John Rainbow's Adventures - Short Tournament Report

[John Rainbow]

Dark Elves are a bad matchup!
I did originally say I would do a BatRep (if I had time) of my game this week. I haven’t done one as I would more like to discuss my opponents list and mine in terms of a game & the matchup between the two. In short, I got spanked real hard by this list the other night. I have only beaten it once out of maybe 5 games or so and in that case I got lucky as we had a river across the table which played havoc with my opponent’s movement and I managed to kill all the Black Guard in almost a single sweeping turn of bowfire and RBT fire after a successful cast of withering.

That lone victory is besides the point however. Austin, my buddy who plays this Dark Elf list (see below) has beaten me over the head with it in every other game we have played. For some time I was wondering if I was playing badly/not used to the new Dark Elf list but after a few more defeats, I am starting to think that this list is simply an ideal list to take mine down with. I have some thoughts on this which I will discuss but first, the DE list in question:

DE List:

Sorceress(4)[Dark] + scroll, 4++, ironcurse
Master on Pegasus + 1+AS, Cloak of Twilight
Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood

30 Witch Elves + command, Razor Banner
5 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders

20 Black Guard + command
2 x War Hydra
2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower

Bloodwrack Shrine
5 Warlocks

To start with I have some thoughts on this list. I think it can be optimised further in several ways. This is a scary thought though considering what it is doing to me already! In particular I don’t think the Bloodwrack shrine adds too much to the list and will have problems against cannons, etc in just giving away points. At 175pts it isn’t too expensive but this is 5 more Warlocks or more Black Guard or 2 more RBTs, or a combination of the above, etc. Improving this list is a topic for another time however. I am interested in whether it can be beaten by my current list and if so, how.

For reference, the list I have been using is as follows:

Archmage(4)[Shadow] + BoH, Golden Crown, Ironcurse
BSB + Reaver Bow, Pot.Str.
Mage(2)[Heavens] + scroll

21 Archers + MS
10 Archers + M
3 x 5 Reavers + bow/spear

27 WLs + CMS, BotWD
24 PG + CMS, Razor Banner

11 Sisters
4 RBTs

Onto the actual matchup then. My list has some fairly obvious strategies around it as it functions based on using my long ranged power to reduce any threats whilst allowing my PG and WLs to engage other targets up close either by moving up on them or playing more defensively if I need.

In this matchup, moving up and engaging tends to be a poor option. Both the WLs and the Black Guard tend to beat the PG (Black Guard is a better matchup) and either of them against the WLs isn’t even a contest. In both cases it is the rerolls due to hatred and higher attacks per man that do the damage. Rerolling 1s to wound isn’t bad either! The fact that I can’t go toe-toe with either of these units in CC means that they have to be reduced in effectiveness at range before engaging in CC, or, that they have to be redirected.

Enacting either of these strategies is evidently proving difficult for me based on my past results against this list. I see this as being for several reasons: one, DE chaff is better than HE chaff i.e. Dark Riders > Reavers. The riders have a 4+ AS and hatred which 10 shots per 5 dudes that have Armour Piercing. This results in them taking out Reavers with ease. Given the DEs CC advantage, they can afford to simply kill the chaff I have and then come at me. With Warlocks, 2 x 5 Dark Riders and 2 RBTs this is incredibly easy for the DE list I face. At this point I am easy game as I don’t really have anything capable of redirecting the Witches until I can make them manageable with magic and/or inflicting casualties with shooting.

You might then suggest that I concentrate on killing the units that give me trouble i.e. his chaff and ranged threats before anything else. This is easier said than done in some cases. This is especially true given that by turn 2 I tend to have Hydras and a Peg. Hero breathing down my neck - not units that are easily taken down without concentrating a lot of firepower due to either being a monster with semi-regen or a flying hero with a 1+ AS and 3++ vs. shooting.

In summary then, this DE list is good in CC and thus takes away my usual advantage here whilst simultaneously providing so many viable threats that if one is killed another is able to press the advantage. To cap it all off it is also uniquely able to deal with HE chaff.

So fellow Ulthuanites, do you see any way for me to make my way past this list? Is this as bad of a matchup as I believe it to be or have I just been playing like a dim-wit? (entirely possible ) Do you have any possible tactical insights or grand strategies I might employ?

For the record, so you don’t all think I’m being immodest in my expectations of winning games, I have a pretty even record with Austin (the DE player here) and he also agrees that this is a tough match for my list.

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Dealing with some comments - all of them are great guys so keep them coming and feel free to expand the discussion wherever you feel appropriate

I hope my list tweaking suggestions helped, did you miss the Tal of Pres, the 6th DP and the 3+ AS on the BSB and the 7th Sister too much? Also, Fozzrik's Folding Fortress should be banned from tournaments...

I didn't miss either particularly. The mage made it through all of my games relatively unscathed other than my final defeat against the lizards. Your advice was bang on the money as usual. I really appreciate it. Thanks.

I really like the non-Crossroads version of the list with the Heavens lvl2 Scrollmage and the bigger Sister unit.

I prefer this version too and now that I'm not planning on attending anything else this year I have a bit more freedom from comp restrictions. In particular I think dropping the DPs was a good idea. They are useful but have so many points tied up in what is realisitically a unit that isn't all that tough to neutralize. The extra sisters are a really nice addition. Your idea about including a Hand Maiden certainly has some merit. I'm not sure how I'd fit such a model in at the moment and then what I would do with my BSB if I did so but we'll see if I can come up with anything. As you may have read above, I am thinking that some changes might be in order if I want to down those pesky Druchii!

That`s a very good-looking army I really like the old-school models blended in with the new ones, apart from the somewhat static pose of the Handmaiden models it all looks really good!

Thanks Curu. I'll try and get a few more close-ups if possible. I actually quite like the old Maiden Guard. Check them out here - they look quite good when used as spearmen stand-ins!
Maiden Guard in Ranks

(sorry to hi-jack your thread John but I assume you find this discussion interesting as the army is relatively similar to yours)

Please continue! This is a great discussion! I agree that Lecai has some great insights. I second Curu in thinking you would have a lot to offer in a blog on Ulthuan!

As for Shadow lacking ranged threats, having that big Sister unit plus RBT's and Archers kinda makes up for it in terms of "lacking tools".

+1 from me here. I'd even go so far as to so you almost have to include other ranged threats for Shadow to work as an all-round army lore on the level 4.

Unfortunately I've no reports to show at the moment but I'm thinking of posting some UB batreps with this list in the near future as I'm going to be having some free time in the summer!

You definitely should!

[Curu Olannon]

@Lecai - thanks for the rundown BSB really does seem useful, I`ll keep the loadout in mind! Looking forward to you starting a blog

This is an interesting list and one which resembles a lot of what I face in my meta: flexible lists which can compete in all phases of the game with lots of fast stuff and killy stuff. Flavours of this variant exist for HE, DE, WoC, DoC, OK, VC and Emp at the very least, possibly more.

So first of all I`d agree this is a hard matchup. Your lack of a fast combat threat (read: cavprince, star dragon or frostheart) means you are at the mercy of the board control fight as M5 blocks really can`t compete in this situation. This was largely why I quickly moved to the cavprince + 2 blocks instead of 2 blocks + more shooting. Of course this is not the only way, we have Tethlis for example who excels in this type of playstyle and you have also done very well for yourself, but it`s how I prefer to play and I feel it brings more options to the table. Also, I think this highlights one of my earlier points about Shadow being somewhat lacklustre at a distance. You can`t really threaten him here until the stuff hits the fan: I don`t see anything drawing the scroll really, unless he`s in a dire situation in some way. Of course the L2 Heavens helps, but there are so many juicy targets here and you simply don`t have the tools to really threaten them. I`m thinking Fiery Convocation, Dwellers Below, 3D6 Fireball, S6-7 Banishment, Arcane Unforging etc. I`m not saying to swap Shadow, but this is one of the matchups where it isn`t as strong as when facing Ogres for example (where it`s truly brutal).

Unit matchup: well you don`t want to let the Witchelves near anything, really. Chaffing them out is paramount as they`ll eat any of your units any day of the week. This means that your top priority is to keep the Reavers alive at all costs (I`m talking about considering scroll for Doombolt on them even), so they can do their job here. Assuming you can do this, we`re left with 2 hydras and a unit of Black guard. The former should be containable by your blocks + shadow, the latter are super vulnerable to shooting and really, not -that- much stronger than your PG.

To properly evaluate this though I`d really like to see at least the spells that were rolled up as well as deployment and T1 moves. It`s an uphill battle, but no-where near as bad is it can get. In fact I think you`d have a way bigger problem on your hands if DE had taken more chaff like 2x5 Warlocks + 2x5 Shades and a true killer lore on the L4 (I really don`t rate Dark as that big of a threat. It has a couple of good spells but overall the lore is too selection-dependent), like Life or Death.

One important thing to notice here is that his L4 is only "safe" with the Black Guard. Running her with the Witchelves is super-dangerous even with the 4++ so decimating the black guard will force some hard decisions on your opponent`s part

[SpellArcher]

I second keeping the Reavers screened until you need them John. Pit should still be good against the Hydras but what they did to the regen means you don't have a simple Flaming counter anymore. Is it possible that Dark Magic is not generally fearsome but quite good against HE's? The reverse is true for Shadow I feel. Again Black Guard are a bit dodgy for all-comers I feel but if they get through the arrow-storm they will hurt elves in combat.

I hesitate to recommend a list change but looking at the spell options Curu listed you could lay your hands on the big Fireball by switching the mage to Fire. Heavens has some great spells but you currently have no way of reliably laying your hands on a magic missile. Flame Cage and even the top spell might be quite effective vs the Witch Elves. Flaming Sword is always useful.

[John Rainbow]

I've been meaning to post this and ask for some advice for a while, I've been playing DE a lot recently and really struggle against a certain build i.e. Witches & Cauldron supported by another big block of some sort. Most games I've played I have lost and things seem to rapidly go downhill after my T1. To me this means I am either playing/deploying badly (the likely problem ) or that this DE build is just a good matchup against my list (maybe but less likely unfortunately for me ).

So Ulthuan, I need some help with my deployment against DE and my 1st turn moves. Below are some images from a couple of recent games against DE, both of which I lost and felt were out of my control after T1. Any advice on deployment or my T1 decisions would be great!

My list in each game is more or less the same as it has been for a while. As a reminder here it is:
Archmage(4)[Shadow] + BoH, Golden Crown, Ironcurse
BSB + Reaver Bow, Pot.Str.
Mage(2)[Heavens] + scroll

21 Archers + MS
10 Archers + M
3 x 5 Reavers + bow/spear

27 WLs + CMS, BotWD
24 PG + CMS, Razor Banner

11 Sisters
4 RBTs

So we shall begin the tales of my shame and see where it all went wrong...

... hopefully...

Game 1:
The DE list (not completely optimized IMHO):

Sorceress(4)[Dark] + scroll, 4++, ironcurse
Master on Pegasus + 1+AS, Cloak of Twilight
Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood

30 Witch Elves + command, Razor Banner
5 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders

20 Black Guard + command
2 x War Hydra
2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower

Bloodwrack Shrine
5 Warlocks


Vanguards happened after this and I went defensive - I put my Reavers behind the building on the left and hill on the right to give them cover.

DE went 1st (this seems to be a theme for me v. them as an army) as we had the same number of drops but he won the roll-off. The DE all moved up quickly. The peg hero took up residence behind the tower - to get hard cover and still be able to make a charge into the sisters. The Dark Riders moved up fast on this side too. On the other flank both hydras went into the woods and were screened by the Warlocks and D.Riders in front of them. I didn't take any real casualties of note here.

In my turn I didn't move too much other than to get better shots on his units. On the left I shot the D.Riders with sisters, RBTs and Reavers and left a single man alive at the end of it all. On the right I killed 2 D.Riders with all my shooting - BSB, 21 archers, 1 RBT and 10 Reaver shots. This was bad. At this point I was in trouble.

The game progressed with my opponent using his still alive fast cav. to block my combat units while the hydras ate my archers (they needed a turn to move up before charging in T3) and then got into my backlines. Bad days as I had nothing to even begin to deal with the big units in the middle in the end. My plan had been to kill the stuff on the flanks and use my reavers to block up his Witches whilst I killed the Black Guard - I can't take on both units. Needless to say this didn't happen as I couldn't kill anything first turn. So, Ulthuan, bad rolls or just bad decisions in deployment here?

Game 2:
A different opponent and a different list this time

Level 4 Shadow + scroll
2 x Master on Pegasus, 1 with 3++ cloak of twilight, 1 with charmed shield and both have 1+ AS
Hag on Cauldron

20(ish) Xbows
Lots of Witches + movement banner
28 Executioners

2 x 5 Warlocks
3 x RBT

Deployment:

He has the advantage of a +1 to go first and wins the roll off. Above the image shows the game after deployment & vanguards (again I was defensive and he was aggressive with these moves).

Image after T1:

The next image shows the state of play after both our T1s. I have pretty well weathered the DE T1 with no real losses to speak of other than a couple of Reavers from the central unit, crucially though that unit has survived his turn.

In my turn I again tried to shoot up his fast units to save my own for use later in the game and again, I failed. In this case I had 11 sisters hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s and with no AS for the Warlocks on the one side who failed to do a single wound (they should do 3) and this is before I also shot both RBTs and the reavers on that flank at them also. As you can see in the image, both units of Warlocks survived, the one on the left had even been withered. I did not move my archers to shoot them as I thought (correctly going through the math) that I could kill the unit on the right and debuff the unit on the left and rear-charge next turn with reavers. A potential mistake I did make here though is not moving the Reavers out of the top right hand corner to be able to control the board center.

So, to summarize the rest of the game, the Warlocks and Peg Heros killed all my chaff and RBTs after I failed to kill any of these units in my T1 (DE T2 magic phase was all about Warlock magic missiles!) and thus lost my board control and the game.

Was this a deployment mistake or a mistake in my T1 movement? Thoughts everyone?

[Dragon fire]

Two interesting cases. My primary and sometimes only opponent are a good friend of mine who play DE. So far I have a 5/4 W/L ratio.

I've 4 or five times met something very similar to the second list so I will focus on that one. Two things I noticed about your deployment:
1. of all I deploy much tighter. I mean I had placed all 4 RBT on the same hill as well moved my sisters in front with PG in center and WL on the outside. In general I typically keep WL on a flank without too much pressure or I keep the behind the PG's unless my opponent comes with Cold ones. I typically move slightly forward with the PG's as I want those to do the primary fighting.
2. In my T2 I typically place a unit of sacrificial reavers 1" in front of his WE unit with an angle to throw them to the board edge. If they charge they have to overrun and move on average 7" away from the center. The WE block will not be a thread before after the next two turns (one to charge and one to turn around to get me in forward arc). I think I would have moved the reavers on the right up behind the building, so that they would get a redirect T2. If the WE do not charge they do not move, and my opponent needs to focus shooting and magic to get rid of the reavers.

Against DE I typically use the archers against exes. Both in CC and for shooting because exes hate lots of S3 fire (I run 30 archers in one units). With stand and shoot and ASF 30 archers remove something like 12 exes before they get to strike back. This has often been enough for me to survive 1 round of combat (I typically hold on steadfast) and thereby giving me a crucial round 2 without any hatred rerolls.

I tend to use my RBT's to take out the peg heroes. I feel they are a much greater thread to a tightly deployed army compared to the DR and Warlocks. One thing to note is that I've run High magic lot (either as the lvl 2 or the lvl 4), which has a lot of the means to deal with DE. The most important is the magic missile to take care of DR's and warlocks. A lvl 2 high mage in your setup will bring you 3++ PG's and a 2d6 MM that on average will take down 3-4 DR's per cast.

I've found that taking at least one peg lord out of the game early and keep WE out for 2 additional rounds is crucial.

I hope this brings you some input to play style. Neither my friend or I are experienced players but I think both of us decent.

[sparkytrypod]

hi john, agree with the above comment regarding tightening up your deployment, suggest playing more refused flank, you could use your reaver drops to throw off your opponent, then vanguard to safety or into a forest for cover modifiers etc.

Another idea might be to deploy your bolt throwers(or maybe 3 of them) on the opposite side of the board to the rest of your army, right along the back line and spaced out to prevent easy overruns. dark elf player will have to dedicate a lot of light troops to take these out, you should clear most of these with 24 S4AP shots then. these could also be supported at range by archer fire depending on deployment.
if dark elf player leaves them alone, even better! shoot away every turn.

also in those 2 games your archers are deployed far ahead of the back line of the table, its all about getting more turns shooting as you outrange/outshoot DE, so delay and gun down. reavers could be left behind infantry units to gain modifier against shooting until needed too.

in game 1 I would have deployed my infantry behind the building on the left and used this to try and split his forces, one side is very narrow, on the open side he has to pass through a forest so no steadfast, dangerous for him.
in game 2 a similar situation, deploy infantry in your right hand corner and use the building to disrupt his lines.

I even think in later turns it would be worth using your lvl 2 mageas a redirector until you are ready for combat

with the rise of elves again I think there is a lot to be said for a lvl 4 high mage too.


just some ideas, I am NOT an expert by anymeans but I try

[oreaper]

I really like your setup as it stands but unfortunatly it is a rather tough matchup ( as is anytime where your at a disadvantage in the movement phase). As it has been already said, chaff clearance is paramount in these scenerios. Giant blocks be damned if you can clear lanes because your the only one left with chaff. Game 2 if you'd hvae redirected the witches with that lone reaver thats an extra couple of turns. i find refused flank nice for this. We have the tools to out shoot the Delves (as strange as it may seem) so funnel in the chaff to a firing lane and focus to death. Also a low lvl high mage is so so so good against these types of lists but thats another thing. Cheers!

[Curu Olannon]

Hi john, I have some preliminary thoughts on the matter but tomorrow I am facing such a list myself so will write down my opinions after that

[Curu Olannon]

Ok, having a little experience against the new DE I`ll try and give my 2 cents on the subject.

First of all, Dark Elves are a hard counter to your army. Their infantry is better than yours with the exception of PG, the chaff is better and their magic is better. Shadow is quite bad against Dark Elves, its utility lies in bringing terribly strong units down to a normal level. Dark Elves are not terribly strong, they are fast and hard-hitting, which is very different. I think that vs Dark Elves, even Lore of Fire is a better option.

So, having this out of the way, let`s see what you can do. Witch Elves are next to impossible to engage. Even without a fighting Lord with them, they will tear your infantry apart. With the Cauldron it`s not even funny what these guys can do to High Elves. Your best bet here is to frenzybait them 24x7, even if it`ll cost you all your chaff and then some. The alternative is a huge loss.

Realize that this alone means that you are on the back-foot from T1. To add to this, their superior chaff means you have to play a castling, defensive game. Inherently, this lets you take advantage of Shadow as Miasma becomes doubly powerful when utilized against an enemy attacking a corner-army and withering + enfeebling get in range a lot easier. However the point about being on the back-foot is that your Reavers HAVE to survive at all costs. Place them in hard cover at least, or better yet just put them out of sight. They are as precious as your L4. Without them, the Witchelves will win the game single-handedly. If you feed them every single unit in your army one by one, they will be alive at the end of the game. That is how powerful they are against us.

So having dealt with how you should handle the Witchelves, let`s have a look at the rest. Basically, despite your inferior chaff, Withering allows you to at least contest a shooting war. The important part here is to realize that you cannot deal with the Witchelves, so don`t even bother shooting them. Instead, do your best to pick off Warlocks, Shades and Dark Riders. If you can win the mobile war, you might have a chance to break through with your elite infantry, perhaps winning his back-field while his Witchelves are frenzy baited. If executed correctly, this can lead to a small win. If you get lucky with miasma + pit combo or a huge withering on a critical unit, you can get a big win.

In the end though, you have to realize that for your playstyle, this is just hard. It`s just like when you play a Star Dragon and you face up against Cannons. Regardless of what you do, you`re going to have a tough game at your hands. The question thus becomes if you`re willing to accept this as a bad matchup, or if you`d like to change your approach. If you are willing to accept this as a bad matchup, perhaps there are some changes you can make to help your strategy (i.e. redirect Witchelves for 6 turns and win the chaff war) that don`t affect the majority of your other matchups in a negative way. As I said previously, magic missiles are great against Dark Elves. Even Warlocks with their innate 4++ fear a 2D6 S4 missile, it really doesn`t take a lot of casualties before they start losing their power as, despite their strength, they are few in number and every casualty hurts. If you are not willing to accept this matchup and indeed want to change your approach, both the cavstar and the star dragon builds can pretty much just go full retard and engage the WE to the front and win. These again of course suffer from other weak matchups, so I suppose it depends on your meta/preferred playstyle.

Lastly, looking at your deployment diagrams it would appear that you tried to do the impossible: you match up your army on a unit-by-unit basis, e.g. Sisters across from Witchelves because their shooting is good, WL across from Hydras because WL are good against monsters etc. High Elves don`t work like this. We win games based on force concentration, i.e. bringing more points to bear on a critical point than an enemy. At this, we`re even better than Dark Elves. Castling up also helps in this regard by the way. While the Witchelves are to be considered as strong as the good old 3++ Chosenstar, the rest of the army that isn`t skirmishing, fastcav or flying is pretty much your opportunity to take points (of course you can win points vs these as well, they just tend to evade you very well in the hands of a skilled opponent).

[John Rainbow]

I've been gaming recently!

At 2500pts I've been using:

Prince + b.steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, DragonHelm, Po.Fools, Sh
Archmage(4)[Heavens] + steed, BoH

Noble + Ogre Blade, Ench.Sh, DA, Ironcurse Icon
BSB Noble + b.steed, BotWD
Mage(2)[High] + steed,scroll, Ring.Fury

10 SHs + command
5 SHs
2 x 5 Reavers w/bows

10 Dragon Princes + command, BoEF

2 x Frost Phoenix

It’s been working out pretty well so far although I’m actually thinking of changing out the DPs for something else and have been thinking Sky Cutters as they fit pretty well with the stand-offish nature of the list and how I want to play. If anyone has any thoughts I’d be happy to hear them…

The other night I played one of my best games ever and managed to pull defeat from the jaws of victory which was pretty depressing. I was playing against Dark Elves with the following (roughly):

lvl.4 Dark Magic + Scroll
Peg Hero + cloak of twilight
Hag BSB on Cauldron

Horde of Witch Elves
2 x 5 Dark Riders + all the gear

28 Black Guard + command
4 x RBT

5 Bro-Locks
Hydra
Medusa on Shrine (goes in Black Guard)

At turn five I had only lost a single unit of Reavers and he had lost 3 RBTs, all of his chaff (Riders and Warlocks) and his Hydra. In addition I had also managed to whittle down his Black Guard to half their starting number. I was well in command and things were looking good - I was onto (I thought) a sure victory (spoiler? lol). I had out-deployed my opponent to start and had used my maneuverability to stay away from him throughout the game and played it very well in both mine and his opinion.

Come T4 I had moved up to cast some 24” spells on his Peg-Hero for a coming (planned) combat with one of my frosties. In the end I failed the charge (needed 5 and rolled 2,2,1!) and this was the beginning of the problem as it left my bird in front of his B.Guard and my bus 14” from the same unit. In his turn I fled my bird from the charge of his B.Guard and escaped, he then redirected into my bus needing a 9” on the dice to make it… After a lot of umming and aar(gh)ing I decided my best choice was to flee as I had around 23” to the table edge and Ld10 in the bus and didn’t want to risk him getting the charge and a good magic phase to back it up - I was winning either way whether I killed this unit or not so didn't need to risk it as only a minimal flee of a few (3") inches would make the charge impossible for him.

In the end I fled 11” and then failed the Ld10 rally on my turn before rolling a 12” and fled off the table…

Great stuff…

... pretty devastating as I was so in control of the game against a list I had yet to beat with my HE...

Next game is this Thursday against the same guy but with another of our buddies for some Triumph & Treachery!

[Curu Olannon]

Good to see you back in the game! Quite an original list, too. Is your second mage mounted? Shame about the DE game. DE are hard for us and Witchelves in particular are tough to deal with. That said you looked to be having this one. Quick question: after the frostbird failed its charge, why was your bus within 14" of the black guard if you were intending to flee? I believe that before your movement phase was over you should have known what you wanted them to do in the ensuing turn.

[John Rainbow]

Quite an original list, too. Is your second mage mounted?

Thanks although I fear it might not remain this way (see below)... the mage is mounted and runs with the bus - I've edited the OP.

Quick question: after the frostbird failed its charge, why was your bus within 14" of the black guard if you were intending to flee?

I had moved up and was expecting to possibly be charged but I wanted to get within 24" of a number of units for spells (arcane unforging on his peg hero with cloak being the prime target). Unfortunately I was let down with magic and then fled the charge very, very far - I had assumed that I would be ok in this regard and obviously was wrong. Your comment is an interesting one though, why play such a move to begin with? We hadn't added up points at this point but it was very close -I was at this point up by maybe 400pts but as my Frost Phoenixes were both badly wounded (maybe 1W and 2W left on eacH), I was worried about his last RBT and peg hero, along with his magic taking close to 500pts from me if I wasn't careful or proactive in stopping this. Looking back on this I probably took too big of a risk and could have protected them in other ways.

Where next for the list?
Truth be told, I built this list to take down my opponents Dark Elves as I was tired of getting thrashed by them with my infantry based shadow list. I had tried many times to win that game with that list and failed every time except for one when I got lucky. As a matchup I think all infantry Elves (no Frosty) v. Horde Witch Elf DE is generally a poor matchup and one that my list should expect to lose.
See here for typical lists in these games

Coming from this background, I wanted an all-mounted list with some combat threat and supreme maneuverability. The list below is what resulted:

Prince + b.steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, DragonHelm, Po.Fools, Sh
Archmage(4)[Heavens] + steed, BoH

Noble + Ogre Blade, Ench.Sh, DA, Ironcurse Icon
BSB Noble + b.steed, BotWD
Mage(2)[High] + steed,scroll, Ring.Fury

10 SHs + command
5 SHs
2 x 5 Reavers w/bows

10 Dragon Princes + command, BoEF

2 x Frost Phoenix

The list ticks the box of being all-mounted and mobile but now runs into the issue of being unable to inflict much damage off the charge other than through the characters. My current magic choices are also fairly useless in this regard. In the DE game I played I found I needed to stand off a lot and inflict damage at range which I was successful at doing (Comet for his RBTs, magic missiles & bows for his chaff). The DPs never got to a situation where I thought that they could charge and the bus was similarly impotent for much of the game until his units were whittled down somewhat.

So, how will the list develop? I can see this list having big problems against Ogres for example due to the lack of grind ability v. their supreme grind ability, especially in the Gut-star which I would likely face. I think the next iteration of this list needs to get more use out of the points currently spent on characters and combat. This probably means the DPs need to go. I can see replacing them with Sky Cutters actually being a sensible idea as they also offer combat threat on the charge and with BT upgrades also offer some sort of ranged threat whilst also being able to move around.

10 DPs with command and the banner is 330pts. For this money I could also fit in 2 Skycutters with the BT upgrade and a unit of Shadow Warriors or a couple of Eagles. I'm quite interested to try this out although then it has repercussions for the magic choices I've used. Heavens has obvious synergy with mounted lists as rerolling those 1's for AS is pretty powerful. If the list is becomes more stand-offish though and is less focussed on CC, is this then worth it? I can see Heavens still being a very decent choice but I think there is an arguement for some other lores too such as light maybe although then we might want a council. It seems like I have some thinking and decisions to make about where to go with the list.

... or I could just leave it the same for a while and see what happens in my next couple of games (there might be one against Vamps soon).

[Curu Olannon]

I think the inherent weakness of your original list is Shadow. I`ve argued many times recently that this is a poor lore for Elf matchups. I believe infantry can work, also vs DE, but not without the proper support. Yes, Witchelves are always hard to deal with without cav, so you could of course swap your playstyle. We`ve seen both bus + wl and bus + pg becoming popular so they are both viable builds to try out.

Alternatively, an infantry force centered around a PG deathstar (US Masters list), WL coven-star (Swedish ETC list last year) or WL + PG + Heavens (Furion`s Defense) could also be worth pursuing. There are also more exotic approaches, including Germany`s double L4 or Croatia`s double Loremaster, both from this year`s ETC.

In the end it boils down to preference. It is important to remember though that any and every list has bad matchups, so it`s a matter of picking your poison. This is where meta factors in heavily and thus, with you playing across the globe from me, you know better than me what`s common in your area.

[John Rainbow]

I think the inherent weakness of your original list is Shadow. I`ve argued many times recently that this is a poor lore for Elf matchups. I believe infantry can work, also vs DE, but not without the proper support. Yes, Witchelves are always hard to deal with without cav, so you could of course swap your playstyle. We`ve seen both bus + wl and bus + pg becoming popular so they are both viable builds to try out.

Somewhat true although the big problem I was having was in dealing with enemy chaff or multiple threats. For instance when I was running my list with 3 Reaver units as chaff and not much else (small sisters and maybe characters count to) I found that a DE push list based around 2 hordes with D.Riders, Warlocks and Hydras was too much to handle and could not tackle all the threats before one of them got to me and, with the inevitable rerolls destroyed my CC units.

This can be both down to shadow and down to the inability of my chaff to counter opposing chaff. Sure a lore with more ranged threats (magic missiles) to deal with that chaff can really help but it doesn't really account for the problem in full. D.Riders & Warlocks are still > Reavers and against 4 RBTs of the opponents it is difficult to keep the chaff alive long enough to redirect the right threat at the right time.

I think this kind of list probably needs more chaff in the form of eagles which can hide behind the lines to get cover before jumping forwards when needed. A frost phoenix would also help in deterring small enemy units also. However, this cuts from other areas, likely the RBTs and strong ranged threat that this list is built around.

In the end it boils down to preference. It is important to remember though that any and every list has bad matchups, so it`s a matter of picking your poison. This is where meta factors in heavily and thus, with you playing across the globe from me, you know better than me what`s common in your area.

Indeed. My current meta is Dark Elves, Lizards and Vampires as we're the only players left in my town and I don't have the time to travel for events at the moment. I'm really liking the all-mounted list at the moment so will stick with it and try to develop towards an all-comers approach if possible.

Next game is a fun game of Triumph & Treachery. I will be using random mercenaries so no idea what I will have there but my list is going to be...

Annointed on Flamespyre + Giant Blade, Ench.Sh, Dawn Stone
BSB Noble on Eagle + Dragon Helm, Star Lance, HA
2 x lvl.2 High Mage, 1 scroll, 1 ironcurse
Handmaiden + Reaver Bow

10 SHs + command
5 SHs
3 x 5 Reavers w/bow

20 Swordmasters + command, BotWD

13 Sisters of Avelorn
Frost Phoenix

Total: 2500pts

This isn't at all what I would consider optimum. I just wanted something fun and to try out the much-vaunted Annointed on Flame Phoenix. Let's hope it's a fun game!

[Curu Olannon]

I think an Anointed on a Flamespyre is great, given your meta. He is super-scary as a counter-charger and doesn`t have the same weaknesses as the Star Dragon, while at the same time Wake of Fire combined with Walk Between Worlds just totally rips those units apart. Remember that a rank is a rank regardless of how many models are there, allowing you to punish skirmishers, congalines and fast cav with impunity.

Looking forward to hearing about further developments

[Galharen]

you count ranks when there are at least 5 r'n'f models in it, it stays in out armybook I believe, but I'm not sure right now

[Curu Olannon]

you count ranks when there are at least 5 r'n'f models in it, it stays in out armybook I believe, but I'm not sure right now

...plus an additional D3 hits per rank after the first.

[Malossar]

you count ranks when there are at least 5 r'n'f models in it, it stays in out armybook I believe, but I'm not sure right now

You're referring to Rank Bonus.

[John Rainbow]

Time for a brief update. I've had a couple of games of T&T (at a rate of about 1 a month) and that is it so far. Until this week...

In my last game against DE I played a big SH bus with Prince et al. and did really well. I was very happy with the way the list played against Witch Elf horde DE and wanted to build off that. I played a very similar DE list again based around a big unit of Witches and one of Black Guard and wanted to run a really mobile list again as this worked well last time. I made a few changes, most notably with the new End Times 50% lords I pulled my old favorite the Star Dragon back out along with a lvl.4 mage in a SH bus.

The game was a standard battle line at 2500pts, no comp.

Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Ench.Sh, 4++, OTS
Archmage(4)[High] + BoH, steed, ironcurse

Noble BSB + b.steed, BotWD
Noble + b.steed, Dragon Helm, DA, Ogre Bladem Sh
Noble + b.steed, Star Lance, Golden Crown, DA, Po.Fools

15 Silver Helms + command, shields
5 Reavers w/bows
5 Reavers w/bows
5 Reavers w/bows

Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix

The DE list was (approximately):

Sorceress(4)[Dark] + dispel scroll, 4++

Hag BSB on cauldron
Noble on Peg + Cloak of Twilight

Horde of Witch Elves + command, razor banner (cauldron in here -duh!)
5 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders

30(ish) Blackguard + command (Bloodwrack & lvl.4 in here)
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Kharibdyss
Kharibdyss
Bloodwrack Shrine
5 Warlocks

The game started really badly for me as I did not get first turn then failed to cast on T1 rolling four 1's for my first spell after a boxcar phase and BoH didn't help me. I then sucked my wizard down a hole in T2 after casting Unforging on his peg hero (I did destroy his cloak).

Luckily I swung it around by combo'ing the Black Guard with SH bus and both Frosties while sending the Prince into the Witch Elves to stop them hitting my bus in the flank after I won the combat. The Prince and dragon challenged the Hag (she can't refuse) and luckily stuck in combat there for a couple of turns - I killed the hag in the first turn but failed to kill the cauldron in a couple of phases. This actually worked out really well as the Prince was stubborn on a reroll with the BSB and BotWD nearby and it allowed the bus to reform to help out. In the end I didn't need the bus as when the Dragon killed the cauldron, the Witch Elves and Kharibdyss fluffed their attacks and the combined effect of thunderstomp and breath weapon nailed the witch elves. Result: big win for the HE and a great return for the Dragon!

Any thoughts on the list would be greatly appreciated!

[SpellArcher]

I actually think that's quite a strong HE list vs a middle of the road DE list. But hey, it's still Dark Elves, well played John.

So did charging the Cauldron reduce the amount of poisoned attacks you were taking back or is the Dragon OK there anyway?

[John Rainbow]

Charging the Witch Elf unit was a big risk but at the start of T3 I had lost all of my chaff (pretty usual v. DE) and my lvl.4 had dropped down a hole given me zero magic. I used the Dragon as a very expensive blocker and with the hope that I would (a) kill the Hag BSB & prevent rerolls in the combat with the Black Guard and (b) actually hold up against the Witch Elf horde if I could beat them in CC.

A couple of things really help here:

1. Having BotWD nearby on my BSB (i.e. within 12") means the Dragon is stubborn and can therefore sit in combat and grind even if it loses purely due to static res (many ranks, banner, BSB). In fact I lost combat by quite a lot in the first few rounds - maybe 4 points or so.

2. Being able to challenge the Hag BSB. The rules for the DE cauldron mean it has to go front and center in the unit. This means that the Hag cannot refuse a challenge as she cannot move out of the way. This then leaves the Hag very vulnerable. The cauldron chariot is actually a fair bit tougher so I was banking on killing the BSB and not the chariot (which is what happened) and then being stuck in combat with the cauldron for a couple more rounds (again what happened). If you read the section on challenges and mounts, any mount be it monster or chariot continues the challenge if the rider is killed. This protected the dragon from the WE horde for a bit more time. At this point I got lucky as he only got 12 attacks on my dragon when I had dealt with the Hag/Cauldron due to a reform to get a Kharibdyss in contact. I then got lucky and stomped/flamed the unit to death.

Running the math-hammer, he should get 4 Witch Elves in B2B, this is equivalent to 20 attacks. Assuming he targets the dragon... On average and with rerolls 18 of these hit, with 3 of these auto-wounding due to poison. Out of the 15 that are left he should get 3 or so wounds (actually 2.5 but allowing for murderous prowess this gets more complicated). So total 6W of which 3 are saved due to armour (he had the razor banner). The dragon and rider then go to town and do a lot of damage now that the ward save has gone with the cauldron. The dragon wins combat by quite a lot (I calculate around 14 W assuming you use the breath). This is likely not enough to break steadfast and next turn the dragon will probably take close to 3W again. The end result will depend on whether the Witch Elves still have steadfast at the end of the combat (likely) and how well they do next CC phase.

TLDR, Star Dragon v. Witch Elves is close and can get swingy depending on rolls. With decent rolls, especially poison, the Witch Elves should grind it out most times I think but this one worked out for me. Obviously with magic it gets a lot different!

[John Rainbow]

Here is an updated list for a tournament I am going to in January. It is pretty standard other than using 50% lords/heroes. It's a 2500pt event. Any thoughts on this:

Prince on Star Dragon + Sword.Might, Dragon Helm, 4++, OTS, HA, Sh.
Archmage(4)[High] + BoH, Ring of Fury, steed

Noble BSB + steed, HA, BotWD, GW
Noble + b.steed, DA, Ench.Sh., Ogre Blade, Ironcurse
Noble + b.steed, Star Lance, Sh., DA, Po.Fools

11 Silver Helms + command, shields
6 Reavers + bows, Champ, Mus
5 Reavers + bows, Mus
5 Reavers + bows, Mus

Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix

[Curu Olannon]

I prefer the Star Lance on the Prince because he becomes so much more dangerous with it. GW on the BSB is very risky as you're left with only a 3+ armour save. I prefer scroll over book if I have to choose. Helms look a little small, maybe ditch one unit of Reavers for them? I would consider ditching Noble 2 in favour of "converting" him to Caradryan on Ashtari (if SCs are allowed), dropping a Frostheart from the rare section (also decreases your drops by 1).

Are you sure Ring of Fury is worth it here? Would you consider e.g. Crown of Command instead?

[NexS]

I prefer the Star Lance on the Prince because he becomes so much more dangerous with it. GW on the BSB is very risky as you're left with only a 3+ armour save. I prefer scroll over book if I have to choose. Helms look a little small, maybe ditch one unit of Reavers for them? I would consider ditching Noble 2 in favour of "converting" him to Caradryan on Ashtari (if SCs are allowed), dropping a Frostheart from the rare section (also decreases your drops by 1).

Hehe that would end up looking closer to your net list then, wouldn't it Curu?

Are you sure Ring of Fury is worth it here? Would you consider e.g. Crown of Command instead?

Maybe the thought process is to get a cheap +1 ward save?

[John Rainbow]

I took this list to a matchup with DE the other night - a hybrid list with combat blocks and a Dreadlord on Black Dragon. In the end I won convincingly. Black Dragons are no match for Star Dragons! Mwah-ha-ha!

I prefer the Star Lance on the Prince because he becomes so much more dangerous with it.

Agreed. I'll play around with this a bit and see if I can get a mini-Imrik that I like and still fit in the rest.

GW on the BSB is very risky as you're left with only a 3+ armour save.

Agreed, at the moment though he gets to go in the 2nd rank and both adds a bit of grind whilst using up the last few points I have. With the few changes I might be making I'll see where this guys ends up and with what...

I prefer scroll over book if I have to choose.

I always find this a tough call. Obviously the scroll is much better when you just have to stop a spell. With running High magic though, I think the BoH might be superior in that it allows you to fling out a bunch of spells with less dice and reduce the risk. I always hate making this choice but sticking in a scroll caddy doesn't seem to make sense as I don't have the points and he won't be used much. As for the Ring, I was trying to find something to add a little more ranged punch. I can definitely see the arguement for the crown though. It is probably a better choice in more situations as I'll often end up in CC and unable to cast missiles anyway.

Helms look a little small, maybe ditch one unit of Reavers for them?

I played around with a unit of 15 instead (ditching one unit of Reavers in my previous game. This is still a bit up in the air at the moment as I can see advantages in both setups.

I would consider ditching Noble 2 in favour of "converting" him to Caradryan on Ashtari (if SCs are allowed), dropping a Frostheart from the rare section (also decreases your drops by 1).

Special characters are out unfortunately.

Hehe that would end up looking closer to your net list then, wouldn't it Curu? ... Maybe the thought process is to get a cheap +1 ward save?

I guess its a netlist for a reason! The +1 to ward certainly helps but I was more thinking in terms of dealing with annoying units like dogs or sabretusks. These are probably less of an issue with this list though and the flyers.

[NexS]

I do agree with Curu re the size of the helms though. If you've got 2 frosties and a SD then you want something else formidable to come up the middle as well so that your opponent doesn't get the chance to focus their whole force on killing your big, expensive things..

[Curu Olannon]

I don't think my earlier recommendations count as a netlist, yet. The netlist, if anything, is double dragon, double frost and BSB I think, to maximize the flying threat.

Anyway, the Helms' biggest role in a list like this is providing static. See my article on powerplay (yes, I will get this moved soon!!) for examples and elaboration. To do this, 15 is a minimum. T3 2+ tends not to last too long, unfortunately, so I prefer going a little over this. After all, they are hard to take out if you don't want them taken out when covering under BOTWD

[John Rainbow]

I've tried to take a few comments on board re: the bus in particular. The general now has the Star Lance to become a mini-Imrik and the Crown of Command is in the list for some grinding potential. I've also included a Life magic option which has had a bit less thought put into it if I am completely honest - particularly in the noble loadout.

I only have 15 SH models (of which only 10 are fully painted) so this is why the unit is as it is.

The 2 lists at 1500 pts:

List 1 (High Magic)
Prince on Star Dragon + Star Lance, D.Helm, 4++, OTS, Sh.
Archmage(4)[High] + steed, BoH, Crown of Command

Mounted Noble + Ogre Blade, Ench.Sh, Ironcurse, DA (1+/6++)
Mounted Noble + Lance, DA, Sh (2+/6++)
Mounted BSB + BotWD, HA, GW, Sh (2+/3+)

15 Silver Helms + command, shields
6 Reavers + champ, bows & spears
6 Reavers + champ, mus, bows & spears

Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix

List 2: Life magic
Prince on Star Dragon + Star Lance, D.Helm, 4++, OTS, Sh., Lion Cloak
Archmage(4)[High] + steed, Scroll, Crown of Command

Mounted Noble + Ogre Blade, Ench.Sh, Ironcurse, HA (1+)
Mounted Noble + Sw.Antiheroes, Charmed Sh., Po.Fools HA, Sh (2+)
Mounted BSB + BotWD, HA, Lance, Sh (2+)

15 Silver Helms + command, shields
6 Reavers + champ, bows & spears
6 Reavers + champ, mus, bows & spears

Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix

My current questions:

1. Lore of High magic or Life? I currently prefer high for the (small amount of) ranged potential and unforging but dwellers is hard to look past.
2. Any better arrangements for the bus character loadout?
3. Is the 3rd noble (no items) in either list even worth it and could the BotWD noble go in the front rank to free up some points for something else? He is roughly 170pts

[sparkytrypod]

im not sure the extra noble adds much, he is just as fragile as your BSB really.

give BSB dragon armour if your taking high magic and bang, 5+ ward at least every turn.

the set up I am trying at the minute is :

archmage lvl4 high, book, talisman of endurance/crown of command, steed
mage lvl 1, life, scroll, steed
BSB BOTWD, dragon arm, shield, barded steed, lance
noble, dragon arm, barded steed, ench shield, luck stone, ogre blade

you just have to be a bit more carefull with your charges and positioning with the bus.
scroll caddy can, depending on what you roll, add regen, gives a wound back to the dragon, flesh to stone etc, I think for minimum investment he is useful. once his scroll has been popped he could be a redirector even or head to the front rank to soak up hits.

I think high magic and life are both good against the same armies really, (exception being other BOTWD elves & trolls )its what else you can get out of the lore in my opinion. and high tips the scales for me there with the ability to give wounds back to the dragon, break magic items, destroy units and wreck your opponents magic phase with fiery convocation, increase the initiative of your dragon if death is strong in your area.

that's just the way im leaning at the moment, all subject to change of course

[John Rainbow]

Thanks for the response sparkytrypod. I like the idea of fitting in the mage if I can but at the moment I haven't been able to. So, for this weekend at 2500pts I think I'm going for:

Prince on Star Dragon + Star Lance, D.Helm, 4++, OTS, Sh., HA
Archmage(4)[High] + steed, BoH, Crown of Command

Mounted Noble + Ogre Blade, Ench.Sh, DA (1+/6++)
Mounted BSB + BotWD, DA, lance, Sh (2+/6++)

15 Silver Helms + command, shields
6 Reavers + champ, bows & spears
6 Reavers + champ, mus, bows & spears

Frost Phoenix
Frost Phoenix
2 x Great Eagle