Vengeance Rising

[Natwest]

i dont know from reading your battle reports whether you do this or not, not trying to knock you but you do know that if a mage fails to reach the casting value of a spell he cant cast anything else that magic phase? just cant tell from your reports.

[Jimmy]

@Natwest - I do know that, where do my reports leave that open to guess somewhere?

@Mil - thanks a lot, getting as many in as I can because after the tournament in December I'll be on holidays with no warhammer until mid January!

@SM - thanks for taking the time to comment as usual. On Game 1 its handy to remember the losses but more importantly why they were as such, we can learn way more from getting defeated then from winning. Simply put it started from me miscasting turn 1 and taking that gambit, was it worth it? Absolutely not so lesson learned.

On Game 2 you wouldn't believe the amount of flank my battle reports have generated on the TK boards because they perceive the CD list as weak, I agree whilst its not soft I don't think a player should be judged by what armies he plays against, its not like I've got much control of what my opponents list writing abilities and lucky for me they're not WAAC players but moving on.

Lore of Hashut is Brutal, capabilities to make friendly units hatred, Ash cloud is incredibly cheap for what you get, target unit -1 to hit, -2 for shooting, can't move, and mages can only cast spells on itself and flammable. They also have a template S6 with D3 or D6 wounds which is just a nightmare amongst other things. Bull Centaurs have a 3+ as he had Great Weapons. His Infernal Guard somehow had a 4+ ward against flaming hence the reason I didn't bother with catapults against them but I think that comes from the characters in the unit.

In regards to HA3 I should have done exactly what you've said, I was probably still in a bit of a rage from the last game which is a very poor excuse but it would have been much better to have them charge a little later than so soon. Archers charged in the flank purely for the bonus, I was hoping to get protection off on them but lucky for me teh Bull Centaurs did a good job of dying before any return attacks came my way.

Unfortunately the Knights couldn't charge on Turn 3 because of Ashcloud that was cast on them.

On the Tomb Guard it certainly brought a smile to my face after slotting all those characters with ease. On the Overrun I probably should have done that the other option like you pointed out I didn't want to do because the Prince was sitting on a single wound and against great weapon wielding Centaurs I'm sure he would have dropped, this way I didn't lose any further points at all.

Once again an oversight on my behalf, I certainly should have charged in with the Archers and reformed them the previous turn for some much needed combat resolution and ti would have made the difference, not sure on the siege giant but because I would have been striking first I think I would have been fine if he'd not rolled the auto win combat result.

Thanks again.

On the overall list design I'm thinking about dropping the Hierotitan for a Necrosphinx to have another element of damaging power into the list. The Hierotitan is merely there for the +D3 to cast and I think I can live without that with Khateps re-roll. Besides if the Necrosphinx double teams with the Knights or the Tomb Guard then I'm sure amazing things will happen. Appreciate any input into this change.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for answers! Now I know better what was the reason for particular decisions. Indeed, if you have a valuable character hanging on the last wound it might be better to play safe. I didn't consider any of your moves as mistakes. It is simply easier to spot the additional options while reading the report.

It is quite often that when you post a report from a game that people focus on your opponent and do that in a negative way. As if they never made any mistakes themselves they criticize the person they don't even know. I think people take it too seriously and forget some players can have their own unique approach to the army list. What is more they are good players too and unlike the critics they decided to go for their own way not the most efficient way. Which actually is only perceived as such but does not have to be one.

In the situation like that I try to defend my opponent (if he cannot do that himself) but at the same time I found it is better to remain cool. If they are right about mistakes your opponent made, then ok but exploiting them is part of winning too. The fact that somebody brings softer list than usual means you have variety (always a winner for me) and that a player is willing to challenge himself with an army that might still be dangerous. In the end you can direct the discussion to the game and point out that there was this particular army for you to face. So what is the most beneficial is what could have been done differently within the environment you already had. Army list building should be left for another topic.

Speaking of which. I really like constructs so seeing another one in action would be great. If you feel like using Khatep on his own with the aid of Casket only and reinforcing your combat potential I say go for it! I am sure you will have some interesting moments with that model too. And since there is no right or wrong really you will enrich your experience with real games instead of endless theoretical discussions on the level of army list building.

Cheers!

[Natwest]

just where you and he both fail to meet casting value and carry on casting, but as long as you know, and i never really seriously thought you couldnt know,...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

It would help if you pointed out in which report/which turn it happened. I cannot recall such a situation.

[Natwest]

Really sorry Jimmy, my mistake, cant seem to find one anywhere, (thank you swordmaster), really good reports though

[John Rainbow]

A great read! It's nice to get the undead perspective from time to time! My only comments are along the lines of those made by Swordmaster. I would've pursued the Infernal Guard. Maybe you would've caught them (or not) but it looks like you would've overrun into the Goblins. More importantly it was also your turn and you could also charge the archers into the Centaurs as Swordmaster suggested in order to hold them up. You have complete magical dominance at this point so would reasonably expect to do well in CC after buffing the archers - I don't think the TG need much help against gobbos.

As it happens you won anyway and conserved a lot of points. Your move definitely makes sense in terms of trying to do this and mitigate against any further losses.

[Jimmy]

@Natwest - no worries, none required.

@JR - Thanks for the comments, as we all know its pretty easy to critique after a battle and really pick the game apart, for me its equally as easy to get confidence in game and not always make the best decision. Secondly right after combat is when we tend to rush so we can start on the next players turn which is probably when I especially should slow down and carefully plan ahead.

Game against Lizardmen tonight which I'm dreading but looking forward to. Just have to keep Khatep 24" away from that damn Slaan I think if I want my spells to perform. Fingers crossed we'll see some Saurus get cut down by the gaze attacks of the Stalkers (4+ to wound) and strip ranks away. Massed archers with smiting should help take care of skinks and a tight deployment will force his hand to move to me.

As usual a report will come in due time but I thank you for continuing to follow this log and commenting and for now undying glory to Nehekhara.

[John Rainbow]

Good luck with the game! I completely agree with your comments about 'thinking in the heat of the moment'. In the end, your decision may have been the best one anyway as it would always be in your favour. If you had overrun, there are all manner of things that could've gone wrong purely due to funky dice rolls. I guess it comes down to play style. Going after the unit would be an aggressive move whilst holding was more conservative and ensured that you won.

I only brought it up again as it was really the only point I saw at which another course of action jumped out at me. I'm sure there were some others in the game but they didn't seem as obvious so I'll leave them to the better players to find!

[Jimmy]

Thanks JR.

Battle 38 played last night, was a very interesting battle with mostly shooting and positioning making/breaking the game. I think in total there was 3 combats all game perhaps? Was very different.

I've got another battle against my Brother and his Bretonnians tomorrow morning so I'll endeavour to get that up as well. I thank you for your patience.

[Jimmy]

Friday night game against Lizardmen. I hadn't played against them at all this edition so was keen to lock horns with them but wasn't keen to see what the Slaan could do all tooled up, luckily he didn't come bearing every toy out of the jungle arsenal so I was let off the hook in that regard. I'm sure I've severely stuffed up the diagrams in some ways but I'll salvage what I can.

Opponent's list:

Slaan - Ethereal, +1PD, 4+ Ward, BSB, +1 Ld
Scar Veteran - Charmed Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might
Scar Veteran - Stuff
Skink Priest - Cube of Darkness
Skink Priest - Ruby Ring
31 Saurus Warriors - FC
5 x 10 Skinks
2 x 4 Terradons
2 x 5 Chameleon Skinks
1 x 9 Chameleon Skinks
3 x Salamanders
Carnosaur (Free Monster)

Deployment:



I was opting for a heavy corner trying to inflict as much damage as possible before getting into combat with his army. SSC's would target the Slaan and hope for the best and archers would mince up his skinks. That was the plan.

Spell selection:

Slaan - Fireball, Cloak, Sword, Flamecage
Priest - Comet
Priest - Blizzard
Khatep - Loremaster

Lizardmen won the roll off despite me having +1.

Lizardmen Turn 1

Everything advances up to cause havoc. The Terradons destroy the Horse Archers with rocks and flame cage goes up in the magic phase on the Tomb guard with IF detonating 6 Saurus Warriors and 1 TG drops. He loses one power dice and then 4 Tomb Guard die from a fireball and I finally dispel a comet attempt. Shooting drops 7 archers from my left flank.



Tomb Kings Turn 1

Carrion pull back, Hierotitan steps forward. I get Incantation of Vengeance off on the Slaans unit forcing them to move like Dwarfs for his turn. I then spirit leech a single Chamo skink and get 5 attempts at life leech but nothing. Desert wind and dessication onto the Saurus are dispelled. Both catapults scatter/misfire however the archers drop 3 chamo skinks, the terradons flee from the table from archer wounds and 7 skinks drop on the East flank.



Lizardmen Turn 2

Once again the reptile wall comes forward. Ruby ring targets the Necroknights however is dispel this, flaming sword goes through on the chameleon skinks, a 2D6 fireball yields a single wound from the Knights whilst I dispel another comet attempt. Blowdarts drop a further 2 archers from one unit and 8 from the other. The Salamanders take 5 wounds from the Knights leaving only two models remaining (I'd never come across these before so hadn't a clue what they were capable of until it was too late!).



Tomb Kings Turn 2

The Stalkers arrive nicely positioned behind the Saurus. I shuffle the Tomb Guard and swift reform the snakes to get them away from the salamanders. I go for a powered up smiting which is dispelled via the cube of darkness but luckily it doesn’t stop the magic phase. Light of Death is dispelled, Spirit leech drops another Chameleon skink and burning gaze is also dispelled. The Stalkers drop 7 Saurus whilst the western archers kill the remaining Chamo skinks causing the other unit to flee in panic. On the east only the Skink priest and a single skink remain standing from a volley. Once again both SSC's scatter way off target.



Lizardmen Turn 3

The Chameleon skinks rally. Ruby ring yields no damage on the Hierotitan however the Scroll of the Cursing word reduces the skink to dust. The Slaan throws a powered up Fireball at the Hierotitan causing 3 wounds. Finally a cage attempt on the giant is attempted but is dispelled. The skinks put a single wound on the Stalkers whilst the archers are wiped out and two horse archers fall prey to poison darts. The sallies unleash on the Tomb Guard and 16 of them perish.



Tomb Kings Turn 3

The Hierotitan charges into the Salamanders whilst the Carrion charge into the Skinks who flee and are easily cut down gliding the birds across the rocks. Desert Wind is dispelled but the backed up Light of Death destroys the chameleon skinks and causes the Terradons to flee in panic. Lastly Smiting fails to cast. The Stalkers dish out a further wound to the Saurus whilst taking 2 misfires and causing 4 wounds. Finally the infamous accuracy of the SSC pays off and a skull lands on top of the Slaan who fails his look out roll and his ward save and splatters across the desert floor. That's what I was looking for! The Archers all over continue mop up duty as the Priest and remaining skink are destroyed, and another unit is sent fleeing. The Hierotitan does enough damage on the Salamanders causing them to flee however they're cut up as they turn their backs on the Giant now on a single wound!



Lizardmen Turn 4

The Saurus charge into the Archers however with the loss of their Slaan they're unable to make the distance. The Terradons rally and the Skinks flee off the battlefield. Shooting leaves a single Stalker remaining whilst the Hierotitan is destroyed. 2 archers drop as well.



Tomb Kings Turn 4

I pull back with the Casket of Souls and move the Horse archers to block the Carnosaur. Desert Wind goes off healing some damage on units, a powered up smiting goes through whilst Desiccation goes IF onto the Saurus killing a few skeletons and causing Khatep a wound. Shooting drops another Saurus warrior and the remaining skinks at the front line are finished off. SSC's scatter however they drop 4 Saurus causing a panic test and they run towards the Archers.



Lizardmen Turn 5

The Carnosaur charges into the Horse Archers whilst the Saurus warriors continue to flee and lose another from a terrain test. 2 archers fall and a further wound is put onto the Stalker. In combat the Carnosaur fluffs some attacks leaving a single Horse Archer remaining.



Tomb Kings Turn 5

The Necropolis Knights charge into the Carnosaur whilst the Stalkers, Carrion and Archers all attack the Skinks. Protection and Smiting both go through onto the Knights allowing them to mince the Carnosaur up with relative ease. At this stage my opponent concedes.



Result - Tomb Kings Victory

Conclusion: This was a classic standoff with neither side willing to commit. I was happy to sit back and have a shoot out for a while however I should have structured my magic phases much better and went for several smaller 2 dice spells rather than the bigger 4 dice versions. There was little combats however it was still an interesting game and I did enjoy it. It was great being able to take out the Slaan, had that not happened I'm not sure it would have gone as well. We spoke at length after the game about the lore of fire on the Slaan and I certainly don't think it’s a powerful choice to take as the army has more than enough damage output from shooting so I don't think it’s the optimal lore for this army. For me deployment let me down in regards to the Salamanders and being green in terms of knowing what they were capable of. Had I known this I would have swapped over the Knights/Tomb Guard and deployed them in such a way to minimise damage taken from the templates. Also on magic again I probably should have been 6 dicing Light of Death for a few turns at least to attempt some damage on the Salamanders.

Anyway thanks for reading as usual and I look to any comments you have.

[John Rainbow]

I'm guessing you weren't too familiar with Lizards based on your comments so congrats on the win! It's always more difficult playing against an opponent you're less familiar with. I agree with your assessment of his Slann using Fire magic. It's an odd choice for a super powered casting character. I also don't think that Lizards make the best 'skirmishing/guerrilla' style list your opponent tried to make here - their strength lies elsewhere.

Anyway, onto stuff about how you did! I think you did pretty well considering that you weren't too familiar with Lizardmen. Obviously you've now realised how nasty Salamanders can be so you won't make any mistakes like that again! They're a really good unit - the monster/handler rule is stupid - and should probably be taken care of early. As you saw though, they aren't that great in CC.

I agree with your comments about your magic phase but it's always hard to tell what's right in the middle of a game, this is doubly true for magic when you also have your opponent's anti-magic capabilities to consider. My big question as to your play was in your deployment. Whilst a refused flank is always a decent conservative option, I'm not sure it was required here. Did you know what he had in his list before the game? If so I would've deployed differently and spread more across the board. You have more movement than him (bar the Terradons) and should have been able to envelop his army whilst forcing all his scouts to stay at arms length. Your shooting has a significant advantage at range so should take a severe toll on his units as they cross the board - especially if you were using Asp arrows or whatever against his cham. skinks and ignore all the negative modifiers.

[Elithmar]

Nice one!

Perhaps John is right though. It's annoying when chams scout into your deployment zone, although you planned for it. Perhaps you would have had more shooting options if all your archers were in a line facing North?

[Jimmy]

I was actually very happy with deployment although perhaps I should have dealt with the Salamanders much earlier. Noted for next time's game against the lizards.

Battle 39 coming up shortly.

[Jimmy]

I managed to squeeze another game in against my brother and his usual tin cans. This time a few subtle changes to his list involved the removal of the 20 bowmen, some magic item changes and the addition of fast cavalry.

His list:

Green Knight
Level 4 – Heavens – Crown of Command
Level 2 – Beasts – Dispel Scroll
BSB – Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield
10 KOTR - +1 Leadership (Prophetess here)
11 KOTR – Warbanner (BSB + Damsel here)
4 Pegasus Knights
30 Grail Pilgrims
2 x 5 Mounted Yeomen
2 Trebuchets
Cockatrice (Free Monster)

My list:

Khatep
Tomb Prince - GW, Tricksters Helm
2 x 20 Archers - Muso
2 x 10 Archers - Muso
3 x 5 Horse Archers
4 Necropolis Knights - Std, Champ
39 Tomb Guard - FC, +1 Movement
3 Stalkers
3 Carrion
Casket of Souls
2 x Catapults
Hierotitan (Free Monster)

Deployment:



Spell Selection:

Prophetess - Blizzard, Harmonic, Chain, Thunderbolt
Damsel - Wildform, Savage Beast

Bretonnian army prays for blessing.

Tomb Kings Turn 1

Some general shuffling around. The idea is to get the snakes into the flank of a lance eventually, use the centre units to hassle the lances whilst attempting to inflict as many casualties with the Stalkers deployed normally. The Tomb Guard would seal the deal hopefully coming in from the western flank. Protection goes up on the Hierotitan whilst Vengeance goes through on the KOTR with the BSB. Light of Death drops the Cockatrice in its tracks and jumps to the Treb taking out 2 crew members. Focusing on the enemies fire power first the Catapults unleash their payloads with the first hitting the ramshackle trebuchet and destroying it outright which panics the nearby Grail Pilgrims who turn tail and flee from the battlefield. True to form the second warmachine misfires losing a wound. Lastly one of the Mounted Yeomen falls from the saddle with a black fletched arrow from his chest.




Bretonnia Turn 1

Undeterred by the losses the army pushes forward as the Green Knight materialises from the western rocky outcrop set on taking out the Tomb Kings warmachines. The KOTR move despite the hex spell and lose a single knight. The Prophetess calls upon Chain lighting onto the nearby Horse archers dropping 3 however the spell fails to jump.



Tomb Kings Turn 2

My Tomb Guard attempt a long charge against the opposing lance but fail, the Necropolis Knights also charge the Mounted Yeomen who flee 8" taking them clear of danger. Another attempt at Vengeance was scrolled onto the same target and protection goes up on the Archers.



Bretonnia Turn 2

The dual lances aim for the respective archer blocks in front of them both easily making the charges, whilst the Green Knight begins his ploughing effect through the enemy lines. Savage Beast goes through onto the armies BSB whilst a powered up Harmonic Convergence tears at reality miscasting the Prophetess killing 2 Knights. The Trebuchet scatters from the Hierotitan.

The Green Knight predictably rolls the Catapult and his momentum carries him into the block of archers whilst the now augmented BSB does the same carrying his unit into the Horse Archers. The Prophetess' lance though isn't as lucky and after the combat and enough ward saves from me 2 archers remain pinning the lance in place.



Tomb Kings Turn 3

The Tomb Guard and Stalkers charge into the pinned lance in an effort to destroy the lance and over run into the rear of the BSB's lance. Khatep supports the undead force with Smiting however this is dispelled. Cursed Blades however goes through and lastly Desert Wind fully heals the Horse Archers moving them into a position to prevent the KOTR from reforming towards Khatep. Finally Protection goes up onto the archers with the Green Knight in front of them.

The Catapult loses a wound to a misfire result.

A challenge is accepted as the Tomb Guard captain lays down the Gauntlet promptly dropping the opposing knight champion before he also drops dead. After the Tomb Guard carve through the enemy only the Prophetess remains however easily holds thanks to the Crown of Command. The BSB still a fuel enraged beast easily cuts down the Horse archers and they over run a further 10".



Bretonnia Turn 3

The Mounted Yeomen rally and start the march of returning to the fight. Chain lighting is attempted onto the Hierotitan however I dispel this, the Prophetess then makes the ultimate sacrifice casting a powered up Iceshard Blizzard onto the Tomb Guard resulting in a miscast which cracks open the very fabric of reality tearing 18 Tomb Guard apart, destroying the remaining archers (I was really hoping to jump Khatep into these guys!) and wounding the Stalkers. After the smoke clears the Prophetess is no more. A single Horse archers drops as a Mounted Yeoman picks it off and the Green Knight begins to get overwhelmed by the bone wall and crumbles 2 wounds.



Tomb Kings Turn 4

Carrion charge into the Trebuchet.

The Tomb Guard reform to face the Pegasus Knights and the Stalkers move to get some shots onto the winged Knights with the assistance of Desert Wind healing some damage. Vengeance is dispelled on the KOTR whilst protection and cursed blades takes the Archers to full strength. Light of Death gets through onto the KOTR however yields no damage. Shooting drops a single Mounted Yeomen and the remaining panic 8". The Carrion destroy the warmachine with ease and the Green Knight crumbles.



Bretonnia Turn 4

The Knights level their lances and charge into the Horse Archers blocking the path to the armies Hierophant. Wildform goes off I attempt to use scroll of the cursing word on however it produces no results. Lastly Savage Beast goes off again powered up and the casting value is far too high for me to match. The KOTR destroy the Horse Archers and over run into the Hierotitan which I positioned poorly last turn.



Tomb Kings Turn 5

The Necropolis Knights charge into the Pegasus Knights as the remaining elements of the army position themselves to channel the remaining lance into the Tomb Guard. Khatep jumps to the safer archer unit whilst the Carrion clearly out of the battle continue back to their masters will. Desert Wind helps the movement out for the army and also heals back some damage here and there taking the Tomb Guard back up to 27 models. Smiting goes through onto the Knights whilst the Damsel struggling to maintain magical defence allows the Incantation of Vengeance through onto the knights.

The Catapult crew target the incoming fast cavalry which produces a wound however the Breton horsemen continue towards the battle.

In combat the Necropolis Knight champion duels the Peg captain doing a wound, the remaining riders produce enough to leave 2 Pegasus knights alive who break from combat and the Necro Knights reform to face the predicted combat. The Hierotitan is destroyed from damage and the Knights elect to hold rather than invoke the incantation of vengeance.



Bretonnia Turn 5

The Final push begins with the Green Knight aiming his sword for the Casket of Souls, the Knights also level their lances intent on selling their lives dearly and charge into the Horse Archers losing one of their number to a dangerous terrain check. The Pegasus Knights rally as do the armies fast cavalry.

2 archers drop from the mounted yeomen ranged attacks.

The Green Knight destroys the casket unleashing souls which take out 2 archers and destroy 2 stalkers (never seems to effect enemy units!!). The lance rides straight though the Horse archers into the Tomb Guard but not before another Knight falls from the incantation of vengeance.



Tomb Kings Turn 6

With the trap set all forces were set to motion. The Archers charged into the flank of the Knights whilst the Necropolis Knights charged into the other exposed flank whilst the Tomb guard took the brunt of the attack. Khatep casts protection on the archers, although cursed blades onto the same target is dispelled. An attempt to desiccate the Knights is also dispelled whilst Smiting goes through onto the Knights.

The Catapult makes a final attempt on the Green Knight however this scatters and kill 2 archers instead.

The BSB and Tomb Guard Captain go at it in a challenge but it’s a very one sided victory for the Bretonnian's getting the maximum overkill bonus. The Tomb King forces manage to drop 5 of the Knights before crumbling 2 wounds.



Bretonnia Turn 6

The Mounted Yeomen attack from both sides with one unit charging into Khatep whilst the other levels their spears into the Stalker. The Pegasus Knights charge into the Necro Knights flank to support their BSB. Finally the Green Knight attacks from the flank onto the archers.

The Damsel casts Wildform onto the Mounted Yeomen attacking the Stalkers however catastrophe strikes and the wizard miscasts killing 3 Knights and taking the Damsel along with the resulting detonation. 3 wounds are also caused on the Necropolis Knights.

In the final combat the Green Knight chews up 6 Archers, the Mounted Yeomen do a single wound to the Stalker. With the sheer numbers of undead pressing from all sides the Tomb Guard and Knights crush the remaining knights as the Green Knight crumbles before the BSB takes a mortal wound collapsing into the desert sands. As the armies Battle Standard drops to the sands the Mounted Yeomen making an attempt on Khateps life turn tail and flee into the setting sun to return with reinforcements.



Result - Tomb Kings Victory

Conclusion - Well that was certainly one of the most enjoyable games against Bretonnia I've had in a while and my brother seemed to enjoy it as well. I think with the inclusion of the Stubborn hat and banner of +1 Ld it certainly will boost his army effectiveness however in this case with the series of miscasts it was very unfortunate.

Ironically I didn't happen to miscast at all the entire game so I was pretty happy with that. Secondly my casualties were on the low side and I was left with most of my units on the table which is a nice prospect. Another high point of the game was not once but twice was the Green Knight dispatched from the material world.

Getting such a good body count on the first turn was fantastic, the Trebuchet, Cockatrice and the Grail Pilgrims running from the table. He rolled box cars for their panic test so the only thing that would have saved them was the BSB, my brother has noted the careful positioning of the BSB for future games. On his list I certainly think dropping the Bowmen for the fast cavalry is a good option and they seem to suit his playstyle much better and open up more tactical options as well.

From my point of view I was hoping that my Turn 3 charge could have ended the game, had I managed to wipe out the Knights and the Damsel then an over run would have possibly allowed me into the second unit of Knights right there saving the Hierotitan and allowing the Knights to get into combat sooner. All in all though the game turned out well channelling the last lance into the Tomb Guard which is something with the amount of chaff its hard to avoid. Sore point for me was the Stalkers which didn't equate to much at all. Entombing them from now on I think as they perhaps could have had a better effect deployed behind a lance (BSB's) to drop a rank or two off before they got to my lines.

Before the game started I'd wanted to run a completely different list to keep it fresh as perhaps the reports are becoming a little stale however I'm glad I didn't.

Thanks for reading.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy,

Congratulations on the wins!

As it happens often recently I will add more comments when I get more time to read and write but I really liked the moves I saw on the diagrams and wanted to say so.

Thanks for the reports, they are very good read and a nice change of perspective as TK are so much different from HE.

Cheers!

[pk-ng]

I'm not sold on the Battle Pilgrims and they seem to have done nothing much at all. I would suggest your brother drop them for another unit of knights.

[Jimmy]

I'm not sold on the Battle Pilgrims and they seem to have done nothing much at all. I would suggest your brother drop them for another unit of knights.

I've been trying to convince him of this for ages now but he loves the unit concept too much I think for the sake of effectiveness. Questing Knights would be better then them.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

In that case we need to think how to make the Pilgrims work better

[pk-ng]

In that case we need to think how to make the Pilgrims work better

haha +1

I'm not sold on the Battle Pilgrims and they seem to have done nothing much at all. I would suggest your brother drop them for another unit of knights.

I've been trying to convince him of this for ages now but he loves the unit concept too much I think for the sake of effectiveness. Questing Knights would be better then them.

I think Grail knights would be better. Small unit like 5 is good. Tight and powerful.

[~Milliardo~]

In that case we need to think how to make the Pilgrims work better

Agreed - he shouldn't ditch them if he really likes them that much, even if they are sub-optimal.

I think in that last battle, he just screwed up his deployment with them. They absolutely NEED to be within BSB range. The other problem is what is their use? They just seem like an S3 tarpit right now - I don't see how they really fit into the dynamic of the list right now. One possibility is to take a foot BSB, and use them as mid-field blocker for trebuchet/second wave that tries to be at the middle of things. The Knight Lances are so long that if he's center field, the back end of the lance should be within 12" of the bsb... another use off the top of my head is a beast damsel with Wyssans...

What are your brothers thoughts on them? ... or did you already explain it a few pages back?

Also, thanks for more reports!

[Iluvatar]

Thanks for the new report, Jimmy! A great read as usual. I admire you for finding enough time for painting, modelling and playing so much, even with 4 kids at home! It's a great encouragement for me: I have only 3 and find it hard enough to find time for the hobby!
I should also add that following your thread tempts me to start a TK army of my own. Maybe in a few months?

[Jimmy]

Thanks for the comments chaps.

@Milli - He just loves the background behind them purely.

@Iluvatar - Thanks for the kind words. It's certainly a juggling act getting it all to balance but I've got one model left to paint for the Tomb Kings and they're done which is exciting, a bit more scenery to go and of course lots more games to play and document. After January I'll get some bigger games in and some truly weird and wacky army lists to mix things up.

If you start with the Tomb Kings I wish you the very best of luck, it's taken me a long time but I'm finally starting to get the hang of them and enjoying it.

[Jimmy]

Well paid for the tournament yesterday and will submit my Khatep list tonight.

I'm already moving onto another list I've designed today purely to embrace teh fun element of the hobby and use units that I don't have a very good relationship with. Plan on changing very little in the list and just working with it, maybe magic items but that's about it. Once upon a time I just couldn't get Necropolis Knights to function in my armies and nowadays I'd struggle not to take them. The same can be said about Chariots and of course characters in chariots but I'll persist and see where it leads me.

I present to you the Creme Egg (hard exterior - gooey centre )

Level 4 – Rod
Prince – Chariot, ASF Sword, Potion of Strength
Herald – Chariot, Rampagers Standard
6 Chariots – FC, +1 Movement (3D6 with a re-roll +9 charge distance is pretty sweet)
20 Archers - Std
2 x 4 Knights – Std, champ
5 Carrion
Casket
2 x Necrosphinx

Prince and Herald join the chariot units and off they go. I plan on keeping the constructs pretty close by to beenfit from the less crumble damage and besides when the Hieropahtn croaks it then I'll be testing on Ld9 with a re-roll which is pretty solid. I originally had a king in the list however I dropped him and got Carrion instead. I figure he's just as easily de-charioted as a Tomb Prince. The elements of the list I don't like are the lack of re-directors and units I've come to love like Horse Archers.

Chariots will face off against S3-4 enemies and hopefully the first round combined with impact hits and the Princes few attacks can make a dent. I'll be begging for either Protection or Smiting off on them. Keen to play with the Necrosphinx though. Love the models and the background behind them.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Looks fun Jimmy, and fast!

[Jimmy]

Hopefully will get a chance over the weekend to have some fun with it.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy,

Sorry for little delay but I wanted to make some comments on the game against Lizards first.

This army is tough to beat. I haven't played against it before but multitudes of skinks with poisonous blowpipes is very dangerous for some regiments. In particular without heavy armor to speak about. Also, it is probably very annoying with it's combat avoidance and the fact that all these little buggers are worth noting if you kill them.

Your plan was good and although you started with deployment so typical for dwarven corner-hammer we all know it is not the way you always play. In this particular match up it was justified as you wanted to use your advantage in shooting (you must love 5+ to hit no matter what in this case ) and force the enemy to come to you thus entering the danger zone.

Some more questions/comments:

1. Turn 1 terradones destroyed horse archers. But how did they do it since they are still in front of the unit? I presume the idea was to fly over and then back again but was it actually possible to do so with not enough space behind horse archers?

2. I guess salamanders will be your target priority now

3. Isn't it funny that poison works on undead?

4. That catapult shot was very lucky (combined with the failed look out and ward save) but it was definitely worth trying and once in a while it pays off greatly!

5. It was very good plan to draw the skinks forward and as I have mentioned before you had tools for that shooting duel. I liked the way you used HT and Carrions as well as NK's. It looked to me like a mistake by your opponent that he put his salamanders in charge range and line of sight of the HT so it was great that you spotted the opportunity. Carrions were nicely kept in reserve and attacked when the enemy came too close. NK's took the attacks (as did TG) but timely withdrawal kept them intact and gave them a chance to counter and add some trophy to the overall victory.

Your own assessment of the game is very interesting too. I don't know if you noticed but we are more talking about other options just for the sake of discussion and gaining extra experience for future battles rather than about mistakes. That means you are really good with TK's now and the victories are the best proof.

Thanks again!

[Jimmy]

Hey SM

Thanks for taking the time to read up and comment on the battle. 5+ is certainly great to face off against an army full of skirmishers and takes away their main capability to avoid heavy casualties so it was nice to have it play as a large advantage in this game.

1. Yes that's correct, I'm not sure if this is legal however as wouldn't the units foot print have to physically be able to land or stay at least 1" away from an enemy unit? What are your thoughts?

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. From Turn 1 that's all the Catapults were aiming for. I was going to hit him, there was no question in that, it was just hoping he'd fail his LOS roll and I got lucky. Luck it turns out can be a rather large part of this game (more so for TK players)!

5. I think perhaps my opponent got a bit of tunnel vision with his salamanders and saw how many casualties he caused so he kept clawing to get them into a better position without thought of their safety. I actually thought my Hierotitan was on a flank charge but we had a bit of an argument there but because the hill he positioned them on he didn't make it clear where the unit was facing without doubt.

Appreciate the comments mate. Submitted my list during the week for Big December as well so I'm pretty excited about it and I just hope I can pull some good wins for the Tomb Kings and take a bunch of heads with some killing blow attacks with the Tomb Guard.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy,

I think that the terradons really should be able to fly over the target unit. So in theory, if they have enough of movement to go back and forth then I would say ok for that. But I would argue that in the case that they cannot really "land" behind the unit and come back it is gamey. I treat them as fast cavalry so if they don't have enough room to perform their multitude of reforms then they cannot, period. It's not that it was some kind of super dangerous target to try and pull such a trick either.

In the case of unit positioning, especially on the terrain I found one simple way to really make it much better for both players. I started to use it some time ago and my opponent from last game in Fluffyhammer used that as well. Basically, any time you position the regiment or a model make sure your opponent agrees with you on what is seen and what is blocked. Which arch the unit occupies and so on. That saves some silly arguments starting from "I wanted to position that unit to block you/see you". It is easy to forget things, not to see attack lines before it is too late and so on. But at least make your intentions clear. If you want to position that unit to block and divert make sure the other player agrees it does block his path and that possible overrun (for example) would not take the enemy units into contact with your own regiment if you want to avoid it.

Last game we had such situations indeed. My opponent asked me if I agree that his Engine was blocking the path to the flank of his skeleton and when we checked it happened it didn't. He then corrected that and all was good. Then I had a possibility to declare a charge through a gap between units and I first asked if it is possible. We measured and my opponent admitted it was indeed ok so only then I declared the charge.

Basically such way prevents lengthy and heated discussions when the situation is much more critical and both sides might be unwilling to find middle ground. And it does save time too!

Tournaments game can be fun as I have found out and you also had a good practice on a real gaming table! That is the advantage over UB where sometimes things do look differently

I will try to comment on the game against Brets before the tournament.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy,

Have some time to have a closer look at the report against your brother.

I was nicely surprised to see he added fast cavalry. I am a big fan of this unit type so it was great to see them in another army too. However, your brother does not seem to use vanguard moves at all. It is with mounted yeomen as well as with Pegasus Knights. Any reasons for that?

I was also wondering about his army as a whole. It seems that at the moment he favors two big lances. What about having 2 x 9 (characters included) + 1 x 6?

The deployment of both armies is very interesting. I like your formation, Jimmy. It is very good as it gives enough space for units to maneuver but at the same time they are all close enough to support each other. There is also your trademark double line that serves you so well. I noticed that this time you decided to deploy Stalkers as a normal unit. Didn't want to risk they might arrive too late (Edit: Just noticed the explanation in turn 1 description, I write as I read )?

Your brother had to focus on one flank with fewer units and his formation is compact enough. I presume the trebuchet ended up in one corner to lure out some regiments out of formation and at the same time got nice protection so that no horse archers have easy prey to fall upon. However, I was wondering why not to weight the flank even more (since the hills do not slow him down and even can add +1 to CR when you charge from them) and attack whatever is in front of the knights.

The opening was devastating and I am sure your brother was not happy with it at all. It seems for the future games it will be beneficial to position the units in 12" bubble from BSB to allow these re-rolls one needs so much. I have also found out it might be good to simply turn some units around so that they do not "look" at the casket and cannot be targeted by Light of Death.

It seems that Prophetess lance was quite unlucky in their attacks (with convergence on even more so) that they didn't manage to kill their enemy and overrun into safety.

I am not sure if I got it right but it seems to me that mounted yeomen on the East fled twice (once from the charge then again when failed to rally). If that it is the case then when they rallied in the following turn they could not move at once. It is only allowed when they fled from the charge. However, as they failed to rally their subsequent flee move was not any more the reaction to charge.

It was quite interesting way for Prophetess to fight back with dimensional cascade

This combined charge against the Knights was excellent and once again TG proved that they are good as a anvil but can hit back too!

Your brother is getting better with his army too, despite another loss. It was difficult to continue with heavy losses sustained turn 1 and I know how intimidating and disheartening it can be.

And no, the fact you are using the same army does not make the report any worse. In fact, one can see you are very good with it and the saga of battles between both armies continues. What I also like about them is that even if both of you make some changes they are not revolutionary and help both of you to build up the experience. I believe that in time we will see much closer games between TK and Bretonnia

Thanks again for the report!

Cheers!