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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:57 pm 
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@Gandalf_82 - Thanks! Indeed the Dragon deserves finishing, but as I don`t play it at the moment it`s not a priority. So many other things I have to finish ^^

@Ferny - If he moves on the left flank it´s not an issue. With M9 I can counter it and even move 5" backwards. The point is, with the cavalry on the refused flank there`s nothing for him to gain by going there. As for the Terrogheist, it can only scream RBTs on my left flank, and if it does it´ll be very far away from all the important things. Anyway, it`s impossible to theory-hammer it all out but I`m sure this is a more robust scenario than what I actually played.

@SpellArcher - By having a more compact deployment the Terrorgheist cannot move to scream my RBTs (not without presenting a very juicy charge at least). Targeting the Wolves is a priority regardless. If I can save the RBTs from screaming deaths as well that`s a bonus ;) You are correct that Wood Elves can deal with a Terrorgheist fairly well: I have some experience vs TG lists with our old book (see old army blog for details) where I had 45 Archers who were deadly against it.

I just got home from a HE mirror matchup, albeit with very different lists. Report will hopefully be up tonight. Also, I forgot to take RBT shots and left them at the club (where most of my models are) so they`ll have to come later.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:12 pm 
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.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs High Elves (ETC comp) .::.

Prince on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance = 163
Heavens Mage, Dispel Scroll = 110
Characters = 871

12 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command = 306
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 125
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
Core = 601

20 White Lions, FC, BOTWD = 340
20 PG, FC, Razor Standard = 375
Special = 715

3 RBT = 210
Rare = 210

Army Total = 2397

His list:

Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard
BSB Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon
Noble Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Luckstone, Crown of Command
High Mage L2 Steed, Scroll
High Mage L2 Steed

18 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Reavers, bows, Champ
5 Reavers, bows, Musician

4 RBTs
Frostheart Phoenix
Eagle

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Basically the only way for me to win this game is to contain the Dragon. The only way to do that is Searing Doom. If he chooses to opt for 2x Soul Quench and chill out at 18" and pound me with the Dragon outside of Searing Doom range, I can`t really do much but hang back and pray for 10-10. Anyway, I was anticipating my opponent to play more aggressively, so the main idea was indeed to get as many rounds as possible with Searing Doom on the Dragon. Also, my bus is useless against his: not only does he have superior numbers but with BOTWD my Prince can`t really hurt him.

Deployment saw me play RBTs in one corner, with the majority of my army on the opposite flank. The Lions got the center, with PG to their right and the bus on the far right. I vanguarded defensively, he did the opposite (keeping Reavers alive was paramount for me):

Image

Magic saw him roll up Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds, Drain Magic and Fiery Convocation. I got Harmonic Convergence and defaulted to Iceshard Blizzard instead. I managed to grab first turn, despite his +1!

// HE(me) T1 //

I start wheeling my things around, taking care not to be chargeable and protecting the flanks. The small Helms move to contain Reavers on the West. My own Reavers move defensively and to contest the East.

Magic is >5 power dice and it doesn`t take me long to cast Searing Doom. I get it off on a pretty big roll and the scroll comes out. Good start! Shooting kills 2 Reavers on the West. They panic and flee off the table. I kill 2 on the East as well, but they pass their panic. I target Phoenix with 2 single bolts, one fails to hit, the other fails to wound.

Image

// HE(him) T1 //

Flyers move to the center of the table, on my refused flank. Reavers block PG + bus.

Magic: can`t really remember what happened here: I either dispelled Walk Between Worlds or he failed to cast Fiery Convocation.

Shooting: 3 Silver Helms die from the small unit. They panic and an RBT panics as well. A single bolt kills 3 Silver Helms from the bus.

Image

// HE(me) T2 //

I place the Lions to receive the Dragon charge. PG go into Reavers. Bus takes care to have Star Dragon vision in case he does decide to go in (arc of sight seen in the photo below). Silver Helms rally. Reavers move up to contain bus, the others grab cover.

Magic is again >5 power dice and I get IF Searing Doom. Dragon takes 3W, Prince takes 1W and the Crown is spent.

Shooting sees me put a wound on the Frostheart. Combat sees PG win and chase away Reavers (they had a champ in front so he broke, I restrained).

Image

// HE(him) T2 //

Bus charges PG (17" away). I flee 4". Star Dragon charges PG, I flee further. He redirects both to WL (bus needing double 6`s), only Star Dragon makes it. Phoenix charges RBT with rallied Helms on overrun path. His Eagle blocks the Helms, but it`s too far away to block BSB / Prince.

Magic: he tries to cast Walk Between Worlds on the Eagle. I dispel it. Boosted Apotheosis targets the Dragon, I scroll it. Magic over. Because of the failed charge from the bus, the Dragon is outside the BOTWD and thus, not stubborn.

Shooting: Some Helms and Reavers go down. All panic tests are passed.

Combat: Phoenix kills RBT and overruns into Helms. Now onto the Dragon combat: my thinking here was that I challenge with the mage now, and charge my BSB into his flank, using the champ to challenge in the next turn. That gives me a static of 7 (3 ranks, banner, flank, charge, BSB). Assuming Champion dies to Prince in challenge with 1 excess wound, he`s testing on LD5, without re-rolls. The mage dies a heroic death, with the scroll gone it`s not that big of a loss. I pass stubborn break test.

Image

// HE(me) T3 //

BSB flanks Dragon. PG rally. Reavers move to provide cover, should the Helms try and charge me next turn. Magic is big, 5+5 or something like that. I get off Wyssan`s at the Lions and Miasma on the Dragon (-2WS), my opponent dispels Iceshard on the Dragon. I didn`t even cast Earthblood because I was afraid of the Champ surviving the Prince and thus facing the overkill from the Dragon.

Shooting: nothing important.

Combat: Disaster strikes as his Prince fails to kill the Champion! The Guardian puts 1W on the Dragon with its mighty S7, but dies horribly to overkill in return (he used breath weapon, a wise move). Regardless, he was testing on LD8 without re-roll... One failed roll later and he flees! The BSB manages to catch him as well and has cover from woods/Reavers. Phoenix kills Silver Helms and reform to face RBT.

Image

// HE(him) T3 //

He decides to play points-preservation and withdraws his bus. Frostheart charges RBT. Magic: he tries convocation but fails to cast it. Shooting: he tries for the BSB. Golden Crown saves one multi-bolt and he fails to hit with the ensuing single-bolts.

Image

After this, he barely gets the Silver Helms down to 3 models (thus receiving 50% VPs) before I can hide them behind a hill. The Frostie eats the RBTs and the last Reaver dies. I fail to get any more points from him, I`m cautious with my casts but critically, I forget about the Eagle. In the end it boils down to me having the Star Dragon + Reavers, while he has Reavers, small Helms, half big Helms and RBTs. The difference is a little over 100 points, so a 10-10 tie is the result. Had I killed the Eagle (or an RBT), it would have been a small win and given the Star Dragon situation, I should´ve been able to land at least 11-9.

// Evaluation //

I think my initial strategy proved solid in this game. It`s very, very risky to have his Star Dragon keep facing Searing Doom for turn after turn, so I can understand rushing him into combat. I do however believe that charging the exposed PG with the bus was a big mistake: given that the Dragon wants to get into combat, it needs to be stubborn. Leaving the PG alone and chaffing them out would be favourable, in my opinion, but I don`t know the matchup too well so perhaps I could`ve eventually grinded down his bus with PG + my bus.

The Star Dragon situation was interesting when I got Wyssan`s through. This actually forces him to challenge as he cannot face 15 S7 + 3S6 attacks when he has only 4W left. Indeed he got lucky that the Prince didn`t kill the champion (with ASF he averages 3 hits, wounding on 3`s, thus 2 on average, and I only save on 6s. He scored 2 hits but rolled two 2`s for to wound), however as he failed his LD8 test this didn`t matter in the end, the odds evening out.

What`s interesting about this matchup is that the Silver Helms, who usually don`t do anything, are super scary for my White Lions. If his bus makes the charge, he`s looking at an insane amount of wounds on the Lions before I get to strike back: 2 Nobles @ S6 ASF average 5 wounds, then there are 12 Silver Helms who, on average, score 9 hits and 7.5 wounds. So, roughly 12 wounds before I get to strike back. Ouch. This means that I don`t really have a unit which can take his charge and hold: PG fare better but they aren`t stubborn and he has huge static (3 ranks, bsb, banner, charge) so this is very risky. The only way for me to successfully receive a charge is to have it happen as part of an overrun and thus get a counter-charge before combat happens. This is next to impossible to force against a skilled opponent.

I hope you enjoyed the report! I`m not generally a fan of mirror matchups but in this case our lists were so fundamentally different that it didn`t matter ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:45 pm 
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Interesting report Curu, I find it odd to fight the same army but also great for finding weaknesses to plug in our strategy.

On turn 3, should he not have tested on LD10 because of your BoTWD in the WL? How do you think it would have turned out of he had not fleed?

It is an interesting prospect when fighting against other high elves that we could use their banner against them. We can usually guarantee it will be riding in some elites.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Hey Curu

Firstly thanks for the consistent reports, good reading material especially when at work. :)

That game against the VC was certainly an eye opener and I’m looking forward to a re-match when your opponent isn’t perhaps so gung-ho with his blender lord. Well played however especially when the initial outcome was looking a bit bleak.

That latest game versus the High Elves is certainly a good one and I also think you’re fantastic at captialising on an opponent’s mistakes/inexperience. I know you’ve spoken about the need to get the Dragon into combat to avoid searing doom however I think your opponent fumbled here by allowing him into combat totally unsupported however wouldn't he have been stubborn also? Taking down big monsters is always such a morale victory so big well done.

The scroll mage seems like a great expendable resource to count on in situations such as that.

When’s the next battle with the Chaos Dwarfs by the way?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:59 pm 
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@Taentagel - you are of course correct! We completely forgot this, but luckily it wouldn`t have impacted the game as he rolled an 11. If this had indeed been the case, I would`ve targeted the Dragon with all attacks possible. He likely would`ve challenged, I decline, he puts Loremaster at the back. 13 Attacks = 6,5 hits = 3.25 wounds. It really can go either way. It`s very important to remember in this matchup though, thanks for pointing it out :)

@Jimmy - I will try to play more consistently now than I have for the past year and a half, it`s been too much on-and-off. As for a re-match against VC, I`m not too keen on it: we`re headed for a big tournament in a month and he`ll be one of the top players. If I face him again I don`t want him to know what I`ve learned. Besides, there are a number of other matchups I`d rather practice against to understand how to play them better. You are also of course correct that the Dragon should`ve been stubborn due to BOTWD, but the crucial thing here would´ve been the BSB re-roll: so again it boils down to the bus charging the PG as the main mistake here.

The scroll mage is surprisingly flexible. I like him more and more ;)

Chaos Dwarfs will unfortunately have to wait for some time. I need to practice my list as much as possible prior to the tournament, after which I`ll likely pick up CD again :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:01 pm 
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I thought when a mounted character was in a challenge then the mount is obliged to fight in that challenge too, and if the character is dead, then they pour their attacks/thunderstomp onto the dead body (which maintains its weapon skill for these purposes :lol: ) and clock up the overkill. This being a big benefit of champs, who die heroically but the unit, inspired by his martyrdom, fight on (maintain steadfast due to not being mauled and Tstomped). I take it my understanding here is incorrect :)?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Ferny wrote:
I thought when a mounted character was in a challenge then the mount is obliged to fight in that challenge too, and if the character is dead, then they pour their attacks/thunderstomp onto the dead body (which maintains its weapon skill for these purposes :lol: ) and clock up the overkill. This being a big benefit of champs, who die heroically but the unit, inspired by his martyrdom, fight on (maintain steadfast due to not being mauled and Tstomped). I take it my understanding here is incorrect :)?

It depends on initiative steps and at what initiative steps characters are killed.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:25 am 
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Thanks for the batrep!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:10 am 
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@Ferny - Initiative steps are important to consider. This does not only apply to a challenge, but also regular combat where champions, characters, flanking units etc often makes a big mess of what can attack what when multiple initiative steps are present. It`s a huge problem for the Dragonlord, one which I discussed thoroughly in my old army blog (link in signature). It`s less of a problem now that he typically has the BOTWD backing him up, but previously you could easily lose by 2-3 on static alone and you don`t want a 700VP model to take a test on 7-. This is partly why Champions are so good, the other part of course being that regardless of combat resolution they`ve bought their unit a turn, which usually means magic can come to your assistance (which again helps to explain why people hate Mindrazor so much - their big, bad monster charges in, gets challenged out and eats S8 attacks in its next turn).

@John Rainbow - quite right you are, sir!

@Nicene - you`re welcome :)

List submitted now to the tourney, same one I used in this game. Now I have 1 month to finish painting ~10 cavalry models and some movement trays, as well as getting more games in of course.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Hard game, well done.

Choosing targets become very important i this game. I would probably poured everything into the dragon. Then again, you might end up with dead dragon, a lord in hiding and nothing to show for it. Hard desicion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:30 pm 
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You're playing games too fast for me to keep up! I only just finished the VC one! Comments about the latest one to come when I read it...

So, comments about the VC game then... I think you hit the nail on the head with this being about deployment and controlling the movement phase. As you say you were lucky that your opponent decided to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory but that's the way it goes sometimes! I think we all agree that you have very limited options against the Hexwraiths here. Short of a very good magic phase, you don't really have an answer outside of combat with either the Prince or a durable unit with enough static res to give them problems. Note that WLs could be an option here due to BotWD and them having magical attacks. Assuming you save all the wounds they do on the unit, you only generate 3 static res though (2 ranks and banner) so will be stick in there for a few turns - as a VC counts player I would take the hit on the Hex's to tie up the WLs so this might not be that good of an option in the end. If you can get the charge and any other bonuses though it becomes something to think about. It also means though that you can afford to run the lions up and maybe even take a charge to the flank or whatever from the wraiths as they will likely rubber lance and give you some control of the board.

In the end then I think you are correct about needing to deploy correctly and dictate the movement phase to get those matchups you need in order to pop the wraiths. I actually don't think your deployment was that bad in this game. I also think you could perhaps have been more aggressive, particularly with your bus. I am curious as to why you didn't go after the Terrorgheist straight from the get go before sweeping in from your right flank? This would have given your opponent some problems I think? I agree that the dogs needed to die earlier than they did - I tend to target these first too. In the end I think there was one big problem with your deployment here - the PG on the flank. They are the only unit you have that really don't stand up to the Hexwraiths (excluding chaff which you can afford to lose in the right situation). Having this unit, which gets run over by Hex's (and did in the game) as your holding unit on the flank is a big problem as they can't hold that flank against these units. Your idea of deploying them centrally if you play this matchup again is a much more solid choice - not only for the reasons you gave but because it protects them from the wraiths and allows them to go after the other combat units of ghouls and skellies which they should tear apart.

As to your post about a different deployment in this type of game, I would maybe switch your 'new' deployment map against this type of army to have the WLs towards the left flank and the SH bus to the right hand side. So switching these over effectively. Whilst your current map works, I think having the bus on the flank gives you a few more options and allows your units with more movement (the bus) to get forward on that flank and come in from the side rather than acting straight ahead and maybe even blocking out the PG/WLs as it might in the map you have.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:18 am 
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@rusty - if I target the Dragon and kill the Rider, I no longer have the option of challenging when it hits the Lions. I`m not afraid of the Star Lance as I have 2++ from BOTWD so he doesn`t really contribute much. The Phoenix on the other hand can suddenly be another target for me to focus on if I get a couple of wounds with a single bolt. Let`s say I get an 8v5 magic phase and the Phoenix has 2W left with a 5++. I start off with a 3D6 LD10 Spirit Leech on it. What do you do? Let it go and hope to stop the ensuing Searing Doom on the Dragon? Dispel it and give me a "free cast" of Searing Doom? Admittedly targeting the Dragon once I`ve taken a couple wounds off of it with Searing Doom is suddenly tasty as well, as bringing it down to 2-3 wounds makes it a very risky proposition for it to engage the White Lions. Again though, shooting at the Dragon in my T2 after Searing Doom had taken 3W (the Crown was gone at this point, too) runs a big risk of killing the Prince. The Dragon can then charge corner-to-corner with the Loremaster. 4 hits on average is risky, considering that if the Loremaster drops my magic is essentially gone.

Also as I`m writing this I realize that when I have a situation such as I had in this game, where getting one spell off is crucial, I should start with smaller spells since they`ll almost always be let through. I.e. in a 7v5 split a 2D6 Miasma on an RBT is a good starting point before following up with 5D6 Searing Doom, instead of starting with Searing Doom, getting IF and then losing the last 2 PD. Of course if you`re unlucky and get IF on the first spell you`re kinda screwed, but on 2D6 this is only a 1/36 chance.

@John Rainbow - Yeah I`m trying to get 1-2 games per week :) As for the Hexwraiths - they`re a pain indeed. Lions is a choice, I can reform them after the first round to have 3 ranks, this gives a static of 4. While this is risky for the Hexwraiths, it`s also very risky for me.

I think my deployment was terrible. The PG on the flank are basically locked in a position where they cannot neither win, nor contribute. In the end, they occupied one Hexwraith unit for just long enough, but had my opponent played correctly it would`ve been the opposite: the PG would be occupied at a crucial time, thus denying me their use where they hurt (i.e. against infantry).

I did target the dogs with all I had (shooting), but they just didn`t die. The Terrorgheist: I had to choose between denying the Western Hexwraiths a lucrative position in the middle and keeping the Terrorgheist from screaming at my RBT. I chose the former and this goes to show why the Cavalry should be on the refused flank in this matchup: with Lions near the table edge I can contain the Terrorgheist and have the cavalry deny Hexwraiths. Together, these 2 cases show, in my opinion, the cavalry on the refused flank and lions near the table edge is optimal, getting the PG in the middle, while it is essential for them, is really just the icing on the cake here. The question remains though, does it hold up against this VC list? I intend not to find out unless I meet him in the tournament, in which case I`m hoping the lessons learned will make for a better matchup for me.

It`s interesting to note that from this discussion, I have pretty much started to see the PG in a new light. As you point out, playing the cavalry near the table edge with the Lions holding the refused flank is a very strong position: the Lions are both strong and stubborn so are very, very hard to shift, while M9 cavalry can flank around easily. In the end, I think there are very few matchups where I want to play deployment like I should`ve vs VC, however WL-PG-Cav-Table edge is very strong, I believe. As you`ll see in the next report it didn`t take me long to realize that this is a strong position against more armies than just VC ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:49 am 
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Another good battle report thanks Curu!

I hadn't fully appreciated the rule regarding challenges involving mounts. (Had to get the rulebook out to read that bit to understand the discussion here) That's a good tactic to sacrifice your mage to save the WL's. Simple but effective.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:33 pm 
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Hey Gandalf_082! That is a pretty important rule, one which monster-mounted Lord players learn pretty quickly :D It is a very common phenomenon to have Champions all over the place to help against these kinds of issues. Also it shows why lots of elites benefit from Champions - while HE can easily get Champions in their lists that are fast (e.g. Reavers, Silver Helms), not everyone else with flying monsters can.

Another report coming right up ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:47 pm 
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.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs High Elves (ETC comp) .::.

Time for a rematch! I faced the same player with the same list that I did a week ago. Preferably I`d like to go up against something different, but I need the practice and as I didn`t have a lot of time to prepare a match, I had to take what I could and thus High Elves it was again. I don`t mind playing this matchup at all as I need to learn how to play defensively, however I just know that I need to face more different lists to discover weaknesses in my playstyle (see the VC game for example). While every game is a learning experience, the lessons learned from matchups like these are smaller and thus less significant compared to going up against an entirely new list. Anyways, moving on:

// Lists //

Prince on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance = 163
Heavens Mage, Dispel Scroll = 110
Characters = 871

12 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command = 306
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 125
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
Core = 601

20 White Lions, FC, BOTWD = 340
20 PG, FC, Razor Standard = 375
Special = 715

3 RBT = 210
Rare = 210

Army Total = 2397

His list:

Prince on Star Dragon, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard
BSB Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon
Noble Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Luckstone, Crown of Command
High Mage L2 Steed, Scroll
High Mage L2 Steed

18 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Reavers, bows, Champ
5 Reavers, bows, Champ

4 RBTs
Frostheart Phoenix
Eagle

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

Well I knew what I wanted: light cavalry to block when needed, Lions as anchor, PG central and cavalry wide, flanking. RBTs I wasn`t sure about, would have to see what I could get! Magic saw me grab Iceshard (I rolled Chain Lightning but as he always spaces RBTs 6.5" apart it`s pointless) and he rolled up a pretty amazing range: Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds, Apotheosis and Arcane Unforging. Ouch!

Deployment was good, it was a little awkward with the RBTs as I forgot that shooting large targets, they don`t get cover from intervening units (apart from other large targets). Anyway I was fairly happy. He had 4 exposed RBTs and all the fast stuff on my Lions` flank, far away from the main part of my forces. I forgot to take a deployment photo, and he took first turn due to +1.

// HE(him) T1 //

Everything moves up, Phoenix in front and Star Dragon behind. Magic sees IF Arcane remove my 4++. Shooting kills off the small Helms and 2 Reavers. Panic passed.

Image

// HE(me) T1 //

Lions reform to face the incoming monsters. Prince joins them on the far side. PG move up to support, big Helms wheel up. Magic is 4v3, net result is miasma on the bus if I remember correctly (-3M). Shooting - I send 3 single bolts at the Frostheart and manage 3W.

Image

// HE(him) T2 //

Reavers + SD + Frostheart charge Lions. I pass terror and hold. Stubborn-Noble move up to block me. Magic sees scroll come out to prevent his Frostheart being healed. Shooting kills several big Helms. Panic passed. Combat: Reavers on the West had charged my RBT. Not only does he kill it, but he gets the required box cars to charge the next. In the Dragonfight my Prince wards all Star Lance attacks, courtesy BOTWD. I fail to even hit him (ASL from Frostheart). In return, SD puts 1W on me. I kill Reavers for the champ in return and the Frostie goes down before it can strike. I win combat but Dragon holds on stubborn (BOTWD).

Image

// HE(me) T2 //

Cav charges blocking Eagle. PG move up. I make a mistake as my Reavers are in his Reavers` overrun path, two combat phases ahead. I wanted them to be invisible for his RBTs, but I probably could`ve accomplished both. Magic sees scroll come out, rest is contained as winds are low. Combat: I put 2W on his Star Dragon. He scores 3 hits on my Prince, 3 wounds... I fail all 3 armour saves, but on the second roll three 6`s (!!) come up and the Prince lives with 2W! He passes break test. Reavers win and overrun into yet another RBT.

Image

// HE(him) T3 //

Bus backs up, BSB + mages move out as RBTs are now contained. Magic, I dispel boosted Heal. Can`t remember what else was cast, but nothing significant. Arcane on BSB perhaps (it was cast at some point at least), removing the Dragonhelm. Shooting: central Reavers die. Combat: another 2W on the Star Dragon (it now has 3 left), he fails to wound me in return. 1+ re-rollable is just brutal. He passes break test again.

Image

// HE(me) T3 //

PG move up, Helms move up. Magic: without a scroll I land Miasma on his Dragon (-2WS) and Earthblood (regen + healing Prince by Lifebloom). He dispels Iceshard. I have no shooting and in combat the Prince scores 3W, killing the Dragon before it gets to strike. His Prince breaks, but fatally I fail to catch him. Had the Dragon lived for just one more combat round, the Prince would`ve fled when it had been my turn. Now instead he has a full turn to perform all manner of shenanigans.

Image

// HE(him) T4 //

A mage sacrifices himself for the Prince. Magic - Arcane removes BoH. Shooting: a spectacular round from RBTs kill ALL remaining big Helms AND the BSB. Wow, just wow (they were 8 left and only 1 RBT had a flank shot).

Image

// HE(me) T4 //

I charge the blocking mage. Magic is inefficient, I just don`t have the threats I need with the front-charge on the mage leaving me out of arc to Leech the Prince. In combat I reform to a single rank, super-wide to threaten the Prince.

Image

// HE(him) T5 //

Bus moves up and Prince joins it. Can`t remember magic, but it wasn`t important. He then demonstrates a huge mistake I made in my last turn: by having the Prince on the far edge his flank shots will hit him. I didn`t think bolt throwers worked like this but I hadn`t read their rules well enough. My bad, and my general goes down (despite Earthblood being up and him having 3W).

Image

// HE(me) T5 //

Lions charge bus, which flees. PG move up. Magic - Searing Doom kills 3 Helms. Rest is contained.

Image

After this, he rallies. In the all-important T6, he moves the last mage out to block my PG (he doesn`t want to take any chances) and the BSB joins the bus to provide 2++ vs Spirit Leech. I get a huge 11v6 phase and, crucially, I get Iceshard through. The PG kill the mage in combat, and the bus panics because of Iceshard, despite BSB (one of his rolls were a 10 (!)). Thus, in the last roll of the game, I get a bucketload of points. Counting up he has 1300, while I have 1400. Another 10-10 tie that could easily have been 15-5 either way.

// Evaluation //

Deployment could`ve been tighter on my part with better RBT placement, they`re shooting large targets anyway so I don`t have to place them like I did. This also makes it easier for me to play the Lions really defensively.

Going for the RBTs just seem to be a lost cause. I cannot ever get anything to them! One option is to send big Helms against them and park both characters in units. In this game though even the Helms evaporated really quick. Also if I commit to them too soon, his bus has too much freedom and he can play his super-mobile monsters against them, netting easy points.

I think his T2 move was a little too aggressive. He could`ve played the SD on my flank, flaming the Lions, while the Reavers blocked PG + WL. This would`ve allowed his bus to move up, and his Frostie could`ve eaten an RBT in the meantime. I think this would`ve made for a much harder game for me.

The Prince vs Prince matchup was lucky, in my favour. Magic plays a huge role here. I was lucky to kill the Dragon, he was lucky to escape. Two key decisions shaped the game after this: my charging his mage with the WL (instead of just the Prince) denied me a strong magic phase (though to be fair his Prince only fears spirit leech as he has Dragonhelm) and secondly my charging the bus + Prince instead of moving both infantry units up to box them in T4. As his BSB wasn`t there he would`ve feared both Searing Doom and Spirit Leech. Perhaps this would`ve been a better shot, I don`t know.

The last events in the game was indeed very lucky for me, but it goes to show just how flexible Iceshard Blizzard is: it`s just always such a good spell to have!

Lastly I`d like to note that 5 Reavers with Champions is an interesting configuration and a brilliant one to run alongside a Dragonlord. Duly noted for later!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Quote:
shooting large targets, they don`t get cover from intervening units (apart from other large targets).


are we sure of this? I thought that was an old edition rule?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:21 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Quote:
shooting large targets, they don`t get cover from intervening units (apart from other large targets).


are we sure of this? I thought that was an old edition rule?


Simple Line of Sight wrote:
5. Line of Sight

Next "Simple LoS" will be used:

Terrain pieces are divided into ones that:
- Block LoS: Hills, Buildings and impassable terrain.
- Don't block LoS: all other terrain.

Unit is considered to be in hard cover when:
- majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by an interfering unit or a LoS blocking terrain, as described on page 41 BRB
- unit is garrisoning a Building, as described on page 127 BRB
- unit is defending an obstacle, as described on page 122 BRB
- majority of unit's footprint is in Ruins

Unit is considered to be in soft cover when:
- your models shoot through or into woods, as described on page 119 BRB

Models shooting from hills or buildings don't get the hard cover penalty for shooting through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Units with majority of its footprint on hill do not receive hard cover for being shot at through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Large Targets can't claim cover for obstacles, ruins and interfering units.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:28 pm 
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Oh ETC comp. I missed that.

Your game went ok. A dragon is so hit or miss depending on match-ups...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Oh ETC comp. I missed that.

Your game went ok. A dragon is so hit or miss depending on match-ups...


I think the Dragon-list has the upper hand in this game. Had my opponent waited one turn (not a risky proposition as scroll is still intact) to bring his bus around and flame my Lions in the meantime, I don`t know what I could`ve done. Also I was lucky with those armour saves!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:19 am 
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I think you don't suffer cover penalties to hit large targets in BRB 8th either.

When your lions reformed into a line in combat with the wizard, presumably this a combat reform after concluding the combat (having won it)?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:39 am 
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Yes, it was a combat reform performed after the mage died. The idea was to have the prince solo-charge the bus if they moved up to help. Obviously this was flawed so I should have put him on the other flank.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:33 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
Oh ETC comp. I missed that.

Your game went ok. A dragon is so hit or miss depending on match-ups...


I think the Dragon-list has the upper hand in this game. Had my opponent waited one turn (not a risky proposition as scroll is still intact) to bring his bus around and flame my Lions in the meantime, I don`t know what I could`ve done. Also I was lucky with those armour saves!


I agree. He has shooting advantage also.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:16 pm 
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Yep. I`ve been contemplating a similar list which I`m hoping to playtest after my next tournament (in the meantime I have to spend all my games improving my game with the current list).

---

I arrived a little early at the club yesterday prior to my game, so I spent some time taking some preliminary army shots. A few critical elements are missing out (Reavers miss a model, small helms are done, basing and trays are a complete mess), but it`s better than nothing. Enjoy:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

For more pictures (in particular individual stuff), see the army pictures post on the first page. If you don`t want to look it up yourself, you can hit this link: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=808517#p808517 ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:45 pm 
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This has been a busy week and unfortunately I haven`t had the time to do much Warhammer stuff apart from the game I had on Monday. I`m hoping to make up for it next week for sure! I have a game lined up against Dwarfs and I have a real ace up my sleeve which I can`t believe I haven`t thought of before. Looking forward to this game like a child ;) I`m also hoping to get 1-2 games against other lists, preferably something I haven`t already played. I feel confident going up against most of the lists I`ve played thus far so I`d rather test my list against something new.

While having little time to play, I`ve been contemplating alternative builds which I`m hoping to test out once this tournament is over. There is one in particular I`m very much looking forward to playtest and I`ll be sure to write more about it later on :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:43 pm 
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I never seem to comment here, but I'm always looking forward to the next reports! :D

It's also great to see the army photos. That red is very effective.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:22 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I have a game lined up against Dwarfs and I have a real ace up my sleeve which I can`t believe I haven`t thought of before. Looking forward to this game like a child ;)


You keep mentioning this ace and I'm getting nervous about it. Therefore I've decided to believe it is just psychological warfare and nothing for me to worry about :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:48 pm 
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@solith - Thanks, good to know :) Please leave some feedback as well, if you have any ;)

@Strange - We`ll see how it plays out :D

BR coming up, had a game vs Empire today!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:37 pm 
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.::. Battle Report - 2400 vs Empire (ETC comp) .::.

// Lists //

Prince on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon = 268
Loremaster of Hoeth, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation = 330
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster`s Shard, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance = 163
Heavens Mage, Dispel Scroll = 110
Characters = 871

12 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command = 306
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician = 125
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85
Core = 601

20 White Lions, FC, BOTWD = 340
20 PG, FC, Razor Standard = 375
Special = 715

3 RBT = 210
Rare = 210

Army Total = 2397

Empire:
L4 Wizard Lord, 5++, Heavens, Scepter of Stability
Arch Lector on barded horsie, 1+, 4++, crown of stubborn
L1 Wizard, scroll, Heavens
Captain, magic weapon, 2++ fire, 1+
Captain BSB, pegasus, 1+ re-rollable

11 IC Knights, FC
20 + 10 Archers

4 Demis
6 Demis
STank
Great Cannon

// Pre-battle thoughts and deployment //

By now I`ve had a few games against Empire and I`m confident in my list`s ability to handle them. In most matchups, isolating demis is key to winning as they`re virtually the only thing causing enough damage to hurt me. Demis + IC Knights into Lions at the same time is disastrous so must be avoided at all costs. Demis into PG can be ugly, but PG are usually fine vs IC Knights. His magic can be nasty, but the Loremaster is terrible for him to face with virtually half my spells being disastrous for him.

Deployment gave me a big impassable. Perfect to force his demis through and give my cavalry some space. After some deliberation I decided to place the PG outside gen/BSB bubble as his IC Knights went down quickly. While a bit risky, I didn`t see it as likely for him to cause panic in any way for them so I was fine with this.

I got the RBTs in a very good pattern where it was pretty much impossible for him to dodge a flank shot (provided they stayed alive). I even managed to deploy one of them to get a flank shot on his big demis (with BSB on the end towards me!!) if I got T1. I learned last game how brutal this can be, and getting first turn here could be truly significant: killing the BSB right off the bat is, admittedly, a long shot, but if it works it`s just perfect.

Image

One RBT is deloyed in the very corner, outside of the photo. The weird-looking unit angled towards the center is my 5 Helms, whom I had forgotten at home and thus had to use heavy unit fillers for.

Image

The RBT with T1 flankshot opportunities.

Magic saw his L4 get Harmonic, Comet, Chain Lightning, Iceshard. Both our L1s chose Iceshard.

As we rolled for first turn I was eager to get that RBT shot off. Sadly, it never happened as the Humans seized the initiative.

// Emp T1 //

The East Reavers didn`t receive a charge, instead the Demis moved up to right in front of them instead. The center advanced with the STank moving towards an RBT. Magic was low and the result was Convergence on big Demis.

Shooting took out an RBT.

Image

// HE T1 //

I can`t move out and face him. Despite the STank and Cannon firing away, I need to use the terrain to my advance and hope Searing Doom + Spirit Leech can help me out. Thus, I back everything 3" apart from small Helms (who are on Wizard-hunting duty), and Western Reavers (who taunt the STank).

Magic however is not cooperating. I get big winds, but roll abysmally. Spirit Leech and Searing Doom are both dispelled without a scroll (despite me using 8D6!). I land Iceshard on his Cannon but eat a Miscast. I`m lucky to catch a fairly insignificant result and I finish the phase off with a 1D6 Miasma on big demis, reducing M by 2.

Shooting sees the corner-RBT land a flank shot on the Demis, killing one and hurting another with 2W. The other misses. Reavers manage to land a wound on the STank!

Image

// Emp T2 //

IC Knights and big demis keep moving up, small demis have to stay behind and reform to protect flank from small Helms. STank doesn`t take the Reaver bait. Magic, Iceshard on Lions, Convergence on big Demis. I dispel Comet with dice. Shooting - both RBTs go down.

Image

// HE T2 //

This is my chance to commit in a passive manner - perfect! I move Lions up, Reavers block IC Knights and PG stand behind. Helms move to outside of small Demis` front arc, while the big ones can`t reach them because of the impassable. The small Helms continue their long journey towards the L4 by moving to the very corner of the table, forcing small Demis to roll box cars to complete their charge, should they wish to.

Magic sees his scroll come out, phew! Shooting does nothing.

Image

// Emp T3 //

IC Knights charge Reavers, I hold. Big Demis charge Lions, I hold. Eat that S6, Humans!

Magic sees my scroll come out, which is crucial to prevent that brutal Iceshard from landing on my Lions. Shooting sees Cannon + STank try and snipe my characters but LoS! rolls are passed and only a couple of Helms bite the dust. I think the Cannon blew itself up here as well.

Combat: Reavers kill the Champ from IC Knights and die. He overruns into PG. Lions and Demis trade quite a few wounds. Can`t remember if he won and I stood on stubborn or if I won by a small margin.

Image

// HE T3 //

Silver Helms counter-charge to help the Lions. With 9+ I can reach the IC Knights on an overrun as well. Small Helms continue their long journey while the Western Reavers take advantage of the fact that the lake is impassable to the STank and can catch up, hopefully redirecting it if need be before the battle is over.

Magic is 4+2, but he rolls two 6`s for channels. I roll low and can`t get a single spell through.

In combat the "big" Demis aren´t so big any longer as they all die, leaving the BSB alone. He needs snake eyes and fails. I overrun with Helms but fail the 9+ required, the Lions reform to face the IC Knights. PG fare ok, I lose but I`m steadfast so hold, easily.

Image

// Emp T4 //

Remaining Demis reform to face my units. Wizard Lord`s bunker reform to force me through ruins (dangerous terrain on 1s and 2s) if I want to charge him. Magic sees Iceshard land on the Helms and Convergence on IC Knights. In combat I am lucky to maintain steadfast (I was very close to losing it!) and the PG hold on.

Image

// HE T4 //

Big Helms + Lions charge IC Knights. Small Helms charge Wizard Lord`s bunker. One dies to dangerous terrain. Being only 4 prior to this, I need to take a panic test, which I luckily pass.

Magic is again useless as I fail to roll anything but 1s and 2s for both winds and casts: I think the phase was 4v2 but I failed to cast anything.

Combat: IC Knights die horribly but the Archlector survives. Thus they are stubborn, thus I have to face Demi`s rear-charging me. The small Helms however get a couple of casualties for none in return. Being Skirmishers the Archers don`t get any ranks and lose badly. They break, I catch them and the magical offense is gone!

Image

// Emp T5 //

STank charges small Helms. Demis charge big Helms. Magic is contained as his L4 is gone. Shooting is non-existant. In combat his Demis ensures a small win as his Archlector passes 8/8 saves vs S6 attacks and is thus stubborn. I pass all break tests.

Image

// HE T5 //

Reavers block the STank, keeping it away from that vital central combat for his last turn.

I`m really hoping magic can help me here as I`ve had terrible phases so far this game. I get a huge roll, 11v6 or something like that, but alas it`s to little help: Wyssan`s on Helms is dispelled on 4v4 D6, Miasma is let through but I fail to roll the 5+ needed to bring him to WS1 (thus needing 5s to hit me), Iceshard is dispelled on 3v2 (!!) D6 and I fail to cast my last spell.

In combat the Archlector finally goes down. The Demis however strike true and I lose combat by 3. I`m testing on LD7 re-rollable which I fail. Adding insult to injury, the Demis catch me. Yes, that`s 4 Demigryphs getting ~900 victory points. He overruns into WLs.

Image

After this it`s pretty much down to Lions vs Demis. He can`t assist them magically as I dispel his one attempt. However a combat reform sees my PG unable to counter-charge him as I lose the roll-off. In my last turn I get a big phase again and go 5D6 Wyssan`s, an abysmal total of 12 after BoH re-roll and the bonus. He dispels it. I cast Iceshard on him, which goes through, then fail Miasma on 1D6. In combat, I pass my fear test but he rolls a LOT of saves. In return he kills a few and I lose. Luckily I pass my LD9 stubborn break test and the game is over.

A truly bloody battle with but a fraction of my forces remaining. However, the Loremaster + PG + WL are worth a LOT of points so I`m hoping I`m still ahead. Counting up, I`m right in my assumptions and it`s roughly a 400 VP difference in my favour, a 12-8 win to the High Elves!.

// Evaluation //

Strategy worked well. Losing the RBTs so early was a pain, they would truly have been a pain for him given their positions (see the HE T3 photo for example). Losing T1 also doesn`t help in this matchup, landing those shots and magic missiles early on can be devastating. Luckily I managed to work around this and, crucially, isolating the big Demis paid off big time.

Magic has never been as bad as it was for me this game while I`ve played the BoH Loremaster. I had so many phases where I couldn`t get anything critical through. It`s important to note that every once in a while, this will happen and I have to know how to play without the tremendous magical support I`m used to. Indeed, this game was going pretty well for me until the big Helms failed their break test.

Speaking of which, many will read this and consider it bad luck. True, you have a ~80% chance of passing such a test. However, I scored big points in my last game because my opponent failed a re-rollable LD9 test. That`s just how Warhammer is. When you`re far behind, you have to take risks to try and get back in the game. My opponent did so in this game and it paid off. Kudos to him for that. The question thus becomes, was the Silver Helms` position ideal in the first place, i.e. was there something I could`ve done to avoid the situation entirely? This photo provides an interesting basis for discussion:

Image

So the PG are down to 10. The WL are ~16 strong and have a flank charge on the IC Knights. With only S4 and no stomps, these guys don`t really hurt that much. What I`m saying here is that WL + PG is enough to win this fight reliably, especially considering the magical support I can (normally) rely on. The question then becomes whether my Silver Helms can do something more useful here than helping out as well. Indeed I considered charging the STank for some time, but decided against it since it has 7W left. On T6, 1+ this could potentially tarpit me for longer than I`m comfortable with.

I haven`t looked at this situation thoroughly enough yet to know what the optimal move is, but I know that my decision here was what cost me the Helms. Perhaps this was a risk worth taking? Indeed, had I passed the test I would´ve counter-charged with Lions, Make Way! on the Prince and likely beat him big time, which would mean 18-2 or even more in my favour. What do you think?

As always, thanks for reading :) I`m looking forward to reading your thoughts on this game!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:06 am 
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hi curu,

thanks for the report, great read.

regarding the helms dilemma, without actually seeing the table in person...
I also cant see the position of the stubborn character but... if the prince is not in a position to attack him this is what I would do....

a lot of ifs and buts :lol: but...

helmbus to charge the IC knights, reavers block steam tank, lions do a reform as necessary to cover the helms rear.
all helm, prince, BSB and PG attacks go onto the IC knights(7 left). should destroy them, archlector becomes a separate unit.
helmbus out of contact, reform to aid lions next turn.
just need one lion to survive demi charge & pass their rerollable stubborn test.
lions die on empire turn, helm bus charges & smashes demis
that's an extra 550 + the demis points in your pocket

or do I have it wrong that the archlector reverts to his own unit separate unit?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:22 pm
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Location: Warsaw, Poland
Great report, thoroughly enjoyable! The size of those Demigryph units was intimidating but you handled them well. "Committing in a passive manner" is a nice expression for the kind of tactic our ASF allows for. Pity the countercharge with the Helm Bus didn't go exactly as plan, but you managed to get the win regardless so a big congrats! =D>

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cheers, Lee

Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy


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