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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:51 pm 
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WE game
1) The WE player would probably had been better off hiding his WR behind the hill and forest. As it were, you could easily target and kill them turn 1 for no loss. I think WR are suboptimal as RBT-hunters, or more like, the RBT is optimal for killing WR.
2) What did your frostheart do for the first half of the game? I se it move out on the right flank, but no explanation why.
3) Failing to move his second eagle toward where you pointed your bus probably sealed the fate of his bus. Was there a reason why he did it?
4) Solid play btw. Agree on the assessment, very hard on WE with all those heroes, shooting and magic missiles. But you did manage to capitalize on your strength.
5) Vs Ogres I do think your bus have a few tricks to play. Even vs Maw banner you can choose to target Maneaters and leadbelchers. If you can kill his shooting, that would make the gutstar a sitting duck. Or just smash the bus into the gutstar and kill everyone. Would like to see that matchup replayed with your new bus :-).

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Ogre game
1) Fair point. It's also possible to create no-landing zones with gnoblars and still shoot over them with leadbelchers. In that case, all in on the gutstar is the order of the day :).
2) I was thinking leadbelchers lost a few models to soul quench before charging in so would probably lose their steadfast during combat. Still, you have to get there through the hail of bullets.
3) OK
4) Ah, that explains it. Teaches me to actually read the report.
5) Maneaters were deployed 4+3. I guess you killed one before he could strike, that might take it down to five. Still, I feel you were lucky having the phoenix survive for long. Also, fear wouldn't have changed the number of poison hits.
6) and 7) I'm thinking that if he drops Maw he will ned crown, as you kill ironguts by magic and reduce his steadfast chances before combat start. Also, your bus should remove steadfast?
8 ) Agreed. The ogre deployment is very nasty. I think you did very well. Most people end up with one or more units off to the wrong side.

Summed up: well done, be lucky next time.

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 7:36 pm 
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WE:

1) WR offensively played means RBTs are busy and can`t shoot his Archers. I agree it`s likely a bad play though
2) Secured the WWs. It`s in the report.
3) He didn`t consider my reform I think. It was too far away.
4) True!
5) That´s what I did. I have to engage because of double IB though. By new bus, do you mean Coven of Light?

OK:

1) Yes, but how do you do it with regards to deployment order? This also forces Leadies at least 3-4" further back
2) Indeed, but situational and not something to count on.
5) Taking one down and getting up 4++ helped a lot. Probably lucky still.
6) Bus doesn`t remove steadfast. Leadies targeted it to great effect. It`s a relatively small unit.
8 ) Indeed!

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:00 am 
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Wow!
that dragon is marvelous! the big one too ;)
as always, great report,

regards

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:33 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
WE:
5) That´s what I did. I have to engage because of double IB though. By new bus, do you mean Coven of Light?


Correct me if I'm wrong. You have played ogres with mixed infantry, and with star dragon. I would like to see a cavbus vs shooty ogres game.

You have shown repeatedly that even if the bus is blocked it should be possible to charge out the prince and start hacking apart an ogre unit. Shadow warriors as one-round hard cover for the bus will probably be important here. Not a good matchup I think, mostly because of all the chaff, but probably better than the other two.

Curu Olannon wrote:

OK:

1) Yes, but how do you do it with regards to deployment order? This also forces Leadies at least 3-4" further back

Standard deployment with ogres is
3*ST, 1*small ogres, 3* gnoblars. Then big units in whichever corner suits best. You have a challenge here, true.
Leadies don't mind staying 3-4" back as long as they're with their back rank within 30" of a target. With your flyers, they can shoot over gnoblars too. With other units, the gnoblars can march, or reform out of the way.



Dragon Coven:
Like the concept. Would like to see it work. Worried that you might be stretching yourself thin. The core combat units can't fight really heavy stuff, leaving you only two flying monsters as you CC component. Lore of Light work great with the flyers. Hopefully this will allow you more time to manouvre instead of just charging straight in.

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:34 am 
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@anorexia - Thanks! Hoping to get some army pictures soon :)

@rusty - That can probably be arranged ;) I don`t think the chaff is that big of a problem for me, why would it be? It`s hard to get them where you need, doubly so vs M9 cavalry. Add to that, there are 4 rbts and multiple magic missiles around. As for the matchup, I think I`d rate it 0 or +1 for HE. Playtesting needed. As for Leadbelchers, the problem is that they need to wheel to shoot at flyers and bus, making 3-4" a much bigger deal than it seems since wheeling is very ineffective at closing a distance.

Dragon coven - list is identical to other bus-SD variants, the only exception is that a noble is swapped for a mage and the Helms are split up. Do you feel that +1 Noble and +5 Helms in the big unit makes that big of a difference? Maybe they do, but I think a bigger question is whether Light can be a good lore here (which we know that High Magic can be).

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:26 am 
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I would like to hear your thoughts about high magic on level 4 in the bus list. I like the idea of having a backup mage with high and ring but I'm doubtful about level 4. Large units of trolls (warriors, orcs) are problematic to this army and ogres are tough match up as well I guess. Death on level 4 would "solve" the problem + it is a very solid lore overall.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:39 am 
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Interesting question. Death is very good, no doubt, and I`ve been considering it. For the team tournament however Death is 0-1 per team and we already have it reserved for Dark Elves, who can benefit more from it relative to other lores than the HE bus can.

High Magic is very flexible and helps in a lot of matchups. Vs anything with hordes and/or regen and/or deathstars, Fiery Convocation is a super powerful spell. Arcane Unforging is really good against anything with a powerful item (HE especially!), the spam of spells keeps a good ward save up for the unit and having 3 casts of soul quench is very, very powerful. Walk Between Worlds and Apotheosis round it out very nicely as both as extremely good with this list, whereas hand of glory is just a nice bonus and a useful spell to have because of Shield of Saphery.

The one build I struggle with (that I can think of), apart from Dwellers, is a Gutstar with Mawbanner. I think this list should be able to handle anything else, but I still need to find the right configuration for it. Perhaps I`ll end up changing my lore as well, but at the moment I am very happy with High Magic.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Thanks for writing up the report on the wood elf game. That said, your opponent grossly misplayed the match up and ETC comp is so brutally in your favor it's not even funny. I assume his sub-par core choices were based on comp restrictions? It's a terrible list IMO. For instance, few redundancies, small units with the useful arrows and taking only one of each arrow type.

I think your opponent is new to wood elves (i.e. did not play them in 6th edition), is this correct? From what I can tell of the pictures you posted, his mages were not in woods, his archers were static, the eagle is fluffing off doing very little and the wild riders pushed forward FAR too early. This in addition to allowing your prince to charge points to someone just getting to grips with how this unique army works.

If I were playing this game, assuming I had the freedom to make a passable army list, I would play much more defensively than your friend did. He is too spread out and too static. My suggestions would be as follows:

Dispel priorities given to magic missiles and convocation, ideally deploying 37" away from the bus T1. I would put the characters in the large unit of archers around 37" from the bus, most likely in the upper right corner from the HE point of view. Wild riders would deploy cautiously and vanguard to get into hard cover/out of LoS of the RBTs.

I assume you would push the bus forward and throw 6 dice at firey convocation or try and walk to get into MM range. This turn, I would dice walk and scroll convocation. I assume shooting losses would be minimal since your RBTs are at -2 to -4 of archers/sisters/wild riders. If you played the bus cautiously, this is a different conversation, but the scroll would still be in the picture. I assume frosty stays with the bus?

Turn one shows up and the wood elves are relatively unscathed and the bus is either out of range (>40") and therefore not much of a threat, or within range (~20"). Movement is dependent upon HE positioning and losses the previous turn, but I would try and force the bus to charge through dangerous terrain and eliminate any over-run potentials while preserving as many flee options as I could. Given the relative distances, I'm not sure this is all possible, but these are the goals I'd try and achieve.

Magic is lackluster given the banner, but PoD on the sisters, word of pain on the bus, anraheir on the bus and doombolt on frosty would be my goals. In shooting, WW go for helms, archers shoot at either RBTs or frosty depending on how the HE movement shook out. I'd HoDA the bus (HoDA is not magical) and sister it too if PoD had gone off. If not, they'd go for the frosty. Shooting the bus should do the following:

WW - 20*(2/3)*(1/2)=20/3 or approximately 7.
HoDA - 10.5 shots*(2/3 hits)*(2/3 wounds)*(1/2 through armor)= 14/6 wounds, or around 2.
Sisters - 7 shots (2/3 hits)*(2/3 wounds)*(1/2 through armor)=28/18 wounds, call it 2 for poison.

A panic check later and 7 helms + characters remain. The bus' options are to charge (vs small archers hold, vs large archers flee), advance, stand still or withdraw. I assume you would either advance or charge. The purpose of holding would be to minimize the magical damage coming in, while fleeing is pretty self-evident. Again, I'd hope to create a situation in which your RBTs have very few good shots.

Over all, I'd try and play more sideways than your opponent did. I'm sure I'm missing nuances, but I'm not surprised that you steamrolled that wood elf list/player.

Thanks again for the report, I'd like to hear your thoughts on deep/horizontal deployment and defensive use of the wild riders.

If that's what ETC comp does to the WE, I will have lost what little remaining faith I have in the AR.com.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 7:09 pm 
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The ETC comp is pretty heavy on Wood Elves. Hopefully they can find a better solution before the time runs out, but regardless this kind of build is incredibly hard for them. This game, my opponent tried a very different approach from last time. Part of the reason why his approach failed so badly this time was that he couldn`t put the pressure on me to force me into combat. Instead, I could just keep decimating him at a distance. This misinterpretation of how my list plays lead to him using units to stop me as if I had Skullcrushers sort of, so that when I reformed and moved 9" instead I would keep getting away from him.

As for deploying 37" away, this is easier said than done. See the following diagram:

Image

The black box show the silver helms deployed centrally, as far forward as possible. The red circle indicates the central element, with the green arrows showing the distance across the table to the enemy`s deployment zone, and the extreme corner. The first of these is 24" long (1), which means there is 36" to the table edge. Implicitly, this means that anything deployed directly opposite the Silver Helms is a target I can cast Soul Quench on T1. The distance to the corner is a bit harder to work out, but relatively trivial. Essentially it`s a square, 36x36 inches. The distance is thus the square root of (36^2)*2, which is roughly 50". Of course, the wheel steals a bit but the unit is also a few inches wide, not to mention the fact that a deployed unit takes up at least a few inches. What this mean is that it`s practically impossible to place a single unit more than ~48" away from the bus, and it`s also practically impossible to place an entire army more than 36" away from the bus, which means that soul quench T1 is always an option. Scouts do have some flexibility, but RBT create a huge no-go zone and arrow 2 shows the longest distance possible to the bus on table.

Quote:
Dispel priorities given to magic missiles and convocation, ideally deploying 37" away from the bus T1. I would put the characters in the large unit of archers around 37" from the bus, most likely in the upper right corner from the HE point of view. Wild riders would deploy cautiously and vanguard to get into hard cover/out of LoS of the RBTs.


This means that if you get first turn, those Archers won`t get to shoot anything. Waywatchers also have to move into soul quench range to target the bus.

Quote:
I assume you would push the bus forward and throw 6 dice at firey convocation or try and walk to get into MM range. This turn, I would dice walk and scroll convocation.


First of all, you can`t 6 dice with ETC restrictions. Second and more importantly though, this is not my strategy. We got an 8v5 phase I believe. I start with 1D6 soul quench from fury ring, what do you do now? Dispel with 1D6? That`s risky. Dispel with 2? Let`s assume you do (and my opponent did). Then comes 2D6 Soul Quench from L4, high casting value. Do you throw all dice at it? Try with only 3? Regardless, after this there`s another 2D6 cast from the L2. At this point, you have to be very lucky to have dispelled everything and have dice left to dispel this. Assuming you dispel it, the power stone 5D6 Fiery Convocation ends the phase. Scroll? That`s what my opponent did, which means that from T2 onwards the High Elf player can usually force one important spell through (which is what I did). Walk Between Worlds is also great.

Quote:
Magic is lackluster given the banner, but PoD on the sisters, word of pain on the bus, anraheir on the bus and doombolt on frosty would be my goals.


PoD isn`t that big of a deal. Word of Pain, same story. Anraheir even, as long as it`s not T1. As this report shows, I rarely need to move more than 9" anyway once I`ve gotten into that sweet spot from where I can throw magic missiles. Doombolt has short range, getting within range of it means the frosty has a likely charge on you. It`s very hard to get a lot out of your magic in this matchup.

HoDA is most certainly magical so it`s quite ineffective. Sisters have very short range, this game he tried to utilize them but ended up getting solo-charged by the Prince for hos trouble.

Quote:
WW - 20*(2/3)*(1/2)=20/3 or approximately 7.
HoDA - 10.5 shots*(2/3 hits)*(2/3 wounds)*(1/2 through armor)= 14/6 wounds, or around 2.
Sisters - 7 shots (2/3 hits)*(2/3 wounds)*(1/2 through armor)=28/18 wounds, call it 2 for poison.


Yep, in a perfect world scenario the shooting hurts. But in practice it is extremely hard to get all of this through. Waywatchers usually experience at least -2 to hit, either long + move, long + soft or move + soft. With an even tighter deploy, this only gets worse. A 10-large unit of skirmishers has a surprisingly large footprint.

The matchup is most certainly hard for WE and I agree that a more mobile, yet tight approach is likely superior to spreading out this much. Defensively Wild Riders would help in limiting my options as well of course, but then again that would free up both the Frostheart and the RBT to focus on Archers at an earlier stage.

Thanks a lot for the detailed feedback, I hope my elaboration here show you why I consider this matchup to be an auto-win ;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Today, I had arranged for a rematch against the list I faced in my final game at SM. I was trying out the Star Coven and was eager to see if mobile flyers would be a good solution to this problem.

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Dark Elves (ETC comp) .::.

My list:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Sceptre of Stability - 145
Mage L1 Light on Steed, Ring of Fury - 120
Heroes/Characters: 592/1190

14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 352
8 Silver Helms, Musician, Shields = 194
5 Reavers, Champion = 90
Core: 636

1 Great Eagle = 50
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Special & Rare: 570

Army Total: 2396

His list:
Dreadlord, Dark steed, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, shield, Giant blade, Dawnstone, The
other tricksters shard - 277
Supreme Sorceress, lvl 4, Death, Ring of hotek, Dispel scroll - 295
Master, Pegasus, BSB, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, lance, Charmed shield, Talisman of
preservation - 211
Master, Pegasus, seadragon cloak, shield, lance, Armour of destiny - 184
Master, Pegasus, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, shield, lance, Cloak of twilight - 188

5 Dark Riders, X-bows, shields - 100
10 Dark Riders, X-bows, shields - 200
25 Darkshards, FC, Banner of eternal flame - 340

5 Harpies - 75

Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
5Warlocks - 125
5Warlocks - 125
Totalt: 2400

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

The table we got was ok, with a building (counting as impassable by ETC) in the center of my deployment and some ruins to hide 2 RBTs in, giving me a head start. Vs Death I was counting on needing my BOTWD for the mages. I played a refused flank and the idea was to get control of that part before sweeping middle and cleaning up mid-lategame.

Deployment was fine and he ended up with a unit of Warlocks severely exposed. I wasn`t happy with my small Helms, but everything else was where I wanted it to be. Magic saw me roll up Pha`s, Speed, Banishment, Net, Timewarp. He got Spirit Leech, Caress, D&D, Purple Sun.

Image

Image

My characters stayed with the bus all game. With +1, I grabbed first turn.

// HE T1 //

I moved up the bus to within 24" of the Warlocks and the Darkshards. The problem with the Warlocks is that going too close means he can suicide charge and maybe get a mage or two in the process, which is disastrous. Everything else shuffled West to support this plan, apart from the Helms who went East to cover the approach a bit better.

Magic saw a big phase land Net on his Darkshards (which he let through, to my surprise) and Banishment which killed all Warlocks. Panic was passed by both RBTs. Good start! In shooting, I single-bolted the cloak guy but missed, the others tried to hurt his RBT but couldn`t manage anything.

Image

Image

// DE T1 //

Net prevented him from moving. Fast Cav on the East moved up. Magic saw Warlocks IF Doombolt on small Helms, a few died but panic passed. Shooting removed golden crown.

Image

Image

// HE T2 //

Bus moves up along with flyers, Reavers near the table edge. Small Helms are lost but get out of WL frontarc, at least.

Magic saw boosted Phas go up, rest was contained. Shooting saw RBTs single-bolt WL flank and killed 3, panic passed. One RBT single-bolted the 4++ hero, dealing 2W.

Image

Image

// DE T2 //

L4 moves out to fire off PS. Flyers swap so that the BSB takes the place of the wounded Master, roughly. Dreadlord moves up to support. Fastcav clears the East. Magic sees me dispel soulblight on the SD and scroll Purple Sun.

Image

Image

// HE T3 //

Dreadlord is 19" away from the Dragon, I declare the charge and he elects to flee. Phoenix charges Harpies, they fail terror and flee. Helms reform to cast missiles on the L4, taking care to place the ring-mage within 18".

Magic is 8v5. I start off with 2D6 Ring of Fury which he dispels on 2D6. I then cast Speed of Light on the Dragon as a precaution, if I don`t get the mage (his scroll is intact), the Dragon should be able to handle PS. He lets it go and I 4D6 IF Banishment, his mage barely goes down after 4 hits (Hotek nearly saved her). Miscast is S6 on all mages, no effect thank you BOTWD.

Shooting kills nothing of significance.

Image

Image

// DE T3 //

He`s sweeping into my rear, Lord + Harpies rally. Magic is IF doombolt on an RBT, but he fails to kill it. Shooting puts 3W on the Dragon.

Image

Image

// HE T4 //

Eagle on 1W (RBTs targeting it) tries to charge a war machine. Reavers move up behind. Flyers move up, bus moves up. I figure if he charges the bus, I challenge-hold him and counter with the monsters.

Magic sees Harpies disappear and his Dreadlord panics, BSB out of range. Shooting sees the Warlock panic (only 1 left), 2 single bolts bounce off the Cloak.

In combat, the Eagle dies.

Image

Image

// DE T4 //

Darkshards (ab)use the cover of the hill to be invisible for my bus. Dreadlord rallies. BSB charges Reavers. Rear is cleaned up. Magic is non-existant because of the fleeing warlock. Shooting does next to nothing.

Image

Image

// HE T5 //

Dragon moves up to flame Darkshards with Frostie providing cover. Bus charges Dreadlord who flees, I fail to catch. Magic sees me try Banishment but it`s low and he saves it. The Dreadlord is proving very hard to do anything about. I also get Net on his big Darkshards.

In shooting the Breath Weapon does 10W, but he passes panic.

Image

// DE T5 //

Everything moves towards the Dragon. Dreadlord rallies. Darkshards reform to face Dragon. Magic is void, shooting sees 1W on the Prince, cover from Phoenix proving solid.

Image

In my T6 the SD + Frostheart charge the Dreadlord, Dragon is 19" away. Only one can land because his flyer blocking the other and my Dragon fails its distance so the Frostheart takes him on. I move up to within 12" of everything and cast IF boosted Pha`s Protection. The rest of my phase is drained. In combat neither the Frostie nor the Dreadlord manage anything and in his T6 the Dragon still lives, Pha`s preventing 2 single bolts from hitting.

With that, the game is over and neither side has killed a lot. It`s a close game and counting it up, the DE are ahead but only slightly, so a 10-10 draw.

// Evaluation //

As I feared, the bus plays awkward with 3 mages. You can`t really do anything with them without being afraid of losing a mage or two, especially against DE. While I probably played too cautiously with it (which cost me dearly as I never got to rid myself of his RBTs in the corner), it just isn`t as solid as it ought to be.

Getting the small Helms centrally was a huge mistake. I should have had them in the corner near my own, this would`ve been perfect in this game. As it were, they died without achieving anything.

Light has a lot of semi-hard to cast spells (from an L2 perspective) relative to High. While I got good spells and great mileage out of them, I really do miss the flexibility and low-cast values of high magic. This, coupled with the bus not being able to play offensively due to the threat of losing the mages too easily, means I won`t be playing this configuration again. It`s a shame that we don`t get to keep fast cav on characters mounted on non-barded steeds, as fast cav light mages with a big ER bunker could really be interesting to play.

I originally thought the matchup was slightly in my favour, but I believe it is a neutral matchup having played it now. That is miles better than what my SM list has against it, it simply loses every single time. I should have won this game, but I was unable to create a situation where I could capitalize on my T1 advantage. In the end, I couldn`t even get his RBT: due to moving the bus so cautiously T1, I had to choose between engaging RBTs and try to kill his L4. I chose the latter, but the best play would probably be to push hard T1 which would`ve allowed charge on 1 RBT with overrun into the other T2, free reforming and killing the sorceress anyway T3.

The monsters also did very little in this game. His shooting, magic and flyers are all dangerous to me once I lose a few wounds. I probably could`ve set it up better, or even spent these 2 to get the RBTs and thus gain a safe haven (his Eastern RBTs were very, very missplaced and couldn`t do much all game).

I talked to a friend who`s played this matchup a couple of times with High Magic. Essentially, pushing too hard allows his flyers to surround the bus and attack with impunity. Though it is solid, it`s not that strong, so this game inevitably boils down to who can gain local board control and capitalize on situations that arise (e.g. a single-bolt killing a flying hero). In this game, I played tactically better early game (with a strategic mistake of not pushing harder), but he played a better tactical game in the later turns. As such, given the neutral matchup, a tie is a result I`m happy with here: after all I`ve never played this configuration before and the DE list is very, very strong.

Next game will be with high magic supporting the Dragon. I have yet to decide whether to go for Spears or the large bus. I have a feeling that one game with the Spears is something I should try out at least.

An earlier build saw me play the Griffon. To make a long story short, the Griffon in itself is a decent usage of points I believe. The problem is that it comes at a great cost: you only get one mage along with it (unless you`re willing to make it your BSB, which is suicide). The difference between 1 L2 and 2 L2s is just insane. This is the main reason why I unfortunately don`t think the Griffon can fit this list.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Curu, would you mind expanding on a couple of things which I found a bit hard to follow please?

1. What rules are you playing for LoS/blocking? Can you see over hills or are they infinitely high? What about buildings? And do your large targets get cover from non-large targets or only obstacles?

2. Could you give a run down of what your opponents RBTs elected to shoot at each turn (and why you suppose they did). If you were them, what would you have prioritised? I didn't follow that clearly at all but it looked like either his target priority was way off or the RBTs simply proved once again that they're a fickle beast.

And an observation - ballsy move to not take out the RBTs on screen left. While you could argue that I get fixated on these targets and you had much better battle-field awareness, they seem both ripe for the taking and perhaps quite important to prevent them doing continued rounds of harm (they appear to have actually contributed little). Or were you confident that they couldn't dint your important units (dragon/pheonix and bus)? I know you recognise that you should have pushed harder T1 and you're musing on whether, once that mistake was made, you should have pushed on - interested on what you conclude.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:28 am 
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Having read your opinion on the griffon not quite cutting it I was curious as to where you stand on an Eagle Noble as know you used one almost religiously in your 7th ed star dragon lists. Without running any math I'm also pretty sure we can get 2 level 2's in there with him.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:44 am 
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@Ferny - I`ll try my best! First of all, Simple Line of Sight is, as the name suggests, a very easy system to use. As opposed to TLoS where modelling and terrain matters a great deal and you almost always end up arguing, with SLoS everything has fixed heights and cover rules.

Simple Line of Sight wrote:
Terrain pieces are divided into ones that:
- Block LoS: Hills, Buildings and impassable terrain.
- Don't block LoS: all other terrain.

Unit is considered to be in hard cover when:
- majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by an interfering unit or a LoS blocking terrain, as described on page 41 BRB
- unit is garrisoning a Building, as described on page 127 BRB
- unit is defending an obstacle, as described on page 122 BRB
- majority of unit's footprint is in Ruins

Unit is considered to be in soft cover when:
- your models shoot through or into woods, as described on page 119 BRB

Models shooting from hills or buildings don't get the hard cover penalty for shooting through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Units with majority of its footprint on hill do not receive hard cover for being shot at through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Large Targets can't claim cover for obstacles, ruins and interfering units (unless interfering unit is also a large target)


So a unit on a hill cannot see a target behind another hill or building.

So, onto the RBTs: T1 they targeted Dragon (both) with multibolts, removing Golden Crown. The Eastern ones both targeted Phoenix, both missed. T2 they targeted Star Dragon with single bolts, no effect (Eastern ones didn`t get to shoot anymore throughout the game, apart from T6 when they targeted Dragon in hard cover and failed to hit). T3 a single bolt on Dragon took 3W, the other targeted Eagle for 2W I believe. T4 again, no effect. T5, everything missed I think. I might have had Pha`s up at this point as well, not sure.

Not taking out the RBTs on the West was probably what cost me the win. I was too obsessed with denying the middle field to his flyers by means of covering it in SD/Frostheart front arcs, but T2 I should`ve simply turned them towards RBT instead, charging both T3 and establishing my control in that part of the board. Not getting them at all was more of a mistake than a ballsy move, the Dragon could easily have died to their shooting. Not getting them was a combination of 3 mistakes: not using the Eagle and Reavers more aggressively, not moving the bus up properly T1 and not turning the flyers toward them T2. All of this would`ve resulted in a better position for me than what I ended up with.

@Sackree - A naked L2 is 120 points. On a horse, it`s 130. The scroll is mandatory, so we`re looking at 285 thus far. Then comes the BOTWD BSB at 172, for a total of 457. A naked Eagle Noble is 120, which leaves 23 points for equipment for him and the mages, and that`s not even giving the mages horses. In the last book, we didn`t have core helms nor the Banner, so the entire dynamic was different. Besides, as my last tournament with that list showed, by the end of the book the meta had changed so much that my setup was quite bad. When the VC book just came out and there was still a lot of infantry around, the SM + WL config worked ok, but with the increase of tough and mobile stuff the list just didn`t cut it. Also, the equipment we had back then (dawnstone + helm of fortune) allowed for fairly effective Nobles with true ASF GW. Thus, the Eagle Noble suffers from the same problem as the Griffon, there isn`t room for 2 mages and a BOTWD BSB. It`s a shame, because despite our poor options I think a Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield configuration Eagle could run very well with the rest of the list.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:12 am 
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Okidoky so it`s time for me to jump the big-bus-high-magic bandwagon as well. Yesterday`s game showed two things: Star Council doesn`t work (not with this configuration at least) because by putting the mages in the bus, they are super-vulnerable to so many things. While I probably could`ve played more aggressively, throughout the game I had to beware of dual-charges on the bus (the Dreadlord can easily eat 2 mages in one phase while a flyer kills the champ in a challenge), it`s just a disastrous proposition. With a second Noble there instead along with High Magic, suicide-charging is a lot less lucrative because you are not shutting down my magic immediately and you face possible counter-charges from the monsters.

Perhaps the Star Coven can work in a list sort of mimicing the DE one I played yesterday: i.e. lots of Archers in core, RBTs and the mages on foot. The awkward problem here is getting both Archers for shooting/bunker and Silver Helms for BSB. The BSB could be on foot as well, but this puts some serious constraints on how the list can play. Since I`m looking for an aggressive list, I`m not going to try out this approach (not for now, anyway) but I do believe it could be an interesting idea. You could even take it further and ditch the Frostheart for Sisters of Avelorn, creating a true bowline with the Star Dragon as a strong counter-pusher.

So, bandwagon-time. While I`ve had very few games recently with the Dragon, I believe it`s all about quality over quantity and one single game can tell you a lot about how your list plays. Essentially, game 1 taught me that the Star Dragon relies on magical support. I consider 2x L2 mandatory. The question then is whether 2 or 3 mages is the way to go. 3 proved to be one too many, because you cannot run them in a secondary unit and be safe: their mobility is too small. I really do believe this would`ve been viable though if the mages (like WE and DE) had been fast cav on steeds, which would`ve allowed for an ER-bunker (which I believe could work very well with this list). Thus, we`re looking at 2 mages. To protect these in the bus (BSB with BOTWD on steed is also mandatory for this type of list), a second Noble is also called for. With all these things set in stone, there`s not a whole lot left to choose. 600 points in lords, 600 heroes, 600 core and RBTs + Frostheart = 520. The choice boils down to an Eagle and slightly more core or Shadow Warriors, both of which I believe have their merits.

Anyway, enough rambling. Let`s take a look at the new list draft:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Noble on Barded Steed: Dragon Armour, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Ironcurse Icon = 116
Mage L2 High on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 High on Steed, Ring of Fury - 155
Heroes/Characters: 598/1196

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, Champion = 90
5 Reavers, Champion = 90
Core: 624

1 Great Eagle = 50
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Special & Rare: 570

Army Total: 2390

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:59 pm 
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Thanks for the breakdown. Why were the eastern ones silent after that - were they just poorly positioned given the terrain? Did they serve any practical benefit in forcing your deployment/movement (i.e. board control) or were they basically wasted in this game?

Curu Olannon wrote:
You could even take it further and ditch the Frostheart for Sisters of Avelorn, creating a true bowline with the Star Dragon as a strong counter-pusher.


I think this could only work in a SLOS environment - any other and he just has TARGET painted all over him in dragon foot tall letters! I know that's the setting you operate in but I think that idea is just too out there for TLoS.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:12 pm 
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No problem! Did you find all your questions addressed significantly?

The Eastern RBT were too far away. He deployed them badly, in my opinion. Splitting them 2+2 like that inherently makes it very hard to get the threat projection you`d want, if your opponent weighs to one flank.

As for TLoS, if anything when you decide to take the dragon in the first place I think it`s a good option, considering it will be further away than if you go for an aggressive list. Again, there`s also creative modelling ;)

...so suddenly I had this idea that I have to try out before ditching the Star Coven completely. While it is a shame that the mages don`t get fast cav while on steeds, this can be mitigated somewhat by bringing 2 units of fast cav. I can`t believe I haven`t thought of this before. Long story short, you replicate what DE do with their DRs and flyers: you put all mages in one unit, move the other (with fast cav rule), move the mages in. Then you start moving the unit which the mages started in. The entire problem with the small Helms` unit was not their inability to shelter the mages, but rather their inability to provide the needed flexibility.

As such I`ll be looking to try at least one more game with Light mages before jumping on the band wagon, setup as below:

Quote:
Prince on Star Dragon: Star Lance, Dragonhelm, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield = 598

Noble BSB on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, Lance, Shield, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Dispel Scroll - 155
Mage L2 Light on Steed, Sceptre of Stability - 145
Mage L1 Light on Steed, Ring of Fury - 120
Heroes/Characters: 592/1190

14 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 352
8 Reavers, Champion, bows = 162
8 Reavers, Champion, bows = 162
Core: 676

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Special & Rare: 520

Army Total: 2386

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
No problem! Did you find all your questions addressed significantly?

The Eastern RBT were too far away. He deployed them badly, in my opinion. Splitting them 2+2 like that inherently makes it very hard to get the threat projection you`d want, if your opponent weighs to one flank.


With the addition of the above I did, thanks. It backs up my believe that RBTs are unreliable. They might be useful or necessary, but they are unreliable (high variance). Why was the eagle targetted? Why not constantly target whichever of the stardragon/pheonix is the more appropriate target (not sure which to target prioritise - both a are threats, both are hard to kill). In theory there should be other options available for the eagle, though in practice I don't know what in this game.

Quote:
As for TLoS, if anything when you decide to take the dragon in the first place I think it`s a good option, considering it will be further away than if you go for an aggressive list. Again, there`s also creative modelling ;)


I don't like modelling to gain an advantage, even in a daft rules-setting. Dragons aren't too bad bearing in mind that wings (and I think tails) don't count? At least we've got a small profile in one direction - buildings for example should still provide TLoS blocks. I disagree though - plenty of things have the range and if you're not advancing into them then they have the time too. I don't have the experience to back this up but it seems reasonable on first principles.

I think your reaver mages might be vulnerable? It wouldn't take that much concentrated fire to make the unit unhelpfully small, and they offer less armoured protection than the knightbus. I think shooty dark elves for example would just take them easily (not sure how they'd handle the rest of the list, not having played dragons really) - I think this is doubly the case because everything else is a tough nut to crack.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:39 pm 
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This is turning into quite an interesting little discussion :D

Ok so RBTs unreliable. Most definitely. He targeted the Eagle because he thought he could kill it but rolled poorly. It`s pretty bad if the Eagle gets to attack the RBT, but I messed this up as well with my positioning. In this game, his deployment really, really messed him up, which is why I should have won. This is also why he didn`t have any other answers for the Eagle ;)

As for the mages - good point indeed! On paper, they are super-weak! In-game however, they have vanguard, M18 with free reforms all over the place (remember the Rules Question explanation I gave for fast cav? Their range is incredible!) and the Helmbus + monsters for cover. Take a look at the DE-report for a second and imagine the following: One unit of Reavers deploy instead of the small Helms. Other deploy where Reavers were. Then both Vanguard back towards my own lines, behind the tower/frostheart. T1, they both speed 18" to the west, hiding behind the bus, the Frostheart and the SD. Not only is his entire unit of Darkshards, all Dark Riders and 2 RBTs not even incapable of firing upon me (!!), the other 2 RBTs now have hard cover AND long range.

This all sounds good and well, but it`s not that easy in action. Dark Riders are super mobile as well, magic missiles are a huge problem and I can`t always create this favourable positions for them. Do note that if MMs are my biggest concern, jumping BSB out of Helms as well is also, of course, an option :D Furthermore, moving the mages into the bus is always an option, and deploying them there from the beginning is also certainly something that will throw most opponents off guard (as I assume that pretty much noone has ever seen a double ER mage bunker before!). I just have to remember that the bus plays very differently with the mages in it than without.

I do believe however that all-in-all, the list has what it takes to make this at least worthy of a shot. While Light lacks the flexibility of Arcane Unforging, Walk Between Worlds and Apotheosis, Banishment is insanely powerful, Pha`s Protection boosted @12+ is among the most ridiculous spells in Warhammer and Speed of Light + Timewarp are cheap relative to what they do with the Dragon.

Apart from my preference for novel approaches based on the fact that I value original lists, having a unique list gives you an upper hand in lots of games where your opponent simply does not immediately understand how your list plays and thus makes mistakes already before T1 begins! Both the VC and DoC opponents @SM did this, which gave me a big advantage on them (which unfortunately I wasn`t able to fully press home in the case of DoC), despite the list being sub-optimal.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I do believe however that all-in-all, the list has what it takes to make this at least worthy of a shot. While Light lacks the flexibility of Arcane Unforging, Walk Between Worlds and Apotheosis, Banishment is insanely powerful, Pha`s Protection boosted @12+ is among the most ridiculous spells in Warhammer and Speed of Light + Timewarp are cheap relative to what they do with the Dragon.


Give it a whirl. My prediction is that it'll be a headache and a half to keep all three cavalry units where you need them for the various roles they will serve. I'm sure with skill it's doable but it's certainly not a build I'd want to try.

RE: taking people on the back-foot...if you can get it to work that's great, but if it's just a poor-man's DE/WE tactic then I think people will catch on pretty quick and you'll lose the advantage of their mistakes and have to rely on the list's own strength again, at which point I think, while it might not struggle, it will make your brain bleed and you'll curse when you miss a step somewhere. (Certainly I've been going through those stages with MSU learning, and this seems similarly convoluted).

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Yeah well as you know from reading my reports I drop something as soon as I`m convinced it can`t work, so at worst this list only sees a single game. In the DE-game however I was painfully aware of how much better the SH would be if only they had fastcav, so for now I really want to give it a try ^^ I`m hoping for at least one SD game this week (next game is cavstar again, for which I have a few musings as well which need to be posted - so much to do, so little time!) so will seek out an interesting matchup. As for DE and WE, in my experience they don`t jump their casters around too much, it`s mostly the fighters that play this game to get into position. Playing evasively at a distance is an entirely different game.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:23 am 
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So, list musing time again! The Cavstar: while I`ve been contemplating for a good long while what to do with the character setup, another solution to the problem hit me. What am I afraid of fighting? It pretty much boils down to big blocks of trolls/ogres/dwarfs/similarly tough opponents, possibly with characters. What are these things afraid of? Like all mortal men...

Death.

While I`ve really enjoyed the flexibility of high magic, I think Death can work even better with this list. As such I`ll be giving it a try and keeping the setup as it is for the next few games. I still have an L1 with high and ring for MMs and with the inclusion of an M9 death caster, even fate of bjuna becomes a force to be reckoned with.

Team tournament wise this forces Dark Reaper to try out another lore, and while inferior to Death we believe Shadow could possibly work. The question overall then is whether Shadow DE + Death HE is stronger than High Magic HE + Death DE. Interesting!

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:25 am 
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We will have to see. I believe Shadow to be inferior to Death for Dark Elves, but as you say, the overall strength team-wise might be greater. I will at least try it for a few games to see what happens.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:49 am 
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Late to the party, this might have been answered already :).

Curu Olannon wrote:

@rusty - That can probably be arranged ;) I don`t think the chaff is that big of a problem for me, why would it be? It`s hard to get them where you need, doubly so vs M9 cavalry. Add to that, there are 4 rbts and multiple magic missiles around. As for the matchup, I think I`d rate it 0 or +1 for HE. Playtesting needed. As for Leadbelchers, the problem is that they need to wheel to shoot at flyers and bus, making 3-4" a much bigger deal than it seems since wheeling is very ineffective at closing a distance.

Dragon coven - list is identical to other bus-SD variants, the only exception is that a noble is swapped for a mage and the Helms are split up. Do you feel that +1 Noble and +5 Helms in the big unit makes that big of a difference? Maybe they do, but I think a bigger question is whether Light can be a good lore here (which we know that High Magic can be).


Your list excels at chaff clearing. Versus ogres the problem is partly that gnoblars have 30 wounds. The other is that they might end up placed directly in front of the units you want to get to. So you have to chew through them. That's an ideal world mind. 10 to 20 gnoblars are more possible. Not your biggest problem, true.

Leadbelchers love their swift reform and 6" move and shoot. That will usually give them a few more inches compared to a wheel, particularly with a 4 wide unit. Nothing major, but must be taken into account if you plan to place your unit just outside of range.

Light I don't think are the ideal lore here. Go safe and boring with High ^^.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:45 am 
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@Dark Reaper - exactly. Death for example gives us a hard counter to an OK shootylist. The best we have thus far is mirror matchup and DE, neither of which are optimal. The question is basically what matchups get worse for DE with shadow? Withering being RiP and synergizing well with Warlocks is what I consider to be a possible saving grace.

@rusty - How would you rate the matchup? How would you rate it with Death on the L4? ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Oh I forgot: as for Light, I`m giving it at least one more try. See reasoning above with Ellyrian Reavers ;)

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Hi Curu,

I think your "mega-lance" approach to HE CavBus definitely has merit. ETC really limits the amount of powerful builds HE can take due to those unnecessary harsh restrictions so the big Helmbus serves as a panacea to get around that fact. Also, the dreaded 6-dice Dwellers Below which is the bane of all character-bus builds is nerfed to allow 2 chars a LoS save and you can't 6-dice it in ETC so that's a rather big plus for the Helmbus operating under ETC rules as well... I'm going to be attending a tournament using the ETC comp at our gaming club next month and I'm thinking of going for a roster utilizing the "big Helmbus" in some form. I've been thinking of taking a Helmbus plus a serious elite infantry block supported by long range RBT shooting and the obligatory chaff.

Here's the list I've been thinking of taking:

Quote:
Lords -%24,8 (596)

1x Archmage (The Lore of Beasts) - Level 4, Elven Steed, Book of Hoeth, Khaine's Ring of Fury = 320
1x Prince - Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield = 276

Heroes -%17,5 (421)

1x Noble - Barded Elven Steed, Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
1x Noble - Barded Elven Steed, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Heavy Armour = 139
1x Mage (The Lore of High Magic) - Dispel Scroll = 110

Core -%25,1 (601)

17x Silver Helms - Shields, Full Command = 421
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows, Harbinger = 95
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Bows = 85

Special -%18,8 (450)

25x Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard = 450

Rare -%13,8 (330)

1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower = 70
1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower = 70
1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower = 70
1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower = 70
1x Great Eagle = 50

Total = 2398


I think Beasts on the Lvl4 Archmage with the BoH is great both in the context of this list and under the harsh ETC restrictions for High Elves and magic in general. What I like the most about the Amber lore in this list is that it allows me to effectively buff both the Helmbus AND the Phoenix Guard block with Wildform and Savage Beasts if I can roll both spells which has a high statistical probability. The perfect spell loadout I'm hoping to get is: Wildform, Savage Beasts, Amber Spear and the Curse of Anraheir. Amber Spear, Curse, Soul Quench from Ring and a possible High Magic ranged spell from the scroll caddie makes for an effective ranged magic phase as well. Curse is great because it is both useful at range and in combat. Amber Spear is the true star amongst my ranged spells because just like Soul Quench, it's rather shorter range is mitigated by the fact that my Archmage is riding with the bus. The boosted version is very easy to cast with BoH and is extremely deadly to monsters, solo characters and warmachines alike.

Beasts spells:

Wyssan's Wildform: Wildform works amazingly well on the big Phoenix Guard regiment with the Razor Standard which I almost always deploy in 3 ranks of 9 for maximum killy-ness. The 24" range of Wildform ensures that I can buff the PG if the bus is a bit far from them. Wildform is also amazing on the Helmbus if they need it.

Savage Beasts of Horros: Savage Beasts is the only way to replicate the effects of Mindrazor with any reliability in terms of meeting the casting cost under ETC rules and it makes the bus super deadly. The boosted version is very reliable to cast on 5-dice thanks to the Book of Hoeth re-rolls. Even the single version s great if I'm poor on PD and trying to go for a trickle-phase. Planning on casting the non-boosted version on the Ogre Blade Noble in general because the 4 (or 5 on the charge from PoF) S7 attacks combined with 6 S9 attacks coming from the front rank is a pretty good deal to wreck some sh*t.

Pann's Impenetrable Pelt: I don't wish to roll for this spell but it is far from useless, cheap casting cost and T6 characters in the bus makes the whole unit a tough nut to crack.

Amber Spear: We all know how effective mobile cannons are and this spell gives me one. Never fails to draw the scroll earlier in the game. S10 D6 wounds and auto-hitting is serious business. Nobody can dare let me throw this on something even if they have a 4++ or 5++ Ward. Basic version is very easy to cast on 2 dice with BoH and the boosted version with 4 dice.

The Flock of Doom: Very good if I'm facing WE, DE or Lizzies who are vulnerable to even S2 magic missiles. The 2d6 and the super long range makes it very effective to take out warmachines as well, especially RBT's with only 2 wounds hanging out in the back. Very good spell VS Dark Elves. The S2 makes this a rather poor magic missile but it doesn't matter much when using it against Skinks with their T2. Good pick VS Lizardmen as well...

Curse of Anraheir: Wood Elves are lucky to get a caster unit with this spell. Slightly more expensive to cast than Iceshard but with a much longer range for the -1 to hit effect both in CC and shooting and lacks the -1 to LD part of Iceshard. This is already a good spell with this ability alone but with ETC ruling open terrain counting as "terrain", the secondary effect is really good as well. Best part of this spell is that it is functional both from range in the earlier turns and in combat in the later turns. -1 to be hit is huge for HE who are already hard to hit with their high Weapon Skill.

Transformation of Kadon: Can't even cast it because my Archmage is mounted. Insta-swap for Wildform.

The Lvl1 using High Magic is cheap and expendable after he burns his scroll. The ability to give his unit a 3++ Ward save with his single High Magic spell is a damn good deal for a scroll caddie! Sure, the Mage may die in close combat (not always though as I deploy this unit 9-wide and the Mage in the corner) but granting his unit a 3++ Ward even for one round makes the PG block even more formidable than they already are and a PG unit with 3++ can defeat any opponent including the dreaded Witch Elves unit with Razor Standard & Cauldron of Blood. A 3++ Ward is effing huge. As for preferred spells for this guy, a second Soul Quench would be nice if the matchup demands it but having a magic missile as my only spell means that I can't cast it on the charge for example to get a 3++, as MM's can't be cast in CC. Drain Magic's effect is very situational but it is a safe bet to utilize Shield of Saphery. I can't rely on getting any single spell with jus a Lvl 1 dude but I'm mostly wishing to get the cheapest to cast spells (5+ to cast); Hand of Glory and Apotheosis so that I can reliably 1-dice em' in a jiffy. Other spells are match-up dependent to consider taking on a lvl1 Mage and Fiery Convocation can't be reliably cast on 5 dice with only a +2 to cast. Anyway, I think he is good value for a scroll caddie and gives me some strong & unique alternatives with the PG block. Wish I could find the points to give him the Golden Crown.

The reason I went for such a big Helmbus was because of me thinking that I don't have any real protection spells to make the bus tougher so it would be better to have some extra wounds on the bus to make it last. I think chaff in this list is perfect and "just enough", the Great Eagle's greater maneuverability from M10 and Fly makes it the essential chaff to aid the bus. I really like the bows on the Reavers in this list as they are my only way to take out the Charmed Shield from something like a Daemon Prince in this list outside of magic. I needed to spend an extra 10pts on Reavers to reach Core limit so I gave one unit a champ simply because of the BS5 on champ for Charmed Shield hunting purposes! :P

Sorry for dropping this long-winded post on your army blog but since you're the only active poster running the Helmbus list under ETC comp in this forum, I thought I'd ask for some advice! Do you think I can make this list concept work, does it have potential? I can also switch to Life on the Lvl4 without losing anything so do you think Life would work better than Beasts?


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:29 pm 
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Hi Lecai, that`s an interesting take on the list indeed! Usually, I think Beasts is overkill with the bus, but I can see why you`d want it alongside the PG.

In a way, your list is a lot more similar to Furion`s compared to mine. Conceptually they differ in the choice of elite unit, and I actually fear that your PG could end up being a weak target. I know it sounds improbable (to say the least!), but against a lot of foes I see their lack of BOTWD as problematic. Daemons and Dark Elves for example, Skaven as well probably. Furion ran L4 Life and WL as the elite unit, with MR3 on the bus. Life is great because you can heal the characters, but apart from that I fail to see how it`s a good lore but Furion`s results speak for themselves.

My preferred approach with 1+1 would be either Death or Loremaster, with the Loremaster going on foot (obviously). See my SM analysis for a sample list (yet untested). I saw you mention Swordmasters in a similar configuration on another thread with Razor Standard BSB. While I believe Razor Standard BSB is super-gutsy to say the least, perhaps it could work given dragon armour and high magic. Is this something you could want to try out, i.e. L4 high on foot with foot BSB in Swordmasters alongside a bus? The L1 could go mounted in the bus, but someone (a Noble I suppose) would have to pay the mandatory 45 points for MR3 I think. I found @SM that I had to hide the cavalry characters far too often in the BOTWD-Lions, S4 T3 can`t really cope with Death and even LD10 fails hard every now and then vs Spirit Leech.

Anyways, back to the PG. I suppose you take them because you want BOTWD on the bus and thus WL/SM are out of the question? The question then is what they bring, relative to a Frostheart and more characters/sisters of avelorn/whatever. One option would be to drop them entirely and bring a Handmaiden with a big unit of Sisters, at which point you essentially have a bowline with a strong bus. Not a bad choice, in my opinion! Given that you want the PG, I`m not sure Beasts is the best lore. The inherent problem here is that you have no spell with which to draw a scroll early on, except maybe the Spear. Whenever you rely on combat spells, I find this to be hugely important as the scroll killing a crucial phase can often lose you the game. Could you perhaps be satisfied with Beasts on the L1, which frees up the L4? You could go for Death, High or whatever else floats your boat. Death means you cannot take the Book, but you could go power stone instead which I have a lot of respect for, and the lore has 2 quite powerful spells to go with the PG (D&D/Soulblight) along with a multitude of spells to draw a scroll. There are next to no armies in the entire game that don`t fear at least one spell from death when you have an M9 L4 mage.

Essentially I think that in Beasts you want Wildform, while the rest are circumstantial at best: your bus is supposed to grind hard and there are very few units that are capable of withstanding it. Those that are I find to be weak vs Purple Fun.

With that being said, give it a shot if you feel Beasts is the way to go. This is all theory-hammer anyway, but I think a L2 with Beasts could largely fulfil what you`re trying to achieve :)

As for the specific choices in your list, they look good I think. Helms need to be big, 17 is fine ;) Again I think my 12-bus is too small when featuring a cavprince. Big Helms + 2x Reavers is a very viable approach I believe. PG are maxed out, RBTs maxed out. All good! You could drop the Eagle for Crown + MR1 on the mage, but I don`t know if it`s worth it: the Eagle is very powerful ^^

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:40 pm 
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It starts to look more and more like the list I described to you in an earlier post ;-) All you now need is to exchange the Frosty with some sisters :lol:
I actually think the Frosty is too much of a canon magnet to be very efficient against a broad variety if opponents, and as it is your only monster it only saves a few helms from the canon death. What do you think?
The guy who ran the very similar list that we called "the death bus", experimented with a Great Weapon on one of his Nobles so that he would be allowed to strike at different initiatives. I'm not sure how he it went. What is your opinion about that approach?

Very interesting thought regarding adding a hand maiden into a large unit of sisters, while having a cav bus. I will give it a thought


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:22 pm 
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For now I think I`m going with the Frostie. As I can`t take the Book regardless with Death it doesn`t help my pool choices.

The Nobles are already kinda hard to tool up defensively. Adding a two-handed weapon makes it even harder. I think I`ll keep the current setup for now, see how things feel with Death. The ones I lose the most potential against are other Elves where Fiery Convocation and boosted Soul Quench are really good, but in these matchups the rest of my equipment doesn`t matter that much. Reaver Bow could be considered I suppose, I`ve seen it run in a cavbus before. We`ll see how the list feels :)

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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