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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:23 pm 
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The way I see it, the Coven is so expensive that your elites will be lacking numbers, as such they really need to be able to treaten things that are dangerous for MSUish elites, in this case big bad flyers and tough regenmonsters are top priority. Remember that a 5th mage gives another option of shems, too.

Vs the aforementinoned big bad flyers, s7-s8 are very different as most of these are T6, 3+ (dragons, bloodthirsters).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Guys,

While I eagerly await my games later this week, I've been keeping myself busy painting my troops in preparation for the tournament. I've got quite the project ahead of me if I'm going to be ready in time. I'm trying to decide what's the best method of painting for me - I find that if I try to do it like line work (one layer at a time) I get really bored really fast. If I do one model at a time, it just seems like it takes forever. I ended up settling on a hybrid of the two. 4 models at a time, hopefully keeping me interested, and somewhat efficient as well. Dabble in a few characters in between for flavour, and I should be good to go!

Here's my first batch of 4 white lions:

Image

I'm sticking to my green metallic theme from last year to keep the army looking unified, however I decided to add a couple brighter layers onto the green to brighten up the army a bit. These guys are about 95% complete, with a few fine details to go

Image

And here's my archmage. I wanted to really show that High Elf mages aren't bound to one school of magic, so I tied in light in the orb on his wand and shadow on the base he's floating on.

I'm really excited to see the White Lions all put together in a unit. The fiery accents on the green stand out, and really makes them interesting to look at.

As with anything I post, I'd love to hear feedback or criticism! I also would like to fit a conversion in somewhere in my army, but I'm unsure of where. My list doesn't really have a centerpiece model that I can really show off, so I'm open to any ideas anyone has.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:07 pm 
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This is looking great! I can imagine that the Lions will fit in with the rest of the force while still looking unique (i.e. special). As for the Archmage, I like it a lot! The various colours make him stand out while at the same time he's definitely part of your army. How much do you have left to paint and how much time do you have?

I'm just working on modelling my last few changes myself. Apart from the dragons I'm awaiting there's only a handful of models to go before I'm at least done modelling my army. Changing from 20 cavalry and 35 spears to over 50 Archers and a horde of Lions necessarily meant that I had to change a lot. Not to mention my unit of Swordmasters whom I had completed :(

It's good to see some models and painting every now and then in army blogs I think. It adds a personal touch (every time I read your BRs I think of greenish High Elves) and reminds us that there are more aspects to this hobby, which is indeed a big part of why it's so much fun ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Thanks so much for the kind words! It's pretty funny how many times people walk up to a table I'm playing at and go "Hmm, what have we here. Warriors of Chaos and Wood Elves". I like that it's against the grain though, much like your own is.

Here's what I have left to paint:

32 x Spearmen
14 x Swordmasters
14 x Swordmasters
1 x Mage
22 x White Lions (I need a horde of these guys for my 2v2 list)

and I have 66 days left. I'm clipping along at a pretty good pace, finishing about 4 models every 2 days. If I have time, I'd like to go back and touch up a couple of last year's models, but that's not mission critical. So I think I'm in good shape if I dig down and stay focused.

I can definitely feel for you with the army switch. Having said that, that Dragon is going to be *so* worth the effort when it's done.

D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:39 pm 
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those white lions and mages are looking sweeeet!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Nicely done. I am debating whether to settle for a Green autumn theme or a purple snowy one myself and you make the decision harder with those beautifully painted models!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:51 pm 
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MR. GRUMPY wrote:
Nicely done. I am debating whether to settle for a Green autumn theme or a purple snowy one myself and you make the decision harder with those beautifully painted models!


I would vote Purple snowy because it's less common. Though Brewmaster's green theme is really nice, Avelorn armies are becoming increasingly popular ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:39 am 
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Hey Guys!

Thanks once again for the kind words regarding my paint job. It's tough getting it done, so hearing positive things from you all really helps me stay on track and motivated.

Tonight, I had the opportunity to play at the local game shop and try out my list once again versus a random opponent. Naturally, we do the random selection and I draw my friend who fields a Thorek gunline. He switches dice with somebody (since we play each other all the time), and who do you think is the first model out of the case?

Why, Thorek, naturally.

So I present to you my latest battle:

Thorek Gunline - A Recipe for Indigestion

His list was as follows:

Thorek
Runepriest, Master Rune of Balance
Master Engineer

20 x Thunderers, Shields
10 x Thunderers, Shields
16 x Quarrellers, Shields

20 x Miners, Full command, Steam Drill
20 x Miners, Full command, Steam Drill

1 x Cannon, Rune of Burning, Rune of Forging
1 x Grudge Thrower, Rune of Accuracy, 2x Rune of Penetration, Engineer
1 x Bolt Thrower, Rune of Seeking, Engineer
2 x Organ Guns

1 x Bottle of Elf Tears, collected from all the elves from previous battles

I took my standard list, as detailed on the first page of this thread.

The fun starts with spell rolling - I get banishment with my first level 1, which I obviously trade for the default. I need the +4 to cast in this game to try to power through the Dwarven magic devense. I roll the level 1 mage, and get Pha's. Great. I can either take Pha's on the level 1 and increase my odds of getting timewarp and banishment, both of which would be incredibly useful in this match, or I can take the default and hope for the best, but surrender to the fact that I'm probably not getting Timewarp, Banishment and Pha's on my Archmage.

In the end, I stick with Pha's on the level 1, and roll the Archmage's spells - 2,3,4,4. Probably the worst possible roll. I end up with the following spells:

Level 1: Pha's Protection
Level 1 Noble: Shem's Burning Gaze
Level 2: Pha's, Banishment
Level 4: Speed of Light, Light of Battle, Net of Amyntok and Banishment

I don't even want to start thinking of what the odds are of a lineup like that happening...

He rolls his spells in a mocking fashion (he was a great sport, we both had a laugh), and we move on to deployment.

Deployment

He's got very few drops, so naturally I take advantage of whatever concessions I'm given. I win the roll of for first drop and let him have it, so by the time I've dropped two eagles, a unit of archers and the spears, he's on to characters. In the end, it looks something like this:

Image

I position myself to quickly overwhelm his Western flank, without getting too close to the edge where the miners could disrupt my plans. The exception here being the Dragon Princes, who I expect to be out of the way by the time that happens.

My goal here, obviously, is to shut down Thorek as soon as Elvenly possible. I also intentionally rank up the Spears to try to tempt him to shoot them instead of my swordmasters. I plunk the BSB with the ironcurse in there as well to help them tank some of the inevitable hits.

I manage to win the most important roll versus a list like this and get first turn.

High Elves, Turn 1

Image

Not much strategy here - I move up my fast movers on the western flank to present a couple charge threats. The Eastern eagle sits itself behind the building in the East, protecting it from the quarrellers. The coven stays relatively close to each other, while still doing their best to close the gap between them and the enemy.

I roll up my first, oh so important magic phase and get... snakeyes. He steals one of my power dice, and after a channel + 2 for the banner on my side and +5 dispel dice on his side, the result is a 4 v 6 magic phase. I have a couple options - Either throw 2 x 2 dice spells and hope for the best with my casting, or try to get off one large effect spell, again, hoping for the best. In this scenario, I opt to throw all 4 at a powered up Pha's, because I see the benefit of it being much, much greater than single target pha's or lower powered banishments (that's all I could cast reliably with 2 dice). He throws his 6 dice and dispels it easily. Sigh.

Shooting sees me put 3 wounds on his Western Thunderers, and we move on to his turn.

Dwarves, Turn 1

Image

Movement is... well...it's definitely a phase.

I brace myself for the pain as we move in to shooting. He starts off with the Grudge Thrower, and drops the template on my block of spears - if nothing else, gunlines are relatively predictable. A direct hit and some horriffic wounding and saving rolls sees 19 of my spearmen fall to the ground.

Luckily, his shooting attempt with the organ gun on my dragon princes is a bust, as it misfires, and he forgets the Dragon Prince's ward vs. flaming attacks, so his cannon shot bounces off them as well. The bolt thrower puts two wounds on my Western eagle, and the second Organ Gun and Thunderers put 7 wounds on my White Lions.

Thorek strikes his runes, as he's apt to do, and Wrath & Ruin on ancient power effects two of my units. He chooses the Dragon Princes and the Eagle in the East. The Dragon Princes manage to save all of their wounds, but the Eagle isn't so lucky.

I dust myself off, and we move on to my second turn

High Elves, Turn 2

Image

I have two charges - the dragon princes into the diminished thunderers, and the Eagle into the Bolt Thrower. The Organ gun's misfire has stopped it from shooting next turn as well, so I'm safe to leave it for the incoming swordmasters. The rest of the army moves up into place for turn 3 charges.

Magic sees me roll a 5 and a 1, and after failing to channel and getting 1 from the banner, I'm looking at a 6 v 10 phase. I cut my losses, and toss it all at a powered up banishment from my level 2 on Thorek. What do you know? Irresistable force. 9 S7 hits results in 4 wounds making it through (He rolled really well for his 5+ armour save), killing Thorek's bodyguard and little buddy, and putting a wound on him.

The Dragon Princes survive the stand and shoot from the thunderers without a scratch, and kill all but one of them in return. The lone dwarf flees, but the Princes hold and reform to face Thorek, who is suddenly feeling very lonely.

The eagle doesn't fare so well, failing to do a wound and falling to the engineer's attacks.

Dwarves, Turn 2

Image

With their rerolls from the steam drills, both units of miners shows up to the fight, with the first positioning itself to fire into combat versus the Dragon Princes, and the second, mysteriously, comes out to face my unit of archers.

Shooting sees him dish out 8 shots from the Organ gun and all the shots from the quarrellers on my White Lions, reducing their numbers to 3, and put all the shots from the Thunderers on my spears, reducing them to 6. The Bolt Thrower skewers two swordmasters, and the Grudge Thrower fires wide despite its rerolls.

Thorek attempts an ancient power Oath & Honour rune to shoot the miners into combat and... FAILS! With his helper killed, his result of 2 on the miscast table means no runes this or next turn.

High Elves, Turn 3

Not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, I set my troops in motion:

Image

The White Lions and the Spears trade off targets - the lions are in the thunderer's flank, saving them from stand and shoot and reducing return attacks. The Dragon Princes charge Thorek and both swordmasters charge their respective warmachines. The southern archers attempt to musician reform, but fail to do so, so I face them towards his unit and hope for the best. I had hoped to get two full rounds of shooting - one now and one stand and shoot when he charges, so things are looking pretty dire for them. In a competitive situation, I probably would have just run away, but I didn't want to call too much attention to the Dwarves stumpy legs in a friendly match.

Magic finally comes up big for me - 5 and a 6 base roll, and 3 channels. The result is 12 v 11. I start off with a 3 dice net attempt on his grudge thrower... and roll a 1, 1, 2. I can't catch a break this game lol!

I make a small mistake this round in that I resolve the Dragon Prince combat first instead of doing the swordmasters south of them and allowing them to overrun and join the fun. Regardless, the Dragon Princes fail to wound Thorek, and he kills one in return. Tied Combat.

The White Lions/BSB score a perfect round of combat, but his steadfast allows him to stick around. He reforms to rank up and face the tattered remnants of the unit. The spears manage to kill a cannon crew member, but it holds on stubborn.

Dwarves, Turn 3

Image

Both of his units of miners make their charges, with stand and shoot rolling well and dropping 3 miners.

Shooting sees his Grudge Thrower misfire - again, even with his engineer's rerolls (misfired on the reroll attempt, trying to improve his original scatter). The cannon stops short on the bounce, and the quarrelers kill 4 Archers in the mage bunker.

In combat, the spears put another wound on the cannon, and again it holds with steadfast.

Thorek manages to make a ridiculous number of saves, so no wounds are put on him. The Miners in the north lose 10 models to the Swordmaster's attacks, and only manage 3 wounds in return. They hold on steadfast. In the South, in a huge upset, the Archers put 5 wounds on his miners, with the miners putting only 3 on the archers. However, the standard, charge and rank on his part allows him to win by 1, but the archers hold.

Finally, the newly reformed Thunderers manage to put the final 3 wounds on the White Lions, sealing the deal for that unit.

High Elves, Turn 4

Image

Not much movement on my behalf, with most of my units engaged.

Magic is once again 5 and 1, resulting in 6 v 10 with the loss of the banner of sorcery, but one channel. I throw it all at the Ring of Corin, hoping to take out Thorek's magic armour or the Master Rune of Balance. I don't get irresistable force, though, and he swamps the roll with 10 dice.

Combat sees me put one wound through Thorek's armour and ward save, and it goes on for another round.


EDIT: I just looked it up, and the Anvil only has a ward save vs. Shooting. /sigh, so many rounds of combat wasted


The Spearmen fail to wound the cannon, so it sticks around for another turn.

The Noble does two wounds, and the S3 troops are unable to put any wounds back on him. They hold on steadfast.

The swordmasters finish up the Miners, and the Southern miners finish up the archers.

Dwarves, Turn 4

Image

Shooting sees the bunker attract a lot of attention. Between all of the shots, he effectively levels the unit.

Combat goes my way, however, and the swordmasters manage the last wound on Thorek. The entire store erupts into cheers, and I find it hard to concentrate with all the pats on the back I'm getting. At least that's how it played out in my head.

Thunderers whiff their attacks again, and hold on steadfast and the spears finally finish off the Organ Gun

High Elves, Turn 5

Image

I declare my charges, and resolve them carefully - the swordmaster charge into the Grudge thrower clears up the pathway for the Dragon Princes to hit the backs of the Thunderers. They make their charge as well, with the closest point actually being through my own unit, but their one allowed wheel makes their charge legal. The spears charge in to the cannon, effectively shutting down his shooting.

Magic is *another* abysmal phase, so bad that I stop keeping track at this point. No spells get through despite Thorek being out of the picture.

In combat, the Dragon Princes maximize to be able to run past the BSB once the Thunderers are done, and this is exactly what they do. They run right in to the Quarrelers.

The Swordmasters grind through the Grudge thrower, and slam into the Master engineer. The Spears do a wound to the cannon, but it holds on steadfast. The crews have been chipping away at their numbers at this point, and only 3 or so are left.

Dwarves, Turn 5

Image

His Runepriest charges the flank of the spears, and this about wraps up the movement phase.

In combat, the Dragon Princes cut a swath into his Quarrelers, who fail to do anything with Stand and Shoot. The hold on steadfast. In the North, the Spears manage to kill the cannon, but the Runepriest puts two more wounds on the spears. This leaves them with one model. The swordmasters cleave the Engineer, and slam into the Runepriest. At this point he concedes the game.

In the end, I lost:

Level 2 Mage
Level 1 Mage
11 x Archers
14 x Archers
18 x White Lions w/ Banner of Sorcery
2 x Eagles

Total: 1028

He Lost:

Thorek
Master Engineer
10 x Thunderers
20 x Thunderers
20 x Miners
2 x Organ Guns
1 x Grudge Thrower
1 x Bolt Thrower
1 x Cannon

Total: 2040 - ish?

Regardless, it's a solid victory for the magic inept High Elves!

After Battle Thoughts:

If I had to write up an article on how to combat gunlines, the first point would be "win the roll for first turn". It makes such a big difference it's not even funny. I hate games where one dice roll has such a huge outcome on the match.

So a few thoughts, first regarding my opponent's side of things:

- He needed those miners up supporting his artillery and Thorek, not off chasing archers. The Northern block was placed well, but the Southern one was way out to lunch
- He didn't shoot my swordmasters! I expected these guys to be craters by turn 2, but he ended up focusing all of his effort on the Lions and the Spears.
- With multiple units instead of large blocks heading his way, the effect of Wrath and Ruin is diminished. It's not possible to slow my entire army down with this, so I was able to quickly overwhelm his shooting.
- Thorek sucks. I hate playing against him. I'd make the same argument against him that most people make against Teclis (and rightfully) - games where it comes down to one model are boring. There, I said it!

And a few more about my end of things:

- My magic phase was a cataclysmic failure with the exception of one spell - Banishment on Thorek. Getting this through at just the right time allowed me to clear out his reroll, which resulted in his critical Rune failure in turn 2. Without this, it might have been a whole new ballgame.
- I think with more standard winds rolls and spell rolls, the casting strategy of spamming low level spells would have really paid dividends in this match. Unfortunately in the one phase where I had a chance to test this theory out, my archmage failed a comically easy spell (10+ on 3 dice)
- Despite all of this, I'm happy with how the army performed. There are enough threatening elements to keep even this much shooting at bay, and even with diminished numbers, it still packs a punch.
- Did I mention I hate Thorek?

So that about wraps it up! Once again, I'd love to hear your feedback or criticism. It was a bit of a flukey match, but at the end of the day you need to account for that, because it *will* happen.

I've got another match coming up this weekend as well, versus the WoC Dragon list, so hopefully I'll be able to put up a report where I get a bit more mileage out of my magic phase.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:18 am 
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Hi Brewmaster!

Congratulations! That was not a good match up for our fragile Elves yet you managed to win and without much of a magic support! (although that IF Banishment definitely helped :))

I see you opted for "Full steam ahead" approach and it seems to pay off nicely. Of course, as you said already, that first turn was very important and let you attack on your turn 2. Although I liked the turn 3 charge better, as it showed nicely that one can avoid stand-and-shoot too. Good for you that BSB held long enough for the other units to help him with thunderers. Dwarves are quite tough and their stubborn crews also can hold you down long enough for other regiments to ruin your plans.

I have a couple of questions/comments:

1. Do you think that similar approach, i.e. rushing forward full speed, would be as good if you had to move as second? Or would it be beneficial to deploy differently and use wide flanking maneuver?

2. The more I see how much elves suffer from shooting the more I am wondering about making think lines of my units to make the template weapons less efficient. I even think I would go with WL living shield here as they still have some save against thunderers. Do you think such formations would help you? With swift reform you do not lose that much in terms of movement.

3. I am a little surprised at his artillery but maybe it is not that efficient after all. I do not make a mistake of underestimating it and his shooting phase did cost you life of many warriors. But after that initial hit by grudge thrower I expected equally massive fire next rounds.

4. I wonder of the only option to get your magic spells through is simply casting them with many dice, hope for IF and then hope for something that does not kill your mage or does not make him forget his spells. On the other hand, as your battle showed very well, that single spell helped enormously so if in the end you even lose the archmage but win the battle it might be a good exchange.

Thanks a lot for the report once again, it definitely helps to plot my own plans against cowardly Dwarves with their smelly and laud weapons :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:03 am 
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I just have one question. How did they get two banishemnts?

BRB pg.490 wrote:
If a model has no choice over whic spell(s) it knows, either because it is fixed by the model's rules, or because it has "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection.



edit@ forgot to say Seerstaff does not help with that rule.

edit 2 @other than that I really like your list, I might even give it a try after I prove LSG is made of win

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:26 am 
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Regarding your list, be aware that Iron Curse Iron on your BSB'er is illegal. Both Radiant gem of hoeth and the Iron Curse Iron are Enchanted items [-X .

And great game btw :wink: !

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Nice Battle report. Its alot of fun to read all these. Thanks to you and all the other people on here that take the time and effort to write these up. Congrats on the win.

A few comments on the dwarves as I'm to new with High Elves to really add anything.

I think the Dwarf player stretched his deployment out a little to far. He would have been better off deploying to the right of the hill I think. That way he still could have covered the flanks and make it harder for you to isolate his units. He didn't need to use the hill for the war machine's. He didn't have alot of units, so blocking thier LoS should not have been a problem.

I feel he would have been better off using Quarrellers with great weapons than thunderers. That way he would not have to deploy on the 12" Line and if he got first turn lay into you with everything but Organ Guns. If he didn't get first turn as in this case he be farther back giving him the potential for another round of shooting. The small units of handgunners just can't put out enough damage to take on anything other than small units of archers or spears, and against Dragon Princes there's no way in hell Str 3 is going to dent that armour.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Is that a hill on his side, or something else? If a hill, how was your level 2 able to see Thorek to hit him with Banishment?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
If I had to write up an article on how to combat gunlines, the first point would be "win the roll for first turn".
I completely agree. To a massive extent, first turn decides the game.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
- He didn't shoot my swordmasters! I expected these guys to be craters by turn 2, but he ended up focusing all of his effort on the Lions and the Spears.
- With multiple units instead of large blocks heading his way, the effect of Wrath and Ruin is diminished.
In my opinion, it is not that your army list makes Wrath and Ruin less effective, it is that he hit the wrong things. If he hits the two Swordmaster units, the damage wrecks their combat ability and the movement penalty may keep them out of combat another round. The Dragon Princes were too close for the movement to matter a great deal, so they were not a good target.

I feel this game also shows he is fielding a poor gunline. He got relatively little shooting damage from the core shooters, and no close combat staying power either. That would not have changed if he went first, since the Thunderers would be out of range turn 1. Two bigger blocks of crossbows, with great weapons, would be more effective. Or just regular Dwarf Warriors, as combat units to block charges on the artillery. He also does a lot better if his artillery is deployed further back, especially the Organ Guns. The upper right corner of the map is a better position for him than the hill.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
- Thorek sucks. I hate playing against him. I'd make the same argument against him that most people make against Teclis (and rightfully) - games where it comes down to one model are boring.
No argument from me. One model having so much influence on the game is less fun.



@Giladis. Seerstaff counts as having "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection. I do not understand how you can say otherwise. Page 134 says you must pick the spells at army selection, and you paid points for Seerstaff, which fits the obvious definition of "bought". Also GW putting the word "bought" in quotes indicates to me it should not be read super strictly, but as a broad definition of "bought".


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:25 pm 
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A few notes on the Anvil in your game.

The Anvil has a 4+ ward save against shooting and magic missiles and a 6+ ward save in combat.
You also use the best weapon skill, armour and ward saving throw available against all wounds suffered by the Anvil.

About Anvil's and Miners.

I hear about alot of Dwarf players doing this and it baffles the hell out of me that people allow them to get away with it. Of course I'm reffering to the Infamous Anvil Miner Charge!! This is NOT legal. Miners cannot charge on the turn they arrive as they do so using the rules for reinforcements on pg. 27 of the BRB.

Direct Quote of the BRB Second paragraph:
A unit that enters as reinforcements cannot charge, as it has missed the opportuniy to do so, and may not march, but can otherwise participate in the game normally. Its worth bearing in mind that the unit counts as having moved for the purposes of shooting. End Quote.
The Anvil allows you to make an additional move which may be a charge, but in order to do so a charge has to be a available option. this is why you cannot anvil rangers in when they scout on the first turn as their not permitted to charge. Anvil's magical effects do not supercede the BRB.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:32 pm 
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dabber wrote:
@Giladis. Seerstaff counts as having "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection. I do not understand how you can say otherwise. Page 134 says you must pick the spells at army selection, and you paid points for Seerstaff, which fits the obvious definition of "bought". Also GW putting the word "bought" in quotes indicates to me it should not be read super strictly, but as a broad definition of "bought".


This is the first that I have encountered such an interpretation. The line about buying spells was placed there specificaly because of the soon to be obsolete Necromancer ability. Yes you do buy the Seerstaf, but you do not buy the spells merely the ability to choose them rather than roll them. The only way following this satruday to have two spells that are not signature spells in any army will be if you can have two guys that have "Loremaster" special ability for the same lore.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Hey Brew! Congrats on the win and thanks for the report.

To be honest, I found it rather dull and boring. Any game against Dwarfs is dull and boring. The first turn matters so much and apart from that all you do is pray for 2 things: one is for his machines to fail, the other is for your spells to overwhelm his defenses. I honestly don't see why people wanna play lists like this.

With that being said, I think you played well and the win was definitely deserved. Had he targetted Swordmasters and gotten first turn though...

@Giladis - the rules are pretty clear. With Seerstaff you indeed buy the spell as part of your army selection (as you're forced to write it down on your roster). How do you know why the paragraph was added? And how can you say that Seerstaff gives you the ability to choose instead of roll? This would be insanely powerful - take Seerstaff on a level 2 with Shadow: go with Mindrazor/Withering vs melee armies and pit / miasma vs shooting armies!

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Giladis wrote:
dabber wrote:
@Giladis. Seerstaff counts as having "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection. I do not understand how you can say otherwise. Page 134 says you must pick the spells at army selection, and you paid points for Seerstaff, which fits the obvious definition of "bought". Also GW putting the word "bought" in quotes indicates to me it should not be read super strictly, but as a broad definition of "bought".

This is the first that I have encountered such an interpretation. The line about buying spells was placed there specificaly because of the soon to be obsolete Necromancer ability. Yes you do buy the Seerstaf, but you do not buy the spells merely the ability to choose them rather than roll them. The only way following this satruday to have two spells that are not signature spells in any army will be if you can have two guys that have "Loremaster" special ability for the same lore.

Look closely at the text on page 134 (lower left) and 490 (lower left). Try to forget what you "think" or "know", and just read what the text says. I cannot see how the text supports your position.


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dabber wrote:
Giladis wrote:
dabber wrote:
@Giladis. Seerstaff counts as having "bought" a specific spell as part of army selection. I do not understand how you can say otherwise. Page 134 says you must pick the spells at army selection, and you paid points for Seerstaff, which fits the obvious definition of "bought". Also GW putting the word "bought" in quotes indicates to me it should not be read super strictly, but as a broad definition of "bought".

This is the first that I have encountered such an interpretation. The line about buying spells was placed there specificaly because of the soon to be obsolete Necromancer ability. Yes you do buy the Seerstaf, but you do not buy the spells merely the ability to choose them rather than roll them. The only way following this satruday to have two spells that are not signature spells in any army will be if you can have two guys that have "Loremaster" special ability for the same lore.

Look closely at the text on page 134 (lower left) and 160 (lower left). Try to forget what you "think" or "know", and just read what the text says. I cannot see how the text supports your position.



There is nothing on 134 to support your position IMO and 160 is the map of WHFB world.

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Sorry, meant 490.


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dabber wrote:
Sorry, meant 490.


The thing on 490. that prohibits what you are suggesting is "... if a model has no choice...". The problem with Seerstaff is that your spell selecion is a choice it is not something you have no control over which spells you will have like when you have two Loremaster and they both know all the spells.

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Thanks for all of the comments everyone! I'll try to address as many as I can:

@ Swordmaster - You know it's funny, my magic phase was super ineffective this game, but having said that if somebody had told me before the game that I was going to get one spell off all game, and what would I want that to be, I would have said Banishment on Thorek without hesitation. That one model just presents so much threat, particularly to our frail high elves.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
1. Do you think that similar approach, i.e. rushing forward full speed, would be as good if you had to move as second? Or would it be beneficial to deploy differently and use wide flanking maneuver?


Versus Thorek, this is the only option. If you don't take the most direct route into combat, you can count on 1-3 of your units taking 2D6 S4 hits per turn, and suffering from half movement. Anything else, and your opponent will effectively divide your lines, and dwindle your numbers into obsolescence before you can accomplish anything. Once again, part of why I hate Anvil gunlines, let alone Thorek. It's definitely something for you to watch out for with your small units - one Wrath and Ruin hit stands the chance of wiping one of those guys off the map :(

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
2. The more I see how much elves suffer from shooting the more I am wondering about making think lines of my units to make the template weapons less efficient. I even think I would go with WL living shield here as they still have some save against thunderers. Do you think such formations would help you? With swift reform you do not lose that much in terms of movement.


A great idea. It's important to consider a couple points though. First, if you have a unit acting as a living shield for another, all your opponent has to do is Wrath and Ruin the front unit, halving it's movement in order to half the unit behind's as well. Second, unless you're prepared to charge in the wide formation, reforming delays you by a turn as well. Not the end of the world, but something to think about.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
3. I am a little surprised at his artillery but maybe it is not that efficient after all. I do not make a mistake of underestimating it and his shooting phase did cost you life of many warriors. But after that initial hit by grudge thrower I expected equally massive fire next rounds.


I think he would have been better off with a second grudge thrower personally, but mostly I think it was his choice of targets that cost him. While we were talking at the end of the game, I told him point blank "Always shoot the swordmasters". Don't ask me why I gave that up, because it sure served me well :P

Remember too that the number of hits with these template weapons is dictated by the number of models it can hit. As your units get smaller and smaller, they get increasingly hard to hit. Artillery is great at taking down big blocks, but typically it's the BS shooting (or in this case the organ guns) that cleans up the units.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
4. I wonder of the only option to get your magic spells through is simply casting them with many dice, hope for IF and then hope for something that does not kill your mage or does not make him forget his spells. On the other hand, as your battle showed very well, that single spell helped enormously so if in the end you even lose the archmage but win the battle it might be a good exchange.


I see there being two possible routes. If the dice are close, you can try a high volume, low casting value approach to capitalize on your +2 to cast and force him to throw more dispel dice than power dice to take out spells, likely freeing you up for one or two successes. Or, if he's just got an absurd number more than you, then all you can really do is hope for the best.

@ Flame of the Asuryan - whoopsie! Good call. I'll try to switch that item around to somebody who can actually carry it.

@Wobblefoot - Thanks for pointing out about the miners not being able to charge. I forgot that the ability states it is a normal movement, which means that infiltrators still cannot charge. This significantly changes that strategy for the Dwarf player, and almost demands a list rewrite in my opinion.

I totally agree about the Quarrelers. They're not as good at hitting, and can't get through the lion pelts quite as well, but the versatility is what I think makes them shine. I also agree about their equipment. With so few combat blocks on the board, how could you not take great weapons?

@ dabber: The hill was a very low hill, affording my mages a good bust shot of Thorek. I made sure to check the line of sight before I even started deploying, otherwise I would have likely adapted my strategy and placement.

dabber wrote:
In my opinion, it is not that your army list makes Wrath and Ruin less effective, it is that he hit the wrong things. If he hits the two Swordmaster units, the damage wrecks their combat ability and the movement penalty may keep them out of combat another round. The Dragon Princes were too close for the movement to matter a great deal, so they were not a good target.


If he didn't have a healthy respect for the swordmasters before, he sure does now ;) I was surprised as well by some of his choices for Wrath and Ruin, but I think the troops breathing down his neck made him nervous. I don't think gunline players are used to enemies being upon them so soon like that.

@ Curu - I found it dull and boring too. These are my least favourite types of games, especially considering I wait 2 weeks between league nights to try my hand against a new army. You get what you get though, so I had to roll with it.

Funny story though - my friend was playing on the table beside me, and I look over and ask him how is game is going. His response:

"Very tactical"

So I say to him: "Well, if you get tired of that, go ahead and play against a Thorek gunline"

My opponent was a good sport, and didn't mind a bit of ribbing :P

@Giladis - Thanks! If you're a fan of the list, but not the mage setup, then you should check out some of my earlier battles where I paired up a Life Archmage with a Light Mage and a Combat BSB.

@ The debate about the Seerstaff. I've been down this road before ;)

On page 124 it states that if you have a wizard that can choose specific spells, it has to be written in to your roster at the time you pick your army

On page 490 it states that if a model has no choice over what spells it knows, of if it's because the spells have been bought as part of army selection, then the spells can be duplicated. The no choice section of the sentence is in reference to having no choice at the time of rolling - I have no choice, because the spells are already written in. I *have* to take Banishment and Pha's. It's in my roster.

Thanks again for the feedback and comments all! I'm hoping my match this weekend versus the Warriors of Chaos Dragon list will be a little more fun to play/report/read.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Giladis wrote:
dabber wrote:
Sorry, meant 490.


The thing on 490. that prohibits what you are suggesting is "... if a model has no choice...". The problem with Seerstaff is that your spell selecion is a choice it is not something you have no control over which spells you will have like when you have two Loremaster and they both know all the spells.


Look, the entry is pretty clear: if you have a spell as part of your army selection, then it can be duplicated. Since seerstaff requires you to choose spells as part of the army selection, these spells can be duplicated. This is how everyone else plays it as far as I know (brew from canada, dabber from the usa, me from norway, eldria from the uk). I don't want to derail this thread any further, go post in the rules section instead if you want to further argue this point.

Brewmaster I forgot to mention one thing - against armies like these, sporting a massive magical defense, the +1 to cast staff really shines as it allows you to minimize your casts so much. With that being said, the matchups where this is most relevant (Dwarfs, Empire) are also the ones where you cannot afford to reduce your elites even further.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Giladis wrote:
Look, the entry is pretty clear: if you have a spell as part of your army selection, then it can be duplicated. Since seerstaff requires you to choose spells as part of the army selection, these spells can be duplicated. This is how everyone else plays it as far as I know (brew from canada, dabber from the usa, me from norway, eldria from the uk). I don't want to derail this thread any further, go post in the rules section instead if you want to further argue this point.


Agreed. In the meantime I'll check with Mr. Troke if it this was intended use for the Seerstaff in the 8th ed.

Cheers



P.S. Brewmaster@ if there should be an FaQ update soon don't hate me :mrgreen:

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My pleasure Brewmaster. Its real easy for a dwarf player to cheat someone with all the different type of Runes they not to mention the Anvil. i'm not saying the dwarf player did this on purpose.

I hate to see the Anvil Miner Charge slip through unnoticed as its usually game breaking.
Thanks for the Battle report I'm looking forward to the next one.


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Hey Guys!

Here's something I've been cooking up for a while - agree or disagree, I'd love to hear your opinions!

I've got my match with the Dragon based Warriors list tonight as well, so expect that report tomorrow sometime.

The Lore of Light and You

Why the Lore of Light?

What’s the point, right? It seems like every High Elf list pretty much autocompletes the lore of Shadow or Life into the roster for you. What could the Lore of Light possibly bring to the table that these tried, tested and true lores can’t? Well, in this post I’m going to try to tell you what the Lore of Light can do for you, and show that it is a viable lore for a mage setup ranging from a secondary Level 2 all the way up to a fully invested Coven of Light.


Cool Story, Bro

From a purely fluff perspective, when you look at it, out of all the rulebook lores, the High Elves were meant to take the Lore of Light. I know, bold statement right? But look at how the Army Book lores of the Elves pair up –

Dark Magic: Death, Shadow, Metal

Athel Loren: Beasts and Life

High Magic: Light, Fire, Heavens

Now I’m not saying that every list that fields the lore of Life might as well be a Wood Elf list, or that every list that fields Shadow should be a Dark Elf list. What I am saying that it’s way cooler for a High Elf to be exactly what they are in the fluff – a bastion of light and nobility for the rest of the more corruptible races. In their opinion.


The Contingency Plan

Somewhere, among all the negative definitions for the word redundant is this little gem:

4. (of components, information, etc) duplicated or added as a precaution against failure, error, etc

Warhammer is a game of chance, when you boil it down to its core. Every action usually requires some sort of random dice roll to determine the outcome. Part of being successful in this game involves managing risk. In order to manage risk properly, you have to accept the fact that things can and will go wrong. If your list relies on one element to succeed, how will it adapt if that element does not perform as intended?

With the new edition, High Elves have a degree of redundancy built right in to the list – ASF and high initiative means we’re rerolling missed hits versus most troops. If we whiff with our first roll to hit, we have a contingency plan – we reroll them.

The same concept holds true in the magic phase. The more you are able to duplicate the effects of spells, the more likely it is that you’ll achieve your desired effect in each phase. This is where I feel that the Lore of Light really shines (get it?). If, for example, you need a combat to go your way, you can choose any one of the following buffs: Pha’s Protection, Speed of Light, Briona’s Timewarp, Light of Battle.

In addition to that, these effects stack. For example, versus WS4 troops, Pha’s Protection makes them hit our troops on 5’s. Then add Speed of Light on top of that, and they’re now hitting on 6’s.

This same concept of redundancy holds true with many other situations:

- Gunlines: Pha’s Protection, Timewarp, Net of Amyntok

- Skirmishers: Shem’s Burning Gaze, Banishment

- Hordes: Timewarp to kill them, Net of Amyntok and Light of Battle to hold them in place and line up combo charges

This leads me to my next point:

Equivalent threat levels

In most of the examples above, not only do the spells duplicate the desired results, but their effects are all relatively the same in terms of power – in the combat example, the opponent is forced to choose between -1 to hit, -1 to hit or +1 attack potentially cutting in to his return attacks. When you have 3 spells that are equally threatening, how do you prioritize dispelling?

Many other magic phases consist of one big spell, and several secondary spells. Your opponent knows your spells, and says to himself “I need to stop X spell, as it will have the most effect during this next turn”, so he can allot his dispel dice accordingly. The result is that versus a canny opponent, if you want your top spell off, you either have to a) throw a lot of dice at it and hope (dread) for Irresistable Force, or b) settle for your secondary choices.

Synergy with Troops and Items

One of the downsides of the Lore of Light is the relatively close ranges for the buffs, with the key culprit being timewarp. At a 12+, it’s one of the cheapest “big” spells to cast, but its range is only 12”. High Elves, however, are in the unique position to circumvent this problem with the use of one magic item – Forliath’s Robes.

With this one magic item, we are one of the few armies in the game situated to efficiently capitalize on the lore of light. With our main caster in the middle of our battle lines, it becomes possible to buff huge sections of our army at a time. For example, combo charges become increasingly threatening for our opponents, since all those units in close range of the Archmage are just begging for a 12” bubble timewarp or pha's protection.

Timewarp’s power is also dictated by the power of the attacks it is enhancing. For example, +1 attack to Empire swordsmen is… meh. However, pair it up with our already very high quality attacks, and it turns a threatening unit into a meatgrinder. Our White Lions and Swordmasters both possess high WS, high S attacks with ASF. Adding 1 attack to that is worth significantly more than most!

Finally, with our Seerstaff of Saphery allowing us to write spells into our list, and thus double up on spells, it also bears mentioning that most of the spells stack with themselves. That is to say 2 x Pha’s protection means -2 to hit and artillery must roll 4+ twice to shoot the unit. Or how about 3 attack White Lions? I’ll let your imagination do the rest.

Scalability

The lore also functions well regardless of the level of caster it is on. All of the spells in the lore on their base level can be cast on anywhere from a 5+ to a 12+. No other rulebook lore boasts this type of across-the-board low casting values. Even the top spell of the lore, Timewarp, is accessible to a level 1 by throwing 4 dice at it.

Pop the lore on an Archmage, and with the +4 to cast the fun really begins. Every single spell in the lore can be increased to a higher level, with the buffs turning into area of effect buffs and the Hexes/Damage spells increasing their range to a staggering 48”, and in the case of Shem’s increasing the Strength of the hit.

In addition to this, there’s one spell in particular that scales particularly well – Banishment. If you’re following my Army Blog at all, you’ll notice that my current setup includes 4 Lore of Light casters. This is because for every other wizard within 12” of the caster of this spell, the strength of the spell increases by 1. So effectively when my wizard casts banishment, instead of doing 2D6 S4 hits, it does 2D6 S7. For all intents and purposes, this spell acts like the cannons that we have never had. This doesn’t come without a sizeable investment in points, however.

Useful from Turn 1 to Turn 6

Power dice are resources at your disposal. Each one represents a possible advantage to you in the game. With this in mind, the worst possible situation for you to be in during the magic phase from an economics point of view is not having any spells worth casting. In other words, the risk mechanism that is built in to the magic phase (miscasts) poses more threat to your army than you stand to gain from any spell you have available to you. Essentially, you have resources at your disposal, but no effective way to use them. I found this to be the case quite a bit with the lore of life – nobody was within range of dwellers, no casualties had been incurred yet, and no defensive buffs were needed.

With the Lore of Light, this will rarely be the case. With a good array of both defensive and offensive spells, and increasable ranges on all of the offensive ones, there will always be something that is worthwhile casting.



Ok, sounds good. But how do I build a list that capitalizes on the lore?

When you look at the two most common rulebook lores, Shadow and Life, you’ll notice that one is very good at increasing damage done, and one is very good at increasing defense. Because of this, you’ll often see offensive natured troops paired with Life magic and Defensive troops paired with Shadow. This is no co-incidence; the lores pair with their respective troops to boost the areas that are weak and round out the troops.

What units pair well with Light?

So what do we do with a lore that has both defensive and offensive buffs? Logic would dictate that you can pair whatever you want and be successful. However, remember back to one of the points in the last section regarding synergy – since most of the combat buffs are centered around enhancing the attacks that already exist, the more powerful the attacks are to begin with, the more powerful the spell are made.

Core Setup

Any standard core setup can work, depending on which direction you want to take your list (Range focused or close combat). Having said that, it deserves to be mentioned that the Lore of Light doesn't have traditional means of dealing with large, ranked units. Because of this, Spearmen are a great addition due to being the cheapest way for us to achieve ranks.

Given that our Core is S3, however, generally speaking you're just putting in the points to get your minimum - Spears or Archers both work fine, and I suppose seaguard can too if you're feeling brave.

Special Troops

This is where the lore really comes into its own. As I mentioned before, Light's strength lies in its ability to enhance attacks that already exist. So for example, while adding 1 attack to a model with WS3 S3 isn't very threatening at all, adding 1 attack to a model that has WS5, S6 and ASF superceding the ASL rule from greatweapons poses a significant threat to your opponent.

We can then safely say that a list that includes the Lore of Light should also include plenty of high quality attacks to enhance - White Lions, Swordmasters and Dragon Princes all fit the bill. The Lion Chariot also deserves an honorable mention - a timewarp on this one model would net a bonus of 4 attacks, and increase the quality of the Lion attacks as well (conferring ASF).

Rare Choices

These choices can be fairly standard depending on your level of committment to ranged attacks vs. control of the movement phase. A good rule of thumb is that if you're not investing in high strength banishment, then it may be a good idea to field a Repeater Bolt Thrower or two to address any large monster concerns.

Large vs. Small units

This is going to come down to playstyle, however in an MSU list, the lore has the built in advantage of being able to buff a huge swath of your army in one cast. Imagine 4 small units of hard hitting infantry moving faster than knights to position themselves around a target, and in the following turn executing a multi charge. What small units bring to the table is control over the movement phase. This makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to stop you from getting the charges you want when you want them.

The argument for an MSU style list can be related right back to one of the reasons the Lore of Light is so powerful: Redundancy. By having many small units, what you sacrifice in vulnerability to panic and ease of giving away victory points, you gain in movement control, mitigation of charge range risk and reduced vulnerability to template weapons and mass destruction spells.


Some ideas for the future


As always, I'm always seeking out new ways to use our army list. I see the High Elves as being very much like the Lore of Light itself. On paper, they look relatively mundane - few big flashy monsters, lots of infantry - however I find them to be one of the most tactically diverse armies that I've had the opportunity to play. I own 4 armies currently (and I'm embarrassed to say that number is growing too...), but I find that if I'm looking for an engaging game of warhammer, I always come back to my High Elves. So with this in mind, here are a few ideas I've had which utilize the Lore of Light, but haven't had the opportunity to run with. If anybody wants to give them a whirl, absolutely be my guest!

Coven of Light in a shooting heavy list

I believe there is opportunity here to use a coven type setup (S6 or S7 banishment) to good effect in a bowline type list. I would use something along these lines for an initial character setup, then use it as a springboard:

Archmage, Level 4, Lore of Light, Talisman of Preservation, Ring of Corin - Lore of Light
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Banishment, Net)
Mage, Level 1, Anullian Crystal
BSB w/ Radiant Gem - lore of light

You'd give up curse of arrow attraction, but gain a S7 magic missile, and 2x opportunities to net opponents in place. Jury's out on how it would work

Single Light Archmage Paired with a High Magic Level 2 (or vice versa)

There's been a lot of discussions on these boards about High Magic vs. Light magic recently. I say why not both? Both lores are incredibly versatile, and between the two you'd have a plethora of useful spells to choose from.

Cost effective Light Archmage in an MSU style list

Really want to see this in action - I love the way Swordmaster's list plays, and I'm dying to see what would happen if Light was the primary lore. I think High and Light are neck and neck for utility in a list like this, so I'd like to see the other side of the coin if for no other reason than completion. We know High magic works (check out Swordmaster's Army blog thread for proof), so I'd like to give Light a fair trial.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Great writeup. I truly love the Lore of Light; every time I've used it, I've found it to be a stellar performer. My favorite aspect of the Lore, by far, is the ability to "bubble" its boosted spells and affect multiple components of your battle line. Echoing the redundancy point made by Brewmaster, a Level 4 with select spells (Banishment, Pha's Protection) backed up by a Level 2 with Seerstaff with the same spells can create an even deeper layer of redundacy, making it very easy to achieve a particular magic phase goal using Light spells.

If I ever make a major list overhaul, it would almost undoubtedly be a shift to the Coven of Light. The only reason I don't use it now is because I like Prince + Phoenix Guard combination, and I think that having both a Prince and an Archmage is too expensive when going for Strength 7 Banishment. Spending points on an Archmage, a Level 2, a Prince and BSB (one with Radiant Gem) as well as a fourth caster is obviously a lot spent on characters. However, in the current campaign I'm running, I'm experimenting with a Coven list to get a more developed feel for it. So far, my experience has been excellent.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:50 pm 
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+1 for great writeup! One thing I feel the need to point out, yet again, is how valuable +1 to cast could be here. If you take a look at Furion's thread you'll see some excellent arguments for why this bonus is so good when you throw few dice at a spell. However, as has been said before, you cannot deplete your elites further. Therefore, I'm going to go with a radical suggestion: drop the BSB.

That's right, I just adviced you to play without a BSB in 8th edition! Say WHAT?

Well, if you look at it, the BSB is currently just there to boost banishment and provide re-rolls. His combat potential is of little importance due to his T3 5+ survivability.

You can counter this as follows:
- Banner of +1LD on Core with your General for LD10 bubble
- Gem of Courage
- Gleaming Pennant
- Lion Standard
Note that these are all cheap and allow you to greatly reduce the impact of a BSB. However, and this is rather big, Light of Battle essentially nullifies the purpose of a BSB! As such, investing in a BSB is counter-productive with regards to fully utilizing the lore! I do believe that Light of Battle also makes you unbreakable (as a break test is a leadership test).

This allows you to put the Corin Ring on the BSB-gone-Mage, freeing up your Archmage for Starwood Staff, or, if you wanna go to town, the Book of Arkhan. Combined with the crystal, the latter of these 2 will make your opponents cry when it's their magic phase (what's that Daemons - a level 2 Loremaster? Hmm, let me see what I can do between taking 1PD, adding 1DD and getting 4 channels. Did I mention +6 to dispel?).

Note that this also frees up points / potential to get some other useful items, e.g. Skeinsliver, Amulet of Light, Amulet of Fire, Loremaster's Cloak...

I hope this was some food for thought for you! The added fact that +5 to cast makes Timewarp Bubble that much more attractive is definitely worth considering in this evaluation :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Excellent article, Brewmaster. Why did it take you so long to write one? It was such an obvious idea once I saw it done :D

Light is simply great lore and I am not surprised to see it more often these days. I also agree that from the point of view of fluff bunny it simply feels right to have it for HE army! And what is probably the most important in the whole post is that you wrote it with positive attitude towards spells and their usefulness. I still remember some quick reviews of magic lores just after 8th edition rulebook appeared and they completely neglected Light.

It is a very good idea to bring the definition of "redundancy" as it really shows what it is all about. I also like Light because of this less direct but powerful aid to your army which you explained so well. You have high WS and I and think you don't need that WS10, I10 spell? Well, what about when you don't lose your 3+ and re-rolls to hit against some nasty troops you really, really cannot afford to hit back. You think your high LD and BSB guarantee you pass the test? But then you still have to roll dice and 11-12 results are not that uncommon while with proper spell you pass it automatically (and I really wanted that against Slaaneshi Deamons :)). There are many more examples like that but it is a great thing you put it in a proper context!

Speaking of definitions I would like to come back to the issue with synergy :) After wiki (I know it is not the best one but there are nice articles there anyway :)) - Synergy may be defined as two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable. In other words synergy is when 2 + 2 > 4 :)

The best example is from Lore of Light :) If you cast Pha's Protection, enemy hits you with -1 penalty (usually meaning on 5+). If you cast Speed of Light and fight against WS4 troops your now WS10 warriors will be hit on 5+ too. Cast both spells and you will be hit on 6+! Separately this effect is not achievable, now that is what I call synergy! :)

I am mentioning that definition as I think people often misuse the term. For example, if you cast Withering and lower the toughness of the enemy it does not achieve anything just yet. There are no casualties, it might discourage your enemy to commit the unit. If you shoot at them and kill more than usual it is better result but it is not synergy. It is a very useful and powerful augment for your shooting efficiency. Apologies for that ramble, I am sure some people will not agree and will keep use this nice term to make their arguments look more reasonable and scientific. Just wanted to add a little bit simply because we use different terms and people might use different definitions for them :)

One more think I wanted to ask. Although I think that in close combat Pha's Protection can stack for -2 penalty then I am not sure you have to roll twice to overcome its effect for warmachines. What is your reasoning for that?

As to Light lore and MSU what do you think about this: I might play one more game before the tournament and then I will have 8 more games to add to my experience with MSU in general and MSU+High in particular. After that I will try to collect my thoughts in one post and we can once again come back to the discussion. I will have considerable number of examples from ~16 battles so I hope I can use them for better evaluation what worked and what could have happened if I had Light lore in the same situation.

What say you, Brewmaster? :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:57 pm 
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I must conclude that the Lore of Light High Elf list is one of the best counters against VC of any kind!!! I will try one list myself :D ! Your write-up definitely pushed me over!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan brings up a very valid point - Light has good counters to lists we normally struggle against - e.g. Vampire Counts (though it might be a little early to say for sure) and Daemons of Chaos. Even a Bloodthirster (with 3+ ward vs magic missiles) fears the powered-up Banishment!

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