Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - 05/12 Battle Report

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Brewmaster_D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#421 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Alive:
Grey Seer - 285, BSB Chieftain - 122, Slaves - 62, Clanrat Unit #1 (above half) - 177.5, Clanrat Unit #2 (above half) - 173.
Alive Total - 819.5
1 Captured Table Quarter for me - 50 points

Dead: Plague Priest - 129, Clanrat Unit #3 - 150.5, Clanrat Unit #4 - 150.5, Giant Rats - 450, Hellpit #1 - 250, Hellpit #2 - 250
Dead Total - 1380
Hey Brad! Thanks for popping this in there - looking at the list now, I see where I went wrong in my math - I counted a standard (25) for the giant rats, which of course they don't have (you'd think I'd know better playing skaven myself) and I think I counted one of the units of 35 as being taken instead of the 29. It's tough to tell from my photos.

Looking forward to hearing your take on the game!

This guy was a blast to play against, and he got my vote for favourite opponent as well, although his doubles partner (round 1 match for me) was a very close second.
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#422 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

All Skaven players claim they are crystal clear in their intentions and they do not cheat but we all know how honest heroes of the Skavendom can be :D

I think this is one of the best things you can get in a tournament. You play against very good opponent who is a great guy too. The game is close and not decided until last possible moment and even then it is either a draw or as close to it as it can be. Hopefully he survived that dinner (GF might have added some special ingredient for forgetting the anniversary :P) and will have a chance to have a proper rematch to show that it was not a draw :D

Even more so it is disturbing to find out some kind of a disaster happened in game 3 :(
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Apothecary
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#423 Post by Apothecary »

No problem, just got back from the dinner. Things went over smoother then I thought they would, that is until I told her of the possible double date down to Montreal Arena with Chris Slye and his wife :P

I had a great time that game as well, it had its ups and downs. I don't really know why I just tossed the large clan block out in the back field instead of circling around the building and being a pain in the ass (quite literally!), but otherwise maybe next time we play I'll get an spell off :)

Things I would have done differently:
- Scroll'd that first Shem's, no flaming meaning that the hellpit could have got a bit further then not moving at all.
- Set up more of a flanking force since I had in theory a greater number of large units.
- Avoided that building or used it as a way to ignore one flank on my giant rats.
- Burned Storm Banner later on in the game to try to get your birds.
- Take some gutter runners (albeit not the best choice when coupled with storm banner)

Things I learned from the tournament in general:
- FLAMING IS EVERYWHERE! (Hellpits aren't quite the power-houses I used to use them as)
- Light Wizard Spam meta is new to me, never seen it used like this before (3 games were against Light wizards, 4th was Dwarves)
- Potential to still take a Power Scroll on the Grey Seer is actually there, a few times I actually had 2 dice left but no range on spells, 13 for a 13th would be hotness.

Had a great game and I'm hoping your wife didn't find me too crude in the game.

- Brad
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#424 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Are you saying Brewmaster brought his wife to distract his opponents? :) Now I see what his secret tactics is :D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#425 Post by Brewmaster_D »

I had a great time that game as well, it had its ups and downs. I don't really know why I just tossed the large clan block out in the back field instead of circling around the building and being a pain in the ass (quite literally!), but otherwise maybe next time we play I'll get an spell off :)
Haha, this might happen sooner than we think too! Are you going to minis day in april? T.Faulkner tipped me off to this event, so it looks like a handful (or possibly more) of us from Kitchener are going to head down to take part.
Things I would have done differently:
- Scroll'd that first Shem's, no flaming meaning that the hellpit could have got a bit further then not moving at all.
- Set up more of a flanking force since I had in theory a greater number of large units.
- Avoided that building or used it as a way to ignore one flank on my giant rats.
- Burned Storm Banner later on in the game to try to get your birds.
- Take some gutter runners (albeit not the best choice when coupled with storm banner)
Unfortunately that particular terrain's setup is a horde army's worst nightmare, particularly versus a compact elite force like High Elves. Whatever side of that building the rats went on, I was likely going on the other side. Just an unlucky map for such a big block.

I really liked your style of skaven list; cheap, bare bones characters and emphasis on plenty of units. I'm curious to know how it performed in your other games - I know one was versus the Teclis + 3 light mage coven, and you did quite well in that one, but what type of list was the third list featuring light wizards? Another High Elf list?

I was actually pretty surprised by the High Elf representation at the tournament - might have to bust out my skaven next year just so you have a little company :P Am I right that you were the only one?
Things I learned from the tournament in general:
- FLAMING IS EVERYWHERE! (Hellpits aren't quite the power-houses I used to use them as)
- Light Wizard Spam meta is new to me, never seen it used like this before (3 games were against Light wizards, 4th was Dwarves)
- Potential to still take a Power Scroll on the Grey Seer is actually there, a few times I actually had 2 dice left but no range on spells, 13 for a 13th would be hotness.
Part of what is so appealing to me about the lore of light setup is the low overall cost of the spells in the lore. It's completely opposite of what most people are going for that I find it throws people off - most people in the current meta are throwing 6 dice at a huge effect spell, whereas I'm throwing 2 and 3 dice at 4 or 5 spells a turn. Makes it really hard to mitigate the phase, and it also marginalizes the utility of things like dispel scrolls.
Had a great game and I'm hoping your wife didn't find me too crude in the game.
Lmao! That was her "I know you spent 40 hours painting little soldiers in the last week, so I know this is important to you" appearance.

Me to her before the tournament: "You know I really don't expect you to show up. I can almost guarantee it's not your scene"

Congrats on your overall weekend win by the way! Looks like you're the man to beat next year :twisted:

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#426 Post by Findolfin »

Apothecary wrote:No problem, just got back from the dinner. Things went over smoother then I thought they would, that is until I told her of the possible double date down to Montreal Arena with Chris Slye and his wife :P
Montreal Canada? If so, I live there too :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 2

#427 Post by Brewmaster_D »

The Dreaded Third Match

So there I was. Two draws versus two solid opponents. I knew after Drawing twice, I wasn't going to be on any of the leading tables, so I resolved to just have a good time for the rest of the day and enjoy my remaining matches. Whoever was in charge of fate that day must have read my mind and been in a vindictive mood that day though...

Ogre Kingdoms

Slaughtermaster, Talisman of Preservation, Ironfist
Bruiser, Gut Maw
Firebelly, Channeling Staff

8 x Ironguts, Full Command
12 x Ogres, Full Command

4 x Leadbelchers, Bellower, Thunderfist

4 x Mournfangs, Full Command

Thundertusk

Not exactly what I'd call a competitive list - he's got no hellheart, no dispel scroll, no dragonhide banner, no sabretusks and NO BSB!! (says the guy that didn't take a BSB either :P)

We roll for our spells, and get the following:

Archmage - Light of Battle, Net of Amyntok, Banishment, Timewarp
Mage - Pha's Protection

Slaughtermaster - Toothcracker, The Maw, Spinemarrow, Bonecrusher
Firebelly - Fireball, Flamestorm

Deployment

Image

Not much to say here - I think I nail it, with my coven in a perfect spot to take out 250 points quickly, and his Mournfangs, amazingly, deployed right behind a blocking building.

Turn 1, Ogre Kingdoms

Image

He starts by declaring a charge with his Mournfangs on my Reavers. I ask him how he proposes to accomplish that, and he grabs his unit and performs an elaborate, 3 wheel maneuver around the building. I'm flabbergasted, and say "You only get 1 wheel dude. That's not possible". He ends up moving around the building and through the woods, but I know at this moment that I'm in for trouble this game.

The rest of his army moves up incredibly conservatively (for ogres at least), and I think he believes he has the ranged advantage with his magic, belchers and thundertusk.

Magic is 4 v 3 - He starts with a 3D6 flamestorm, powered up, but fails. He then tries a D6 fireball, but fails that as well.

Shooting sees him put his belcher's shots on my Western Swordmasters, but fail to do any wounds due to moving and cover from the forest. His Thundertusk's shot goes wide by a mile

Turn 1, High Elves

Image

I move up my forces in the West to hook around his battle line, and keep the Eastern front back to try to control the movement of the Mournfangs.

Magic is 9 v 6 - I start with a 2D6 banishment on his Thundertusk, which he allows (!!!) - I put two wounds on it. I then cast it again with 3D6, and he fails to dispel it. The resulting missiles take the thundertusk down.

I then put a 2D6 Pha's on my Western Swordmasters, which miscasts and drains the level 1's spell. I finish with a 2D6 net on his firebelly's unit, which fails to meet the casting value.

Shooting sees me take out one of the leadbelchers (not shown in this turn)

Turn 2, Ogres

Image

He starts by moving his Leadbelchers 6" directly sideways, then I notify him that units can move sideways at half their movement. He opts to shuffle slightly sideways.

His mournfangs then pull the same stunt, doing a weird "I don't know the rules" reform/squish move to get around my reavers. At this point I accept that I'm going to have to choose my battles and let him have it.

The rest of his battle line forms up in a neat line, still confident in his ranged prowess (??)

Magic is 7 v 6 - He leads off with a full power fireball on 4d6 my white lions, which I dispel. He then throws the remaining 3 at a flamestorm, but fails to meet the casting value.

The leadbelchers fail to hit anything with pha's and cover protecting the swordmasters.

Turn 2, High Elves

Image

The swordmasters charge the leadbelchers, who flee. I'm not too disappointed by this, as it keeps them from firing next turn, and the swordmasters are already ahead of my battle line to begin with.

The reavers move back in to distraction position, and in my head I'm thinking "I can dance all day" (yeah, that's definitely an FPS Doug quote)

Magic is 12 v 6 - I start with a 2D6 Banishment on his Mournfangs, which he dispels. I then cast a 3D6 pha's bubble, which he also dispels. I then go for timewarp on the white lions (hoping for a next round charge), but fail the cast, and manage to get light of battle up on the white lions in case of a long charge, as well as net on his firebelly's unit.

Shooting sees me put another wound on the leadbelchers.

Turn 3, Ogres

Image

The ogres inch up, and the leadbelchers rally.

Magic is 9 v 7 - he fails a powered up fireball on 3D6 and then gets an irresistable force toothcracker on the ironguts. The resulting miscast drains his power dice.

Turn 3, High Elves

Image

Here it is, the moment of truth. I move up my redirectors and get really aggressive with my move towards his general's unit. Pretty much as aggressive as I can get without him overrunning into one of my units after the redirect.

Magic is 12 v 7 again - I lead with a 3D6 Banishment on his leadbelchers, in an attempt to take them off the board before they can lay in to my swordmasters. They suffer another casualty and flee, but don't quite run off the board. I then cast another 3D6 banishment on his mournfangs, which he dispels. I get a 3D6 timewarp on the spears, giving them plenty of charge options next turn, and finish with a 2D6 net on his firebelly's unit (he's going to fail sometime!) but he dispels it.

Turn 4, Ogres

Image

Ahh yes, my favourite turn of this entire tournament. Remember how I mentioned I was going to pick my battles? This was it. He announces a charge with his mournfangs on my swordmasters, and once again, I ask him "How do you propose to do that?". He immediately grabs the models, spins them on the spot and pushes them at my swordmasters, around my reavers.

"Hang on dude, you get one wheel. Let's see it with one wheel"

He puts his models back, but conveniently an inch further East. The wheel is now easily obtainable.

"See, I pin the corner and make the wheel"

"Yeah man, now that you've moved the unit"

Now here is what I didn't think of at the time... I was taking PICTURES at the start of each turn for these reports. The proof is in the pudding - here's the shot of this turn before he moved anything:

Image

Now I realize I'm a pretty easy going guy, and sometimes I don't double check things, but given my first round match, I check this 100%. There is no way those fangs can make that wheel into my swordmasters.

HOWEVER. I didn't think of the pictures at the time, and when we called a judge over, they looked at the fangs new position and let him have the charge.

$%&*

The rest of his battle line moves backwards, but interestingly he measures from the back of his unit, and moves the front of his unit to that point. So in essence, he's moved about 10" back.

"Dude, not even remotely right"

"The back becomes the front, it says so in the rules"

"Yeah... for fleeing. Three inches is all you get. Redo that please"

Once again, he takes a bonus inch because he's already moved his units.



Magic is 8 v 7 - He starts with a spinemarrow on his ironguts, which I allow. He then tries a powered up Toothcracker, which he fails to cast. Finally he casts a level 2 fireball on my eagle which he casts irresistably, and kills it.

In combat, predictably, despite only a couple mournfangs being in base contact with the swordmasters (he wanted to wheel around and get all of them in base contact, and contested this with the judges too) he still managed to kill enough of them to break steadfast and passed a ridiculous number of armour saves (4/5). He overruns into my eagle.

High Elves, Turn 4

Image

Down but not broken, I start by declaring charges with both my swordmasters and my white lions on his Ogres. With magical aid, I'm confident either of them can handle the unbuffed ogre unit. Both need a 7 to get in, and naturally I roll snakeyes and 3 for my charge rolls. Both stumble forward, and my carefully laid plans go to shit.

I reform the reavers and move them up to salvage the situation. I actually manage to find some new utility that I hadn't thought of before - reforming them long gives them a huge frontage, allowing me to block both units and threaten some seriously nasty countercharges should he overrun.

Magic is 12 v 6. I start with a pha's protection bubble (bubble is wrong here, it's from the level 2 - I was getting frustrated at this point and my notes start to suffer) and suffer another miscast. The level 2 suffers a wound and drains 5 dice from the pool. I then try a 3D6 timewarp on the lions, but he dispels it, and put a light of battle on the spears in case of any mournfang funny business.

The mournfangs finish the eagle and reform to face the middle.

Ogres, Turn 5

Image

Displaying the least amount of ogre ferocity I've ever seen in my life, he retreats again. The mournfangs fail a long charge here, but I forget to move them 2" in the picture.

He forgets his leadbelchers this turn.

Magic is 7 v 7 - He starts with a toothcracker on his ironguts, and I let him have it. He then goes with a spinemarrow on the same unit, which I dispel. I also dispel his fireball attempt.

High Elves, Turn 5

At this point I begin to question if I'm even playing warhammer. Because, y'know, in warhammer you actually fight each other and stuff.

I start by declaring charges with the Ellyrian Reavers on his Leadbelcher's flank to get them out of the way. They make it in!

I charge the Swordmasters, White Lions and spears on his Ironguts. I know that I still have enough hitting power to plow through that unit and win the game, and the units are close - the swords need an 8 and the lions and spears both only need a 6 to get in. Naturally, the lions and swords roll another 3 and 4 respectively, and the spears are now fighting T5 ironguts alone...

Magic is 6 v 3 - I start with a 3 dice banishment on his mournfangs and kill 2 of them. He passes his panic test.

3D6 goes at pha's, which I also manage to put up on the spears. (in hindsight, light of battle would have been better here)

But a lot of good it does me - they get crushed by both boxcars from his breath weapon hits and the ensuing irongut attacks. The spears break, and flee, and again he has some interesting conceptualization of how the combat was angled and pursues into my white lions. I'm tired of arguing at this point.

Ogres, Turn 6

Image

You know what comes next - he's rolled 10+ for both of his charges, and steamrolls my units. His guts charge in to the archmage's unit, and take the archers out on my turn.

Game Over.

After Battle Thoughts

So despite all that, I still take away a few things from the battle:

- When I'm making reports, the photos I'm taking are a perfect way to resolve movement disputes with no bias. Here's a photo. Deal with it.
- I still didn't rate Light of Battle highly enough this match. I still would have lost this game, but it would have at least preserved my White Lions.
- The penalty for slow play is that you need to finish at least 3 turns. I think I'll contest things more in the future, and not be such a nice guy. It is a tournament after all, and everyone is expected to both know the rules and follow them.

Anyway, even writing this report up gets me a bit frustrated, so I'll leave it at that :P

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#428 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I feel sorry for you, it takes one guy like that to ruin the entire tournament. To add insult to injury he won the game (at least in his mind). Having a similar experience from some tournaments when people try to cheat (the way they do that does not matter much) you simply have to be strict to the rules. Indeed, taking pictures can greatly reinforce your point. In general people try to avoid misunderstandings by placing counters or using other items to check if the movement is possible. It was clear to me this guy had no such intentions. You can still be a nice guy but nice guys can also be adamant when they know they are right.:)

I made similar mistakes when I let the other player do something what was not right. For the sake of having good game. But in the end I felt bad to let to be cheated and didn't have a good game either. I think it is enough to say "no" as many times as the guy tries to cheat you. People do make mistakes but if the guy makes it once and then next time he does it again it simply means he cannot be allowed to do so.

I also had a feeling that you got frustrated and really wanted to force that big combat to win the game despite being cheated. It would be indeed stuff of legends but somehow the stuff of legends does not want to happen in reality that often. :) It is very difficult to keep a cool mind in such situation but it is even more important to do so.

In any case here is "internet pint" to cheer you up and forget the idiot player you had to face as soon as possible :)

As to the game itself I think you had a good chance to win that combat if at least one elite unit made it, although breath weapons are bane of our smaller units. Even with two characters in front rank there were enough regular ogres to direct attacks against to make up for more difficult targets.

Thanks a lot for posting as I know how hard it is to do so after such a lousy game!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#429 Post by Nicene »

Whew! I know tons of us were waiting eagerly to get that report since you first started dropping hints about it, and you didn't disappoint!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#430 Post by Athanoes »

some very good reports so much fun to read, its given me plenty to think about tactically and during list creation...... a REAL shame about the player in that last game, I had a guy like that at my last tournament, I didnt take it as well as you did and ended leaving early cause he'd 'paid off' the judges to rule in his favour (as did a few other players who attended the club running it)

anyway back on topic I eargely await the next battle report!

also, while reading your reports of the tournament, do you feel that you may have been able to whether magic slightly better if you had access the dispel scroll? being ableto autodispel that plague in game 2 may have changed the outcome.....
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#431 Post by Apothecary »

Woah, didn't know about that game! This guy has been going to Warmasters for at least 2 years, and he took Ogres (old book) last year, and let me tell you, it doesn't change for him by the sounds of it. My friend John played him last year with his Dark Elves, after trashing his sub-par list he proceeded to complain the whole time and zero'ed out John's soft scores.

I may try to make it down to Burlington if the GF allows it, but we'll see. I'm also glad you like my list, quality through quantity is the main mentality in the list, though I'm always being told "Gutter Runner, Plague Monks, Storm Vermin, Boo Hiss!", truth is, its really what you like and are comfortable playing with. *not to steal your thunder* I played against Teclis in game 3 who tapped out on turn 4 and also had the lowest score in the whole tournament as well as absolute bottom sports score, an equally uninspiring game for me.

- Brad
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#432 Post by Brewmaster_D »

I noticed my battle report omits a couple things towards the end - On High Elf Turn 4, I actually suffer two miscasts - one on pha's and one on a 2 dice light of battle. That's why there's 2 explosions.

To add icing on the cake, on Ogre turn 5, before he backs his troops up again, he declares a charge on my swordmasters with his ogres:

Me: "Come on man, really?"

*He pins the Eastern corner, wheels the Western corner backwards and pushes them at the Swordmasters*

Him: "One wheel, see"

Me: "Are we even playing the same game here? You can't wheel backwards"

Finally, the last straw that I also omitted was that on my last turn, the last turn of the game, we resolve the combat versus my archmage bunker. I managed to get light of battle off on the unit, and he kills all the archers. I say "My archmage is ethereal though, so they're stuck there"

"Too bad my firebelly actually has MAGICAL ATTACKS!" (He started to sound like Bob Barker by the end when things started to go his way whenever he'd announce something advantageous to him)

I just wanted the match to be over at this point, but I checked my book this morning. Firebellies have flaming attacks, not magical attacks

I think it was a combination of a) bad player that didn't know the rules b) terrible rolling - all those failed, really easy charges and all those miscasts - and c) His gloaty attitude when things went his way that really soured me on this game. I can usually put up with a lot, but I really did come to this tournament expecting games like round #1 & 2, not to have to debate over rules for two hours.

@Swordmaster - I totally agree with you, I should have taken a harder line here. I can honestly say, though, that had I brought every point to the judges I don't think we would have met our 3 turn minimum (and both scored 0) and also I think Nate (the judge) would have hammered me. The guy is like 6'5" and 300 pounds lol!

By turn 5, I was definitely frustrated, and I knew that with magical support even one of my units of elites could take on his units. Problem was that I really needed a win after drawing twice, and we were basically tied this game after his mournfang shenanigan.

Also note that the firebelly was in with the ironguts and the bruiser and slaughtermaster were in with his ogres. I failed one really easy to pull off combo charge on each of those units.

@Nicene - Haha, glad it didn't disappoint!

@Athanoes - Glad you're taking some valuable things away from this thread! Regarding your question - yes and no. In a perfect world, yes, absolutely I'd have a scroll for just such a situation. However, it comes down to opportunity cost - what do I have to give up to get it? The Anullian Crystal is pure gold in every match I play (except Dwarves :P), and provides much more overall utility. So it stays in. The Seerstaff is critical to my overall strategy of doubling up spells and creating the difficult to resist magic phase, so it stays too. That leaves the Archmage's slot, and I opt for the Ring of Corin here. This is my "cheese insurance policy", for items like the hellheart, pendant of khaeleth and cupped hands. It paid dividends in the first round, where I was able to eliminate a hellheart that bearing down on my coven.

@Apothecary - Makes me feel a bit better that I'm not the only guy that got noobrolled by this guy. That's a pretty low move trashing a guy's soft scores because he beat you...
its really what you like and are comfortable playing with
This is so true - Internet wisdom is going to tell you what you should and shouldn't take, but at the end of the day it comes down to one simple fact: If you like a list, you're going to play better with it.

It's killing me to know though - did anybody else kill the 100 rat unit? I said it at the tournament and I'll say it again - that thing made my day lol =D>

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#433 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Curu Olannon wrote:I've been toying with the idea of how to run the Coven @ ETC restricted events. This is my initial draft:

Lvl 4 Arkhan, GP
Lvl 2 Seer
LVl 1 Crystal
BSB RGoH

35 Spears
15 flaming Archers
10 Archers

14 Swords
14 Swords
14 Lions, BoS
14 Lions

2-3 Eagles

Should work out at around 2500. What are your thoughts with this setup? How would you tweak the Coven for ETC?
Interestingly, there isn't much in my list that goes against ETC rulings. I agree with your switch to the book of Arkhan here though, given the limitation on power dice.

I think you'll find the Banner wielding White Lions tend to attract a lot of attention, so 14 wounds might be cutting that unit down a bit too close, but overall I like the list concept.

I notice in your Dragon list, you swapped out the Dragon Princes for a unit of Swordmasters. You find, after getting a few games under your belt, that you're happy with getting rid of the mobility?

I might try a game or two as well with 4 blocks of elites and see how it goes. Especially at 2500, this list has enough firepower to force opponents to you, so maybe losing the Dragon Prince's movement isn't the worst thing.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#434 Post by Curu Olannon »

Sorry to hear about your terrible luck with regards to the opponent. I'm fairly sure I would've been more than angry enough myself. The worst part of this is that letting him have his way and getting frustrated appeared to cloud your judgement as well. I'm sure there are multiple factors here, such as playing multiple games in a row etc but to me it seemed like this was definitely impacting your game.

So let's take a look at the game:

Deployment is good, very good in fact, and you can pretty much do as you please.

T1 - it appears from the picture that his Mournfang couldn't even have moved past that house. This is something I would've protested and even called a judge for. Just make your point clear and very early on to show him where you stand. This makes future issues easier to deal with and it allows you to focus on your game while showing him that you can't be bullied around. Did his Mournfang test for Dangerous Terrain?

Your T1 - again I find myself wondering exactly why you move your stuff up: you clearly have the ranged superiority here and it's easier to funnel him if he has to close the distance. Again, casting Timewarp in such a situation increases the strategic viability of your magic phase: if you would've closed the distance anyway the M10 doesn't matter much, but when he has to close the distance and you suddenly possess 20" march units, the picture changes. Magic priorities are perfect!

T2 - again I wouldn't let this slide. Those Mournfang are trapped, make him pay for it. Did he march? Again, Dangerous Terrain is called for. Your moves in T2 are also something I find weird: the Eagle should have LoS to the Leadbelchers: if you Timewarp the Swordmasters and he flees, the Eagle can declare a charge to flee them off the table. It's not like it needs vision to the centre of the board to block anyways. Moving the Lions and Spears up is also a mistake in my opinion - make him come to you! Why didn't you cast Banishment twice here? I would've done as follows: 4D6 Banishment, 4D6 Banishment, 4D6 Timewarp (west Swordmasters). This is a very safe casting approach - it's hard (almost impossible) for him to dispel more than one spell and whatever 2 get through, the effects are devastating. I'm almost 100% sure he'd dispel 1 cast of Banishment. If you would've held your line back, this would mean 1x Banishment through on the Mournfang and the timewarped Swordmasters could've finished the Western flank. This allows you another round of magic before combat hits hard (maybe even 2!) - again Banishment is very likely to go through.

T3 - This is not a turn I like at all. You simply cannot concentrate enough force. Essentially, your moves here are extremely risky in a game where there's no reason to risk anything. Just chill out, hang back and pound him some more! Magic - with 12v7 I would've definitely gone for a Timewarp bubble here: getting it off on all your units makes his next turn impossibly hard.

T4+ - Just... no comment. With all that cheating and luck there's not much else to do than realize that some higher power isn't on your side. With that being said, I do think your first couple of turns were fairly sub-optimal compared to what I know you're capable of.

By the way - love the Doug reference! 'Try and hit me, try and hit me... BOOM headshot!'

Dragon Princes and movement - I haven't missed them at all. They're horribly expensive and yield little value in return. I find that they contribute nothing to my hard matchups and smart opponents can often neutralize their mobility / force them into a spot where I can't charge. Overall, Swordmasters are just plain better in my situation. I think the same applies for you because of Timewarp but it's hard for me to say as I haven't played the Coven yet.

Looking forward to the last game :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#435 Post by SpellArcher »

Brewmaster_D wrote:I agree with your switch to the book of Arkhan here
Have you guys turned to the Dark Side?

:)

Though Vanhels could be useful...

Awful game Brewmaster, I really feel for you. Plus it throws your rhythm off, it's hard to play your best when you're having to take the guy on over rules, manners, etc..
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#436 Post by Baeronvonbleat »

The frustration of bad players in a tournament game, or any game for that matter... nothing you can do about that!

Rules to point out, and suggestions for the battle however!

Turn 2 - Swordmasters charge leadbelchers, they flee (good). How far away were the leadbelchers from the eagle at this point? You've got 22 inches to force a second charge, and push em off the board. As the eagle didn't go too far the next turn, I don't think this would have hurt your gameplan.-

Reavers vs Mournfang - If he had charged the Reavers turn 3, the unit would hold, and get obliterated. The over-run would bring him... right near your mages? Or would it have hit your spearmen? Either way, I'm not sure the end result would have been pretty. Also, if he had multi charged the reavers, the Ironguts would control the flee route. What are your thoughts on having the reavers charge the mournfang Turn 2? Move your SB swordmasters full move (or near enough to have an easy charge on the mournfang). Reavers should win/tie/lose by 1, but should stay in place for a turn, and if he reforms, they'll be wiped out, leaving the mournfang open to a counter charge by the swordmasters (And these guys don't take being charged well). Full attacks by the swordmasters should do 8 wounds or so, leaving only 2 mournfang to strike back, and winning combat handily.

Overall, hate to see the game turn out that way, and even a win against an opponent like that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#437 Post by Brewmaster_D »

@ Curu and Baeron - Nice catch on the eagle here. Reminds me of another thing. It was my full intention here to flee the belchers off the board with the eagle here, but I forgot to declare the second charge with the eagle. I moved my reavers then remembered, asked him if he'd let me have it given how lenient I'd been with his own troops movement and he wouldn't let me have it. By the rules though, he's right. I made a normal move, so the error is mine.

@ Curu -

T1 - Yeah, he tested for Dangerous Terrain here, but didn't suffer a wound. Looking very carefully at the photo, I think he can get around the house, but just barely.

I moved up on the Western Flank T1 for two reasons - First to threaten the exposed leadbelchers, and second to create some charge angles in the middle that discourages aggressive movement on his behalf. Apparently this worked better than I could have imagined, because he doesn't advance at all in the next turn.

I definitely had ranged superiority, but I definitely didn't have him trumped completely. Fireball and Flamestorm still posed a significant threat, and one irresistable powered up fireball had a good chance of neutralizing one of my units of elites. Plus with no chaff, I was confident in my ability to get a combo charge off on one of his blocks.

T2 - Yep, definitely going to be more of a hardass in the future. Did he march? Yes-ish? He just sort of mushed them where he wanted them to go, then I called him on it but by that time they'd already moved again.

The White Lion and spear move here was an attempt to bait him into a bad spot. I agree with you here though - At this point I think his intentions to just shuffle around on his end were clear, so I could have happily just sat back and banished his units.

2x Banishment probably would have been better here, but I was confident that I could keep that flank at bay with my two redirectors, so my focus was on lining up the combat on the left. That unit of Ogres was my primary target for the first half of the game due to it's relatively low hitting power vs. the amount of points contained within it. Having suffered 1 miscast already this game, I was also reluctant to start 4 dicing spells as I couldn't afford a magical feedback, or worse a dimensional cascade. I do, however, think that the higher risk route you suggest would have paid off here in retrospect.

T3 - I was pretty confident a combo from the swordmasters and the white lions could take him on here (sorry about the arrow colours in T4, those are actually both failed charges). With buffs (I can usually count on at least 1 a turn), I think these guys would mince through his unit and break them no problem. His guts were even back a bit, so I could have lined it up for a White Lion overrun into them as well.

You think I would have had trouble breaking that unit?

T4 - Agree here, not my best played game, but when you're up against a player like this, it's tough to stay sharp if you know what I'm saying. Frustration got the better of me.

I'm thinking that might be my next change to my list though, Curu. Drop the Princes and swap in some more Lions or Swordmasters. I'll have to do some analysis on my past matches when the dust settles, but I think I'm inclined to agree that this list plays best as a defensive countercharge based list, which doesn't really need a mobile element as much.

@SpellArcher
- He started it!

Good point about throwing your rhythm off. It's tough to describe, but it's a lot harder than I expected to stay into a game where you're genuinely not enjoying yourself. I mean, this wasn't even a losing match for me until the very end, so I can't even say I was being a sore loser.

@Baeronvonbleat - The overrun on the reavers would have brought him either into position to expose a flank to my spears or swordmasters, so almost certain destruction in the next turn. I also in the High Elf Turn 3 photo fail to show my move of changing the arc of the swordmasters, but fix it in the next one.

The reaver move is a bit risky I think. I've got static combat resolution of 2, and get 5 S4 attacks and 5 S3 attacks. But it's definitely something to think about that I hadn't considered. If that unit was my Dragon Princes, this would have been a no-brainer, but in this case I could have used the eagle for cover should the plan fail as well.

Definitely something to consider.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#438 Post by Findolfin »

Well, you did not answer me just before your report but it do seems it was indeed in Montreal Canada. That guy playing the ogres is me ! JK :lol:

Kiding aside, provided I finish painting my stuff, I might try make it to that tourney one day and maybe play one against you :)

On topic, I think there is two big lessons in there, one you learned and one you teached.

- Learned: Always keep your cool. In this game, once that thundertusk was out, all you add to do is take out the lead belchers and contain the mournfangs ( granted, not easy to do when they blink 1" , triple wheel and stuff ). If I had been you, and lost my nerve ( it does happen to everyone ) , considering you could not win the tourney and you had no fun, I would have simply yielded faking an emergency phone. Sportsmanship is one thing, submitting yourself to torture is another one. A game is meant to be fun ( I'm not refering to winning or losing here). If it's not fun: walk away.

- Teached: Always bring a camera. Constructively for battle reports, and as you elegantly shown us: a picture = 1000 words. :lol:

Also, I think your reavers did a splendid job until you sent them away unto the belchers. He seemed timid into charging your redirectors. All hell broke lose when the reavers went MIA :(
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#439 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Findolfin!

We're actually all based around the area the tournament is held in - Kitchener, Ontario and the Toronto area. It'd be awesome if you popped down for next year's warmasters! The more the merrier

Bringing a camera is one thing - remembering to use it when it counts is another altogether :P I really missed the boat here.

I honestly thought there was no way those reavers could fail at getting me the points for those leadbelchers. 4 ASF S4 attacks, plus two combat resolution from a charge and flank. They totally whiffed their attacks, and he got the last laugh here when he reformed the belchers and wiped them out in the next turn. Argh!

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#440 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster,

Although it seems you can do nothing to change the attitude of some people it is very important to talk about it in public. I would simply say your Ogre-Judge :) that you are in trouble with the guy who cheats and hence the number of calls. There were tournaments in the past where one judge was sometimes attached to particularly troublesome players to watch the game and prevent any cheating. There is also "greater good" in standing against such behavior. There is a kind of a cheater player who will gently push the limit all the time. You do not let him do something now, he will try that later. You cannot give it up. And if you make it known, even by telling the judges or his next opponent and then make it public as in this report there is a chance he will be reluctant to do it again. If you don't stand against it he will simply cheat less experienced player in his next game.

I was also looking at the deployment you had and I really like it. It was compact but all the units were in right positions and if not for cheating you would have that game.

I am looking forward the 4th (last?) game. I hope this time it will be much better :)

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#441 Post by Apothecary »

Brewmaster_D wrote:
It's killing me to know though - did anybody else kill the 100 rat unit? I said it at the tournament and I'll say it again - that thing made my day lol =D>

D
Game 1 - Vs. Dwarves: End result, 40+ rats survive after killing 30 man Hammer unit with BSB. Scream from the back corner was BSB running as the last play of the game.

Game 2 - You: 7 Handlers + Skweel run away, and continue on their merry way to fight another day.

Game 3 - Vs. Darryl's Teclis High Elves - 4 or 5 Giant Rats died between combined first of Burning Head and Flame Cage...

Game 4 - Vs. Daemons: 30 or so Giant Rats and Handlers run but rally and end up standing in the middle of the table.

So, you came the closest of anyone.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#442 Post by Brewmaster_D »

@Swordmaster - For sure, lesson learned here. In general, but particularly in a tournament setting, I'm going to be more of a hardass about the rules. I'm easy going to a fault sometimes and I let this guy get away with murder.

Having said that, it's in the past, and I'm over it. I'm looking on to my next tournament, which incidentally is in about a month. Same point level but much smaller, however many of the top players from this one will be attending as well, so I expect plenty of competition!

I'll try to get the next battle report up tomorrow or the next day.

@Apothecary - Oh thank god. Since I didn't win anything at the tournament, I immediately fashioned myself a "rat killer" ribbon when I got home to celebrate my victory over that unit. I've been wearing it all week, so boy would my face have been red if I wasn't the only one to take it on successfully

:P

Here's to hoping you can make it out for the tournament in April! I definitely wouldn't mind a rematch vs your skaven. It's looking like 4 or 5 of us from Kitchener will be heading out there.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#443 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Another tournament in just one month, excellent! Would there be any changes in the rulepack? This one seem to have a number of additional conditions one should have considered in his/her games.

No rush with another report, you are keeping an excellent pace already, thanks for that! :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#444 Post by Curu Olannon »

Brewmaster_D wrote:
@ Curu -

T1 - Yeah, he tested for Dangerous Terrain here, but didn't suffer a wound. Looking very carefully at the photo, I think he can get around the house, but just barely.

Yeah it's hard to tell from a photo. I usually make this very clear in the beginning of a game so people know that I'll be strict about it - it really does make a huge difference, especially when playing mobility-critical lists such as mine where redirection and force application are key elements.

I moved up on the Western Flank T1 for two reasons - First to threaten the exposed leadbelchers, and second to create some charge angles in the middle that discourages aggressive movement on his behalf. Apparently this worked better than I could have imagined, because he doesn't advance at all in the next turn.

I definitely had ranged superiority, but I definitely didn't have him trumped completely. Fireball and Flamestorm still posed a significant threat, and one irresistable powered up fireball had a good chance of neutralizing one of my units of elites. Plus with no chaff, I was confident in my ability to get a combo charge off on one of his blocks.

I think you're overestimating both his ranged capabilities and the probability for getting off a combo-charge here. Remember that with 2 units at 7+ to charge only has a ~30% chance of both getting it through. Also, don't forget how holding back implicitly boosts Timewarp as you have a lot more space to manoeuver.

T2 - Yep, definitely going to be more of a hardass in the future. Did he march? Yes-ish? He just sort of mushed them where he wanted them to go, then I called him on it but by that time they'd already moved again.

At the very least call for a dangerous terrain test and force him to make a charge test.

The White Lion and spear move here was an attempt to bait him into a bad spot. I agree with you here though - At this point I think his intentions to just shuffle around on his end were clear, so I could have happily just sat back and banished his units.

2x Banishment probably would have been better here, but I was confident that I could keep that flank at bay with my two redirectors, so my focus was on lining up the combat on the left. That unit of Ogres was my primary target for the first half of the game due to it's relatively low hitting power vs. the amount of points contained within it. Having suffered 1 miscast already this game, I was also reluctant to start 4 dicing spells as I couldn't afford a magical feedback, or worse a dimensional cascade. I do, however, think that the higher risk route you suggest would have paid off here in retrospect.

I didn't consider the miscast potential but the margins between 3 and 4 dice are very small, especially considering that with 3D6 you get to cast more spells.

T3 - I was pretty confident a combo from the swordmasters and the white lions could take him on here (sorry about the arrow colours in T4, those are actually both failed charges). With buffs (I can usually count on at least 1 a turn), I think these guys would mince through his unit and break them no problem. His guts were even back a bit, so I could have lined it up for a White Lion overrun into them as well.

You think I would have had trouble breaking that unit?

I haven't done the math, but it still feels like you pretty much thought like this: "this situation looks good, he's super annoying and I just want this over with. CHARGE!" While it could be good, I'm not sure if it's optimal.

T4 - Agree here, not my best played game, but when you're up against a player like this, it's tough to stay sharp if you know what I'm saying. Frustration got the better of me.

Yeah it does that with all of us sometimes, unfortunately. Next time though you'll be better equipped to deal with it.

I'm thinking that might be my next change to my list though, Curu. Drop the Princes and swap in some more Lions or Swordmasters. I'll have to do some analysis on my past matches when the dust settles, but I think I'm inclined to agree that this list plays best as a defensive countercharge based list, which doesn't really need a mobile element as much.
List change sounds interesting! I'm very much looking forward to reading about it and your thoughts with regards to the next tournament ;)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#445 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

@ Swordmaster - I'm just waiting for the rulepack to be submitted, but I expect it to be similar, perhaps minus the fortitude point secondary objective. Same points level as well.

@ Curu - Yeah, I guess I've been spoiled up until this point in that I've always had the luxury of going up against players who either knew the rules or are really good about the fact that they don't know them and let me help them out. So you could say that this experience was a first for me - pity it was at a tournament that I spent the better part of a year preparing for lol.

Regarding the Swordmasters + White Lions combo that I set up - yeah, you're right, two charges on 7's is much more risky than I should have attempted. Remember too, though, that I moved them up to be within easy charge range, but when he backed them up he pulled his "Back becomes the front" stunt, then stole a few inches when he put them back. I didn't notice till I rolled for my charges and said to myself "I could have sworn these guys were way closer than this to his unit, even with his unit backing up".

Having said that, looking at the forest for the trees, I think you're right - when he first started his backing up maneuvers, I should have seen what was going on and just pulled my redirectors back (to not lose them) and layed into him with focused banishments. I started the game with 250 points up on him from the thundertusk, so if I could take out the mournfangs and leadbelchers with banishment I'd have probably taken the game without losing a unit lol.

His first Mournfang charge which was blatant cheating just threw my whole game off.


Sorry for the delay in getting the last game up guys - I've got the photos done, I just need to do a writeup. Having said that, don't expect too much from it. At this point in the day I had a record of Draw, Draw, Loss, so my last match was against a newer player whose Tomb Kings had had a day similar to mine.

I'll post some thoughts on possible list changes soon as well!

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#446 Post by Curu Olannon »

What I usually do is that I clarify central issues with my opponent way before they're obvious. To explain, take the following example:

My Dragon wants to get into a strong position but the perfect position is just 20" away. I move the model (carefully putting a dice where it left from) and spend maybe a minute or two to ensure that I'm out of crucial angles etc. When I finally put it down, I ask my opponent to confirm my thoughts - e.g. "are we agree that I am just barely within 16" of that unit and that the other unit doesn't have it in its forward arc?". Now as soon as someone agrees with this, they really can't do anything about it when their movement phase arrives. It doesn't really give away a lot of your plan either, in your case the Reavers blocking the Mournfang was very obvious. What you could've done here was to take your ruler and simulate the arc from the corner of the Mournfang, clearly asking your opponent if he agrees that you are indeed blocking them. Clarifying these issues in your movement phase as opposed to his lets you be 100% sure that the situation is as you want it to be way before he even has a chance of ruining it :)

Looking forward to the last report :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#447 Post by SpellArcher »

Brewmaster, have you ever faced the Stone of Spite?
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#448 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

@ Curu - Yeah, I definitely learned a lot this tournament - namely in dealing with opponents like these, and in handling the games overall (for example, time limits). I'll be heading in to the next one guns-a-blazing though, that's for sure!

@ SpellArcher - Unfortunately there's not too many Beastmen players in my parts. In the one match I've had versus them, it was against a herdstone coven and a Great Bray Shaman with the Jagged Dagger. Having said that, this item poses a similar threat as the hellheart, so I'd look to lean on the Ring of Corin to bail me out if I suspected this item due to aggressive movement.

Have you had any nasty experiences with it? I could see it ending poor Teclis' day pretty quickly lol.

Sorry once again guys for not getting that last report up quickly. I've had one of "those" weeks this week and just haven't had time to do the writeup. Things should settle down this weekend, however, and I'll post the match and my overall list thoughts as well.

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
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SpellArcher
Green Istari
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#449 Post by SpellArcher »

Brewmaster_D wrote:@ SpellArcher - Unfortunately there's not too many Beastmen players in my parts. In the one match I've had versus them, it was against a herdstone coven and a Great Bray Shaman with the Jagged Dagger. Having said that, this item poses a similar threat as the hellheart, so I'd look to lean on the Ring of Corin to bail me out if I suspected this item due to aggressive movement.
Yeah, I don't know whether a Beastlord features often but I'd worry about one advancing towards me in a Gor Horde. Likely he'd have the Beast Banner on the BSB though, so a speculative casting of Vaul's on the unit wouldn't be wasted.

Of course this item is a problem for any list with a Ward-less mage (such as mine!) but yours would really have to watch out for it I guess. There's also that Scouting item for Shamen isn't there, or is that Enchanted too?
Caradryal
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Tournament Game 3

#450 Post by Caradryal »

Hey master D

It sure sounds like you had fun here even if that ogre player was bending the rules somewhat. It's fine being inexperienced and getting it wrong but he was clearly cheating!

There nothing I can add here that hasn't already been covered by the experienced players but I sure enjoyed reading it. Every time I read one of your battle reports I learn a little more about light magic which is really helping me! :D I look forward to reading about the next tourney.

I've made the switch to a light coven myself at the moment as it seems to be working better for me. I just can't get the best out of my expensive prince! :? Going to stick with the coven for a while and hopefully I can get him back in when the 8th ed book arrives.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=46653]New Blog - Warlock of the Black Tower(8th Edition)[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=49906]Ogre Blog - The Manglegut Tribe[/url]

[color=#000000]Caradryal's Host (HE) W 1 D 0 L 1[/color]
[color=#FF0000]The Manglegut Tribe (Ogres) W 3 D0 L2[/color]
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