Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - New Tactics Article
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 am
Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?
Great write up, Mr. D. :3
Great write up, Mr. D. :3
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Almost exactly (5.83333 wounds) kills it if my memory is correct for the stats.~Milliardo~ wrote:Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?
Great write up, Mr. D. :3
There is little benefit to mounting any HE Mage, but I see literally none with a Light Mage. The most common spells have 24" range and/or are magic missiles.KarsaOrlong wrote:How do you think the coven would work in a mobile format?
It makes them wish they'd stayed dead~Milliardo~ wrote:Statistically, what does a S7, 3D6 Banishment do to a Terrorgheist anyway?
Sadly that's not true at all either. Unless we interpret the statement that "A unit that enters as reinforcements cannot charge, as it has missed its opportunity to declare charges" as not being in the context of that movement phase- in which case it can never charge in the entire game. The "opportunity" it refers to is the declare charges phase, and since the Anvil allows a new charge declaration, that gives them the opportunity. While I wouldn't be entirely opposed to enemy Reinforcements never being allowed to charge (or march, for that matter) throughout the entire game, it's simply not how it is played by "serious" Dwarf players (And they're all very, very serious ). This is Dwarfs 101, one of the biggest tricks up their short sleeves; ask someone like Lord Anathir who plays the army properly. Miners turn up and charge that turn: it's one the biggest reasons that the Anvil is so reviled! I don't want to start another rules argument or anything, but I don't know any tournament organiser who would ever rule otherwise (That doesn't mean your gaming group should do so, just that, all the largest collections of great players that I know all have reached the same consensus. They have been wrong before, mind you ). It's a bit like the Seer Staff thing- occasionally someone goes "oh that's not legal" but by now, we all know how it works...Brewmaster_D wrote:@ Stormie - Oh man, I'm glad they FAQ'd that. I was worried that Thorek was a little too easy to kill... :S However, the match would have likely still ended the same way - as detailed earlier, it is not legal for the Miners to charge in the turn they arrive, so the combat with Thorek was unavoidable.
I'm not sure it would have mattered much here - either way his marauders are blocked by the Chaos Warriors. Personally, I would have considered ranking them up and facing them at the swordmasters in the east with the free combat reform. Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn? There's just so many potential charge arcs that his hands were really tied.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:2. I don't quite understand why he charged the eagle with both units. I understand his marauders had mark of khorne so they had to overrun but this attack was a mistake. Because they had to overrun they could not reform and presented a flank to Swordmasters. Very bad idea. If he really had to charge the eagle (and not doing so yet would mean some probelms for you to charge him instead) he should have done so with one unit only. But I still don't think it was a good idea.
They were about 19" away - so not a great chance of making the charge. I would have definitely fled with the Dragon Princes, which would have brought them in the middle of the action in the center, however with any overruns there, they would have just kept fleeing and likely popped out of inside of the circle. This would have put the dragon in an awful spot, setting him up for 2x banishments without having the opportunity to do anything.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:3. If his dragon was 20-21 inches away from the second eagle and DP I would charge them. He could destroy them in one go and then overrun into Swordmasters thus preventing them from flank charging marauders and destroying two units in single turn. He would also be safe from banishment while in combat. That is why I think it was quite risky on your part to refrom like that. You could of course flee with both units as charge reaction but that would complicate things greatly. Although in the end you were rewarded with much better combat phase due to that reform do you think it would not be safer to simply overrun and be away from LoS of the dragon and marauders?
I don't have the stats handy here, but the T6 of the machine coupled with the pseudo 5+ ward of the crew make this thing a royal pain to deal with. The crew does work like a ward save even versus close combat attacks. If my memory is correct, it looks like about 20 white lion attacks or 30 swordmaster attacks. The Dragon Princes don't really stand a chance at killing it, but they do have good armour and eliminate its stomp attack. If there wasn't a dragon on the field, this thing would be the first to enjoy being banished, I think.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:4. I am also interested in the little and unnoticed combat between WL and Hellcannon. How is it really resolved? Do you get to hit the cannon only and then randomize the attacks? I will check it anyway but the main question is which unit in our army has the best chance to kill it? Lions, Swordmasters or maybe even DP?
Monster and Handler rules. Aka the worst rules in 8th edition! When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, on a 5+ remove a handler instead of wounding the monster. Handlers are an "ablative save" for the monster, plus they provide attacks and leadership. Otherwise they don't exist.Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:4. I am also interested in the little and unnoticed combat between WL and Hellcannon. How is it really resolved? Do you get to hit the cannon only and then randomize the attacks?
I agree than a second Tzeentch caster would be better, but remember that Treason does not work against immune to psych, so it is completely useless against Daemons, VC, TK and often useless against WoC and Orcs. At only one attack each, it does not do that much to ogres. Basically it should be great against DE, Dwarfs, HE, and semi-useful against a few other armies. Plus remember the other two Tzeentch spells are AWFUL.Curu Olannon wrote:Also, I would make both Sorcerers Tzeentch marked to get Pandaemonium (a great spell with this list) and Treason (great for handling units this lord doesn't wanna face, e.g. Lions, Chosen, Executioners...).
It's all in the mind, my friend, all in the mindBrewmaster_D wrote: I'm sure it had a psychological effect on him as well, because now he needed to recover from a pretty serious points deficit, and it was only the first round.
I think I would be more cautious with entire army approach in the first place and let you come to me. He has fast army so there is no need to be hasty. He had shooting superiority in terms of range so before you were in range for banishment he could have 1-2 shooting rounds to soften you up (always good even for WoC).Brewmaster_D wrote:I'm not sure it would have mattered much here - either way his marauders are blocked by the Chaos Warriors. Personally, I would have considered ranking them up and facing them at the swordmasters in the east with the free combat reform. Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn? There's just so many potential charge arcs that his hands were really tied.
He was in the range of 2 x banishment after his move anyway so I think it was better to at least try and create more confusion. Fleeing would prevent your own charges next turn and he could safely charge your eagle as well. 19" with swiftstride when you need to get 9+ is risky but not that unlikely. Again, there were no good decisions for him to make here.Brewmaster_D wrote:They were about 19" away - so not a great chance of making the charge. I would have definitely fled with the Dragon Princes, which would have brought them in the middle of the action in the center, however with any overruns there, they would have just kept fleeing and likely popped out of inside of the circle. This would have put the dragon in an awful spot, setting him up for 2x banishments without having the opportunity to do anything.
You are right and I will try to remember your teachings as big flying monsters will be difficult for me to catch However, in that particular situation you could be in good position behind enemy lines and that was I was referring in terms of being out of line of sight. I am not saying it would be better but I think it is an option to consider in general, especially that you had many units in the front arc of marauders and could close in so he would be in difficult situation not knowing who to face and which units leave behind his back.Brewmaster_D wrote:I think the key when facing a large flying target like that is to control its movement using your own, rather than try to avoid it by running out of line of sight. Turn 1 was my attempt at that, which was pretty successful, presenting him with nothing but tough choices.
Dabber has already answered my quiestion (thanks dabber! ) so it seems I remembered correctly and I also checked RB to make sure. So it kind of has 8 wounds and since it is unbreakable it does not matter. Well, I guess I need to avoid it as long as I am not able to bring 2+ WL/SM against it and even then it can be very bloody.Brewmaster_D wrote:I don't have the stats handy here, but the T6 of the machine coupled with the pseudo 5+ ward of the crew make this thing a royal pain to deal with. The crew does work like a ward save even versus close combat attacks. If my memory is correct, it looks like about 20 white lion attacks or 30 swordmaster attacks. The Dragon Princes don't really stand a chance at killing it, but they do have good armour and eliminate its stomp attack. If there wasn't a dragon on the field, this thing would be the first to enjoy being banished, I think.
As to what he could have done turn 2: CHARGE! The dragon seemed to be sufficiently close that the charge was pretty certain (16-18" charge, it looks like, but maybe it isn't accurately depicted in chronicler).Brewmaster D wrote:Any thoughts on what he could have done differently this turn?
Actually, not true. You cannot make any reaction to a charge resulting from an enemy unit overrunning/pursuing into you.Bewmaster D wrote:The Dragon Princes, on average, would have popped out just beyond the unit, smack in the middle of the chaos in the center. Since the only charge reaction for an already fleeing unit is to flee, his charge into the eagle and subsequent overrun would have forced the Dragon Princes out of the middle again, regardless of what angle he chooses.
So a pursuit into them with the marauders would have killed the DPs, since you can't make a reaction, and it would have destroyed them. Also note that he would have stopped his overrun there, and not pursued past as the rulebook says to move then into contact THEN remove them, not remove them and make the full normal overrun distance, which also has the added advantage for him of not bringing him far out of position.BRB pg 58 wrote:Even if the charged unit was already fleeing, it still cannot take any charge reactions. Move the pursuers into contact with it as you would for a unit completing a charge against a fleeing unit... The fleeing unit is then immediately destroyed and the pursuing unit is allowed one final reform.
Aye +1 to this. Something to do with the wording.Stormie wrote:Sadly that's not true at all either. Unless we interpret the statement that "A unit that enters as reinforcements cannot charge, as it has missed its opportunity to declare charges" as not being in the context of that movement phase- in which case it can never charge in the entire game. The "opportunity" it refers to is the declare charges phase, and since the Anvil allows a new charge declaration, that gives them the opportunity. While I wouldn't be entirely opposed to enemy Reinforcements never being allowed to charge (or march, for that matter) throughout the entire game, it's simply not how it is played by "serious" Dwarf players (And they're all very, very serious ). This is Dwarfs 101, one of the biggest tricks up their short sleeves; ask someone like Lord Anathir who plays the army properly. Miners turn up and charge that turn: it's one the biggest reasons that the Anvil is so reviled! I don't want to start another rules argument or anything, but I don't know any tournament organiser who would ever rule otherwise (That doesn't mean your gaming group should do so, just that, all the largest collections of great players that I know all have reached the same consensus. They have been wrong before, mind you ). It's a bit like the Seer Staff thing- occasionally someone goes "oh that's not legal" but by now, we all know how it works...Brewmaster_D wrote:@ Stormie - Oh man, I'm glad they FAQ'd that. I was worried that Thorek was a little too easy to kill... :S However, the match would have likely still ended the same way - as detailed earlier, it is not legal for the Miners to charge in the turn they arrive, so the combat with Thorek was unavoidable.