Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:57 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:26 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Stormie wrote:
That's a horrific Daemon list to play against, yuuk. Hope to see games 2 and 3 posted soon!

Thanks Stormie!

:)

I look forward to reaming lists like that when the new book hits.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:24 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Looking back on the Lizardman game I don't feel I could have played it much better. Yes, the Cascade helped but when the opponent six-dices for fun and draws your scroll he is sailing a bit close to the wind. Just one of the dice rolls going better would have resulted in the destruction of the Krox and a heavy win. Sometimes it just happens I guess.

Cavalry

I am still very, very pleased with these. In the Daemon game they got me almost all my points and really made my opponent think. As mentioned, they should have won me game 2. In game three I got a bit unlucky with them but there is not much I can do about that. Basically I love the playstyle and will continue to run them. The good news is that with the likely addition of ASF in the forthcoming army book and the possible one of a true 5+ Ward, they will very likely be getting stronger!

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 235
Location: oxfordshire, albion
When you say you had positioned eternal guard 5 inches away from the krox do you mean 5 plus movement value inches?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:40 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Yep, my bad, really 10 inches.

So rolling a 4 plus my 5" move really wasn't called for....

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:48 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
A Rock and a Hard Place

Game 3 - Orcs and Goblins

I rate this opponent as about the same level as myself. He had:

Warboss on Wyvern
Orc Lvl4
Black Orc BSB
Goblin lvl2
3 Goblins on Wolves

40 Savage Orc Big'uns
30 Common Goblins (3 Nasty Skulkers)
5 Wolf Riders, Std.

2 Rock Lobbers
2 Doom Divers
2 Mangler Squigs

8 Trolls

So missing some of the standard kit (Lucky Shrunken Head etc.) and with a couple of unusual choices but not that far out.

My opponent lined up his war machines fairly centrally on his baseline. The Wolf Bosses were deployed left and right to block off approach routes for WM hunters. He had the Wyvern Lord on my left, Wolf Rider unit, then Savages with Lvl4 and BSB, Manglers (Trolls behind these), Goblins. I dropped an eagle far left, then Treekin (an early drop which I later regretted), Cavalry behind these. Then Treeman, small archers (Eternal Guard with characters behind these), big archers, Dryads, Waywatchers, eagle.

My opponent won first turn and pushed all the fighting units forwards. One mangler got very close and not trusting my magic to help the shooting out, sacrificed the Dryads to remove it. I then managed to shoot the second one off. On my right I tried to get to the war machines with the 'watchers and eagle but the former were shot up by a doom diver and the latter kept honest by the defensive gobbo heroes. Now my opponent was getting close in the centre, so I shot the Trolls a bit and backed off. My opponent threw his Wyvern into the Treekin. Then a disaster. He landed a rock straight on the Stag Lord's head, wounded and I failed the 3+ Ward. Four wounds killed him outright. The Wyvern rider ate the Treekin. Bad times.

I had to do something, so declared a triple charge of Treeman, small archers (they were blocking the EG and the combat res they'd give up wouldn't hurt the Stubborn stuff) and EG on the Savages. These last failed to make it in again, so the savages ate the archers and the Treeman stuck. My opponent then teleported the Trolls behind the EG, I was struggling to contain his magic. The Wyvern was busy chasing down the remnants of the Treekin. Meanwhile the EG reformed and took on a slowly losing combat vs the Trolls (should have taken my Flaming BSB!). The Treeman however (who I'd managed to Wildform) started to show. He killed the BSB in one combat round. Then the Lvl4. Then he started eating the unit, finally winning combat to end the Frenzy, though the Orcs held.

The Trolls lost a lot of models but finished by killing all the EG. I just about held the characters on one wound each (there had been much vomiting!). When we counted up I was delighted to find that I'd only lost:

7-13

Except that I hadn't. Both of us clean forgot that we were playing a modified (800pt) Blood and Glory (first two games were Battle Line). I realised much later and set the record straight on TWF, apologising. Losing the General was pretty much terminal, the real result was:

2-18. Bugger.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:03 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
It's interesting to note that had the first game been modified Blood and Glory it would have made no difference at all, while the second would have finished a draw! What can you do? A roughly 1-in-12 chance of losing the Lord to the rock but a very costly game for it to happen in. I was pleased to at least go down fighting and not get 20-0'd again.

Big Trees

These three games taught me a lot about the Treekin and Treeman. The former are great as an MSU support unit when I have a mobility advantage. So they worked well up until the epic dice fail in game 2. In games one and three though they were simply prey to big flyers. Sure I could have used them better but lacking a reliable way to threaten the flappy monsters it was difficult. Should they stay? I'm not sure.

The Treeman on the other hand really suffered in game one where there were just too many Flaming ways for him to die. But in game two he did a great job grinding down the Saurus. In game three he really went to town and totally neutralised the Savage Orcs, clawing me back some points in the process. So where the enemy has infantry, he is extremely useful. I still feel he is a key part of the army, albeit his usefulness varies depending on match-up.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:48 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Conclusion

So not great overall. You can imagine how I felt on realising I'd actually lost the third game 2-18. But analysing how the games went and what I did right and wrong is very useful. I did not play brilliantly overall but there was serious bad luck there too and some things were very positive.

Before the event I'd suspected I needed more archers to put pressure on at range and this was borne out. But there are limits to what you can achieve with 15" S4 archery and against armies like WoC and 1+ AS Empire for example, too many archers are a liability. If I do re-jig the list it's possible will drop the Treekin for more archers. But then I lose the cannon screening potential and a useful support to my EG. The Dryads did well overall so they are staying. Plus the Waywatcher KB of the Blue Scribes was very satisfying!

But as I get to play infrequently, it's likely that the new army book will be out before that happens again. It seems very likely that the elves will get ASF, given that Dark Elves have. Some WE players have questioned the usefulness of this as they see the Forest Spirits as the combat workhorses of the book. But for an army like mine, built around fighting elves, it will be a mighty shot in the arm! A S bonus to the EG, a decent WE Lore, true Wards, all would be great. But what matters most is gaining reliable high strength ranged attacks. A souped-up Bow of Loren would be a good start.

And now, we wait....

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:27 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7798
Location: Queensland, Australia
SpellArcher, I look forward to what you do when you get a new book, I'll be starting Asrai when the book drops, and I really like how many elves you have in your force.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:10 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Thanks mate.

As said I think this style of list could be a big winner from the elf-only buffs. I love my Treeman but he is definitely support.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:56 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Wild Speculation

Normally, I don't even post an army list before I use it, let alone try to guess what's in an army book we know nothing about! But given that we do have a few clues from the Dark Elf book and in the hope of stimulating some debate, I'm going to toy with some predictions. As follows:

Nailed On

ASF
+1 to cast WE Lore
Prowess Rule

As we have seen both elf books in 8th edition feature ASF for all elves, I feel it's very likely the WE book will too. What are the implications of this? It doesn't help Tree Spirits and while archers etc will be pleased to have it rather than not, it's not huge for them. But when you have an army based around Wild Riders (I fancy they'll get it but not certain as they are currently Forest Spirits) and Eternal Guard it will be very useful indeed. Even with the generally high elf initiative, it's really, really good to reliably strike before the majority of what's out there. Because of that initiative they'll usually be re-rolling too which means that dice disasters like the Lizardman summary I posted go from unlikely to 'you must be joking'. I hardly need to tell HE players about the reliability ASF brings to the table. Plus of course, other elves will no longer be re-rolling against them, so defensively it's very handy. Best of all is on characters I feel. My warlord would love ASF, simply love it. There's a strong case that the combat units are just not strong enough for my current list to cut it. ASF could be the decisive factor in changing this.

Both the elf books already published have a specialist Lore, which their mages are at +1 to cast. I feel this will be continued into the WE book. WE players are as a rule, extremely unhappy with their Lore and I must admit, my army currently needs Lore of Beasts too much on the main caster and can't afford a second one. Likely buffs to the combat units and/or the possibility of taking Beasts on a hero-level mage would make the WE Lore a real possibility on the lvl3/4. +1 to cast and some decent spells could be key in changing the army from perennial strugglers in the magic phase to something quite tasty.

Again, we've seen a 'Prowess' rule in both elf books so far. It's possible that the WE one will be simply Quick to Fire, as an 8th edition adaptation of their current Asrai Archery rule. But it's equally likely that there will be some new rule instead of or in addition to this. Re-rolling 1's to hit when shooting has been suggested but no-one really knows. Both of these would of course be very helpful to almost any army, given the proliferation of longbows.

Could Be's

True Wards
All Lores

A lot of players seem to regard the Forest Spirits getting true Wards (ie not negated by Magical attacks as currently) as a given. I'm not so sure. I feel it's quite possible but there is no cut and dried reason it has to happen. It would of course make them generally stronger, especially against armies like Daemons which are currently a very difficult match-up. But the difference between no Ward and a conditional one is much bigger than that between conditional and true. The Wards are generally useful already and units like Wild Riders can fall back on things like Talismanic Tattoos against Magical attacks. What might be interesting is the ability of units like Wild Riders to stack Magic Resistance on top of the true Ward, making them very resistant to spells.

Again many players feel that WE's will get access to all book Lores, in line with HE and DE. I really hope this doesn't happen. WE's should be able to match those in magic (IMHO) but only in certain areas. Personally, I'd be really happy to simply get access to Beasts and Life on hero-level casters plus the souped-up WE Lore I mentioned earlier. A third, powerful option, plus more flexibility on the support caster would give WE players a lot of potential IMHO, especially if magic items and/or spites are kind.

to be continued, comments welcome...

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:29 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Interesting speculation, of course nothing substantial yet but have some patience and we`ll see ;)

I think the army will be roughly as follows:

- ASF across the Elf board
- True Ward and buff to forest spirits (they are just plain weak now)
- Quick to Fire across the archery board
- Access to all lores
- New monster in dual-pack with Treeman. Could be good (like Frostheart), could be bad (like DE ones)

Apart from that, it`s hard to say. When the last WE book came they were super-powerful but it hinged so much on the main rules (i.e. 7th ed). I hope they manage to make WE interesting again.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:51 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
The problem I see with Forest Spirits is they are strong in the wrong match-ups. Treemen are fantastic where the enemy doesn't have high strength Flaming attacks. But if he does (Daemons, Dwarfs) they are awful. Treekin are good against slow armies but vs cav buses and big flyers they are toast. Even the true Ward will not fix that completely but I can't imagine what else can be done.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:04 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi SpellArcher,

It is indeed very hard to predict what new WE are going to be like. Until the releases of Dwarves one could think there is a pattern in the way new releases are organized but then we saw that it does not have to be the case.

For me, in the case of WE, the main thing I am very curious about are the models. I expect old metals to be replaced. So new wardancers, waywatchers (even if I like the old ones anyway), wild riders, treekin etc.? If they were just to replace metal models they would generate enough boxes to attract a lot of attention. And WE tend to look really cool so I can't wait to see what they are going to have.

We can of course expect totally new things. The question is if they are going to be more like in the case of Dwarves, where they simply got gyros and irondrakes or maybe there will be more of totally new units? With WE the opportunities are infinite. Even harder to predict what may come without starting wish listing.

I also wonder if we can expect some kind of change in the way WE look. I mean, they will still look like WE but example of Dwarves show that it is reasonable to expect that new models might not necessarily be easily combined with old ones. Even if you have them in two separate units but standing to each other you may see they don't quite match.

In general, model wise, I expect that new WE would do great with just replacement of many of their units that are currently in metal, with possibility of adding a thing or two that are totally new. But the more the better!

In terms of new rules it is not easy either. Yes, I think it is safe bet to assume they are going to have ASF and some kind of prowess might be there too. ASF would be great for wardancers, riders and guard for sure. It may not change much against tougher opponents who sport a lot of armour as all HE players know. No matter how many hits your spears have it is the problem of wounding on 5+ and going through 1+ armour that is the challenge. But it is going to be helpful indeed. Assuming wardancers are going to keep their dances it means that chances for KB are greater, for example. I would welcome that change only to encourage some more combat orientated units in WE armies and using them in more aggressive manner rather than counter charge roles.

The prowess is also speculated to add to the archery. I think we can expect some kind of improvement in that regard of course. I mean in comparison to other elves. Would that mean, however, that WE are going to keep their S4 at short range? And no movement penalties for shooting? That remains to be seen. If that were the case then re-rolls to 1's for hitting with arrows may further encourage people to field all glade guard armies. And that makes me wonder. Many WE players already have enough GG to field such armies. Further improvement of the archery may not result in them buying more models. Even more so if they are not going to redo the core units and usually they don't. GG have fantastic models anyway. Would they want to add a rule that does not result in more models sold?

I think making Forest Spirits to have typical ward save is easy way to do but may actually work. You have a mixture of fast but fragile and slow but resilient troops. That creates lots of options from going from all Spirit army to all Elves army and anything in between. it may not be the best and definitely not the most creative solution but I think it would work well. In fact, I think it is the most probable as it does not take a lot of effort to create better effect. So why not do it?

More challenging is how to make WE a mobile force that it used to be before they changed rules for skirmishers. They may keep the skirmishers as they are and I am sure people would use dryads with all around 5++. But they use them already so again, who would buy new models? Unless, of course, they created new dryads that are absolutely stunning and everybody will need to buy them just to have them. Making elven steeds fast cavalry, also for characters, as DE have it, is another easy solution. Wild riders, benefiting from 5++ and ASF can be very good mobile and aggressive unit. But how to make them work well again? When you don't have previous mobility of skirmishers and no option to break steadfast? Maybe more attacks per models? Some units gained that. Even hammerers got more attacks. Would they get something similar to Sisters of Slaughter? That would be handy indeed.

Another expected change is of course WE magic. It will be changed as all lores were. There will be lore attribute. They may receive +1 bonus to cast. Apart from that it is again guessing. Maybe some healing spell? Something has to be connected to forest of course. But has to be different from both life and beast lores. The lore attribute is actually very intriguing. Maybe some area spells too?

I just hope they rumour about their release in May is going to be true!

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:10 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
I haven't touched on the subject of new models much yet SM. Partly because I use very old ones and the current stuff just doesn't go with it. I have armies of both High and Wood elves and tend to mix and match, cannibalise and convert stuff from one to the other when I change my lists. But of course new models often mean new rules and new units and from that point of view I am very interested! I will discuss what I think might be coming a bit later, probably a new unit or two. Some of the metal might stay but yes probably some will be replaced.

Armour is a problem for WE's but even in the current book there are tools to deal with it. My Stag Lord, backed by the S5 attacks of the Riders for example. The Eternal Guard, with Razor banner and Wildform are S4 AP and the sheer number of attacks will cause problems for even 1+ AS. Add ASF to these units and those mid-strength hits are hitting much more reliably, enough to take down MC etc.. Lore of Beasts is of course very important here. Plus the tree spirits have fairly consistent S5/6 attacks. The biggest problem is that the ranged attacks are pretty much capped at S4 (crucially not AP) and that has bad implications for board control. If the tree spirits for example were faster that would help but M5 without Swiftstride is just not enough to get them where they need to be. This is the strength of the Wild Riders.

When I started playing WE's, block infantry were a key part of the army, the shift towards the 'guerilla style' came later, so I have always been a bit old-fashioned here. My army has no problem dealing with Steadfast because of the Treeman and the Eternal Guard. Even MSU lists have answers to it, the bowline simply diverts and shoots the blocks to death. Combat MSU whittles them down then flank charges them. The main problem for WE msu at present is fast armour I would say. Just as the main problem for tree-heavy lists is Flaming cannon. The latter is difficult to fix. The army as a whole really needs a better way of dealing with tough targets at range.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:42 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Could Be's (continued)

One last possibility is that hero-level casters get access to WE magic, Beasts and Life. Lord casters get all 8 book Lores. I could live with that! Might be a nice touch, considering that in the old days lvl4's got access to High Magic.

:)

Eternal Guard Changes
Bow of Loren +
Kindreds

As said, it seems pretty clear that EG will be getting ASF, which is obviously a big boost to their combat potential. Many on Asrai have suggested that their current Bodyguard rule (Stubborn if a fighting character in the unit) could simply become Stubborn. Less likely but possible is that they will get +1S from their weapon, the Saerath. This would at a stroke relieve the need to Wildform them every five minutes. At the moment EG are Special but become Core if a fighting lord leads the army. I suspect they will simply become Core, as 8th edition books tend to have around 5 options here and EG are a logical shift-over. The question then would be if they would retain the 50pt magic banner allowance essential to take the Razor standard. I believe Witch Elves have this, which gives me hope.

Fifteen years ago I concluded that a major disadvantage playing Wood Elves compared to High Elves, was the lack of RBT. I don't think this has changed. Really, this is what prevents Wood Elves from being a true Combined Arms army IMHO. As mentioned above, the lack of high strength ranged attacks is a big problem. The obvious place to look for these would be a revamped Bow of Loren. There might even be another magic item that helps here or more likely perhaps something from the Spite allowance. Amber Spear is a very useful tool to cover this weakness but it's just one spell, it's not that reliable. The new WE lore or access to book lores might help a lot here.

So what will they do with the Kindreds? Given the way the other elf books are it seems likely that these will be replaced with specific character choices. For example, the White Dwarf update lists in 6th edition (before the current army book) featured a Wardancer hero-level character. TBH I would prefer it that way. There are implications though, for my army. A stag-rider character might be a Lord choice or he might be a Hero, the latter would be a big problem as he just wouldn't have the magic item allowance (or the stats) to lead the line like the Lord. It's also possible the Stag will simply be a mount option. But how the Forest Sprit rules would work with that I don't know. A further problem for the Stag Lord is the likely loss of a 3+ Ward. It's in the DE book, I don't think they'll repeat themselves. However, he might get access to Charmed Shield or another magic item or Spite option that mitigates his vulnerability to cannon.

Possible

It's been postulated on Asrai that a new unit of Priests of Kurnous, riding either horses or Stags could be on the way. I think it unlikely that these would work like Doomfire Warlocks as has been suggested there. Again, too much repetition. The problem with new units is we simply don't know what mechanics GW will dream up to make them work (or not work).

At present, most things in the WE book seem overcosted. The cheapest model is 12 points. TBH I can't see the prices for infantry changing that much, given that they are generally overpriced in 8th edition books and the elves will be getting ASF. Will the big trees for example get cheaper? Perhaps not if the true Wards show up. I'm sure though, that characters like the lord-level caster will be brought in line with other elf lords.

One thing I have high hopes for is the Spite allowance. High Elves got lucky, in that despite lacking back-up abilities like these, their actual magic items were superb. Spites (I suspect they will stay) are a nice back up for the WE book and we may see some real gems in there. In particular they might give a second shot at a decent magic phase if the Arcane Item(s) turn out to be too defensive or just bad. A reliable boost to magic offense is pretty much essential.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:43 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi SA,

All what you have written about WE simply shows how complex army book they have. They are very unique in their style and things they developed for them over the years are huge. No wonder it is a hard task and no wonder it is also difficult to predict even things like if particular rules are going to be updated or simply discarded. Spites, kindreds, army wide special rules, army specific magic, army specific items, the list goes on and on.

Without going into too much details and accidentally starting wish listing I can only say that I keep fingers crossed for an army list that will bring back their unique flavour to the game and that they will have enough choices for different army lists. I think HE are great at the moment because they still allow for huge variety of army lists. DE develop theirs at the moment but you can tell they have different options at their disposal too. WE deserve that too for sure!

This army has a great potential for both, game designer and miniature sculptor. Can't wait to see which direction they will go for!

In terms of speculations and drawing comparisons it is a treacherous path. While it is reasonable to agree that they may get ASF since other elves did, expecting equivalent of units in other elven books is probably too much. I would rather bet my money on new character, since HE got a Loremaster, a Sea Helm and a Handmaiden while DE got a Beastmaster but what kind of character it is going to be (if at all!) that is hard to tell. The same goes with new unit type. There will be something, because they want to sell new models but what? All I can say is that it may be reasonable to expect unexpected :)

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:33 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Quite right SM, much of the new book will not have been predicted by anyone. But I feel Spites are likely (not certain) to stay because all similar tailoring options stayed in other 8th edition books. Again, these distinctive characters like Fleetmaster, Anointed etc. appear in many books so I suspect Kindreds (which I never felt gave enough flavour) will go.

TBH I don't think there's that much to choose between the various WE builds at the moment, they all have some really bad match-ups, the problem is that the book is generally weak. I don't think flavour is a problem, the army is great to play. In contrast I was slightly disappointed with the HE book because if you want to have strong magic you have to take the Book (barring Special Characters), the magic banner is fantastic against some things but useless against others etc.. The tailoring options are more limited than they used to be.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:11 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi SpellArcher,

It will be very interesting to see which way they might go. I agree that out of two Kindreds may be transformed into new character types. While Spites may be Dwarven runes equivalent. On the other hand we used to be sure Honours would stay and they didn't. But it was of course different edition.

I agree about our book in terms of some options to tailor the given choices. Single Arcane Item for example is a disappointment. Making it insanely good is also bad idea as it is really hard to leave home without it. Matt Ward was never really creative. What we gained though, in terms of ability to tailor the army list is huge amount of unit choices and characters. That allows for different styles for sure.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:26 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
That's very true SM, there's a lot more flexibility in the units themselves, a little like O&G I guess.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:22 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi SA,

How do you like the rumours about new double kit boxes that apparently are going to be released?

I definitely like the idea of wardancers/"beastmasters" and I am very curious to see what both units can do. It is quite intriguing about the box which allows you to make warhawk riders or two separate units of owls and waywatchers. That has not been done before. I am less intrigued by the treeman dual box but then they might make it look ridiculously good so it can be great too!

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:50 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Yes SM, I like the idea of the animal-skin unit very much!

The reason I first chose WE's over HE's many years ago was the variety with things like the Treeman, Wardancers and Beastmasters. The latter had very characterful models which I still possess. When the current book came out, everybody took an Alter Kindred because he was effective. But he was usually just represented by an elf with a great weapon. The new unit sounds more flavoursome.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:45 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Do you consider WE or HE your primary archer now, SA? Which do you think you`ll be playing in the months to come, assuming the new WE book is released in May?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:31 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
Curu, ever since I stopped playing Dark Elves in 1990 (hey, I was a kid!). I've never been able to decide between WE's and HE's. I love both and my ideal army woul be a hybrid of the two. The reason I switched a year ago is I couldn't see a way to play my HE army the way I wanted to play it. In contrast I had a WE playstyle that had not been investigated properly on Asrai for example and wanted to try it out.

I've pretty much concluded that my WE army needs the coming changes to work. But who knows what they will be? If they let me play my army in a way I like I'll probably stick with it. If not, I'll be back playing HE's. For some reason I always seem to end playing underpowered armies or lists! But if the vibe of the new book is good, I'll be using it and it could be very strong indeed.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:06 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
1990, huh? Wow that`s a long time ^^ If you want to play the underdog, why doesn`t the current HE book allow you to play the way you want to? As far as unit choices are concerned I don`t see what we could do with our last book that we cannot do now.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:36 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
I have no aversion to playing strong lists Curu. Asrai is full of guys like that and I am not one! It's just that the models I have available and the styles I simply like to play are not always conducive to powerful armies. The WE book may allow me to do that.

I just found it difficult to transfer my army to the new book. I love my Spears, I preferred the old High Magic, I dislike items like World Dragon. If the WE book doesn't suit me though I will find a way past these things.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:59 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Spears as a unit haven`t changed at all since our last book, have they? Overall our units have dropped in points, you could probably squeeze in more in the Lords department now than you could earlier if I`m not mistaken? The old High Magic was indeed very different, but was it crucial to how your list played, i.e. is there no way to work around this? BOTWD you can simply leave at home ;) We didn`t have it previously so it`s not like your list "lost" it. I think you should try creating a roster and get a couple of games going, I think you`ll be pleasantly surprised by some of the things we gained even though we lost a whole lot as well ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:41 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
I agree Spears haven't changed Curu but everything else has, making them less attractive. I would still run them though, there are uses. I'm not saying I would never use World Dragon but if you want a block of Lions or Swords it's hard to see past it. Before you could construct a strong magic phase with solo High Archmage plus Banner of Sorcery. I've tried Beasts for example and it just doesn't carry the same threat. Overall I think the new book is just stronger though.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:53 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
True, Lions and Swords are pretty much useless without BOTWD now, which is unfortunate indeed. I think you could make something work if you`re willing to include the BOTWD though, an L4 Shadow Archmage with Book can easily holds his own next to a chariot prince. Spears in core aren`t terrible here either! I don`t remember the rest of your HE list but this is a fairly sound basis if you want to field the chariot prince and you can add to taste whatever you feel like, going either melee-heavy, shooty heavy or a mix :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:06 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12583
Location: Otherworld
I wondered about Swords with the High Archmage maybe getting by without World Dragon. But I just don't like the spells of the new Lore. Never been a huge fan of Shadow. I know it's powerful but I think it needs other Lore support. I looked at Life for the Swordmasters. Metal's interesting but it doesn't help the SM 's enough.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Baptism of Fire
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:10 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I guess it depends on what "powerlevel" you`re comfortable playing. I still believe that your "old" list can be replicated, if not even improved, by the new book. I really think Swords/Lions without BOTWD is a suicide mission, there are so many nasty templates out there it`s a joke, really. Also, even with High Magic there`s the chance of snake eyes, a scroll ruining your day or simply losing first turn and getting shot to bits before you can move.

What about L4 Heavens? :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group