in his turn. Magic however saw a lucky Spirit Leech kill the Skillcannon outright and I then proceeded to IF Purple Sun. I misfired, scattering to nowhere, AND lost a level on the mage for no more purple fun. My opponent then revealed a big mistake as his 4 beasts could charge my Phoenix after his solo beast had performed a corner-to-corner combat reform.

TL;DR without Purple Sun I couldn`t threaten him a lot. Phoenix went down to massive amounts of poison before I could intervene. I did get the Beasts in the end while shooting took out one unit of flies before they died. Winds of Magic and Tzeentch missiles killed my chaff. In the final picture, my bus has just beaten the 4 Beasts and reformed 3-wide to have a better chance at catching the other unit of flies. He managed to place them to force an 8+ roll for my charge, which I managed. Due to a mistake on his part, I managed to grab the Plaguebearers in the end but I had lost everything but the bus and its contents. It was a 12-8 win to the High Elves, but this matchup should see me win bigger.

// Evaluation //
Splitting up the DoC army is a very good strategy. It makes it extremely hard to threaten all key points, let alone catch them. My main mistake was T1 angle of the Phoenix allowing the Plaguebearers to go out of their corner and T2 attacking the solo beast without considering a possible counter-charge by the multiple beasts.

I am wondering if RBTs do so little in this matchup that it might be worth it deploying them purely for defensive reasons, i.e. do my best to have them survive all game. With Hounds, this is incredibly hard though.

As always, C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:58 pm 
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Did your Phoenix snap off his base?? :?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:47 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Trying to force the cannon into a bad position is impossible: unlike the Ogre Ironblaster it`s not a large target so he can provide it with hard cover vs RBTs.

Unless ETC rules change the BRB rules, Large Targets only cannot get cover from "obstacles" (ie: fences and walls). They still receive cover from other units (pg. 72 BRB). Don't think that has much to do with this particular game, but might prove useful when blocking shots fired at your phoenix, or some such.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:49 am 
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@Jimmy - The Phoenix is not glued to its base, for transportation purposes. Given its pose, this has proven to be very practical ingame as well.

@NexS - Under Simple Line of Sight, Large Targets only get cover from interfering Large Targets (and woods etc ofc).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:35 pm 
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I'm not sure I can find where you're talking about, curu

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:25 am 
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The rulebook uses a line of sight system which is usually referred to as "True Line of Sight" (TLoS). An alternative to this, used among others the ETC, is Simple Line of Sight (SLoS). Under this system, nothing is based on what the model can "virtually see", instead everything is categorized. I think this is advantageous to the hobbying aspects of the game, but I digress. Anyway, the point is that when you play with SLoS, Large Targets only get cover from interfering Large Targets.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The rulebook uses a line of sight system which is usually referred to as "True Line of Sight" (TLoS). An alternative to this, used among others the ETC, is Simple Line of Sight (SLoS). Under this system, nothing is based on what the model can "virtually see", instead everything is categorized. I think this is advantageous to the hobbying aspects of the game, but I digress. Anyway, the point is that when you play with SLoS, Large Targets only get cover from interfering Large Targets.

Oh! I had no idea that even existed. I imagine it makes the game much quicker to get through

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:10 pm 
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It most certainly does, in my experience. The rules are plain and simple with very little (no) room for discussion, furthermore I like that they implicitly discourage modelling for advantage ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:01 pm 
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Another short report, this time against Dwarfs. Strange and myself wanted to see how this matchup is, with an anticipated -1/-2 for DW, conversively +1/+2 for me.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Dwarfs (ETC comp) .::.

Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield = 166
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 112
Fire Mage Steed L2, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 180

Heroes = 599

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2395

His list:
T10 W5 1+ lord
BSB Area of Effect Stubborn Thane
Runesmith Destroyer Scroll
Runesmith Scroll + Balance

Longbeards block MR3
Quarrelers

2 GTs, accurate
2 Cannons
^ all with forging
1 Gyrocopter

5 Rangers
Big unit of Irondrakes with slowness-banner

I got Caress, Spirit Leech, D&D and Purple Fun. Fire got Firecloak and Fireball.

The following pictures show the deployment and turns 1 through 5.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

So I got T1 and marched everything up. Magic saw me rob his BSB of 1W, but the second snipe came up IF, he saved the single wound caused and I lost Caress. He then proceeded to shoot the Phoenix out of the sky and moved Lord from Longbeards => Irondrakes, with BSB remaining. His main weakness here is that moving the BSB out of the Longbeards means he's on 1W with no MR. I then simply crashed into the Longbeards since he would lose stubborn entirely then and the slaughter was good. He broke, I caught him. I then ended up being stuck in the woods for a LOT of charges/overruns so in the end I lose quite a few Helms along with wounds on pretty much every character.

T3 I got an opening: ever since I killed his Longbeards he had moved the last Runesmith to block my bus from reforming (his artillery park killed 3/4 RBTs in his T2 so the runesmith wasn't really threatened by my shooting). Anyway this turn I got a Purple Sun through his defense (both scrolls were drawn, the destroyer scroll failed to kill PS the turn before) and killed the poor smith along with some Irondrakes. From here on out, I managed to charge everything and eventually forced his Lord to flee as well. 20-0 to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

The matchup was easier than I thought because of one simple thing: the M3 Lord simply can't protect everything. Add to this, I can usually force a LOT of dangerous spells for him: 2 snipes is very hard to stop without spending a scroll and D&D largely renders his stubborn useless at worst, shaky at best. The bus' huge footprint worked against me a lot with me having to take a billion dangerous terrain tests and him being able to block me easily. Note to self: charging out and starting overruns near the flank can quickly leave me stranded.

Overall though, I'd rate the matchup a +2 for High Elves. Easier than I thought. Perhaps other configurations can make it harder, but the combination of the Lord having to protect multiple blocks and the magic being so strong makes it extremely hard for Dwarfs to do much here.

As always, C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:33 pm 
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A famous victory! The dwarf list looked ok, though not taking Gyrocopters is something of a handicap. They are perhaps the only 1+ in the book, I think, the way they can influence the movement phase is incredibly important to an army as slow as the Dwarfs. Did the Irondrakes cause any trouble at all? The slowness rune can be a pain sometimes (I guess the moment they ate the Sun it stopped being an issue, though...).

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Oh, my bad - he did have one gyro. It ate 5 Reavers and panicked the Shadow Warriors. Will edit it in!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:16 pm 
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No useful comments on the battle, but going back to your list...

I agree that TOTS is (almost?) essential...but I hate having the noble tax for it. I also get that you're loathe to lose grinding potential from the ogre blade...so how does this look as an alternative:

drop the TOTS noble, an RBT, the shadow warrior champ and maybe some tweaking for points.

Replace them with 5xDragon Princes, inc champ with ogre blade
And switch the kit on the combat noble to starlance, TOTS, 5pts to taste.

Thoughts?

Also, how do you rate the fire wizard - unusual choice.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:18 pm 
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Sorry, been on vacation for a while. Dragon Princes unfortunately don't even nearly fit the bill here. The point of the bus is to strike hard as a single unit and preserve points as well as possible, getting everything under BOTWD. I will be considering loadout options, but for the time being I will stick to this setup.

I have a tournament upcoming next weekend which should be really interesting :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:46 am 
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Had an interesting game yesterday, will hopefully get another tomorrow or Thursday. 5-game tournament this upcoming weekend as well. Lots of things to do, not enough time to do all I want, but I`ll try my best so watch this space for lots of interesting stuff in the coming weeks ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:01 pm 
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Short report from a civil war I played yesterday:

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs High Elves (ETC comp) .::.

Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield = 166
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 112
Fire Mage Steed L2, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 180

Heroes = 599

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2395

His list:

Asbjørn Willersrud, High Elves
Prince on Star Dragon: general, shield, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The other Trickster's
Shard, 598
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: bsb, lance, heavy armour, shield, Banner of the World Dragon, 172
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed: lance, heavy armour, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane gem, Crown of
Command, 140
Mage on Elven Steed: lvl 2, High, Dispel Scroll, 155
Mage on Elven Steed: lvl 2, High, 130

18 Silver Helms: FCG, shield, 444
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Champion, bow swaps, 2x 95

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
Great Eagle: 50
Frostheart Phoenix: 240
Total: 2399

Basically I think I should win this big, at worst it`s roughly a draw. It takes a lot for me to lose this matchup, in my opinion. Magic started out poorly: I rolled double aspect, caress and fate. Since snipes are pretty much useless in this matchup, I was really looking to have either D&D or soulblight along with PS. Oh well, can`t always have them all. I got Fireball and Flaming Sword as well. My opponent had Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds, Arcane Unforging and Fiery Convocation.

Deployment went well, with my RBTs well protected in a corner, the bus fairly centrally and with a dominating position.

Image

With +1, I went first.

:: Early Game ::

Image

Image

Image

Bus marched up hard and I landed a 30" IF Purple Sun. His Dragon passed its I test, the rest was contained. Frostie had to take the flank to deny his Reavers access to my RBTs. One was deployed too far ahead, allowing him cover and a likely T1 charge. He countered with boxing my bus in and IF Arcane Unforging on my Prince. He failed to roll the 2+ needed however. It was then that I decided to engage and hope for the best, with PS threatening him and his magic doing nothing to me, I was considering this to be the best approach.

:: Mid Game ::

Image

Image

What I had forgotten however was that he has Champions on his Reavers, so the 2 survivors charged my Frostie which was set up to help me out in the cluster**** that was the central fight. I was lucky to pass my break test and stay alive, but it would take a long time for me to bring everything to bear. In combat, we tore apart at eachother, BOTWD providing ridiculous amounts of protection on both sides (and TOTS being worth its weight in gold for the both of us). Magic saw my attempts at PS draw the scroll and being dispelled.

:: End Game ::

Image

My Phoenix was finally freed up, and I decided to send it into the Star Dragon, which proved to be a bad move. I should have targeted his bus, because his Phoenix was engaged with my bus I had ASL and he thus got re-rolls. Besides, -1S was a big deal in a grind such as this. I finally got through another PS, but I misfired and it scattered away from the Dragon. After this, my L4 died and things started getting really hairy, but a few Helms + Prince + BSB were alive at the end, preserving at least some points and making it a 7-13 loss whereas it could easily have been a lot worse.

// Evaluation //

The RBT deployment was in my opinion what cost me the game. Without having to commit the Phoenix here, I could`ve zoned his Phoenix a lot better while advancing my bus up. As it were, him boxing me in T2 without the Phoenix being able to help me out (and worse, not getting there T3 either because I forgot about the Champ) was what cost me so dearly: this is a perfect setup for him.

I played the match poorly, but it should be noted that things would`ve looked a lot different if the Sun had taken out his Dragon (and possibly the Phoenix, which I likely would`ve hit as well on the second cast where I rolled a misfire).

C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:48 pm 
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1. Why do you think you should win big in this match up? They're similar armies, with him having the mobility edge and you the magic edge, or not? What am I missing here? Is it just purple sun/death magic which you see as going big here - if so surely magical variability would make it, well, variable (as seen here).

2. You said something about your frosty having to protect your RBTs from reavers but I didn't follow this well. How would he protect against fast cav? And couldn't you shoot reavers with your RBTs anyway? And wouldn't it be better to sacrifice your RBTs if necessary but have big bird where you needed him from the get go?

3. You also mention a couple of times their champs - what odds does this make? Frosty isn't a character so it can't be for challenges? Was it the conga trick? Nice move if so - and presumably with 18" Ld10 he'd be reasonably confident on taking the break test too?

4. What went wrong for you to get boxed in like that? Why did you decide to charge the (stubborn, and warded) helms? As you say, it put you in a terrible position. I'm not immediately sure on the alternatives, but I think almost anything might have been better?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:32 pm 
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1. Fewer drops, better bus, way stronger magic. SD and Frostie fear the sun so much and soulblight + dnd are good as well. Fire is better than high for chaff war.

2. He vanguarded the Western Reavers into a conga in hard cover 17" away from my closest rbt. I blocked off their path with the frostheart. It would probably have been better to let the RBTs take their chances with lady luck and use the bird for zoning.

3. Conga. Charge + rear and I kill champ = LD7 break test. I was lucky to pass it.

4. Nothing and everything. Mostly the bird not zoning his, the Dragon + bus is ok. I could have moved less aggressively T1 but I want to pressure the Dragon asap. How would you have played this, given the deployment?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:06 pm 
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Thanks for the update.

1. Depending on whether you play mexican stand-off or close the distance quickly (as appears here - possibly a mistake?) there might not be much time for a chaff war with magic? And regarding Death, while unlikely, you missed most of the spells you wanted, right? So that was largely neutralised, as shown by continued prioritisation of sun, so far as I can tell from the brief report. Less drops gives you greater chance of T1, but so what - what do you do (or could you have done) with it to press the advantage? Stronger bus: granted, though to counter that the dragon isn't magical so he'll be laying down consistent high S attacks on your armoured unit, which seems at least like a fair trade. I don't know whether this might be a better match up for you if a) you'd got more Death spells or b) you'd avoided the trap, but as it was I don't think it's necessarily such a strong match-up?

2. OK - I see how you did it now. Still, 6 shots hitting on 4's (close range but cover) and wounding on 3's with no AS should be what, about 2 dead reavers? From that they might panic, and if not you have more RBTs to bear in on it...and if you thin them enough, you might even kill them in combat if they do succesfully charge your RBTs. I think your move here was a mistake.

3. I hadn't realised quite how good a champ is in reavers - I think I will consider experimenting. It's not unusual for me to have them in position to flank or even rear charge something (chaos chariots, I'm thinking of you) but they bleed CR as much as contribute...this is a nice trick to exploit! Also a reminder of how fragile our frosty is to CR, especially when it doesn't get a thunderstomp (or rolls badly on the D6).

4. I'm not sure how I'd have played it tbh, I don't have much XP against flying monsters. I think you played exactly into his hands and I think there must be better ways to do it...but I'm not the right person to come up with the actual helpful suggestions :roll: 8) . I'm just here to learn from the bat reps and from the discussion :).

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:27 pm 
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1+2. One hitting on 5s (hard cover), rest on 6s. I did kill 3, he passed panic. But yes, leaving them alone would probably have been better. The matchup improves significantly with soulblight and/or dnd, no doubt. I don't think he laid a trap to be honest, I just wanted to put pressure on the Dragon asap. What I could have done instead would be to march towards frostie, securing the flank while still having powerful spells AND keeping bus far away.

3. Frostie and CR are not friends at all. Newbie mistake though, hopefully to be remembered.

4. I agree it was probably a too aggressive move. Moving against the frostheart would probably have been my best bet ;)

Thanks a lot for the input, interesting musings!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Thanks for taking the time to post this one up. I think you were too aggressive in this one also. You have a big advantage at range with both magic and shooting and I think playing the way you did squandered this advantage. Your RBTs are highly effective v. his bus and it didn't seem like they made much of an impact (on anything?) this game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:08 pm 
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The RBTs this game: T1 they removed 3 Reavers and the Eagle. T2 I shot them all at the Phoenix (but his RBTs had removed 1), all failed to hit. After that it was just a chaff war, with lots of cover and thus, a small chance of doing anything useful. I ended the game with 2 alive, as did he. All my Reavers died, he had 1 model remaining, and I had my Shadow Warriors (!) around as well.

List change proposal: Ditch the Ring of Fury. It seems to be doing fairly little for what I pay for it. Consider this, by dropping it I get to upgrade the TOTS` dude`s Lance to a Star Lance AND give the BSB a Spear. This drastically increases my potential for damage output, and I find that I rarely get a lot out of the ring. True, it has been nice on a couple of occasions but the meta seems to be rotating towards less chaff and more things that are hard to take points from and besides, I have Fireball. I`ll at least try this out and if I find it to be lacking, I`ll switch back :)

New list draft then:

Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear = 168
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 136
Fire Mage Steed L2, Dispel Scroll = 155

Heroes = 600

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2396

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:51 pm 
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Another short report:

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Tomb Kings (ETC comp) .::.

Death Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear = 168
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 136
Fire Mage Steed L2, Dispel Scroll = 155

Heroes = 600

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2396

His list:

Liche High Priest: lvl4, Nehekara, Scepter of stability = 225
Liche High Priest: lvl4, Death, Dispel Scroll = 235

28 Archers: champ, musi = 188
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
10 Archers = 60
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70
5 Horse Archers = 70

3 Necro Knights: champ, musi = 215
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230
Warshinx: Fiery Roar = 230

Necrosphinx: 225
Hierotitant: 175
Casket of Souls: 135
Skullapult: 90

== 2698 ==

Another matchup I consider favourable for me. Having last game fresh in mind I`m hoping to play this somewhat more patient. He had a lot of drops so I deployed everything before he had committed anything vital. Regardless I was happy with the outcome:

Image

With +1, I went first.

:: Early Game ::

Image

Image

Image

Bus stays still and I pound him at a distance, a lucky snake eyes magic phase with Power Stone turns out to a super-long purple sun, killing 2 sphinxes off the bat (I needed 8+ for the sun to him them so he didn`t scroll it). Shooting clears the horse archers, but there`s a huge mistake which I haven`t realized until it`s too late.

:: Mid Game ::

Image

Image

Image

My RBT next to the bus is basically an accelerator for his Necrosphinx, allowing him to engage my bus and lock it down. Knights and remaining Warsphinx move up to support. The Necro is handled luckily enough because of an IF Soulblight, but I`m locked and it`s too late: the Warsphinx hits home and I lose my BSB, which truly is a disaster (and a mistake on my part to not perform a combat reform after the necrosphinx died).

:: End Game ::

Image

Despite passing an LD7 break test without re-rolls and ridding myself off the Warsphinx in the ensuing turn, I am not out of the woods yet. He gets a huge magic phase and starts with caress on my Archmage, which I have to let through. It`s then followed up by dangerous terrain on my bus, which I also have to let through. We`re then down to 5v5 dice (I lost my dice intended to dispel DnD on another IF last turn) and he chucks them all at Light of Death on a nearby RBT. Unless I can roll 9- on 3D6, it`ll die and cause a panic on 7- without re-rolls on the bus. I decide to try and stop it, since his catapult needs to hit my bus to cause a panic test if the spell is stopped (or the RBT needs to die to shooting), but I fail. RBT dies, I fail panic and the bus flees off the table.

The remaining couple of turns is just about clearing things up, and I`ve taken quite a big chunk of his points so despite only having 3 SWs alive at the end, it`s "just" a 3-17 loss for the High Elves

// Evaluation //

I was really lucky with the important rolls for the first 2 turns, and still I died. Some really bad mistakes on my part, the Repeater placement first among them. Allowing his Necro to perform such a move is nothing short of terribly bad. Secondly, not reforming the BSB out of harm`s way (despite the Warsphinx needing 8+ to hit home) sealed the deal. My opponent had a terrible start but he played a solid game and took a much deserved victory here.

Hopefully I`ll remember these crucial lessons when the tournament starts on Saturday!

C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:55 pm 
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Having spent some time musing over the list and final configurations etc, I`ve decided to make a rather small change: simply swapping Fire in favour of Shadow. Why? Well, the meta seems to have little of the board-controlling armies (Elves aside), and my list can`t really capitalize on the power of Flaming Sword of Rhuin. As such I believe Miasma is superior: it controls Empire, WoC, HE and DE very well, as well as having truly nasty synergy with Purple Sun. Furthermore, Enfeebling and Withering really synergize well with my list.

--

Death Archmage Level 4 on Elven Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282
Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear = 168
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm = 141
Noble on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster`s Shard = 136
Shadow Mage Level 2 on Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll = 155
Heroes = 600

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
5 Reavers, Bows (swap) = 85
Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 80
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 600

Army Total = 2396

Looking forward, I have a smallish uncomped 2400 points tournament in September, 2000 uncomped in October and 2400 points ETC team tournament in November. Lots of options to consider, lots of playtesting to do, not enough time...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:54 pm 
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I wasn't expecting that with the Tomb Kings. Interesting game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:56 pm 
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The list is strong and the player is very solid: he was the highest placing TK at my last tournament (and would`ve made top 5 most likely if not for an unfortunate Purple Sun reversing its path and hitting his Hierophant on a perfect 10" scatter) and he`s won best general with this list previously as well. In this game, I got severely outplayed so I feel the win was well deserved. The game also highlights a huge weakness of my list: Leadership bombs. Even with the BSB, LD7 from DnD can be more than dangerous enough to see lots of points just disappear.

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