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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Huge congratulations are in store Curu. Just two spots outside a top 10 finish is a fantastic result I think, especially against such stuff competition. The last matchup against DE didn't do you any favors. I'll be interested to see how your mega bus turns out as time marches on.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Thanks for the in depth break down Curu - will look at new lists with interest.

SpellArcher wrote:
Curu is a damn good player Ferny, which is why he usually wins.


Reading this breakdown I think he and I play a completely different game - not ETC vs warhammer but Pro vs (not pro) hammer! Great reading :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:48 pm 
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Congrats on the good result! I've enjoyed reading the reports very much - the battle versus Skaven was particularly interesting in all its wackiness ;)

I'm sorry to hear you're thinking about dropping the 3 unit approach - this was a route I wanted to explore (swapping Alith Anar for a mounted Prince), your blog was an inspiration on how to apply it in practice (although in a much more casual setting). I'll be looking forward to seeing you try these new lists out, though ;)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:11 pm 
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As everyone has been saying, nice reports Curu! :)

Certainly, your final position was no disgrace - Kaj had a big lead in first, but it was only 6 points between you and second place. Having to be the one to face Kaj in the last game didn't help either - that was a horrible matchup to try to preserve points from!

As for your tournament list, I believe it was a nicely constructed list in it's own right, but I think the biggest problem it had was that it didn't suit your preference for mobile, board-controlling lists. For a good general (such as yourself), any reasonable list is potentially capable of beating a normal opponent, but to beat the top opponents you need to play a list that matches your personal style. That way, every decision you make is more natural, it might only be a few per cent more, but at that level "every little helps" (as one of my former employers would say! :D )

I'm looking forward to seeing your new list in action!

PS Congratulations to Rusty for great finish (even if I disapprove of Ogres on principle!!)


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:39 pm 
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@sparkytrypod - Indeed! It`s interesting to note that WE are yet another tough matchup for the list I took to SM ;)

@Teledor - Save it for when I win a big tournament ;) Thanks, I`m really looking forward to trying the big bus!

@Ferny - No problem! Just keep asking if anything`s unclear, I`ll do my best to reply. At the end of the day we all play the same game, but varying degrees of skill play a huge role when it comes to what works, what doesn`t etc. When I started encountering players who employed double-flee and reforms properly I was shocked by how powerful a lot of the moves performed against me were. Now I think of it naturally because I expect people to play close to optimally. The following reports show how M5 blocks can be handled despite the situation looking terrible:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=768063#p768063
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=767284#p767284
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=745882#p745882
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=746515#p746515

These are all from my old blog, which is largely because I rarely encounter these mistakes any longer. People wise up ;) You can also tell in the Skaven and VC games from this tourny how relatively easy slow-moving infantry is to handle compared to mobile units. Getting a block into meaningful combat without significant ranged presence is incredibly hard.

@RE.Lee - Yeah I`m sorry to drop it too, but I just don`t believe it works when the really good players are on the opposite side of the field. While I can accept some tough matchups, this configuration simply has too many. It`s a direct result of trying to make too many things work together at once - they`re all left with just too little strength to perform their intended roles.

@Orchaldor - I think that regardless of play style, the list isn`t strong enough. I could most certainly have played better, but not enough to win the tournament I think.

Rusty had a rough start with a similar-ish DE list that won 12-8 against him. After that however he played better and better. Before the last game he was at 53 points, but he got a really good matchup (same Daemons player I faced) on planet bowling ball (literally no terrain to hide behind for at least 2 turns for the BT). The DoC player threw caution to the wind and Rusty defended very well, systematically tearing the Daemons apart and ending up with a solid 18-2 victory! A well deserved placement with a strong list which is very promising for our team tournament where we are looking to take shooty Ogres ;)

---

A few thoughts on the cavstar list. First of all, many of you might ask what makes this bus different from running the list I took to SM with boosted Helms. The answer lies in its flexibility, but it`s hard to realize and identify. First of all, the ranged presence is increase. The inclusion of another bolt thrower and a flyer grants a lot of board control. In the spell department I`m sad to see the Loremaster go (why can`t we mount him??), but High Magic brings a lot to the table. The opportunity to triple up on Soul Quench is amazing in so many matchups, for example against the dreaded DE. Walk Between Worlds is extremely powerful with both the bus and the Phoenix and Fiery Convocation helps deal with anything from RXBs to Waywatchers to Troll. Even a BOTWD Lion unit fears this spell as it will slowly tear anyone apart. Most importantly however the bus is extremely durable, you might notice I have equipped most fighty characters with Dragon Armour which makes it even easier to start stacking that ward. Basically there`s hardly a unit in Warhammer who can face it and expect to win, now add to this the fact that with M9 and WBW it`s extremely flexible and you have a real beast at your hands. Furthermore the list has very few drops and a couple of hidden tricks to further aid the bus` survivabilty and ensure it gets the matchups it wants. I`m hoping I get to show off one at least one of these tomorrow ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Hmm.. Suddenly stalking your posts here on Ulthuan.net finally yielded other things than getting an insight into your tactical deciscions and your thoughts on list building (Which i have learned a lot from BTW, so thanks!) It at least gives me some time to prepare for what is coming (i have been sitting here all day thinking about my strategies against your SM list..)

The Cav-bus approach is indeed a much tougher list, with an incredible amount of flexibility compared to M5 infantry units, and a huge increase in ranged/MM threats. I'm suddenly a lot less confident in what my list can do against you, i think who gets T1 might have a large impact on how it will fare.. A good Magic phase from you T1 can potentially leave me without anything at all to deal with you in any manner. I'm looking forward to the game anyways! I learn more from playing against armies that are a really tough match up for me than against armies i steamroll off the table (The main reason why i joined the gaming club is to get the chance to play against tougher opponents more often and learn more).

Anyways, i have a few tricks up my sleeve as well (Which i hopefully can put to good use) ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:47 am 
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Thanks heaps for all the reports. I really enjoyed reading them and may even have learned a thing or two.

Congratulations on the high finish despite not having many easy matchups.

I think reading your reports here has confirmed the (somewhat disappointing) truth I have been suspecting for a while: without a standalone combat choice from core (like witch elves, savage orc big uns, chaos warriors) it's not sensible for HE to field 3 major combat blocks at the highest standard of play (at 2400 at least). (I recognize the helms are good but a large block only seems to function as a character bus and the characters will cost about as much as another combat block by themselves).

Regarding your new list, I look forward to seeing it in action.
I don't think I'd be very comfortable taking it against something like life magic Empire (unless dwellers is comped for unlimited LOS).

Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:24 am 
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@hansleonard - I know the feeling. For SM, we drew match 4 after match 3 was done, and despite having faced that Empire list 3 times I couldn`t stop thinking about it for the rest of the day. As for T1, it`s always essential in a shooting matchup but taking measures so you don`t instantly lose if you don`t go first is important. Playing strong opponents is important to develop your game.

@gaz - Good to know ;) I don`t think any army can pull off a 3-block approach, perhaps apart from DoC and maybe EMP. It`s unwieldy and inflexible.

As for Dwellers... I`m bound to run into it at some point but comped it`s not that disastrous. Don`t get me wrong it`s easily the worst spell in the book for me, but we`ll see.

The final match @SM was streamed, and part of it is still online. For those of you who are interested, here`s the link: http://bambuser.com/v/4610589

EDIT: Looks like the entire match is online, just follow the links when the first video is finished.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:40 am 
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Hey!

I would like to thank you Curu for this thread. Really interesting stuff! I especially liked the tournament analysis and your thoughts about different lists and builds.

Have you ever considered light council with the Silver Helm bus?


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Good to know you appreciate the musings as well ;)

The way I see the light council, you need an infantry threat. Timewarping these is very, very dangerous and in my opinion this is needed alongside banishment to create a viable threat. With that being said, I did make a draft with a cavbus + coven recently, but like my Loremaster list that I took to SM it just feels a little too short in a little too many places.

---

Just had a game vs WE. Hoping to get the report up before I go to bed! It was nice to play a mobile list again, though Curse partially negated my otherwise huge mobility advantage.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Had a game vs new Wood Elves today! An interesting encounter indeed :)

.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Wood Elves (ETC comp) .::.

My list:

High Archmage L4 Steed, Power Stone, Crown of Command, Dragonbane Gem = 300
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 582

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2396

His list:

L4 Death, steed, mr2, power stone, moonstone
L1 Shadow, steed, scroll
BSB Hail of Doom, Bow of Loren, steed

10 Archers poison
12 Archers trueflight
19 Archers trueflight

7 Sisters, muso & champ
7 Wild Riders
7 Wild Riders

12 Waywatchers
12 Waywatchers
2 Eagles

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

I needed to close with him fast and provide as much cover as I can. I deploy close to the table edge so that if he wants to deploy opposite me, there`s nowhere to run. Magic sees me roll a pretty bad combo, and I`m left with Hand, Soul Quench, WBW, Fiery Convocation. L1 took Soul Quench, I needed to be able to spam this. He got Spirit Leech, Caress, Soulblight and Purple Sun, L1 took Miasma.

One problem for me was the combination of exposed RBTs and Wild Riders: if they could take them out quickly and wheel around, they could easily be strong enough to be a big threat for my bus later on. I was just hoping the RBTs would be capable of holding their own, at least partially.

He won the roll for choosing sides, and our table (randomly drawn) wasn`t heavy on terrain. He chose the side with ruins (which I wanted so badly for my cav to deploy in!) so I had to go pretty open. Adding insult to injury, he took T1 as well, despite my +1 (this list has VERY few drops).

Image

// WE T1 //

Things move into position, wildriders move up towards RBTs. Magic sees me let Spirit Leech through on the Frostheart, he wins by 1 point but I`m 1LD ahead so no effect. He lands Curse on the bus as well. Shooting sees poison Archers target Frostheart, but no effect after I roll a ward save or two. Small accurate Archers target Shadow Warriors, 3 die. Waywatchers kill a handful of Knights (move, long, most had cover).

Image

// HE T1 //

Bus moves up 9". I`m not in range of any Waywatchers with Soul Quench, but the small accurate Archers are within 18". Frostheart moves to grant hard cover along with Shadow Warriors.

Magic sees a boosted Soul Quench land on the Archers. He loses most, but panic is passed. I boost the closest RBT`s BS to 8.

Shooting sees all 4 RBTs target the nearest Wild Riders, but 1 survives.

Image

// WE T2 //

Wild Riders charge 2x RBTs. Magic sees scroll come out to stop a Purple Sun needing 8 or 10 to reach the Frostheart. If it dies, I could very well lose. My last magic phase had a `6`, so the Frostheart was well protected, or so I thought: shooting opens up and the 10 poison Archers manage 3W on the Frostie. I can`t pass a single ward save. Upon seeing this opportunity his BSB uses HoDA and manages to score 2 wounds. I can`t pass any of these 4++ either so the Frostie goes down. Panic passed. The remaining 3 accurate Archers kill my 2 Shadow Warriors, so now all WW are free to shoot without cover. Luckily I got 2 spells through last turn, so the 5++ saves a few, but I still lose a significant amount.

Wild Riders kill RBTs, the single model fails to make his overrun into another.

Image

// HE T2 //

Silver Helms charge small Archers. Stand and shoot does nothing. I skip magic: I don`t want to cast fiery because the only target is WW whom I want to run into, WBW has no targets and I don`t want to risk a miscast for Hand of Glory. Shooting sees the 1 Wild Rider go down and the RBT kills a poison-Archer.

In combat I kill the Archers and overrun into WWs. Wild Riders kill a third RBT and run off the table (a mistake on his part as he forgot it was his turn when he placed them, angle-wise).

Image

// WE T3 //

He uses moonstone to move to "my" woods. Shooting kills Reavers, panic passed. Magic saw him land curse on Helms, I stopped Purple Sun because I had a big plan.

In combat the WWs break, I restrain. They run off the table. I reform 2-wide and face his bunker, the reform granting me lots of inches. With the Reavers behind, he can`t flee either!

Image

// HE T3 //

Cavalry charges his bunker. DT tests see me fail a few, including a wound on the L1 mage. Magic sees me skip again, no worthwhile targets. Shooting: RBT panicked, so not much to do here. Reavers fail to impress Wild Riders. In combat, I win big and he needs snake eyes. He fails to get it and I run him down. More SH + L1 mage die in the process, but it`s worth it. The question is, can my remaining cavalry take 3 rounds of shooting from Waywatchers?

Image

// WE T4 //

Wild Riders charge last RBT. Magic is nothing. Shooting sees the Waywatchers open up, but as I`m down to 4 RnF, I can allocate. I put as many on multi-wound characters as I can, and with moving + long + cover + this allocation he fails to kill any Helms. A couple of wounds go on multi-wound characters, no biggie.

Image

// HE T4 //

I reform to face his shooters, knowing full well that I have to put some serious pressure on them. Magic is 8v5 and I start with 5D6 boosted Soul Quench on Waywatchers. The total is 25, but he rolls double 6s to dispel. I power stone through Fiery Convocation, which kills 5/12. Panic is passed.

Image

// WE T5 //

Wild Riders come onto the table again, in my rear. Magic sees him roll huge and he dispels Fiery Convocation. Shooting sees the same thing happen as last time: no wounds are dealt to Helms. Taking them down to 7 really helped!

Image

// HE T5 //

I reform to face Wild Riders, intent on destroying them to neutralize what I consider to be the worst threat. I forgot for a moment that I have the crown of command, but regardless this is a scary bunch with 3 S5 AP attacks per model, especially considering my multi-wound models have been tanking Waywatcher hits.

In magic I get 4v2 which is pretty good and I boost Soul Quench and this time he can`t find the 6s needed. 4 Wild Riders go down and they`re much more manageable now.

Image

// T6 //

His last turn in the game, and yet again the WWs open up, dealing no significant damage. In my final turn, he gets 5DD but is powerless to stop a 5D6 boosted Soul Quench, which just manages to kill the remaining 7 Waywatchers. With that, the game is over! Counting up VPs, I`m roughly 550 ahead (which was way less than I thought I`d be) - a 13-7 victory to the High Elves!

// Evaluation //

This matchup is a bit harder than I thought it would be. Now granted the ETC comp has yet to come in place for Wood Elves and I believe few players will end up having more than 20 Waywatchers, but still: the various threats are hard to cope with given their superior mobility and firepower. What cost me the most in this game was being unable to help the RBT. I should`ve sacrificed Reavers for this purpose, with the Wild Riders being frenzy it`s not very hard to send them off whereever I want, or force him not to get a charge off. The Reavers can`t do much else useful anyways.

The Frostie going down so quickly was bad luck, but that`s what you get sometimes. Poison can often do nothing, but suddenly it deals a world of pain to you. If it had been alive with just 1W the Waywatchers would`ve had a much harder time killing my knights.

Overall I really like what they`ve done to WE. It`s hard to how powerful they are just yet, but I like the way the army plays and it`s definitely deadly to face for other Elves (well, High Elves anyway. Dark Reaper keeps telling me I`m a noob because he 20-0`d WE in his first game vs them as DE). It should be said though that in this game, if I had gotten first turn everything would`ve looked way different. Deploying opposite with powerful units is a huge risk and with me getting T1 he would`ve eaten multiple soul quenches way sooner.

Curse of Anraheir is a terrific spell for Sisters. It`s so good for WE to have an easily accessible spell which counters deathstars and busses. While I caught his bunker off-guard and this won me the game, it cost me my L1 and a fighter hero (both failed 2 DTs in a row). Losing the L1 greatly reduced my flexibility as my offensive spells were effectively halved from 3x Soul Quench + Fiery to 1x SQ + Fiery.

Looking forward to my next game with this list already. Feels good to play ;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:35 am 
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How did the reform net you movement? I thought you reformed on your centre man on the front rank, so if you are going 2-wide you simply go 2-wide behind him?

Good win though - and nice to see another report surface vs new woodies - I haven't fought them yet so great to see how they play - more grist to the 'they play well' mill, which is great news given their long hibernation in Loren :). Also I notice I haven't congratulated you yet on the placement in the previous tourney I was commenting on - excellent placing, nice one :).

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:36 am 
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poor deployment from the wood elf, he pretty much went refused flank and bunched up his army which suited you. just look at all that open board for him to use!!

he should be using the whole back board for his archers with no to hit penalty and waywatchers being BS5 and skirmishers should not be caught in a corner like that.

with 2 eagles and 2 small glade guard units as chaff the bus should never see any big point combat really.

I think your opponent just wanted to use the moonstone and let it influence his deployment.

he has more drops and way watchers should be 29 inches away from your bus every turn, shooting, not stuck In the corner!

also did the wood elf bsb take his free shot(arrow of kurnos) at the start of the game?

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Last edited by sparkytrypod on Thu May 15, 2014 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:58 am 
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Ferny wrote:
How did the reform net you movement? I thought you reformed on your centre man on the front rank, so if you are going 2-wide you simply go 2-wide behind him?

Good win though - and nice to see another report surface vs new woodies - I haven't fought them yet so great to see how they play - more grist to the 'they play well' mill, which is great news given their long hibernation in Loren :). Also I notice I haven't congratulated you yet on the placement in the previous tourney I was commenting on - excellent placing, nice one :).



the center of the unit must remain in the same position, so basically if you have 10 models in 2 x 5 you could place them 10x1 instead, bringing you a lot closer to other units etc. the center of the front rank remains in the same position.
when you reform you may do this in any direction.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:34 am 
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sparkytrypod wrote:
Ferny wrote:
How did the reform net you movement? I thought you reformed on your centre man on the front rank, so if you are going 2-wide you simply go 2-wide behind him?

Good win though - and nice to see another report surface vs new woodies - I haven't fought them yet so great to see how they play - more grist to the 'they play well' mill, which is great news given their long hibernation in Loren :). Also I notice I haven't congratulated you yet on the placement in the previous tourney I was commenting on - excellent placing, nice one :).



the center of the unit must remain in the same position, so basically if you have 10 models in 2 x 5 you could place them 10x1 instead, bringing you a lot closer to other units etc. the center of the front rank remains in the same position.
when you reform you may do this in any direction.

Actually you reform about the center of the unit, not the center of the front rank.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:32 am 
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Although you haven't mentioned in detail, I see that your shadow warriors are deployed so that they screen silver helm bus.
Did you deploy your scouts first after winning roll-off? Or did the WE player deploy waywatchers at his deployment zone despite winning the roll-off?

Given that WE took the first turn, I think deployment of shadow warriors helped you prevent waywatchers unleashing full volley
right in front of silver helms with BS5.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:39 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The way I see the light council, you need an infantry threat. Timewarping these is very, very dangerous and in my opinion this is needed alongside banishment to create a viable threat.


I think it's possible to fit white lions in there as well if you lose the Loremaster. I'm not sure you need the level 4 + loremaster. The problem I have with of infantry only light council is protecting your characters. They are safe in BOTWD white lions but sooner or later you have to engage. I don't like the idea of having them in combat with anything. Off course you can move them out to another unit before the combat starts but then they lose the BOTWD and are in greater risk. Sea helm BSB with naval discipline is an option I guess (3 wide and then you reform so that the characters are safe)...


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:52 am 
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@Ferny - Sounds like you need to re-read the rules here ;) It's a very vital difference. Note that under a combat reform however, the center does not need to stay the same, allowing some pretty hefty shuffling (something you can abuse with 1v1 model fights, e.g. a Star Dragon can drastically alter its position against an enemy monster with a combat reform as you only need to be corner-to-corner). New Woodies need more playing against, no doubt.

@sparkytrypod - he was forced to commit before me. What would you have done, with both eagles down, both trueflight archers down and still no bus or frosty on the table? The Waywatchers ended up in a poor spot indeed, but it did force me into the corner as well. Perhaps he was hoping more would've died before I got there? The main problem for WE is my ability to spam magic missiles and direct damage: the bus doesn't need to be in combat as long as it's killing WWs.

The free arrow took a wound off of my Prince.

@John Rainbow - Correct :)

@Sinsigel - I won the roll-off, but regardless he wouldn't have placed WWs 13" away from me: it's pure suicide. If he does that and I get first turn, the game is over without a doubt.

@Mufasa - I made a draft some time ago which I suppose is close to what you're asking for. I haven't tested it though. Link here:
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=64797 The list is as follows:

Quote:
Light Archmage L4 Scepter of Stability
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Shield, Heavy Armour, Ironcurse Icon

Light Mage Scroll
Light Mage Channelling Staff
Lothern Sea Helm, Armour of Silvered Steel, Luckstone, BSB

11 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician
5 Reavers, Bows (swap)
5 Reavers
19 Spears, Musician

28 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon

3 RBTs
Frostheart Phoenix

2399 points

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:30 am 
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This is getting little off topic, sorry. I was thinking about buying steeds for mages and putting them in the bus with prince, bsb (BOTWD) and second noble. This way the casters benefit from the banner and are safe in the back rank. Then you can also take lions (but you lose the frosty). I haven't tested this list and I wonder if lions are viable without the BOTWD...

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Noble on Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Star Lance, The Other Tricster's Shard
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:49 am 
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My awkward Spears stem from the fact that Lions cannot work without BOTWD, sadly. Just look at Executioners, for some reason Dark Elf players keep taking them but everyone I know love facing them because they are free points (of which there are few, in a DE army).

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:17 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
My awkward Spears stem from the fact that Lions cannot work without BOTWD, sadly. Just look at Executioners, for some reason Dark Elf players keep taking them but everyone I know love facing them because they are free points (of which there are few, in a DE army).


As I have previously said, Executioners baffle me. They seem like a unit that every DE player finds really good, but at the same time being a unit that everyone else loves facing. The White Lions lack the killing blow and the LD9, but they can have BotWD and have an extra +2 against shooting attacks, which helps immensely.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Lions don't care too much about LD as they're pretty much always within character range. Furthermore, martial prowess is better than murderous prowess for such a unit. KB is huge, but so is stubborn. I'd rather have the latter if I could choose as it's more stable and not matchup-dependent. Regardless, I wouldn't bring Lions in a HE army without BOTWD. I am pretty sure it is a flawed approach, you're looking at T3 5+ save stuff that just dies to anything. The loss of "true" ASF really hurt them. I am getting less and less impressed by Lions for every game I play, even with the BOTWD. I find myself looking more towards PG for our infantry unit of choice, I think a solid unit of 25 of these with Razor Standard is more stable and flexible than Lions (as evidenced by my games @SM where the PG were the stars of the match vs VC, SK and EMP, arguably also Daemons, actually, since their stubbornness allowed the Lions to eventually kill the BT. The problem with PG is that they need a mage tailored to help them out, for example a Loremaster. Ideally you want the Loremaster in a BOTWD-unit, but as you cannot mount him and you aren't bringing Lions you have a dilemma. You could of course bring both, but that would limit your supporting options and/or characters.

Anyways, looking ahead I want to try the Star Dragon as well as the cavstar. I'll be looking to switch between these lists for each game, and with an average of 2 games per week they should both receive regular updates. We've had some more pairing-training and we see that both of these versions bring a LOT to the table as a ton of armies struggle to cope with them. The question is, what brings the most when we already have DE, DW and OK?

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:55 pm 
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I think I get why executioners should be free points (soft target), but does that play out given a target saturation of soft targets? Everything in the DE army is fairly soft bar cold ones and monsters, and they all hit hard, so they all want taking out. How come executioners prove to be the weak link? I ask because witches and executioners as a dual block seem so obvious, like PG and WL but more offensive and less resilient, and if I were to start DE that would be an obvious playstyle to go for given my high elves...

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Lions don't care too much about LD as they're pretty much always within character range. Furthermore, martial prowess is better than murderous prowess for such a unit. KB is huge, but so is stubborn. I'd rather have the latter if I could choose as it's more stable and not matchup-dependent.


Agreed on all points.

Ferny wrote:
I think I get why executioners should be free points (soft target), but does that play out given a target saturation of soft targets? Everything in the DE army is fairly soft bar cold ones and monsters, and they all hit hard, so they all want taking out. How come executioners prove to be the weak link? I ask because witches and executioners as a dual block seem so obvious, like PG and WL but more offensive and less resilient, and if I were to start DE that would be an obvious playstyle to go for given my high elves...


I agree that it seems obvious at first, and so many of my fellow DE players play exactly this way as well. However, Witch Elves have frenzy and neither of them has any save to write home about. If you go the whole nine yards and include a Cauldron with the Witch Elves they become expensive quick. This is not the end of the world in itself, but the points you need to spend on Executioners with this setup greatly reduce the amount of board control units (Reapers, Shades, Warlocks etc.) you can bring, meaning that the opponent can decide where to battle. He can simply chaff away the Witches, while magicing and shooting the Executioners off the board among other things.

Enough derailing. I am really looking forward to see how both the Star Dragon and the bus works out for you. I still think the Star Dragon has more potential to win really big as there are so many armies that has no way of dealing with it, but the bus seems strong as well and does seem to have hardly any bad matchups at all. I am looking forward to see what you end up with and I am sure you are going to make a wise decision in the end.

And btw, I am going to continue calling you a n00b until you have beat the new WE 20-0. :P

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:15 pm 
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I made two major mistakes. The deployment in itself wasn't all that bad for me. On average i would do enough damage to keep the bus away. I completelly forgot about my eagles in the first rounds of the game. They could have kept the bus out of combat for at leas t one more turn. I also opted to stand and shoot with the trueflight guys instead of running, potentially leaving him trapped after a failed charge against WW',s or even in a worst case scenario, he gets into combat with them, but he loses a few more models from stand and shoot, and it's my turn next so i can move away from him and start chaffing him out. I completelly missed this point at the moment though. I really need to think more strategically through my desicions like that.

Deployment wise, i knew that i needed to make sure he focused on one corner of the board. If i spread out, even with eagles to block him, he could easilly use swift reforms and the like to get within Soulquench range of my Waywatchers. What i needed to do was to keep his main forces focused on one point of the board, allowing me to pick off his remaining army thanks to my superior shooting and even mobility. Waywatchers deployed like this to prevent them from being shot down. They both had hard cover from all his RBT's and with the smallest amount of cover possible against his bus. I needed to position them so that i didn't need to move them much, to get as little a to hit penalty as possible to increase their killyness, without them i have nothing that can threaten his bus (Except for a lucky combo of miasma and purple sun.. Or Curse of anraheir of course. Having his entire army bunched up like that it was easy for me to move in with my Wild riders to pick off his RBT's (I knew it would come at a heavy cost, but i was confident that hey would do the job, and still have enough hitting power to threaten him in the later game turns, which they did.) I also REALLY needed the first turn, if Curu had gotten that it would most likelly have been game over for me. I knew that if i got the first turn there was a good chance for me to be able to delay him for at least one turn with both Curse, Purple sun and to some degree Miasma making it harder for him to get too close.

My main problem is that i'm too rusty, and not completelly confident in what desicions i should make at a given time. More practice will see that bettered.

The new WE book certainly is better. And i consider it a mid tier power level. There are some trully horrific match-ups, Ridicolously shooty dark elves for excample.

To sum it all up.. I defend my choice when it comes to deployment. It was what i considered the safest route to take. With the exception of the Waywatchers i deployed on my extreme right, they should have been deployed closer to the centre of the board to avoid the situation they eventually got themselves into from ever happening, but if i had done that, i'm not confident i would be able to push him as heavilly into the one corner. I did 3-4 huge tactical blundersthat cost me the match, but other than that i'm satisfied with the result.

sparkytrypod wrote:
I think your opponent just wanted to use the moonstone and let it influence his deployment.


I didn't deploy to use the moonstone in particular. I placed my forest there and deployed the sisters in it to have a foolproof escape route if needed. As i said, my main goal was to try and force him into a corner to keep the bus occupied long enough for me to weaken it sufficiently. The Moonstone move i made was to get away from his bus, as well as to help my shooting clear out the rest of his army. I made a huge miste allowing him to make that reform in my turn, and to be honest, i didn't even consider the possibility, i haven't played enough games to predict such moves (even though it feels like i should be able to do so as i have played with similar lists as the one Curu is using for the past 3 years.)

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:38 pm 
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@Ferny - Remember that Witchelves are core, whereas PG and WL are special. This is a huge difference, as Witchelves by default are tailored to handle big amounts of light troops with 3 poisoned ASF attacks per model, but can be configured to be relatively durable and killy by investing points in characters. This is something we cannot do with PG nor Lions, the former are good all-rounders but are no-where near as dangerous as a horde of Witchelves with a cauldron and a S7 1+ re-rollable Dreadlord with the razor standard to boot. You just can`t argue with 32 ASF attacks with poison, re-rolls to wound AND armour piercing, that`s not even counting the terror, impact hits, or character attacks! Furthermore, as I explained in my last post I am beginning to doubt even Lions WITH the BOTWD. Now we`re looking at Dark Elves who can have an excellent combat unit based on their core points, so I don`t understand how it makes sense to invest in a special unit which is pretty much inferior compared to Lions against anything apart from cavalry and characters, as they can`t even take the BOTWD.

The thing is that thinking you need X mainstay units is a flawed approach. Each fraction has to play to its strengths. Both Dark Elves and High Elves have multiple viable approaches. For Dark Elves, it usually revolves around their extremely potent support elements (Dark Riders, Warlocks, Shades) and flexible characters, for us it usually revolves around character configuration. For example, when you design a High Elf list, regardless of your approach you have to make some hard decisions really, really soon. For example, say you want coven of light. Do you take the Loremaster, a Prince or just an L4? Do you want the flying circus? No more lord choices left for you! What you see is that these choices largely dictate the way the rest of the list evolves - not the other way around. For Dark Elves, characters can be chosen to fit the rest of the army. Say you want MSU shooting for example, you stack up on Shades, Warlocks, RBTs, Darkshards, Dark Riders. Whether your L4 is on a Peg and the Dreadlord is on a horse or the other way around doesn`t matter that much. Even Lore choices for Dark Elves can be switched on a whim without necessarily affecting the way the list plays too much (e.g. shooty switching between Shadow/Dark/Death), whereas for a High Elf list your L4`s main lore will hugely impact the way your list can play.

The illusion of target saturation is largely a lie, which is doubly true for M5 infantry. See my last practice game prior to SM where I faced DE for example. If I wanted to, I could`ve easily isolated the Witchelves and taken out the Executioners. Now granted in this game I did try something else so you`ll have to take my word for this being a possibility which I chose to forego. Any good opponent can prioritize and isolate with impunity. Witchelves and Executioners do not complement eachother what so ever. They have completely different roles and preferred targets. WL and PG can, to a large degree given the right magical backup, perform the same roles. Lions with double iceshard on an opponent can grind light infantry without being slaughtered and PG with Wyssan`s can start fighting the tough stuff which you usually want to have your Lions handling. True target saturation occurs when you either have multiple equally dangerous threats and you simply cannot handle them all, or you have an element or two that are so strong that your opponent HAS to focus on them, leaving your otherwise vulnerable elements fairly safe as targeting them will leave the powerhouses safe, which is an even worse scenario.

As I concluded in my SM analysis, the only way to make a list with 2 M5 blocks work is to force virtually any enemy to advance on you. As far as I know only 2 players currently play such a configuration on this forum, John Rainbow and Tethlis (well, at least only 2 that are blogging about such a list`s competitive adventures). You`ll notice that they both have an amazing amount of ranged threats. The same holds true regardless of what fraction you play, and having less than M5 just makes it worse (there`s a reason Dwarfs are M3, which plays a huge role when you try to figure out why Hammerers are so strong in combat for their price). Of course every now and then GW introduces a unit that is so imbalanced it simply brakes these rules (to take an extreme example you could easily make Spearelves work if they had the same price and S10 T10, despite them being M5), but none of our (or DE) infantry units fit this bill, in the context of this discussion.

I have seen several DE players try this dual-block approach, some of them skilled, some of them not so skilled. Neither of them has any strong results to show for though, so my conclusion is that it`s just not a viable approach for them. Given the lack of BOTWD and their other excellent unit choices, I can understand this perfectly well.

Oh and lastly, remember that Executioners are T3 5+. That`s their weak link, they are JUST as easy to kill as a Spearelf.

@Dark Reaper - Exactly. I didn`t even touch on the frenzy aspect in my evaluation above, but it`s of course a very double-edged sword which makes it even easier to isolate and redirect at will.

I`m really looking forward to bringing the Star Dragon back to the field again. Not being able to face Empire, Dwarfs or similar gunlines with any reasonable chance of success is a hard pill to swallow as I hate polarized matchups, but in our context here we can largely ignore that aspect and capitalize on its strengths. Besides, another thing I noticed @SM was that there are quite few gunline players. We only saw 1 shooty OK list, a couple of CDs, a couple of DWs and most Empire lists had 1 Cannon + 1 Stank. While bad matchups, these are few, far between and not downright disastrous.

As for the bus, I need to playtest it more. It is way more all-eggs-one-basket than I`ve ever played before, so it will be interesting to see if I can really make it steamroll opponents the way I`ve seen other players do. 24 cavalry models have a huge footprint, so the mobility you expect from an M9 unit isn`t necessarily present while the unit is at full strength.

Hoping for a game on Sunday :)

@hansleonard - Mastering Eagles is key to a defensive play, indeed. Fleeing, even double-fleeing perhaps, would`ve been a viable play. I`m not sure what the optimal deployment is for Wood Elves, as you`ll quickly have LD issues if you don`t hustle up in a tight spot. You don`t want to have 300 point units taking vital tests on LD8. Curse was a real pain to face, it`s just so disastrous to whether for every turn when the alternative is soulblight (great with WWs) or purple sun (great vs Frostheart).

Letting the RBTs go that easily was a huge mistake, probably my worst. Keeping in mind that Wildriders are frenzy, this should be easy to counter with Reavers. I need to learn how to protect these better with a list like mine though. The table edge I got was pretty terrible in light of the fact that I was facing Wood Elves (and thus placing the cavalry in front of the RBT hill would see them far, far away from meaningful units to chew into), but I`m sure there were better ways to deal with this challenge.

Lastly, remember that with having +1, you have a 67% chance to go first. Deploying like you`re getting T1, especially when your opponent has +1, is a suicide move ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:51 am 
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hansleonard wrote:
I made two major mistakes. The deployment in itself wasn't all that bad for me. On average i would do enough damage to keep the bus away. I completelly forgot about my eagles in the first rounds of the game. They could have kept the bus out of combat for at leas t one more turn. I also opted to stand and shoot with the trueflight guys instead of running, potentially leaving him trapped after a failed charge against WW',s or even in a worst case scenario, he gets into combat with them, but he loses a few more models from stand and shoot, and it's my turn next so i can move away from him and start chaffing him out. I completelly missed this point at the moment though. I really need to think more strategically through my desicions like that.

Deployment wise, i knew that i needed to make sure he focused on one corner of the board. If i spread out, even with eagles to block him, he could easilly use swift reforms and the like to get within Soulquench range of my Waywatchers. What i needed to do was to keep his main forces focused on one point of the board, allowing me to pick off his remaining army thanks to my superior shooting and even mobility. Waywatchers deployed like this to prevent them from being shot down. They both had hard cover from all his RBT's and with the smallest amount of cover possible against his bus. I needed to position them so that i didn't need to move them much, to get as little a to hit penalty as possible to increase their killyness, without them i have nothing that can threaten his bus (Except for a lucky combo of miasma and purple sun.. Or Curse of anraheir of course. Having his entire army bunched up like that it was easy for me to move in with my Wild riders to pick off his RBT's (I knew it would come at a heavy cost, but i was confident that hey would do the job, and still have enough hitting power to threaten him in the later game turns, which they did.) I also REALLY needed the first turn, if Curu had gotten that it would most likelly have been game over for me. I knew that if i got the first turn there was a good chance for me to be able to delay him for at least one turn with both Curse, Purple sun and to some degree Miasma making it harder for him to get too close.

My main problem is that i'm too rusty, and not completelly confident in what desicions i should make at a given time. More practice will see that bettered.

The new WE book certainly is better. And i consider it a mid tier power level. There are some trully horrific match-ups, Ridicolously shooty dark elves for excample.

To sum it all up.. I defend my choice when it comes to deployment. It was what i considered the safest route to take. With the exception of the Waywatchers i deployed on my extreme right, they should have been deployed closer to the centre of the board to avoid the situation they eventually got themselves into from ever happening, but if i had done that, i'm not confident i would be able to push him as heavilly into the one corner. I did 3-4 huge tactical blundersthat cost me the match, but other than that i'm satisfied with the result.

sparkytrypod wrote:
I think your opponent just wanted to use the moonstone and let it influence his deployment.


I didn't deploy to use the moonstone in particular. I placed my forest there and deployed the sisters in it to have a foolproof escape route if needed. As i said, my main goal was to try and force him into a corner to keep the bus occupied long enough for me to weaken it sufficiently. The Moonstone move i made was to get away from his bus, as well as to help my shooting clear out the rest of his army. I made a huge miste allowing him to make that reform in my turn, and to be honest, i didn't even consider the possibility, i haven't played enough games to predict such moves (even though it feels like i should be able to do so as i have played with similar lists as the one Curu is using for the past 3 years.)


great to hear your reasoning, its always good to hear from both players :D

any chance you feel like doing a wood elf blog and chronicling your adventures...?? :D

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:22 am 
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@hansleonard - I think you still did deployment wrong. WE have 2 advantages over the HE and it's your mobility and shooting. Yout Trueflight Archers should always be moving (hard to see when there's no BC maps :p). You limited the movement of your WW by placing them in the corner and that itself is a mistake. As a bus you can always out manveour it by range or if it's way too close you can move round to it's flank using you eagles to block as much as possible.
Should also should of placed your forest as close to the middle as possible with 1 unit of trueflight behind it for shotting cover. Then your sisters can be placed anyway and manveour where it needs to be for spells. Shooting for them is very negigible.
I think you shuld of spread your WW in the middle and stay max range from the bus to allow you to maximise the number of shots at the bus.

As for your moonstone move I think it was a major mistaken. You should always be at maximum range for your spells and enemy charge arc unless you're around his flank / rear. I see no tactical advantage for moonstoning there (i don't see any much useful usage of the moonstone considering you can move after using it). So you killed reavers but you lost your bus.

Anyway twas a good match. If you guys want some games on UB lemme know :D

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:17 am 
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@sparkytrypod - I second the importance of both players providing input, it's a big difference from just hearing my side of the story (which you do, 90% of the time). I also second the request for a WE blog, we need more ;)

@pk-ng - The problem with placing the WW anywhere else is their inherent vulnerability to RBTs (which was my point with their deployment as well, force a tough decision on his part. I just messed up with the Reavers). It's pretty much impossible to get them anywhere else without exposing himself too much. Also, by having Sisters in woods he gets +1 to cast, which is pretty huge with an L4 on death.

I haven't picked up UB yet and don't think I will. Warhammer for me is very much about the physical game, I don't think I'd enjoy a digital version and furthermore I hate the UB interface (the graphics are messy and the units are indistinguishable).

---

So, next game sees a long lost friend return to the tabletop: it's finally time for the Star Dragon again! The list I will be taking is as follows:

Prince on Star Dragon with star lance, dragonhelm, golden crown of atrazar, tots, shield = 598
Noble on Griffon, enchanted shield, dawnstone, heavy armour, lance = 260
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, heavy armour, shield, spear, botwd = 168
High Mage L2, scroll, furyring = 170
Characters/heroes: 1196/598

14 Silver Helms, full command and shields = 352
5 reavers, champion = 90
17 Spearelves, musician and standard bearer with +1M = 188
Core: 630

4 RBTs = 280
Eagle = 50
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare: 570

Army total: 2396

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:28 pm 
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Next game is booked, Sunday will see me face shooty Ogres. It`s a bad matchup for the Star Dragon, but I`m hoping I`ll get a chance to do something else than being shot down. I`m pretty psyched to field the big beast again ;)

Playing these new lists, I need new models. I tried to get my hands on Ellyrian Reavers but they are so hard to get by quickly these days. Instead, I opted to convert my characters based on chariot steeds. 3/4 done so far (I`m missing a mounted mage). What do you think?

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