Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - 05/12 Battle Report

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Brewmaster_D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#511 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Everyone!

Thanks so much for the responses - sorry for the delay in responding myself. I've been quite busy both playing games, and getting a box of archers built, based and painted for the tournament coming up on Saturday. Hm, I'm having flashbacks of the last tournament I entered here...

@ dabber - thanks for crunching those numbers! You'll find, as soon as I post the next match, that it was in fact very valuable that you did that math. I'll save the rest for the battle report ;)

I won't comment too much on the Dark Elf match here, since I already know how things turn out - I did, however, read everyone's response, and many of your points effected the way I played the match. Just doing up the Battle Chronicler for that one.

@ Seredain - I've always been of the view that Core troops and characters are support in our army. Whenever I make a list, I find myself coming up with a general idea then building an army around that. It took me so long to try archers here because this list really has evolved over time; what started out as a medium magic, highly movement based list has morphed over time into the defensive, heavy magic list you see before you now.

I think what you mention in your post really highlights my point about core supporting your army build - you've got a great setup featuring mobility and hitting power, so it's only logical that you include the spears to help you out with breaking steadfast in winning combats. You don't have the luxury of the crushing hitting power that the lions present.

I'll get some photos up of the next match, I promise!

@ Swordmaster - What I'm really striving for here is an all comers list that can survive in the harsh, uncomped environment that I exist in. In friendly games, when I'm looking for an intricate game of warhammer and accept that I've got certain vulnerabilities (like panic and impact hits) that can be exploited, then I'll most certainly be fielding the more MSU version of this list.

However, right now, leading up to this tournament and possibly another next month, I'm looking at one thing: what is the most optimal build that will give me answers to all of the ugly things I'm bound to see. It's tough to dismiss the effectiveness of that Lion horde - wait till you see the reaction it gets in the next couple matches. This really is its own form of board control, and still requires skill to wield properly - in my opinion.

@ pk-ng - Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for pointing out the issue with the engine after the priest death - good thing to remember.

Regarding the archer horde - naturally this will be situational. Hills help, as they often open up the possibility of deploying combat troops in front of missile troops. However, I wouldn't say this is critical. The Lion horde puts out such a threat radius that even beside the archers (particularly if they're timewarped :P), they can be used to keep the opponent at bay.

Again, though, it'll depend on your list's build.

@ Eldira - Interesting idea - no, I hadn't considered it. It certainly answers some of the questions I've been having about the Greedy Fist/Death Snipe combo. Ultimately I wish that this thing included spells like Dwellers, in which case it would be an auto-include. Having said that - let me think on this one for a bit. I want to look back on my past matches and see where it might have been useful.

Battle Reports coming soon, so keep your eyes peeled!

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#512 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster!

I have no doubt White Lions will shine in your list. Funny, but after my recent game where I managed to pull out a charge of 5 units against 1 of the enemy I started to wonder how White Lion horde would handle the enemy instead. I came to the conclusion they would destroyed it faster as they don't need a few movement phases to put units in right position and with the addition of Timewarp they would chop down the Gor horde I faced in 1-2 turns at most.

No wonder you prefer such powerful and safe in use units for tournament. You can also make less mistakes with this regiment as it is so easy to blunder with smaller but more numerous units. As always it came down to personal priorities.

Looking forward to the report and also to the news from upcoming tournament.

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#513 Post by Curu Olannon »

There is no magically 'safe and powerful' about a horde of White Lions, Swordmaster. It is not inherently an easier unit to use compared to wielding 5x6 Lions, msu-style, for example. While MSU demands intricate movement and complex planning, a horde has multiple other weaknesses. The White Lion horde is hugely overrated, lots of people use it and it loses them games, plain and simple. Perhaps you don't see this but view it as the 'easy way out', I don't know, but the fact is that it is a unit with lots of weaknesses. At last year's ETC in Switzerland, High Elves performed very poorly as you may know. Looking at the lists, there was one element that was recurring in almost every single one: a Horde of White Lions. The few successful ones took stuff like PG + Shadow Magic etc. There is no grounds for stating that you can make less mistakes with this one unit than you can with a number of smaller units.

There are so many weaknesses which affect the Lion Horde:
- chaff can redirect it as they please
- big spells and war machines are devastating
- one mistake will frequently be huge
- its huge footprint makes it hard to manoevre properly
- there are big units it cannot go toe-to-toe with

Just stop and think for a moment just how massively these points impact your game. I view the common perception that the Lion Horde is an automatic include in a power-army as one of the biggest misconceptions regarding High Elves. It is very effective in games on a lower skill level, which is probably why it's gotten its reputation for being so good, however using it against good players require a certain context (e.g. Coven of Light - which we have yet to discover whether is effective or not with this configuration) and lots of skill.

Brewmaster - one thing I frequently find is that the combined footprint of Archers + White Lions take up way more board space than I'd prefer. The only reason I'm willing to accept this is because I have the mobility in the shape of my flyers (and the +1M banner), as otherwise the battleline could quickly be too cumbersome to reform to face an arbitrary threat. In your case, you don't have the same mobility luxury (obviously). Therefore, I would strongly suggest that you practice deployment (even if on your own!) just to get a good feel of just how huge these units' footprint is (combined) and how it affects your early turns. Ways of mitigating this natural weakness are as follows:
- place your Swordmasters opposite to allow for flank flexibility
- place Archers on Hills or in buildings etc if applicable
- deploy in a non-standard formation with the intention of free reforming T1
- use Timewarp to get the movement needed
- try and use it to your advantage by funneling the enemy to your Lions, instead of having to do it the other way around. Not sure how this can be done on a general basis, but the Coven is key here

There are probably some more, but these were the ones I could think of at the moment.

Looking forward to the DE report! The first few games with a new setup always make for a lot of interesting analysis :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#514 Post by SpellArcher »

Loremasters Cloak is great but it's not an answer to the GreedyFist unfortunately. This works on hits inflicted, so saves vs wounds don't even come into play.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#515 Post by Eldria »

SpellArcher wrote:Loremasters Cloak is great but it's not an answer to the GreedyFist unfortunately. This works on hits inflicted, so saves vs wounds don't even come into play.
At least your 460 points up from not having it. But yeah you still get wiped as a wizard which is slightly vexing.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#516 Post by Curu Olannon »

If you consider MR to be of good value in a given context, the Loremaster's Cloak is downright the best item in the game, as far as I know. Just compare its cost to the MR items in the rulebook.

The question then becomes - do you need MR?
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#517 Post by Brewmaster_D »

The Ghost and the Darkness

Bonus points for anyone who catches the movie reference :P

Last Thursday I popped out to our local game night and fielded my new list style for the first time at 2500 points. Eager to see how it performs against different styles of armies, I was quite bemused when I drew a second Lizardman opponent. He had a different style of Lizardman list, though, with no Saurus and shadow magic.

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Talisman of Protection (or whichever one the 4+ ward is :P), Jewel of the Dusk
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Level 1, Anulian Crystal
Mage, Level 1, Ring of Corin, Skeinsliver

30 x Archers, Musician, Banner, Banner of Discipline
24 x Archers, Musician

30 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
26 x Swordmasters, Standard, Champion, Standard of Balance

2 x Great Eagles

Lizardmen

Slann Mage Priest, Cupped Hands, Focused Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Loremaster Shadows
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll
Scar Veteran, Cold One, Sword of Might

30 x Skinks, 2 Kroxigors
30 x Skinks, 2 Kroxigors
10 x Skink Skirmishers
10 x Skink Skirmishers

24 x Temple Guard, Full Command
9 x Cold One Knights, Full Command, Banner of Charge an extra D6"
2 x Salamanders
2 x Salamanders

Spells
Slann - All Shadow spells
Skink - Harmonic Convergence

Archmage - Pha's, Speed, Banishment, Timewarp
Crystal Mage - Light of Battle
Ring Mage - Net of Amyntok

Deployment

Image

I take advantage of the hill for my archers, but I feel the sting of fewer drops - his salamanders are both lined up against my elites. In retrospect, I should have deployed the Swordmasters in horde formation as well to reduce the vulnerability to their breath attacks.

We roll off, and thanks to the skeinsliver I go first.

Turn 1, High Elves

Image

My eagles move up to threaten a charge through (over?) the forests on any skinks that get aggressive, and the rest of my troops stay back out of the salamander "danger zone"

Magic is 9 v 3 - I start with a 4D6 banishment on the Eastern salamanders, but roll pretty low and he dispels with 3. I chuck another 4D6 at the same spell on my level 2, and this gets scrolled. With my final D6, I put up Pha's protection on the White Lions.

Shooting on the cold ones totally whiffs on the Cold One Knights (Salamanders were either out of range or behind cover + Skirmished)

Turn 1, Lizardmen

Image

Naturally, the salamanders move up. One unit is in a decent position to hit the swordmasters, and the other is going to need some really good luck to hit them.

Magic is 5 v 7 - He starts off the phase by saying "Well, no use for subtlety here, 6D6 at withering on the swordmasters". His resulting roll is a miscast, which he sends to my archmage using cupped hands. I blow up a few archers and he puts my swordmasters down to T1... uh oh.

His Western salamander shots both fall short, but the eastern ones... well let's just say this got ugly. T1 swordmasters don't like salamander flame breath - 14 of them fall to the ground. Looks like I won't be too popular at the army christmas party this year.

His skink cohort and skirmishers only manage 1 wound on the eagle due to the cover provided by the forest, and we move on to my turn.

Turn 2, High Elves

Image
Image

(one of the few cellphone pictures that didn't come out blurry as anything :P That's for you Seredain!)

The swordmasters issue a charge on the salamanders, who opt to flee. My eagle issues a charge on the skink skirmishers through the forest, hoping the modifiers to hit provides enough cover.

Magic is 12 v 5 - I lead off with a 3D6 banish on his western Salamanders, which he dispels with 5. My level 2 attempts a banishment on 3D6, but fails the cast :/

I throw 4D6 at a pha's bubble - I don't want to risk failing a second cast and potentially having unprotected troops versus another round of salamander fire. Finally, I finish the turn with a 2D6 ring of corin; cupped hands is spent, so I put it on the unit of cold ones suspecting the crown of command might be present. Turns out it's not, it's a different trick - I destroy the banner that allows him to make ridiculously long charges.

I direct all of my shots at the now exposed salamanders, hoping for a bit of luck here. As it turns out, luck was on my side and the archers laid waste to the pesky lizards.

The eagle makes it through the forest unscathed, and breaks the skinks but fails to catch them.

Turn 2, Lizardmen

Image

The Lion's forward movement forces his Western units back, and on the eastern flank he moves up his cohort to shoot the swordmasters. His knights don't want to get redirected into the lions, and don't want to take a charge from the swordmasters, so they back up as well.

Magic is 3 v 3 - he puts a harmonic convergence on his skink cohort, which I allow. With my dice, I dispel Withering.

His shooting manages a wound on the swordmasters, and we move to my turn

Turn 3, High Elves

Image

My lions move up to force anyone engaging them to fight in the forest, surrendering steadfast (although it doesn't matter in the case of the temple guard). They're still out of probably charge range of his units.

Both the swordmasters and the eagle charge their targets, but unfortunately the eagle doesn't have the same luck as last time and falls to the poisoned darts.

Magic is 7 v 3 - I start with a 4D6 banishment on his salamanders. 8 hits leaves one behind with one wound (the handler rule is ridiculous!). I then put a 3D6 timewarp on the swordmasters, but he dispels it.

Some insanely bad rolling on his part has him only put a couple wounds on my swordmasters, and they put 12 or so on him in return. Due to being in the forest, he's not steadfast and breaks from combat, however I fail to catch him.

Turn 3, Lizardmen

Image

His Cold ones turn to the East to support his ailing cohort, and his blocks once again back up from the block of lions.

Magic is 5 v 6 - He starts with a harmonic convergence on the cohort again, and i dispel it with 2. He then throws 3D6 +1 at withering on the swordmasters, but I dispel it with 4D6.

His shooting manages to pick off a couple swordmasters and archers, and we move the game along.

Turn 4, High Elves

Image

The lions continue their slow plod forward - incidentally it's really working in my favour because it keeps pushing back his Becalming Cogitation range. The swordmasters charge in to the cohort, while the eagle moves up to cover their flank.

Magic is 12 v 7 - I start with a 4D6 Banishment, which he dispels with 4 dice irresistably. I try a 2D6 pha's on the swordmasters, which he dispels with 3, then I cast the same spell again on 2D6 successfully. I finish off the phase with a 4D6 banishment from my level 2 on the cold ones - a low roll for hits sees only 4 die.

My archers put all their shots into the cold ones as well, and manage to drop another.

In combat, the combat swings the other way this time - a lucky string of hits from the kroxigors sees all but one swordmaster die. They still win combat, but the cohort is now stubborn and holds.

Turn 4, Lizardmen


Image

Once again, the troops move backwards, and his cold ones move to take out the eagle.

Magic is 5 v 5 - He throws 5D6+1 at enfeebling foe on the White Lions, but I manage a dispel on 5D6.

His skinks manage a couple more wounds on the archers (not pictured), and his cohort finishes off the swordmasters. Ouch - that nets him over 400 points!

Turn 5, High Elves

Image

The Lions move up once again, a bit more aggressively this time. The archmage pops over into the other unit of archers, who move up to get him within 12" range of the White Lions.

Magic is 8 v 6 - I start with a 3D6 banishment on his unit of cold ones; he knows that he has to stop this, as it will likely cost him the game to lose them at this point. He dispels my low-ish roll with 3D6. I then put 4D6 at timewarp on the lions, making his escape impossible next turn. My final attempt at a D6 pha's on the lions fails

I fire all the archers at the cold ones, and due to being beneath 5 models, some get distributed to the hero. I manage 2 6's to wound, and he rolls snakeyes for his armour save! The remaining shots take down one more cold one.

Turn 5, Lizardmen


Image

Knowing escape was only possible by offering the rear of his unit to my lions, and even then not likely, he moves up his temple guard to fight the lions - he commented that in retrospect he should have just sacrificed the cohort, but thought the TG might actually have a chance with magic support.

Magic is 9 v 9 (holy channels, batman!) - He starts off with a 3D6+1 Miasma, powered up. I let him have that, and he follows up with a 5D6+1 Enfeebling foe on the lions - I don't risk it and dispel it with everything. His D6 attempt at harmonic convergence on the TG fails.

Turn 6, High Elves

Image

It's now or never, so the Lions smash into the temple guard. I know I'll need a bit of magic assistance here, as I'm already hitting on 4's due to miasma.

Magic is 10 v 5 - I start with a 3D6 Pha's protection on the lions - he attempts to dispel with 3, but fails. I put another 3D6 pha's on the lions, then a 4d6 speed of light, all of which go off.

I put all my shots on the Cold ones, and being in close range now, I manage to finish off the unit.

The lions do what they do best and melt 16 of his temple guard. His return attacks only manage 3 wounds due to his hitting on 6's. He holds due to stubborn

Turn 6, Lizardmen

Image

My notes are sketchy about the spells cast here, but I know the totals were 9 v 8, and I managed to shut down Enfeebling foe. The lions finish the job on the Temple Guard, and the slann flees, destroying him automatically due to being the BSB.

That's game! Victory for the coven!

After battle thoughts:

I think my opponent could have gotten a lot more mileage out of the magic phase than he did; leading off with lots of big casts really de-values the power of a slann adding dice to every casting attempt. The skink attempting casts also brings the phase down to manageable levels and plays into my hands a bit. Having said that, Shadow is actually a tough lore to field against High Elves - more on this later!

In terms of my own playing - the lions really shone through again here. Yes, they "only" took one unit in this game, however the control they give you over a huge amount of boardspace is incredible! The difference is quite stark - whereas with my MSU style the opponents were often extremely aggressive, now approaches are very timid, to put it lightly.

The lizard turn 1 was pretty harsh for me - irresistable withering on those swords, then the perfect hit with the salamanders. Ouch! The threat range from those guys is incredible, and I certainly learned my lesson here (again...) to give them a wide berth and measure out their targettable area. Normally I make a dice circle to help me visualize their radius, much to the amusement of my opponents, but in this case I forgot, and it cost me.

Had I not lost so many swordmasters on turn 1, the game would have been quite different as well. Full strength Swordmasters would have made short work of the cohort and allowed me to assault from two angles, likely resulting in a much more commanding victory.

Lesson learned - don't underestimate the salamanders, even if you have plenty of means to deal with them!

Bringing Light to the Shadows

I had something of a revalation this game, and I don't know why it hasn't really dawned on me before; The lore of light has got to be one of the most effective tools in the game for combatting Shadow magic. Go figure, right?

Let's look at it in terms of spells:

Miasma - reduces movement, weaponskill, ballistic skill and initiative

vs.

Speed of Light - WS10 & I10
Timewarp - Double movement

Leaving the only "real" threat its ability to reduce Ballistic skill. Essentially the lore of light allows you to completely nullify its effects in your own turn.

Withering & Mindrazor - Drastically increases the throughput of wounds per hit

vs.

Speed of Light & Pha's Protection - Drastically decreases the number of hits

Once again, with your own magic phase, you can effectively counter theirs.

With pit and pendulum not being a huge concern to us with Initiative 5, and the ability to pre-emptively cast speed of light if any sort of miasma/pit treachery is suspected.

Anyway, I just thought that was kind of neat, and really works out well for me considering it's one of the most common lores these days.

D
Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#518 Post by dabber »

How wide did you deploy the Swordmasters? 7? Against 25mm bases, 7 wide seems the worst possible to me.
Were his skrox units 6 skinks wide?


His skinks have javelins instead of blowpipes? That would let them always stand-and-shoot, and thus kill the Eagle on turn 3? The turn 2 Eagle to skink charge should be no risk, because the forest makes him hit on 7s, and thus no poison. His expected value is 0.27 wounds. Still he rolled well to drop the Eagle on the turn 3 charge, since he averages under 2 wounds.

Swordmasters vs Skinks+Kroxigors
I'm a little surprised you attempted to Timewarp the Swordmasters fighting the skrox unit on turn 3. Why is killing about 5 more skinks important? I think I would have tried two casts of Pha's, as that might save a couple swordmasters.

At the same time, why not charge the other Eagle into that fight? It gives you about 2 more skink kills, and a swiftstride pursuit. The Krox cannot attack sideways (assuming 6 wide), and the skinks shouldn't hurt the Eagle.

Why does the Eagle need to cover the Swordmaster flank? Either they smash the cohort and reform to avoid a flank charge, or they still have skinks to kill and don't care much about a flank charge.

I like your turn 4 magic phase. Force him to dispel with a reliable Banishment. Do a low cost but reliable augment, twice. Throw the big banishment to finish the phase. Although Pha's obviously works in reverse this game - it appears to make them easier to hit. :)

Did you allocate on the skink priest at all? Why not? He is always worth 2 attacks.

back to other matters

Really lucky turn 5 shooting! The way this is going, that character might be the difference in points.

He wanted to see what would happen, but he didn't have the tools to buff his TG. This goes differently if he has Light or Life on the Slann, I think.


The other big weakness of Shadow is that two of the best spells are "remains in play". Unless the decisive combat round is on the Shadow-caster's turn, that aspect gives the other player control. In this case, the attempt at Withering at Turn 5 was useless. If it had gotten off, you just dispel it in your turn, and all it costs is one less Light spell on your side. Shadow spells are awesome, but they work much better with an agressively attacking army.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#519 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey dabber!

Yeah, I regretted the swordmaster formation immediately. The movement tray was 7 wide, so I just cruise controlled it right up until those salamanders approached, and I found myself wondering what I was thinking.

The Krox units were 6 x 5 - Essentially my reasoning for timewarp was to cover my bases and get that unit. Had I had those 5 extra kills, he wouldn't have been steadfast in the next round, when we were outside of the woods. Fair point on the eagle charging in - I'm so used to them feeding people combat resolution that I didn't think of it.

The eagle diversion was both to give the swordmasters a fighting chance (which they squandered lol), and to hold that unit of cold ones in place for more arrow fire.

The skink priest didn't get any attention because he looked identical to the other skinks - beautifully painted models, but it merges into a sea of blue. My mistake for not clarifying where he was, and it's going on my "Things to remember" list during the tournament.

I agree totally about the shortcomings of shadow, and I'd like to add as well that most of the effects are random as well. When you really need that 2 or 3 on a D3, you inevitably get the 1. Of course, this coming from the guy banking on a 2D6 magic missile most games lol.

Two biggest things I took away here, both from your comments and the match were to avoid getting "stuck" in the mindset of one formation, and to really take note of where the characters are and look for opportunities to capture points that way.



Dark Elf match on the way as well!

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#520 Post by Baeronvonbleat »

Title Reference: Lion Hunting, anyone? Either the lions are going to do serious damage, or they're going to be skillfully (And tragically) hunted! Weird Van Kilmer movie btw.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#521 Post by John Rainbow »

dabber wrote:The other big weakness of Shadow is that two of the best spells are "remains in play". Unless the decisive combat round is on the Shadow-caster's turn, that aspect gives the other player control. In this case, the attempt at Withering at Turn 5 was useless. If it had gotten off, you just dispel it in your turn, and all it costs is one less Light spell on your side. Shadow spells are awesome, but they work much better with an agressively attacking army.
I don't necessarily agree that this is a bad thing or that you let your opponent control the game. While it will mean that you only get the benefits of the spell for a single phase it does mean that your opponent is forced to use dice to get rid of it. This allows you some control over their magic phase and helps even things out. There is also the chance that they might wiff their phase and not get enough dice to dispel/fail dispel.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#522 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster!

I was beaten by Baeronvonbleat in terms of movie reference. I really liked it, Val Kilmer hunting twin Lions was good too. Here you had only one big Lion but it hunted well.

There is not much to say about the game. It seems your opponent didn't know how to tackle your army. You dealt with his Salamanders quickly, decreased the number of cavalry significantly enough for him not to risk charges against archers (not to mention he lost scar veteran in the process) and Lions patiently prowled until big frog was in range for the leap. Due to his relative low number of units and no redirectors he could not even attempt to avoid your hunters. It was easy for them to reach the target with or without Timewarp. And savage ferocity of Chracians was too much for his TG to hold long enough.

Congratulations on the win! btw, I thought it was supposed to be Druchii army :)

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#523 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster!

Have the pictures done from the Dark Elf matchup, just working on the writeup.

I agree with your thoughts though - I think the list catches people off guard a bit, especially the first time they see it. You look at an artillery based list, and you say "Yup, time to get a move on". However the unassuming nature of the list I think buys me some less aggressive first couple of turns before people realize they've sustained some pretty heavy casualties from Banishment and bowfire (never thought I'd hear myself saying that...)

Any thoughts of the style of list that you think this new setup with have the toughest time against? I'm always keen to set those matches up!

D

Ps. @ Baeron - you win the movie reference prize!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#524 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster!

Well, the thing that might be a problem for you is a Daemon army with Banner of Sundering. You might also have problem against WoC if they manage to pull out that gateway as in any case of any deathstar army. Although disk riding sorcerers will be very shy to stick their nose out too. Otherwise the army is very strong and in theory counters nicely all the usual threats thanks to very good combination of archery, magic (in my opinion you have designed the most reliable and efficient magic phase I have seen so far) and combat prowess.

I will let you know if I come up with some ideas about what can give you more problems. :)

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#525 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

The toughest army for this list to beat would probably be another High Elf army, we have the magic defence to stall your magic bombardment. Have you tried a civil war battle yet D? I'd also like to see your gunline vs a more traditional gun line like dawi, or the insane chaos dwarf guns.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#526 Post by SpellArcher »

I agree that we have tools vs Shadow and Light just seems to compound this.

Say Swordmasters are fighting DE infantry. That's a ton of damage before Withering or Mindrazor kick in. If We get the charge that's 2 rounds before they have an effect by which time it's too late.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#527 Post by Curu Olannon »

Some comments about that last game:
- Army list: I don't like the big SM unit, it just doesn't fit their nature I think. Either go with 2 (!) Lion Hordes or reduce it to 14+12 would be my suggestion. Other than that it looks good :)
- Deployment: I don't see why the Elites are placed so far ahead. You're basically a gunline army and your casters' bunkers can act as anvils as well. As such, I'd have deployed them on the sides I think. With M5 it is easy to go where you're needed when you're needed and not deploying that far forward gives you better protection against sallies. True, you don't project any threat arcs in the early turns, but it buys you time to deal with the Salamanders as well (48" on Banishment is just pure gold here). With so few drops I think that carefully managing deployment and early turn moves / reforms is crucial to your success.

- T1: I'm a little surprised you move up here. Why not back off instead? Again, I'm thinking about the sallies
- T2: 3D6 from your level 2 here is a very unnecessary risk. You don't need to squeeze anything out of this phase - his dice are already gone, as is his scroll. 4D6 is a safer approach, perhaps even 5D6 if you think it's crucial.
- T3: Not really sure what your Eagle is trying to accomplish here. I'd rather put him 1" behind something, making it impossible to back up further. Charging in like that seems like wasting a very nice position for little gain. Magic - 7v3 is an interesting and favourable split for you. What is most important here, to you? I would assume it's getting Banishment through. Now, this you managed without problems, however it looks like from the diagram that you're within 24" - hence no need to boost it. At a value of 10+, I think a level 4 is fine with 3D6 - it gives you a whopping 95.4% chance of success. While he might attempt a dispel here, you still have a second cast - at 4D6 from your level 2! Long story short - same result. If he doesn't dispel however you now have a 1-dice advantage, which is way easier to work with when it comes to getting that second spell through. You could use this 4v3 in multiple ways - a second banishment, double pha's on SM, pha's on 1D6 and Timewarp on 3D6... Lots of possibilities, the main idea is that getting that extra dice can be huge. In his T3 you see exactly what I was talking about - backing further up (placing an Eagle there would've made life HARD for that Slann)
- T4: Perfect magic priority. The casts here were carefully planned and the amount of dice was just right.
- T5: Initially I thought that your magic phase was poor. Granted, 8v6 is a poor split, but still. Then I realized that Banishment isn't crucial here - but Timewarp is! Good call!

Well played, deserved win!

As for hard armies - I don't believe HE pose a particularly big problem. Yes, they have some defense, but it's nothing extraordinary unlike Dwarfs. I view Ogres as a hard matchup, but this new setup is probably better against them so it might be a neutral one. CD could be hard, but the 'mandatory' inclusion of the K'daii will only work in your favour. Dwarfs is probably your worst enemy, in an uncomped environment with Spelleater Runes and DD out the *** you're not looking at a whole lot of optimal phases. Skaven could probably also be a pain with all their tarpitters. Their toys mostly won't be a problem I think, but lacking multiple units could really hurt here. Probably using the Archers as supporting combat units will be key. Sundering Daemons, on one hand it's a real pain but on the other the Ring of Corin should provide a good counter here. I think this is one of the biggest downsides with this list under the ETC comp - lists are open and the Daemon comp is basically screaming for the Sundering Banner to be taken. With open lists, it'll be very hard to get that one-time only cast through.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#528 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

Thanks for all the comments.

@ Swordmaster - Yeah, the sundering banner is definitely a risk here. Likely I'd have to resort to shifting my focus to 1 or 2 dice spells. That means 3x shem's coming at him each turn and 2x pha's on my own units. Interestingly, this would be pretty tough for a daemon player to handle due to the lore attribute of adding D6 hits to the spells. 6D6 S4 hits for 6 power dice (or 3 even, depending how risky I'm feeling!) is an insane amount of damage output for very little power dice investment. Then there's always the 6 dice Ring of Corin option. 26% chance of swinging the game drastically in my direction isn't too terrible.

Definitely a tough matchup, I'll see if I can't line it up!

@ Tiralya - I'm definitely interested to see how the list works vs. other more traditional gunlines. Typically in a gunline war it comes down to who gets the first shot, as the cannons are usually gunning for each other. However, in this situation I have a unique advantage - my artillery sits in units. Essentially I can eliminate warmachines whereas they've got small odds of doing anything each turn. It'll really come down to whether I can punch through their magic defense before their artillery has a chance to do any serious damage.

HE vs. HE would be interesting - Unless the list is geared specifically towards countering magic, I don't see it taking too much wind out of my sails. Most lists you see on here feature either the crystal or a dispel scroll. Scrolls have marginal utility versus a trickle phase like mine, so I'd be more worried about the crystal.

Archers should handle eagles pretty quickly, leaving banishments to go on tasty elites or bolt throwers. Would definitely be interesting though!

@ Curu - 2 Lion hordes definitely crossed my mind, I'm just short on models unfortunately, hence the swordmasters. Two swordmaster units might be worth looking at though - would let me fit in some flaming attacks into my list, which we'll all soon find out might not be a terrible idea (*cough* Hydras *cough*)

The reasoning for my slightly more aggressive than normal positioning with my elites was twofold - First, salamanders get a shot on me regardless of where I am - 12" move forward, 8" template gives them an effective range of 22 - 30", forcing me right up against the board edge. Ideally I like to offer the salamanders one shot, then they get destroyed - either by fleeing and taking themselves out of the game long enough for banishment to take care of them, or by accepting the charge and getting taken out by the unit they just shot.

Second reason (And this also answers your Turn 1 question as well) - keeps the slann back out of becalming range. Nothing messes over a trickle magic phase like that one ability, since you have to cast spells with more dice than usual and still run the risk of failing a spell. Essentially the lions keeping a suppression zone down in front of the slann forced him back and freed up my mages to do what they needed to do.

Turn 2 - Agree, for the most part. Only a 16% chance of failure, but this really was a crucial cast that I missed. Even one more turn of salamander fire would have been horrific for me.

Turn 3 - This is something I didn't think of this game, and will definitely be using in the future - use the eagles to prevent units from backing up, boxing them in and forcing them into either a long charge against the lions, or worse yet accepting a Lion charge.

Turn 5 - Yeah, this phase was about as bad as it can get for me - 6 & 1 with no channels and 1 on the banner. At least he didn't channel himself :P

I'm starting to think of Timewarp like one of the most deadly magic missiles in the game with this list - 2D6 S7 hits doesn't even come close to comparing to 30 ASF S6 attacks :P. I also think of timewarp more as an investment for the next turn - since it's movement effect essentially resolves a turn later, you can use in one turn to stack up the next turn, if that makes any sense.

Next match coming up soon!

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#529 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Blinded by the Light

Next up, Dark Elves. I switched back to the 2200 format here, in preparation for my tournament this weekend. His list was a fast moving Dark Elf list with Shadow support. I felt a bit more confident than I did initially going in to this match after my recent experience versus a Shadow Slann.

High Elves

So I got my initial 2200 point list a bit wrong - I didn't have quite enough in core

Archmage, Level 4, Jewel of the Dusk (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Level 1, Anullian Crystal
Mage, Level 1, Ring of Corin, Skeinsliver

Archers x 30, Musician, Standard, Banner of Discipline
Archers x 17, Musician

White Lions x 30, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
Swordmasters x 15, Banner, Standard of Balance

2 x Great Eagles

Dark Elves

Sorceress, Sacrifical Dagger, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Master, Pegasus, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Pendant of Khaeleth, Great Sword.
Death Hag, BSB, Cauldron of Blood

25 x Warriors, Champion
20 x Repeater Crossbowmen, Musician
21 x Corsairs, AHW, Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard
5 x Harpies
5 x Harpies

21 x Witch Elves, Full Command, Banner of Murder
5 x Shades
5 x Shades

Hydra
Hydra

Spells

Supreme Sorceress - Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling Foe, Mindrazor

Archmage - Pha's, Banishment, Timewarp, Speed of Light
Mage - Net of Amyntok
Mage - Shem's Burning Gaze

Does anyone know offhand if you have to roll off to see who rolls for spells first? Most people just roll away, but I've noticed that I've been "countering" my opponent's spell selections with my own lately.

Regardless, I'm happy with the spells - Speed of Light was one of my top picks here, so it really made me more comfortable that I got it.

Deployment

Image

Deployment goes well, but not optimally; he's got enough drops to get some decent matchups. Harpies are screening the Witch elves, and the two hydras are on the far flank to address my primary combat blocks, I assume with their breath.

I win the roll off for first turn.

Going to try something a bit different here - I'll leave it here until I get a chance to get home tonight to finish up the report (just on lunch at work right now).

Two questions for you guys!

1. What are your thoughts on deployment, given I didn't have a hill to work with this time? How would you have deployed differently?
2. What would your first turn look like? What's your reasoning/strategy looking beyond turn 1?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#530 Post by Baeronvonbleat »

Hard to say here. I'm not sure what blocks LOS here.

Deployment - I'd have gone for 30 inch deployment, and held the large archer unit till last (to face off against his crossbows). If he wins first turn, he has to move closer turn 1, you move 1 inch, and magic and archers the crossbow unit to oblivion. That's a 20 man crossbow unit, correct (it's not in the dark elf list). Save one of the missile spells for the shades in the building, and your second archer unit pings a few from the second shade unit. Basically clean up the chaffe and his ranged capability, and that ramps up the pressure on him to get into combat.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#531 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey baeron - my mistake, I've editied that unit into his list

The hill in the middle is low, so no LoS problems there, and the forest in the middle is soft cover.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#532 Post by GhostWarrior »

Hey Brewmaster. Really enjoying this Coven thing you have going here (along with your magic tactica and the 'trickle' strategy - pure gold!).
Brewmaster_D wrote:
Does anyone know offhand if you have to roll off to see who rolls for spells first? Most people just roll away, but I've noticed that I've been "countering" my opponent's spell selections with my own lately.

Regardless, I'm happy with the spells - Speed of Light was one of my top picks here, so it really made me more comfortable that I got it.

Regarding this question; I think if you look very carefully at how rolling for spells works (sorry, can't remember if its in the Magic phase section in the front or the Spells and Magic Items section in the back), you'll see something to the effect of 'before the wizard is deployed he must roll for spells'. So, technically speaking when rolling for spells, you can wait to roll until it is time to deploy your characters. Obviously most players want to know their spells before they start deploying everything, so they just roll right away. So, if faced wth an opponent who wants you to roll your spells first (like in a tourney situation), you can tell them you are going to wait until it is time to deploy your characters. Just be prepared for the same from him. :wink:

So, technically, the person who has to deploy their characters first has to roll for spells first, right before deploying their wizards (assuming both players are attempting to wait as long as possible).
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#533 Post by Curu Olannon »

Writing as I read:
- Deployment looks good. Archers anchor the West while Lions and Swords are directly across their favoured matchups. I'm a little surprised you only took 1x Shem's vs 2 Hydras, let's see how it plays out!

Oh lol, just realized you hadn't typed up more :D

Ok so T1: Fly Eagles behind your Archers: no use for them yet and no point in being Shade-food. Magic - focus on getting off Banishments and Shems. Nothing else is really worth it here. Good targets are Shades and Hydras, no reason to bother with the rest yet. The reason is simply because you have vastly superior ranged capabilities and you want to force his hand - which you do perfectly well by biding your time and blast him apart :)

As for spells - ETC plays is so that you roll right before you deploy, i.e. when there's only characters left.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#534 Post by dabber »

It's funny: those Hydras look a lot scarier in the deployment picture than when I thought of them on paper a few days ago.

I know you like Timewarp, and I see why, but I would have swapped Timewarp for another Burning Gaze, as I consider the Hydras the main threat.

My reaction is I do not like the central deployment. The hill and forest in the middle will give him considerable cover from your archers, which otherwise should be able to really hurt DE. The thing in front of your western archers also looks like a forest, providing more cover for him. With your range advantage, I would want as much long range shooting damage as possible. Roughly, I would rather swap the big archers and White Lions, and move the little archers to the east end. Maybe shift everything a little more east than that as well. Having the two archer units next to each other gives the Master too much space to land freely.
I probably would have made the same mistake, but I think you made a mistake not putting one of the elite infantry units on the deployment line opposite the building. It would be nice to charge his Shades out of there immediately.
Eagles might be a little too forward for my liking, but at least they are back from the line.


Shift Mages to the east, so you can put Burning Gaze on the Shades (or powered up into a Hydra). Move the Eagles into the center, hiding behind other units. Shoot crossbows or Shades, Net the enemy level 4, double Banish Hydras.
I hate to simplify, but I think the game is about how much magic damage you can do to the Hydras and the Master before they can kill some of your stuff. If you get 8+ wounds (counting the Ring of Corin as 3 wounds), which is basically half of those 3 models, I think you win.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/24

#535 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Blinded by the Light, Part II

High Elves, Turn 1

Image

In my head, there were two ways to approach this - focus on the chaff/ranged potential, or focus on the heavy hitters. Half measures in either, in my opinion, would prove disastrous, so I had to commit early. The archers were well situated to fire on his crossbowmen and much of his magic phase required his shooting in order to be effective in the first couple turns, so I opted to try to eliminate that first.

With that in mind, my movement was based around trying to stall the middle. I'm still getting a feel for the White Lions, but I do know the effect they have on people, so I opt to wheel them up and threaten the center.

The swordmasters move up as well to help cover the middle and force a choice - head for the coven and face two units of elites potentially in the flank? Or deal with the elites and face punishing magic all game.

You guys totally nailed it with the eagles - get out of harm's way, because I was positive they'd be crucial.

Magic is 6 & 1 - ugh, horrible first roll. Banner gives me 2 and the jewel 1 for a total of 10 v 6. I start with a 4D6 banishment on the Eastern Hydra on 4 dice and roll very high (Something like a 6,5,4,4). He dispels with all 6 of his dice. I follow this with my 3D6 timewarp on the White Lions - the dark elf troops definitely won't want a piece of them, but jury's still out how the Hydras will act. Finally, I throw 3D6 at a banishment on his shades in the building to clear them out.

Shooting goes on his crossbowmen (The thing in front of the archers is a swamp, and the hill is low) and scores 12 wounds, with him only managing 1 save. They pass their panic test.

Dark Elves, Turn 1

Image

The chaff moves up to surround, but the center moves up less aggressively. The hydras stay together and move up to the point where they can get a good flame shot next turn. No subtlety about the master - he heads directly for the coven.

Magic is off to a slow start for him as well - 4 & 1, and I manage a channel for a total of 4 v 6. He goes for a 4D6 +1 withering on my lions, but I manage to dispel it.

Shooting puts a couple wounds on my archers (I got lazy with the skulls :P), and he gives the witch elves the 5+ ward save.

High Elves, Turn 2

Image

My infantry blocks back off, and the Eagle moves up next to the building, being sure to leave just small enough of a gap that a hydra can't squeeze through, forcing them to charge the eagle or swing Westward.

Magic is 11 v 3 (3 & 3, High Elves channeled, 3 for banner and the jewel) - I lead off with a 3D6 banishment on the master and he dispels this - he knows that banishment has a good chance of killing the master anyway with only 2 wounds and rerolling wards, and should I kill him, it frees up my ring for the sacrificial dagger, effectively eliminating *both* of the "ringable" items. With his dice out of the way, I throw 2D6 at the ring of corin, then banish the master on 3D6 and timewarp the Lions again

Shooting rolls well, with my archers killing enough to force a panic test (I went a bit nuts on the casualties here - I think he had about 4 or 5 left at this point) which he fails on a reroll! The second unit of archers fire at the shades to the west, killing two and causing them to flee as well.

Dark Elves, Turn 2

Image

The harpies fly up to cover my infantry from charge attempts - jury's still out whether I made the right call focusing the shooting units as opposed to the redirectors! One hydra charges the eagle, and the other moves up to threaten a charge on the lions next turn regardless of whether they choose to deal with the harpies.

Magic is 3 & 2 with a Dark Elf Channel - 5 v 4

He starts with a 2D6 + 1 withering on the lions, which I allow; Doesn't make much of a difference with the hydra, and I need to keep my damage output high. Their T drops to 1. He then follows up with a 3D6 + 1 Enfeebling foe on the Lions, but I dispel it with 4

With his firing base eliminated, he puts the ward on the witch elves again and we move on to my turn

High Elves, Turn 3

Image

I issue charge on the redirectors to clear them out, and move my eagle up to redirect the Eastern Hydra one more time. This leaves me open to a charge opportunity from the Corsairs, but I'm confident in the lions' ability to handle them.

Magic rolls up 2 & 1 - I was really hoping for a strong phase this turn, but as well all know the winds are fickle, and even with all of my mechanisms I came up short. The banner delivers one dice, and the jewel another. 5 v 2.

3D6 Banishment on the Western Hydra is a pretty sure bet - it goes off, and he knows he has little chance to dispel it. 9 hits, 8 wounds and 5 make it through regen! Phew. I throw 2D6 at pha's on the lions, but he dispels it with 2.

With the firing base gone, the archers start in on the witch elves. -1 to hit, but close range keeps things honest; 8 wounds make it past the 5+ ward save.

Dark Elves, Turn 3

Image

Knowing his troops couldn't dawdle with all of the ranged firepower coming his way, he declares 3 charges - corsairs and witch elves into the lions (witch elves need a 10 to make it), and the hydra into the blocking eagle.

Magic rolls up 5 & 3 with both Dark Elves and High Elves getting a single channel. I know this is going to be a punishing phase, since I didn't have the dice to get rid of withering last turn. He starts with 3D6 +1 on a powered up miasma, which I view as the lesser of two evils. I allow it, and thankfully he only rolls 1 for the drop in WS and I. This is followed up with an enfeebling foe with 3D6 +1, which I dispel with 4 (he had a low roll). Finally, he throws 2D6 + 1 at Power of Darkness and rolls 6,5,3 (no doubt going for mindrazor to get rid of my armour). I throw my remaining 3 at it and get... 6, 4, 3! High Elf +1 to dispel for the win!

He puts the +1 attack on the corsairs, feeling confident after dropping my hit rolls from 3's with rerolls to a flat 4 to hit and we move to combat.

Needless to say, this is ugly. The lions manage 12 wounds on him, and his corsairs lay waste to 15 T1 lions. I lose combat, but the lions are stubborn and I use my gem of courage, which combined with Ld 10 might as well be unbreakable.

High Elves, Turn 4

Image

With only 6 shots remaining on his side in terms of missile weapons and no magic missiles, I feel confident running my mages out of their bunkers. The archmage and level 2 run East and get into position. The swordmasters charge the remaining hydra.

Magic is 3 & 2, but I score a double channel and 3 for the banner! Time to rock and roll! 11 v 3

I lead the way with a 4D6 pha's protection bubble from my level 2, which he dispels with 3D6. I then use my level 4 to cast the same spell on a 3D6, and follow it up with a 4D6 Speed of Light bubble.

Shooting is nasty - his cauldron buff was on the corsairs this turn, and the witch elves charged out of the forest, leaving me hitting on 3's this round. No witch elves survive the volley. The second unit of archers also manages a wound on the cauldron, which slips past the ward save.

In combat, my lions, with their rerolls restored, take out the remaining 9 corsairs. I just noticed I didn't reform them in battle chronicler - they rank up and turn to face the hydra.

The hydra is hitting on 6's and the swordmaster's banner strips it of its rerolls. However, they whiff their round of combat as well, only putting 2 wounds on the beast. Pha's protection eats its breath weapon, but its stomp does 6 hits, 5 wounds (missed a couple skulls here). This has me losing combat by 1, but they manage to hold.

Dark Elf, Turn 4

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The cauldron hag charges in on the flank of the swordmasters, and we move to magic

3 & 2, with a high elf channel; 4 v 5. He starts with a D6 + 1 miasma on the swordmasters, which I allow. My hope is to take down the hydra this turn (It's a long shot, I know), so I really need their strength more than anything. He follows up with a 3D6 + 1 Enfeebling foe on the swordmasters, and I fail to dispel with all 5 of my dice! Their strength gets reduced by 2, and I curse very loudly.

In combat, the weakened swordmasters actually manage a wound, but get destroyed for their efforts despite their buffs. The cauldron overruns to the East

High Elves, Turn 5

Image

I don't charge with the lions, confident that banishment can get the job done on the hydra. The archers reform to get some shots on the remaining targets.

Magic is 4 & 2, with 1 from the banner and the jewel

I start with 3D6 at banishment on the hydra, which he dispels with all 4. The second 3D6 banishment, however, goes off and finishes off the last two wounds on the beast.

At this point, he concedes the game. I fire my archers anyway, because he's a Dark Elf. The shades go down and I put another wound on the Cauldron.



I'll put up my thoughts on the game at lunch, but in the meantime, have at 'er! I'm still getting used to this style and I have a tournament in 2 days, so do your worst!

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

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Marwynn
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/26

#536 Post by Marwynn »

For what it's worth, I think you made the right call with eliminating his shooters.

It looks like, from the images at least, that your Archers were not very close to your edge. He didn't have the range or magic to really threaten you.

But nicely played. You played to your list's strengths and the Hydras were almost a non-issue. Sword Masters notwithstanding.
dabber
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/26

#537 Post by dabber »

If that hill in the middle is too low to interfere with LOS and does not provide partial cover, why even put it on the table? It appears to literally do nothing but potentially knock over models.

I disagree with his dispelling banishment on the master. Assume you roll well for banishment - 9 hits, 7.5 wounds. Then he gets a 5+ armour save (1+ modified by S7) to reduce that to 5 wounds. Then a 2+ ward he must re-roll, which he fails 11/36 times, reducing that to 1.5 wounds. He has 3 wounds (pegasus wounds used because of being character monsterous cavalry), so that really should not kill him. Most importantly, if he is afraid of banishment, there is really no point in dispelling the first one, because you'll just cast a second one. If he lets the first one go, and lives, then you have to decide to just throw the second one (which he can dispel) or to use the ring first (which he can dispel). Or you throw more dice at either of those, but then you attempt one fewer spell. By dispelling the first he makes Master Death nearly automatic - you Ring the Pendant and then Banish him again, as you did.

Wow, lucky Hydra Banishment! Dead Master and dead Hydra equals win.

If he was targetting the Lions with his hexes, I disagree about Miasma. Enfeebling is less important, because you start out with so much strength - 1 does nothing, -2 is bad but not awful, and only -3 really hurts. Even more so because Enfeebling you can get rid of in your turn, but Miasma you cannot. I did forgot about effectively canceling Miasma with Speed of Light, but dispelling Enfeebling is easier than casting bubble Speed of Light.
If he's going to use Power of Darkness, I think he should use it first on one (plus 1) dice.

I would not think Pha's Protection applies to an in-combat breath weapon. The spell only affects "shooting attacks" with the 4+ to shoot.

The Cauldron cannot charge - it's a war machine.
Brewmaster_D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/26

#538 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

@ Marwynn - I definitely think the choice to take his shooting down as fast as possible really effected the psychology of the game. It created the imperative that he had to move forward, which allowed me to namely get those witch elves in a bad spot.

@ dabber - It was really funny reading your replies after I posted the deployment - pretty much spot on with how the game went down.

The hill is my responsibility for being a terrible craftsman - one side of it is hill-ish, then it flops down to near board height on the other side. I suppose it could be represented better by just putting a smaller hill right beside the forest, then nothing beside it. I'll probably do that in future reports!

Regarding the banishment on the master - Reasoning here, as far as I can tell, is that had he let the banishment go off, one of two results could have happened. Odds are he was going to live through it (good catch on the wounds about the pegasus!), however there is still the risk that he doesn't, and it's not so farfetched that it's dismissable. With that in mind, if he lets it go, yes he'll probably live and take two wounds, but if he dies I now keep the ring for the dagger. In effect, the move forces me to use the ring on the master to be sure of getting rid of him, as I don't want to bank on one banishment taking him out either, and casting banishment but failing to kill him then using the ring gives him a shot at my coven next turn, and at the very least drawing all of my archer fire that turn. The method you mention is definitely more effective, but it has a higher chance of losing the Sacrificial Dagger too. I hope that makes sense - that's how I saw the situation at least.
Wow, lucky Hydra Banishment! Dead Master and dead Hydra equals win.
I was willing to settle for a few wounds on it, so this really came as a pleasant surprise!

I totally agree about power of darkness coming first - This really forces a tough choice on your opponent, particularly in lower magic phases.

Hm - I always assumed that a breath weapon was a shooting attack full stop. Has their been an FAQ or anything about this? One would assume that if it can be stopped in one situation it can be stopped in another since it's the same source for the attack - both are a breath weapon.

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
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dabber
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/26

#539 Post by dabber »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Hm - I always assumed that a breath weapon was a shooting attack full stop. Has their been an FAQ or anything about this? One would assume that if it can be stopped in one situation it can be stopped in another since it's the same source for the attack - both are a breath weapon.
I think the wording and headings on page 67 are clear that it changes from shooting to close combat attack.
"Breath Weapon Close Combat Attack", and the text under that includes "use the Breath Weapon to make an additional close combat attack".
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GhostWarrior
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/26

#540 Post by GhostWarrior »

Nice job taking out those DE's.

I'm on the fence about Banishment vs. Burning Gaze (upped version) on the Hydras (or HPA's for that matter). Personally, I hate letting my opponents take 4+ Regens. I know Banishment in your list is Higher Strength and an extra D6 hits, but if I have a spell that can ignore all their saves, I'm using it (personal preference here I think :D ). The thing about the 4+'s is that they always seem to be 'on' or 'off', as you saw in HE 3. Your opponent could have just as easily passed most all of those regens.

I noticed some rules things for ya regarding the cauldron:

Turn 4 - The cauldron cannot charge the Swordmasters, as it is a Warmachine, and Warmachines generally cannot charge.
-By the same reasoning, it could not have overrun (or pursued should that have applied).
-It doesn't look like your opponent ever marched the Cauldron (turn 2 maybe?), so thats good. :)
-The Cauldron can be moved using Steed of Shadows since it is a character (though only 10"), be weary of that trick if you think you have it trapped with your opponents turn coming up.

Loving the batreps though. I am definitely trying out the Coven once I get back to my HE's.
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