Baptism of Fire

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SpellArcher
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#91 Post by SpellArcher »

By the end of the old book my list was pretty decent. Not the strongest but it had some teeth. W/L ratio was about 2/1. The magic, the shooting, the elite infantry were just more threatening than anything my WE army can muster except the cavalry. The new book will hopefully offer better tools. I need a good look at it. I really like the horse and the way they let you play. It kind of feels like unfinished business to make the build work.

If I hate the book, I'll consider Heavens.
SpellArcher
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#92 Post by SpellArcher »

NEW BOOK

Bottom line? I like it. A lot of things are not how I'd have chosen but 'you can't always get what you want' as the man said. Usually I rage-quit an army when a new book hits but not this time. It's stronger than the old book without being filthy good and more importantly, seems to let me keep the playstyle I love. Shooty avoidance seems the go-to build but I'll probably be keeping much the same units as before due to figure restrictions and what I like to play. At least at first. So we have roughly:

Lord, Great Stag, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward.
Lvl 4, Beasts, Scroll, MR or a Ward (not sure), Moonstone or Hail of Doom (not sure).
BSB. Not sure!
Branchwraith

20 Eternal Guard, Shields, FC, magic std.
13 Archers, FC, magic std, enchanted arrows (not sure)
10 Archers, enchanted arrows.

8 Wild Riders, Shields, FC, Gleaming Pennant.
6 Treekin

5 Waywatchers
Treeman
2 Eagles


Lords

The warlord has changed completely. Before I had an absolute monster round 1 who struggled a bit thereafter. Now I have ASF and Ogre Blade for sustained S6 attacks. I'd have liked the Giant Blade but WE's just can't get the high armour saves of other pointy-ears. With Beasts though, Wildform makes this guy very nasty. Charmed Shield is pretty much essential (and safer!) against cannon, given that I've lost the 3++ Ward. This limits the AS to 4+, so taking the 4++ Ward is again a no-brainer. The protection remains a bit thin but I can use the Charmed Shield in combat too and his T4 can perhaps be buffed up. There will also be times where I run the Branchwraith close to the Wild Riders, which gives me a shot at Lifebloom. This guy rocks in at 300pts, as compared to the 345 of the last incarnation.

I really fancy Shadow with WE's now. But what they've done with the fluff, giving all the Lores, High and Dark magic rankles with me. I guess we all go with what we're happiest with. Beasts and Life fit with my concept of a WE army, so that's what I'm going with. Maybe not the most powerful combo but I think they're workable. My games playing a lvl3 showed that spell selection matters, so I'll be taking a lvl4 to give me a better chance of laying my hands on Amber Spear for example. As with HE's, Lord characters got a lot cheaper, so the 25% cap is much less of an issue. One very useful buff is that all WE casters get +1 to cast in woods, so she'll usually be operating at +5 per spell, harder to shut down. I still feel a scroll is essential and I'm not tempted by things like the Book of Ashur or Calaingor's Stave at this point. I think some protection against sniping is a very good idea. I'm leaning toward MR because it will help the bunker/other characters and I don't intend her to get into combat where she'd require a Ward. My general lack of shooting makes the Hail of Doom attractive, even on a mage but the (now multi-use) Moonstone is very tempting as a 'get out of jail free' card.

Heroes

My old Eternal Guard unit virtually forced me to put the BSB into them because the Bodyguard rule meant they were only Stubborn that way. Now that this has been replaced by Stubborn, I get a lot more flexibility on the BSB. I can put him into the Wild Riders, probably with Silvered Steel, Luckstone, Great Weapon. There he gives additional S6 attacks to back the Lord up, making the unit better at grinding and of course opening up the unit's magic banner slot. I liked the look of an eagle, maybe simply the 4+ Ward armour and a GW. It's a bit chancy though, one unlucky cannonball and I've lost my re-rolls. Hail of Doom on foot is tempting, though I don't know what else I'd take with it. It's also possible to simply stick with the foot build I've been using, the addition of ASF and the GW obviously being helpful. The EG and big trees really need his re-rolls close.

The Branchwraith is a thing of beauty. 65pts in the old book and was a passable re-director and Savage Beast target. For only 10pts she got Hatred and became a wizard, fabulous! The Savage Beasting obviously is a lot more nasty with Hatred. An extra Channel never goes amiss. I roll the die at Life and if I like what I get, I keep it. If not I default to Earthblood, which can be useful to the EG, the archers, the Waywatchers, even the Treekin at a pinch. Plus the potential of Lifebloom to heal my (slightly squishy) characters is a very nice ability to have.

Core

First up, I've lost the Dryads. I only had eight and I just don't see the point in putting together a combat block as I already have the EG and the Treekin. MSU makes some sense but as I've made the decision to stick with the EG, I need to get some bows in. The potential of the new enchanted arrows is too good to ignore, expensive as these are. I only have 23 archer models, so we have the units of 10 naked and 13 with full command. I'm really unsure which arrows to go for. On the one hand fast armour lists have the potential to run me over and 5 Waywatchers are not enough to make a dent in these, angling me towards the -3 AS shafts. On the other, Daemons will remain a difficult match-up, so Poison (take that Drones!) and the +1 to wound/Flaming (still think I need this vs Regen) arrows are well worth a look. I could simply stick with Eternal Flame for economy but expensive options that kill things good are very tempting.

So the EG stay. Not the most fearsome combat unit in the world but they are Core, reliable and make a great bunker. On the whole I feel ASF outweighs the loss of the second attack on these guys. They will stick around due to Stubborn, which means even if I don't get the buff off on them all is not lost. They work well with Beasts.

Special

I've been a vocal critic of the drop in S Treekin have suffered. Taken in isolation this nerfs their combat viability considerably. For example, vs MC they are awful. However, the book in general got more shooty, especially against armour, so the chance of 3 MC getting into the Treekin intact is a lot less than it was. Nevertheless, for a unit relying on active combat res, S4 is bad news. I've decided to put 6 into the list for now as it's reasonably solid and not too expensive. I'm strongly tempted to cut this to four and treat it as a support unit. It can still make use of Steadfast and I'll be happier using this to screen for example as opposed to the six.

Quite why Mr Ward decided to feed steroids to the Wild Riders is a mystery but there's no denying they hit like a train now. A single rank of seven kicks out 21 S5 AP ASF and 14 S4 on the charge. The potential of small units to really smash things up has increased exponentially. M9/Swiftstride is great but even with that, you can't just advance into the teeth of the enemy and expect to get the charge. That's where the warlord comes in. With his 4 S6 attacks every round, plus Ld10 and the re-roll from Gleaming Pennant, the WR's are a lot happier to fight when they haven't charged. I've toyed with the idea of putting in the BSB but am leaning against it because of Frenzy. I feel the double-character unit is best with Sisters of the Thorn. I don't want even more points led around by the nose in certain games. 8 Riders plus the Lord is a bit commital but it does hit damn hard.

Rare

Waywatchers are one of the new stars of the army. With their option to either ignore armour completely or to multishoot they are very, very effective and golden for dealing with 1+ AS MC etc.. It's worth noting that the multishot is better on them than on Core archers because of BS 5 and Scout. Most lists I've seen feature 2x10. At present I've just got one unit of 5 in my provisional list, partly because of model restrictions and partly because I think I want the Treeman. I'm strongly considering adding another 5 'watchers, my anti-armour remains a little thin. The advantage of 5-strong units is they are semi-disposable which lets you be a bit more aggressive with them. There is the option of a single unit of 10 though, which could double as a character bunker.

Treemen, what to say? They haven't changed hugely. Losing a point of strength is a blow but not nearly so much as for the Treekin, the Treeman can still do his job. In fact, with Ld9 now, he is much more reliable as a Stubborn roadblock, especially as my General is likely to be elsewhere. WS6 is nice as is the points drop. Losing a wound and the conditional 5++ going to a true 6++ hurts them against mundane cannon, vs Flaming cannon they are as vulnerable as ever. There are things you can do though, they are epic against infantry blocks and chariots and they are resistant to BS shooting, which the metagame is full of.

Eagles haven't changed at all. Too damn useful to leave at home. Extra drops, prime re-directors and other utility jobs.
SpellArcher
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#93 Post by SpellArcher »

Back For More

So after a break of 5 months, I fronted up at the Pompey Pillage. This was a 2-day tournament at Horndean, run by my old club. 2500pts, light comp, one Look out Sir vs Dwellers etc.. I took:

Stag Lord, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward.
Lvl 4, Beasts, Scroll, Moonstone, Opal Amulet.
BSB, Silvered Steel, Luckstone, GW.
Branchwraith.

20 Eternal Guard, FC, Swiftness.
12 Archers, Hagbane, FC.
10 Archers, Hagbane.
10 Dryads.

8 Wild Riders, FC, Lichebone.
4 Treekin.

7 Waywatchers
Treeman
2 Eagles

So Moonstone on the mage, idea being to get best position for those short-ranged Beasts spells. Opal Amulet against cannon sniping and similar. I went with best combat protection on the BSB, risking vulnerability to armour-ignoring attacks. Swiftness on the EG was to keep up with the cavalry. Hagbane to deal with high Toughness meant sacrificing Flaming shots and Trueflight. Thought I would give the Dryads a go as a relatively cheap combat chaff drop. MR on the Riders to see if they could manage without Gleaming Pennant. 7 Waywatchers as a Moonstone bunker.

Ill Blood had knocked my confidence, was I just a bad player? How good was the new book? Could a below-par combat list cut it? All would be revealed...
Lecai
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#94 Post by Lecai »

Hi SA, I love Wood Elves and I like your style (unorthodox rosters that can manage to be competitive enough) so I'm waiting for those batreps with bated breath!

My WE experience mostly involved shooty/defensive lists using nothing but GG, Scouts, WR and WW so your army list looks really refreshing to me after going through all that... The only slightly original thing about the "competitive" lists I've tried was not using a Sister bunker and instead using a big Hagbane or Trueflight GG bunker (3 ranks of 9 within a wood with the characters) with all the characters and MR5 or MR4 from a combination of items deployed in a central position within my free wood (poison wood ofc.). If it can't smash whatever threat approaching them with S&S plus 30 poisoned ASF attacks, the big bunker carrying all those points just teleports away. The list involved thinning down the enemy ranks with shooting & magic and then finishing them off with 3 units of 7 Wild Riders. In other words, booo-ring...

The only things I'd change in your list without killing what you're going for here would be to drop the Dryads and distribute their points into the EG and the GG units to beef them up a little. Maybe add a third 10-elf unit of GG with Starfire Shafts, I dunno... I would also drop the Treekin and buy 6 Wild Riders with a flaming banner for almost the exact same points cost but that's just me... It would be interesting to see if you can make Dryads and Treekin work and keep em' in your list or just drop them forever in a fit of rage due to them being utter garbage units!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#95 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Lecai.

I almost merged my archer units with the same strategy as you cited in mind. In the end though I split them on the advice of Seredain, to split fire and for the extra drop, important in this style of list.

You last paragraph is strangely prophetic.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#96 Post by SpellArcher »

In The Balance

Game 1 - Ogres

The draw went up a week prior on TWF so I'd re-read the Ogre book. I felt I could handle Mournfang, less so the shooty stuff. I'd have to watch for Hellheart blowing a hole in my EG, though the comp precluded combining this with a scroll, so it wasn't a given. My opponent brought:

Slaughtermaster, lvl4 Maw, stuff.
BSB, stuff.
Firebelly, GW, stuff.

9 Bulls, FC.
9 Ironguts, FC.
6 Leadbelchers, musician.
4 Mournfangs, FC, Dragonhide

3 x 1 Sabretusk.

2 x Ironblaster

So pretty even. Barring a juicy combo-charge I would avoid the Gutstar but everything else was fair game. My opponent dropped two 'tusks on his far right, then Leadbelchers, Ironblaster, Bulls, Gutstar, Mournfangs, Ironblaster, Sabretusk. I put Treekin on my far left, screening the Treeman. Then eagle, Waywatchers plus mage, EG plus characters, archers, archers, Dryads, eagle, Riders.

On my left the Treekin advanced but were slowed by Sabretusks, while the Leadbelchers occupied a building and proceeded to shoot them up. A well-timed Flaming Sword made toast of them. I had trouble getting the Treeman into
the action. The Hagbane archers though, removed the Ironblaster in two rounds of shooting, very impressive!

On the right I dropped an eagle and stormed forward with the cavalry. They were duly charged by the Ironblaster but this broke on contact and fled the field, taking the last Sabretusk with it. A curious dance then followed, as the Riders and Mournfangs chased each other for the rest of the game! I should have moved my Lord out and usedvthe Fast Cav moves of the Riders but this didn't occur to me.

In the centre the Bulls ate an eagle and overran just short of the EG in their wood. They were charged and broken with the Forest Stalkers special rule but got away. However, a nifty teleport then saw them eat a flank shot from Amber Spear and the Waywatchers polished them off. The Gutstar ate eagle and Dryads but could do no more.

9-11.

I scored a bonus point for having a standard in a wood.
SpellArcher
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#97 Post by SpellArcher »

Who's Foolin' Who?

Game 2 - Vampire Counts

My opponent had:

Count Mannfred, steed.
Lvl 1 Necromancer, Vamp lore, Scroll, Master.
Lvl 1 Necromancer, Vamp lore, Channelling Staff.

3 x 50 Zombies, command.
3 x 5 Wolves
17 Skeletons, FC.

11 Black Knights, FC, Barrows, Barding.
6 Crypt Horrors
3 Spirit Hosts
5 Hexwraiths

Terrorgheist

My opponent put Zombies on his far right, with Wolves in front. Then the Crypt Horrors, again preceeded by Wolves. Spirit Hosts to their left, then more zombies with the skeleton bunker behind. Next Mannfred and his knights, more Zombies with Hexwraiths behind. Then Wolves, then Terrorgheist. I deployed cautiously (scenario was Blood and Glory except that scoring was the normal 20-0 with 6 bonus points for breaking the enemy). Treekin far left, then eagle, EG, archers, Treeman, dryads, archers, Waywatcher bunker, eagle. I surveyed the huge numbers facing me and was unsure where to place the cavalry. It gradually dawned on me that despite this my combat troops were just better, so I deployed them aggressively centre-right, I fancied their chances against Mannfred.

I won first turn but hung back and shot four wounds off the Terrorgheist. I expected my opponent to hang back and use Mannfred's magic and his tricksy units but he steamed forwards. He screened Hexwraiths and Terrorgheist whilst screaming at the Treeman to no effect. I then advanced and shot the screened stuff off with poison. I used up the Branchwraith to clear wolves and prepared to take charges.

Zombie units hit Treekin, Treeman and Wild Riders. Horrors hit EG. All won combat and stuck. In my turn I threw the Dryads into the flank of the centre zombies, these and the ones fighting the Riders poofed. I reformed both units, blocking Mannfred's knights off with the Dryads. Frustrated, he charged them. I held off his magic with careful
defence and the scroll. Somehow, the Dryads held. Instead of reforming to face the Riders frontally, Mannfred was going to eat a flank charge.

Unable to Make Way because he was still fighting the Dryads, Mannfred saw his unit cut to pieces, he vanished in a puff of smoke. The Riders overran into the EG/Horrorrs combat which had been joined by the Spirit Hosts. Both enemy units evaporated and the Riders overran again, straight into his last unit, the bunker, with predictable results. A massacre.

20-0.

I gained six bonus points for B&G.

Edit: I've since learned that a unit can't Pursue twice in the same turn. It wouldn't have changed the scores here though.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#98 Post by SpellArcher »

Chess

Game 3 - High Elves

My opponent had:

Star Dragon Lord
BSB, World Dragon (enforced by comp)
Lvl 2, Light, Scroll.
Lvl 1, Light
Lvl 1, Light

15 Archers, Std
15 Archers, Std
5 Reavers
5 Reavers
5 Helms, Shields

24 Lions, FC, Swiftness
24 Lions

There was a little history here as we played at SCGT 2009, where my Chariot Prince got the better of my opponent's Star Dragon. The bad boy from Caledor was out for revenge! The Light council was interesting as were the double lions. Tourney FAQ had ruled that my elves would not get re-rolls vs these so a bit of caution was in order.

My opponent deployed a classic refused flank. He had Reavers on his far left, then Helms and some Lions pretty much central. Then the other Lions with all the foot characters, archers, Dragon, archers, Reavers. I had Treekin on my left, eagle, Treeman, archers, Waywatcher bunker, EG, Dryads, Riders, eagle, archers in a building.

On my right the Reavers fled away from my archers towards the centre. Both they and the Helms were gradually whittled down, though counterfire took a heavy toll on my central archer unit. But in general, shooting did not affect the main combat units. Magic also was curiously ineffectual.

There then started a game of cat and mouse between the units in the centre. Me trying to outflank with the Riders, my opponent with his World Dragon unit. Events on the left changed things. The poor Treekin were picked on by the Dragon and routed but he didn't pursue and they rallied. They then intervened decisively in a long eagle/reavers combat.

The Dragon meanwhile, flew towards the centre where the Lions finally grabbed the central objective and were flanked by the Riders. They held though and were rescued by the Dragon, who I'd passed up a chance to Amber Spear. At this point we could have tried to squeeze in the last turn but I needed to get home urgently and my opponent sportingly agreed to call it.

8-12.

My opponent scored 6 bonus points for holding the objective.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#99 Post by SpellArcher »

Scary Monsters

Game 4 - High Elves

My opponent had:

Star Dragon Lord
Caradryan on Ashtari
BSB, Barded Steed, World Dragon,Lance, Shield

14 Silver Helms, FC, Shields.
10 Archers
10 Archers
10 Archers

2 x RBT
2 x Frostheart Phoenix

So something of a hard counter to my M5 list. But as my opponent pointed out , he had no wizards. I would need to make good use of spells like Amber Spear and Wildform to deal with the Phoenixes in particular. The scenario allowed for aggressive forward deployments, so I placed my free wood almost dead centre and resolved to use it aggressively.

My opponent though stuck to his 12" line, pretty much. He had one phoenix left of centre and the Dragon almost in the middle, two units of archers behind it and a hill. Then another Frostheart with the RBT behind it on the baseline. Then Helms, then Caradryan, with the third archer unit behind. I had the Treekin on my left, then an eagle. Archers, Waywatcher bunker, archers, Treeman. Then the EG, deployed aggressively in the free wood. Then Riders, Dryads, Eagle.

I won first turn and charged his left Phoenix with the Riders. For some bizarre reason I also declared with the Dryads. Predictably, only the latter made it in. Then I made a huge mistake which probably cost me the game. I teleported the bunker into a nearby wood. My opponent of course, crushed the Dryads, reformed and charged the bunker, taking it off. Unforgiveable.

On my left the poor Treekin were again picked on, this time by Caradryan and the Silver Helms. Less lucky than last time, they were broken and run down. Centre-left my Treeman charged the third Phoenix but was ground down. The Dragon flew around the EG for a flank shot and took off the back rank. I attacked with the Riders and met the left Phoenix, which was broken and fled the field.

Caradryan then charged the EG, killing the Branchwraith and negating her Earthblood with fire. The EG killed him but were much reduced by the Thunderstomp, Ashtari finally killing them off. The Riders were then flank charged by the Dragon and rear charged by the Phoenix that had killed my Treeman. Heroic resistance was ultimately futile and the Stag Lord broke in the final combat phase, taking the game with him.

0-20

My opponent picked up 6 bonus points for table quarters, I got 2.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#100 Post by SpellArcher »

Elf-shot

Game 5 - Warriors of Chaos

My opponent had:

Disc Lord, 3++, 1+
Sorcerer Lord, Death, Scroll
BSB, Daemonic Mount, 4++, 2+
Hero, Daemonic Mount, 4++, 1+

19 Nurgle Warriors, Halberds, FC
2 Khorne Chariots
2 x 5 Slaanesh Horsemen, Flails, Shields

2 Chimaeras, Breath, Regen, 4+ AS

Another re-match from SCGT 2009, the Chariot Prince had had a hard-fought draw vs my opponent's Lizardmen. This scenario was Watchtower but only the six bonus points up for grabs and with the addition of random damage hitting units near it each turn. I won the roll-off for control but with this in mind and not trusting the EG to hold it, deployed well back to await the onslaught.

My opponent had Horsemen on his far right, then a chariot, then the Hero. Chimaera, Warriors plus Sorcerer,
Chimaera, chariot, BSB, Disc Lord, Horsemen. I put the Riders far left, then an eagle. Then Waywatcher bunker, archers, archers, EG, Treeman, Treekin, Dryads, eagle. Eyeing the Chimaeras I began to wish I'd included some Flaming shooting!

My worst fears were realised as the enemy steamed forwards, monsters to the fore. Bending their bows, the archers didn't let me down and shot the left one off. The other was charged by the Treeman and broke, unlucky being killed off by the magical damage from the Watchtower.

On the left meanwhile, the Horsemen outflanked the Riders but were shot down to a single model. This guy charged the flank of the archers but ASF did for him. The Riders had other problems. Rolling god-like dice, the chariot hammered and broke them, running them down. I blocked the Hero off with an eagle and Amber Speared the victorious chariot. Another noble sacrifice, this time of the Branchwraith, ensured I shot the hero off.

On the right , the Treeman destroyed the other chariot but was eventually ground down by the BSB and Lord, who then double-teamed the Treekin. They didn't fancy having a go at the EG in their wood but instead flew across to attack the archers. I finally got the BSB but the Lord bagged some bowmen.

The Warriors plus Sorcerer had occupied the tower and sustained sniping finally got my BSB. On my last turn, with nothing to lose, the EG had a go. Needless to say, they were repulsed, with heavy losses. The battle had been bloody, each of us racking up around 1500 VP's, another draw! My opponent though, held the tower.

10-10

6 bonus VP's to the Warriors.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#101 Post by SpellArcher »

Conclusion

I placed 40th from 72, content with this. The combat list had just about held it's own which was encouraging, especially as I could already see ways to make it stronger. A great tourney overall, I'm not a fan of scenarios in general but these definitely added something and my opponents were typical of the event, solid tournament players but good guys to play. Result!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#102 Post by SpellArcher »

Analysis

Essentially, the new book list is a translation of the old. So I was surprised by how much better it did. The following factors stood out:

Shooting

Some Wood Elf players are missing the old S4 at short range and not taking the -1 for move and fire. The new arrows are expensive but overall they give you the tools to deal with more things. Hagbane for example was superb for me. High toughness models were simply shot off the board in a manner impossible before. I'd suspected 20 would be enough to make a real impact and indeed they were, so they stay. I did find myself wishing for Trueflight and especially Flaming at times so I may try to squeeze some in. The Waywatchers shot decently, had I faced more armour I'd have a better idea of whether seven is enough.

Magic

Slightly but clearly better. The Branchwraith was an excellent all-rounder. I made good use of Flesh to Stone, although Earthblood didn't have much impact. But Lifebloom was handy for the Treeman and the Channel was nice. Moonstone on the lvl4 is a real find, especially given the short range of several Beasts spells. You have to be careful though, I lost the unit once. But the benefits for Amber Spear for example, are stark.

Tree Spirits

I gave these a fair crack of the whip. But the 4 of Treekin were ineffectual, the screening role I'd envisaged just didn't materialise. The combination of M5, S4 and no static res is awful. Bigger units would just die slower against the fast, S5+ stuff they kept running into. The Dryads didn't contribute much. I can't help thinking there's a better use for their points. Treeman was the best. The big base was annoying but this guy can still go toe-to-toe with stuff, very useful in a Combined Arms list.

Fighting Elves

The EG were OK as a Stubborn bunker from Core. Having a reliable, mobile, home for the BSB is good and in the free wood they fought decently. The Branchwraith was handy as a redirector, though Earthblood was not effective. I kind of wish I had the hitting power of Wildwood Rangers but that would mean a different build, discussed below. The Wild Riders were a bit fragile but the killing power was awesome. This unit with the Lord hits like a train and can grind a bit too. The MR from the Lichebone Pennant went unused.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#103 Post by SpellArcher »

Different Build

This is one I'm interested in but don't really have the models to try out. Essentially the bus is made of Sisters of the Thorn instead of Wild Riders. The idea is, that the 4+ Ward makes the unit more resistant to damage. The offense is provided by Stag Lord (things like the Impact Hits make a difference here) and mounted BSB. This unit is backed up by a smaller one of Wild Riders (to deal with flank stuff you don't want the expensive bus chasing around). My games are strongly suggesting such a support unit to me anyway, in place of the Treekin and as suggested by Lecai.

The infantry block would be of Wildwood Rangers, accompanied by a lvl 4 on Life to keep them going. Life is OK because the army already has three decent combat units that don't require offensive buffing. I'd strongly consider some kind of support caster though. My current list has Amber Spear because there are some targets even Wood Elf archers can't deal with.

The question is, which Core units fill the gap left by the EG? There's also the issue of whether the mounted characters are strong enough without the fighting power of the Wild Riders. It's an interesting idea but I think I'll be sticking with my current build for now. Avoidance is generally regarded as the go-to build. But interestingly, WE players on Asrai are reporting decent results (in tournaments and elsewhere) with various combat builds too. It's a solid book.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#104 Post by Ferny »

SpellArcher wrote:But interestingly, WE players on Asrai are reporting decent results (in tournaments and elsewhere) with various combat builds too. It's a solid book.
Can't comment on *stuff* as I haven't faced the new book yet, but I'm glad it's panning out that way. WE players had it coming a long time. I expect and hope it's metachanging too...will wait and see... :)
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SpellArcher
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#105 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Ferny.

There's a theory that the footsloggers are being carried by the archers and the cavalry! But I feel now that there's enough to make decent combined arms lists. Hitting power remains an issue (Wild Riders excepted) which is one reason I'm still rocking Beasts. In general I feel in the same place as with my High Elves at the end of the old book, not a power list but enough there to win some games and potential for more with some tweaking. Which is a good place to be IMHO.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#106 Post by SpellArcher »

A Dwellers Too Far

So just got back from Regarding Retribution and enjoying a glass of red wine. This was an unusual 1-day tournament because the first two games were at 1000pts and the next two at 2400. With the twist that everything in the small list had to reappear in the big one. The tournament was well run by the Sad Muppets Society in Aldershot. Pretty much uncomped. My first list was:

Level 4, Life, Scroll

10 Hagbane, Musician
10 Trueflight, Musician

5 Wild Riders, Std.
5 Sisters of the Thorn

5 Waywatchers
Eagle

Life was mandated because I had it in my big list, despite it not being optimal here. Otherwise I hoped to get myself a piece of this shooting/avoidance action.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#107 Post by Curu Olannon »

List looks solid for 1000 :) Looking forward to reading this!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#108 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks Curu. 1000pts was an eye-opener and no mistake!

:)
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#109 Post by SpellArcher »

The Joy of 'locks

Game One - Dark Elves - Battle Line

My opponent brought:

Peg Master, 1+ AS, no Ward for some reason

Block of Witch Elves
5 Dark Riders

2 x RBT

2 x 5 Warlocks

My first game against the current DE book. While I knew it to be fearsome, my eyes lit up when I saw the Witch Elves as the shooting game would be key here and they meant less of it to worry about. I put Wild Riders on my left wing, then my Trueflight archers in a house, with eagle hidden behind. My wood was in the middle with Hagbane just to the right of it. Then Sisters, with Waywatchers in another house on my right. My opponent had Warlocks on his right, then an RBT. Witches in the middle, flanked by the Master. Then RBT, Warlocks.

Unfortunately first turn is huge in a game like this and my opponent got it. He advanced across the board. Winds gave him the requisite six dice and the Warlocks nearest duly IF'd a boosted Doombolt and promptly removed my Trueflight unit. My opponent claimed the extra hits would carry over onto my mage so we got a ruling, which was 'roll a dice'! As this roll went my way I just left it at that. I moved the WR's into charge range of the RBT, so he shot a couple off.

On my right the Sisters lost two models and failed Panic though I was able to rally them. I put a wound on RBT with the Hagbane and another on the second Warlock unit. This then repeated the IF unit-removal of turn one, Doombolting my Sisters off. Justice was partly served when my multi-shotting Waywatchers then took the Warlocks off.

The Master then charged the Hagbane, who fled. The Witches came foward to threaten the mage house, so I moved her behind it, blocking the surviving Warlocks with the eagle. Dwellers then took 2/3 of the Witches off. The Wild Riderscharged and killed their RBT, Overrunning off the board.

Next turn the game went. A more modest Doombolt took my mage off and the Master charged and killed the Hagbane. I brought the Wild Riders back on and killed the second RBT but that was that.

VP 265- 950.
Loss.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#110 Post by Curu Olannon »

I take it you have been acquainted with the most broken unit of them all? Welcome to the madness that is uncomped Warhammer and 6-dicing magic :D

Obviously, in your game the most important thing is to control the Warlocks. With your limited amount of shooting, this becomes very hard. With him getting first turn, it´s even worse. Getting off that IF is also very crucial because this means you can´t scroll to save your bacon and furthermore you don´t get to cast either regen or flesh to stone.

As for the mage allocation of hits rules questions, it´s fairly easy. If there are over 5 rank and file models, hits never carry over. If there are less than 5 rank and file models, you allocate as equally as you can. Why the judge didn´t know this is beyond me, it´s fairly basic: 5 Reavers + a cavprince can take 233 hits from a single unit shooting them and the prince won´t suffer any ill effects, even if they´re all S10.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#111 Post by SpellArcher »

Curu, at 1000pts 6-dicing is pretty brutal. TBH that's not the acid test for me, it's at 2400/2500 where it needs to work properly. When the guy opined that the hits carried over I kind of thought, what? Even more surprised when the referee couldn't decide. But happily the roll went the right way!

Warlocks

Yes, the most hated unit in Warhammer. There are few things that enjoy 4D6 S5 hits if the guy can roll a double six. They can go wrong of course, my opponent's 4++'s failed him for one phase and that was enough for the Waywatchers to shoot them off. But at 125pts the DE player won't lose much sleep over it.

Really, the only thing I've got that can soak up that kind of punishment is the Treeman. Being solid vs elves is one reason he's in the army. It does make me consider the merits of Lichebone Pennant on my 2400pt army's bus. The other thing that catches the eye is the ability to laugh off miscast of course. On average one model dies and that's it (compared to two from Sisters).

Maybe I should've tried to restrict the Vanguard with Waywatchers but TBH they performed really well from their house all game and the Warlocks still could've targeted the other house. Possibly the Trueflight should've deployed behind it to be out of sight, though no doubt some other poor unit would've taken the pain!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#112 Post by SpellArcher »

Darken The Skies

Game 2 - Chaos Dwarfs - Meeting Engagement

My first ever game against Chaos Dwarfs! Not strictly true because I faced a Skaven army in 4th edition with a few CD allies but you get the idea! My opponent had some lovely infantry from Titan Wargames and indeed he won Best Army. I have the Tamurkhan book (going cheap ATM) and it's a gem. So I knew roughly how the following army worked:

Castellan

19 Infernal Guard, Great Weapons
24 Infernal Guard

2 x Magma Cannon

I was a bit trepidatious at first and even considered double-cornering! But then I worked out that this match-up was firmly in my favour and deployed pretty much along the diagonal line. Trueflight on the left, then Hagbane plus level 4 (both units in a single rank), then Waywatchers, eagle behind, Sisters, Wild Riders. My opponent cornered, with the Great Weapons and Castellan flanked by the war machines. The other block he held in reserve.

I duly advanced across the board. My opponent hit the Sisters with both cannon but only killed two. I then pulled them back and moved the Wild Riders into charge range. My archers advanced again and some good (but not exceptional) shooting took off the other machine.

My opponent responded by bringing on his reserve, to threaten the flank of the Trueflight. I kept advancing and blocked off his charge with the eagle. The surviving cannon only killed one Rider and was charged and destroyed, the cavalry overrunning past his infantry.

Dwellers then killed the Castellan and weakened the block, which was then simply shot to death by massed bowfire.The other dwarfs charged and killed the eagle but couldn't get close to the archers and that was that.

VP's 847 - 50.
Win.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#113 Post by Curu Olannon »

Boom! Back with a bang. Going single rank and very wide is key vs Magma Cannons. Those things are devastating to Elves. I think that if you can handle these, CD lists are a good matchup for any type of Elves. Nice win, looking forward to the rest of the games :)
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#114 Post by John Rainbow »

Yeah good work SA! You're on your way up!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#115 Post by SpellArcher »

Thanks guys.

My opponent knew this was a tough match-up (he also plays Dark Elves). But he was such a gentleman he even apologised for cornering against me!
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#116 Post by SpellArcher »

Archery

I'm still working out the right blend of shooting for my WE's. What I had at 1000pts seemed to work well enough. My larger armies are combined arms, so shooting is proportionally a smaller part of them. Here for example I added another unit of 10 for the 2400 list.

I was going to double-up on Hagbane but the TO ruled against duplication, hence the Trueflight. These are as good as people say, very reliable all the time. The added 10 were Starfire as after a rather hairy encounter with a pair of Chimaeras at the Pillage I wanted the anti-regen. As it happened the special rules didn't come into play here but 30" Core shooting with AP is well worth having anyway IMHO. If I were running more bow-heavy lists I'd probably max out on Trueflight but with limited numbers 2 x 10 Hagbane is important to tame monsters. Starfire if I can fit them in, Deepwood Scouts are an option here.

Previously I'd run seven Waywatchers as a bunker for my Moonstoning lvl4 but at this tournament I stuck to a simple unit of five. I ended up using the multi-shot almost exclusively, as taking down enemy shooters was the highest priority. I also used them as bait in the last game as at 100pts they are semi-disposable.

I still feel that around 40 bow shots for a combined arms list is a good rule of thumb.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#117 Post by SpellArcher »

Lunch

So first half down. 1/1 was OK, had played OK and the 2400 games were the main thing anyway. A quick bite to eat and a chat with my wife and we were back to use the following list:

Stag Lord, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, 4+ Ward
Lvl4, Life, Scroll, 5+ Ward, Potion of Toughness
BSB, Horse, 4+ Ward armour, Great Weapon, Shield

10 Trueflight, Musician
10 Hagbane, Musician
10 Starfire, Musician
10 Dryads

20 Rangers, FC, Gleaming Pennant
7 Sisters, Razor, Musician
5 Wild Riders, Eternal Flame

5 Waywatchers
Treeman
Eagle

So the new build I've discussed before. This was primarily born from dissatisfaction with Wild Riders as a bus unit. The compulsory Pursuit, lack of durability and generally bad fit with characters led me to Sisters instead. These have 4++, keep the magic standard, aren't Frenzied and can heal the characters with Lifebloom from Shield of Thorns. You have to be a bit careful about casting because miscasts hurt the bus but as back-up magic they are fine, Curse of Anraheir is generally useful. This build necessitates a mounted BSB to keep the bus going and help the Lord kill things. I went with GW because S6 was in short supply. 4+ Ward means the whole unit has it, so I can better throw it into things that wreck armour and might be able to ride out snipes for a bit.

The Rangers give me S5 infantry. Eternal Guard have their points but I'd found myself being very defensive with them, unwilling to take combats on. The theory was that with Life in the unit, Earthblood becomes useful and I can spam buffs to keep them going. I was a little worried about the mage dying, despite Lifebloom and the defensive kit. The knock-on effect from dropping the EG was having to field more Core but I wanted the Starfire anyway. I considered all-archer Core but the lack of a third redirector, utility of a light chaff-clearer and relative cheapness led me to the Dryads.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#118 Post by SpellArcher »

Saved By The Bell

Game 3 - Empire - Battle For The Pass

I'd been dreading BFTP as I dislike the disorientation of not playing behind your army. Luckily, the tables were only two-abreast so I was able to sit behind my army as normal. It's odd but I'd not played Empire before in 8th. The 1+ build can be an issue but otherwise I consider them a fairly decent match-up for Wood Elves. My opponent brought:

Lvl4, Barded Horse, Life, 5+ Ward, Scroll
BSB, Barded Horse, GW, Full Plate, 4++
Lvl2, Fire, Scroll

27 Crossbows, FC
12 IC Knights, FC, Discipline

2 x 5 Outriders
3 x Great Cannon
3 Demis, Std, Musician

2 Volley Guns
Steam Tank

So very shooty with a couple of medium-strength mounted units. I held the combat advantage but was wary of rushing forwards before I'd shot some of the immediate threats off. My opponent deployed Outriders on his far right, then the bus, with a cannon and helblaster behind these. Then Demigryphs in front of the second cannon. Next the Steam Tank fairly central. To it's left the third cannon and second helblaster. Then the Crossbows with fire wizard, Outriders far left.

I had Wild Riders on my left, then bus, Dryads, Rangers, Trueflight, Treeman. Waywatchers Scouted into a central wood. Then Starfire in a house centre-right with eagle behind and Hagbane in my free wood on the right. My plan was to shoot off both units of Outriders, then push forwards and try to suck his mounted troops into a fight they couldn't win with my combat units.

It started slowly, with the enemy shooting a couple of Hagbane off on my right and Panicking the Starfire out of their house, though they rallied. On the left the Wild Riders were partly obscured by terrain, only losing a couple to enemy fire. Mounted Troops and Stank trundled forwards. Other cannons fairly ineffective. My counter-fire was telling, both Outrider units were shot up and each fled the field, on opposite flanks! My combat units edged forwards, except for the Dryads which I pushed towards the Demis.

In his next turn the Treeman ate a cannonball but made his 6+ Ward. A second cannon blew up and my General used up his Charmed Shield to stop another ball. His bus advanced and the Demis charged the Dryads, breaking and running them down, the 12" pursuit leaving them 1" in front of the Rangers. These charged and were joined by the Trueflight (I figured Rangers would die at the same rate) to clear the way for the Treeman to also charge, into the flank. I used up the Wild Riders as a redirector in front of his bus and flanked it with my own. My Dwellers was scrolled.

The Demis put up a stiff fight but were killed off. His bus charged and wiped out the Riders, helped by an IF Flesh to Stone, they overran into my eagle some way back. The cannon found their range and shot off the Treeman. I then rear-charged his bus with mine and put the Rangers into it's flank. I actually put three wounds on his T7 unit and he failed to kill the eagle. But he made the break test and time was called at that point.

VP's 669 - 755.
Draw.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#119 Post by SpellArcher »

Rangers

In general I was pleased with these. Wildformed Eternal Guard probably kill more because of the re-rolls but the S5 always being on is important. The third rank not being able to fight outside of woods could be a problem but that rank tends to get depleted quickly anyway and this was balanced out by the Rangers getting their bonus attacks in this game (and the next) for fighting Fear-causing enemies.

My theory had been that the Life mage could spam buffs to defend them in combat. But here I judged (correctly) that I was beating the Demis anyway and needed the magic more elsewhere. The problem is, as I'll discuss later, whether Life magic does what the army needs in general. If I drop it, the unit may be too vulnerable to a nuke spell or focused round of shooting.

One option is to take High Magic and accrue Protection Counters while casting useful spells. But these are of limited effectiveness on easy to kill troops. Also, does that Lore meet the most pressing needs of the army? There's also the question of whether it's a good idea to commit the mage to this unit at the list-building stage.
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Re: Baptism of Fire

#120 Post by SpellArcher »

Deja Vu

Game 4 - Empire - Dawn Attack

I found myself drawn against the same opponent and when I queried it the TO refused to change it! This was a new one on me. My opponent ended up with the Crossbows/Wizard on his right, then a Helblaster in a wood, with a cannon further back. Then the Steam Tank, then Demis with bus behind. Two more cannon, helblaster in a wood then both units of Outriders. I had Wild Riders far left, then Trueflight and Hagbane on a hill, with Dryads in front. Then eagle, with Waywatchers scouted into a central wood. Then bus and Treeman centre-right, both gaining some protection from a building. The Starfire were on my right with Rangers and mage behind.

Because my combat units were spread out it was difficult to push here. So I resolved to wait for my Rangers. Scandalously, I've only just realized (the benefits of analysing your games!) that I should also have marched the Wild Riders back behind my lines to the centre. I think because I've been too set on them as Frenzied 'go forward' troops and forgotten that in some ways they are very flexible. With horse archers I would have realized. So while the bus waited for it's infantry, I resolved to shoot off the volley guns and Outriders.

So in no-brakes mode, I pushed the Wild Riders forwards where they were promptly shot off by the Crossbows. On the right both units of Outriders moved up to a wall and were charged by the Treeman. Both fled and he ambled forwards, still partly screened by the building. His central troops moved up and I marched the Rangers towards the middle. My Throne was dispelled and Dwellers scrolled. My archers edged forwards on both flanks and began to put wounds on the volley guns.

The Demis charged the Waywatchers, who fled. A cannon put three wounds on the Treeman and the Outriders both rallied. His bus advanced and I let Throne through so that when the Dwellers came I was sitting on seven dispel dice and a scroll. Predictably it was IF'd, I lost the BSB and six (!) out of seven Sisters, the S5 Lord was fine. In retrospect, I would have dispelled Throne as I still held the scroll. My own Throne was dispelled, despite my opponent no longer having a scroll and he was thus unable to stop my Dwellers, which only just made the casting total. Sadly, it killed three knights and neither the S3 Wizard Lord or the S4 BSB died. On the left, the Dryads advanced and were shot up by the crossbows.

Now he pushed forwards in the centre, Demis and Stank backed up by the bus. The Stag Lord had left the last Sister to cover a possible advance round the other side of the house by his bus and she was cannoned off. This panicked the eagle, who was thus unavailable to block the Demis, who were threatening a charge against the archers on my left. The Stag Lord fronted up and blocked off the Demis. The Starfire on my right continued their good work and wiped out one unit of Outriders, the other hid. The Dryads hurried back to block off the Stank.

Demis charged Stag Lord, Stank charged Dryads. Cannon removed the Treeman. Throne went up, again I held onto my dice. Again a spell went through six-dice IF, this time Flesh on the Demis. My opponent rolled a one for his miscast save and promptly Cascaded. He survived though, a few more knights died and the Panic was passed. Stag Lord put no wounds on and took two in return. Stank crushed the Dryads. I finally shot off both helblasters. 8 v 6 magic phase, two dice at Throne of Vines, I roll a three. No Lifebloom for the Stag Lord who died in the next combat phase. Stank went into the Rangers and killed several. Unimpressed they put three wounds on it. Time. Scroll unused.

VP's 345 -1233.
Loss.
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