Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - 05/12 Battle Report

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SpellArcher
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#481 Post by SpellArcher »

I really like the economy of the first list Brewmaster but fear you'll miss the Dragonhorn.

Is there any way to squeeze this.in and test the list?
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#482 Post by Jhaantikaal »

Great blog, brewmaster. Very insightful.
A question if I may? How do you feel a cap of 2 additional power dice from any source would affect your list/games??? It's a common thing in tournaments in the UK to have such a cap.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#483 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

@theviking - Interestingly grut's sickle has crossed my mind as well. However, I find the utility of the lore of the maw really limits its usefulness by being a close combat centric lore; typically I find that it gets used during 1 or 2 key turns, and the rest I'm happy to let cast as it effects the game very little. This marginalizes the utility of the item somewhat.

@Odin - Wow, incredible results! Well done!

Any chance I can goad you into posting the Coven list you fielded, as well as the points limit? I'm very interested.

I think I would have paid money to see the look on the Chaos Dwarf's player when his K'daii Destroyer went up in smoke. You can be sure that this isn't a regular occurence for them :P

Tough luck on the ogres; traditionally this is something I've struggled with as well. With all of those mage killing snipes, I'd have been inclined to just turn my coven bunker around and focus on buffs/hexes for the game. That's just a dirty setup.

Regardless, second place is a fantastic result!

@Curu & Caradryal - Two votes for list B). I'm inclined to agree with you guys, that the reliability is paramount. Having said that, every time I get a phase where the banner comes up 1 and I fail to channel, or my spell selection is sub par, I curse myself for not taking that last mage.

@ SpellArcher - Given the two votes above, and your own vote which kind of lands halfway, I think that I'm going to give list B a go, and see how I do. I'll try to line up a match in the next couple of days at 2200, then we'll see how it performs.

@Jhaaantikaal - If there is a cap on the power dice (I'm assuming you mean a max of 10 per phase?), then my arcane selection would definitely be as follows: Archmage w/ Book of Ashur (+1 to cast & dispel), Level 2 w/ Seerstaff, Level 1 w/ Crystal, Level 1 w/ Ring

It's already an *extremely* close decision for me, and with that further restriction, the +1 to cast would effectively give you the same effect by letting you reliably cast with fewer dice, in addition to giving you a staggering +6 to dispel.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#484 Post by Curu Olannon »

What you're looking to achieve with this list is not a 12 PD phase, necessarily. What you want to achieve is extreme flexibility - meaning that any cast can reliably go through. I would say that your optimal magic phases are winds roll that give you 2 or more dice than your opponent has DD and his DD doesn't exceed 4 (so that a cast of 5-6 goes through with a high degree of reliability). The ideal phases as such are:
2+2, 3+3, 4+4,
3+2, 4+2

Now, what's interesting is all the cases where the Banner of Sorcery and/or channels creates this advantage whereas it otherwise does not exist. Mostly, this concerns rolls with a '1' and a high number (5-6). As such, your 'disastrous' winds rolls are as follows:
5+1, 6+1 and arguably 6+2 (though this always yields 9+ PD, facing 6DD is never optimal).

I would argue that any other result is in the middle, meaning that you don't particularly need that extra dice offered by a 4th mage. As such, I think that the value provided by another PD is at its best when you roll the worst winds. Assuming that they are 5+1, 6+1 and 6+2, we're looking at a reasonably low % of the total winds rolled. Compared to the added reliability offered by list B, I find this to be relatively insignificant, though I have no doubt that it'll be sorely missed in those situations. The key is to minimize this 'weakness' by adjusting casting strategies and overall tactics.

Naturally this evaluation is based on a few assumptions. While these hold true, I believe it is pretty accurate. However if these assumptions prove to be wrong, one needs to re-check the cases where that 4th mage is vital and evaluate from there :)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#485 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Curu!

Thanks for crunching those numbers for me - this is something that's been kind of a "gut" instinct, but it's nice to see it laid out like this.

So my 2200 point saga continues - I'm still not 100% with either of my setups, but Odin's post did send me down an interesting though path. So purely as a thought experiment, tell me what you guys think:

Archmage, Level 4, Jewel of the Dusk
Mage, Seerstaff, Level 2 (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Dragonhorn
Mage, Anullian Crystal

30 x Archers, Standard, Musician, Banner of Discipline
15 x Archers

30 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
14 x Swordmasters, Champion, Standard, Standard of Balance, Skeinsliver

2 x Great Eagles

Combine the units to reduce their vulnerability to panic and reduce the amount spent on psychology mitigating tools. Introduce a White Lion horde and swap the spears out for a horde of archers.

Basically treat it like a gunline capable of incinerating high points models. Anything that makes it to me gets to face a white lion horde with light buffs (the thought of 4 white lion attacks per model of frontage, or a horde of lions at -2 to hit is pretty silly to think about...).

I have a game lined up at 2200 points tonight - I might give this list a whirl and see how it goes. What do you guys think? It's definitely a departure, but I just haven't been able to replicate my success at 2500 in the 2200 bracket, so maybe it's time to re-invent the wheel so to speak.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#486 Post by SpellArcher »

I think as you've already played three mages at 2200 Brewmaster you have some idea how that build works.

It may be that the 4-mage draft with four elite units is too lightweight or that the new draft is too inflexible. But until you've tested it you won't know for sure.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#487 Post by Curu Olannon »

I like it, I like it a lot! While Lore of Light is definitely good with an msu/mmu -ish approach, I can definitely see it working with bigger blocks as well. As you pointed out, not having so many units reduces the impact of your BSB being gone. I still think that the bubbles can be threatening, although not necessarily as impacting as they were when you have a lot of units being affected.

I also note that our infantry setups are close to identical now: 45 Archers split up 30 + 15, a horde of Lions and 14 Swordmasters. Perhaps, given that you don't run with Shadow, this is one of our stronger builds? I believe my upcoming tournament reports will show you just how flexible this can really be, as I had a couple of games in which I really managed to use the Archers in combination with the other units to achieve the support I feel that they need to be able to provide.

Anyways, will be interesting to see this in action and hear your thoughts about it :) I believe the swap to all-Archer core is also a boost since you discovered that you'd rather play this list as a shadow-boxing one (i.e. advance some, keep a threat arc, back off, keep shooting and magic stuff while the combat blocks keep the threats up).
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#488 Post by Caradryal »

I think it'll work mate and it's nice that you've managed to squeeze all your favourite items in. The only thing that concerns me is the use of he larger archer unit for your coven. This effectively leaves you with no method of breaking steadfast. I'd be tempted to use the smaller unit of archers for your coven and move them too the larger one if/when the bunkers numbers start dwindling. Of course you may have had this in mind already and just be putting the archmage in the larger unit :D

I look forward to the bat rep on this one!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#489 Post by Curu Olannon »

Caradryel, when you talk about breaking steadfast, what units are a problem exactly? I've played with this setup for months now and I'm still having problems seeing all this 'steadfast' that people complain about. To me, it appears to be an internet phenomena that steadfast is the god of warhammer and needs to be countered. The lions, at 30 strong, will often possess 2 ranks and sometimes 3 - not many units exceed this! Of course, you have Skavenslaves etc but for this there's the option of reforming your Archers to 5x6 and gain lots of ranks.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#490 Post by Caradryal »

Curu Olannon wrote:Caradryel, when you talk about breaking steadfast, what units are a problem exactly? I've played with this setup for months now and I'm still having problems seeing all this 'steadfast' that people complain about. To me, it appears to be an internet phenomena that steadfast is the god of warhammer and needs to be countered. The lions, at 30 strong, will often possess 2 ranks and sometimes 3 - not many units exceed this! Of course, you have Skavenslaves etc but for this there's the option of reforming your Archers to 5x6 and gain lots of ranks.
Yes this is what I was thinking curu with the archers only if they contain the coven you will have to anticipate charging/being charged the turn before and move them out. I was just intrigued as to whether the coven need to be in the large unit at all of if the standard could be on the smaller unit. Of course the banner on the large one helps it's use as an anvil.

The units that I was talking about that can be a pain with steadfast are the slaves you mentioned and other cheap units like men at arms or goblins.

In this case I think your right tho a unit of timewarped swordmasters or lions shouldn't take long to break the back of most steadfast units.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#491 Post by Curu Olannon »

Indeed losing multiple units can hurt the flexibility of 4 mages. Against a lot of armies though you can easily move out of your units during the mid/late stages of the game.

As for 'weak crap' like Slaves, Goblins etc: they just die so fast to Lions and/or Swords it's hardly ever a problem. To break steadfast you have to occupy A LOT of kill-space (remember models in combat must be equalized), thus it's almost counter-productive unless you can get a flank charge off. I think you'll find rather quickly that once you stop playing 'the steadfast game' you'll realize we hardly ever need it to the degree where our core has to perform it.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#492 Post by Caradryal »

Curu Olannon wrote:Indeed losing multiple units can hurt the flexibility of 4 mages. Against a lot of armies though you can easily move out of your units during the mid/late stages of the game.

As for 'weak crap' like Slaves, Goblins etc: they just die so fast to Lions and/or Swords it's hardly ever a problem. To break steadfast you have to occupy A LOT of kill-space (remember models in combat must be equalized), thus it's almost counter-productive unless you can get a flank charge off. I think you'll find rather quickly that once you stop playing 'the steadfast game' you'll realize we hardly ever need it to the degree where our core has to perform it.
All very good points mate and I can see how it is less of an issue with that lion horde out there. No one wants to fight them and if they do they have very little chance of breaking a lion horde.

My spears have proved useful for providing combat res through ranks in the past and as a solid anvil to assist with combo charges.

The removal of kill-space is indeed a good point and one i have not always considered in the past, I will put that down to my lack of experience :oops: however I am learning every time I play
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#493 Post by Curu Olannon »

As are we all! As for combo-charging, this is easier with a single model (e.g. chariot, dragon) than a unit as killspace isn't wasted. This is why I originally ran 2x30-something Spears with the Star Dragon but I quickly realized that this was sub-optimal. It really isn't that easy to pull off a flank-charge, thus negating steadfast without taking up killspace. In other situations, you have to consider if the static combat resolution outweighs their inherent weakness (e.g. when charging in with a dragon you get +4 from 3 ranks and a banner, but if 5+ spears die this is an overall poor trade) or if the static resolution is vastly inferior to the kill-based resolution offered by more kill-space.

I would advice every HE player to try playing without Spears for a time and see how well we can do with just Archers. If nothing else, it should teach you something about the viability of our elites on their own and the power of all-Archer core. If you don't like it, simply switch back! However, Archers can just as well form up as steadfast breakers when needed ;)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#494 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Some great discussion here about "the myth of steadfast". It's funny - I was one of the loudest crying out for you to switch to all archer core, Curu, yet it takes me until now to analyze my own army under the same lens. I think this really shows how easy it is to get "stuck" in one mode of thinking.

So I managed to get a test game in with this list - I'm going to start in on the report now, but I probably won't get it done until tomorrow. Some teasers for you guys:

- The skeinsliver does matter!
- Timewarped hordes of White Lions makes for very timid opponents
- What happens when a timewarped horde of White Lions clashes with a timewarped temple guard unit?

All this and more, so stay tuned!

I was doing my best 50's era announcer voice by the way. Hope that came through.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#495 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I re-read your post again with the announcer voice ^_^
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#496 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Let there be Light

I got my first test game in with my recently concocted 2200 point list. It sure felt smaller putting it down on the board, with so few drops. However, I had confidence (in the liquid form), so there was no turning back. For those who missed it:

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Jewel of the Dusk, Lore of Light
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Dragonhorn, Lore of Light
Mage, Anullian Crystal, Lore of Light

30 x Archers, Standard, Musician, Banner of Discipline
15 x Archers

30 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Champion, Standard of Balance, Skeinsliver

2 x Great Eagles

And of course, my opponent's list:

Slann, Focused Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Cupped hands of the Old Ones, Statuette of Spite, Loremaster Light
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll, Engine of the Gods

25 x Saurus, Command, Spears
20 x Saurus, Command, HW+S
10 x Skink Skirmishers
10 x Skink Skirmishers

24 x Temple Guard, Full Command
2 x Salamanders
1 x Salamander

Spells were as follows:

Slann - All light spells
Skink Priest - Iceshard Blizzard

Archmage - Speed of light, Timewarp, Banishment, Pha's
Ring Mage - Light of Battle
Crystal Mage - Net of Amyntok

Deployment

Image

I definitely got the upper hand here - Dropped the swordmasters early, and he dropped the HW+S Saurus a bit too far West. Banishment kept the salamanders honest too, with him opting for a wide sweeping maneuver to try to at least force the coven to change their facing away from the incoming blocks.

I get the +1 to go first, as well as the +1 for the skeinsliver. I promptly roll a 1, and he rolls... a two! I take first turn

High Elves, Turn 1

Image

Not much movement here - I move the lions up enough to enact my magic phase plan. I know I own the ranged game, so there's no point in surrendering more distance than I have to

Winds are 5 & 4, with a channel on his behalf and me hitting the max. 12 v 6.

I lead off with a 4D6 banishment on his unit of two salamanders. He scrolls this (he's got experience against the coven at this point, so he knows the destructive capabilities). Second attempt is a second banishment with 4D6 from my level 2 - he dispels this one with his dice. My final 4D6 goes at a timewarp on the White Lions, which I promptly miscast. The wizard fails to wound himself, but does manage to take down 4 archers.

Shooting doesn't have too many targets, so takes a full round on the Saurus, producing a mere two wounds due to moving up into range.

Lizardmen, Turn 1

Image

Odin talked in his post about the "presence" that a horde of White Lions has on the battlefield - ladies and gentlemen, here it is :P With movement 10 next turn, his Slann is even nervous moving up into becalming range of my archmage.

Magic rolls 4 & 3, with a channel on both sides. 7 v 5. He begins with 4D6 + 1 at a banishment on my Swordmasters - I dispel this with all 5 of mine, since I'm not particularly concerned with much else. Net is the next biggest threat, but it will only have a 50% effectiveness rate, and I have one banisher outside of the unit. Instead, the throws 2D6 at his statuette of spite - I need to take a toughness test with my archmage or suffer a wound. If I take a wound, I need to take another one, and so on until I make a save. Yikes! Luckily he passes his first test, saving his skin.

He uses his last D6 +1 to cast a powered up Pha's protection, successfully.

High Elves, Turn 2

Image

I reform the troops to face the approach arcs of the salamanders and reduce their impact should they get their shots off. My eagle charges into the flank of the skinks (I think he forgot the eagle was behind the house, as it was blocked from view). The combat also serves as an obstacle in his next turn, as the skinks are stubborn in the woods and are unlikely to break. My hope is that this forces the salamanders to move around too far north to get a good shot.

Magic is boxcars; not necessarily great for me, as I've invested so much into getting more power dice. I start with a 4D6 banishment on the stegadon... and miscast again. The ensuing banishment does 9 hits, killing the skink priest and doing 4 wounds to the stegadon. My miscast result is the same, and it wounds the archmage this time. 4 Archers die, and the rest of my dice are drained.

All shots go at the approaching skinks - all but two of them die after an uninspiring round of shooting. However, they do panic.

In combat both parties fail to wound and he holds.

Lizardmen, Turn 2

Image

With a Skink barricade in the way, he charges in with both the saurus and salamanders. The rest of his troops, now free of the tyranny of timewarped White Lions, move up more aggressively.

Magic is 4 & 4 with no channels; 7 v 5. He goes big right out of the gate with 5D6+1 at a timewarp powered up, but fails the cast roll.

The eagle, surprisingly, doesn't die from the onslaught. It does, however, break, and the skinks fail to catch it. His other troops hold back, mindful of the swordmasters.

High Elves, Turn 3

Image

I readjust the lions to face the incoming threat, but otherwise continue the barrage. I move my archmage just outside of the Slann's becalming range.

Magic rolls up 3 & 1 - I get two channels, however, and 2 dice from the banner - I guess my mages had some power left over from all of those miscasts lol. 8 v 3. I lead off with a 4D6 banishment on his salamanders, which he tries to dispel with his 3 dice (I rolled low). He misses the dispel, however, and banishment rolls huge with 11 hits. The salamanders get vaporized. With all of his dice gone, I put another timewarp on the lions with 3D6, and use a final D6 to put pha's on the swordmasters, should the remaining salamander decide to try anything funny.

Shooting - I decided to not move the large unit due to the skinks being in cover this turn, and having the 5+ protection from the engine. Instead I fire all shots into the saurus, but manage only 2 more wounds.

Lizardmen, Turn 3

Image

He decides to try something funny with the salamander. It moves into position to fire on the swordmasters, and the saurus to the north move into counter-charge range.

Once again, the timewarped White Lions dissuade any strong advancement on his part. His skinks move maximum distance to try to redirect the lions and at least allow the combat to happen on his turn, when he has a full magic phase to support his troops.

Magic is 8 v 8 - He starts with a 2D6 Net of amyntok, which I dispel with 3. I can't have my magic phase shut down next turn. He gets a D6+1 shem's off on my swordmasters, but only manages one casualty. He powers up a pha's protection with 2D6+1, but to his dismay, fails to meet the casting value.

The salamander gets "blinded by the light" (go ahead and sing that song in your head), and can't fire on the swordmasters. The skinks shots on the lions manages to take one out.

High Elves, Turn 4

Image

My lions have enough room to make the wheel into the saurus, but not the temple guard, so they declare their charge. The swordmasters charge the salamander, and we move on to magic

10 v 5 - I had to wheel my archers to get line of sight to the stegadon, but in doing so I forgot about becalming cogitation - whoopsie. I start with a 2D6 Pha's, which he dispels with 2. I follow up with a second Pha's (both on the lions) on 2D6, but that gets dispelled with 2 as well. I throw 4D6 at timewarp on the white lions, which despite losing one to becalming sill goes off, and cannot be dispelled. Finally, I try a speed of light on the same unit, but I lose one 6 and the spell fails.

Archers put all of their shots in to the skinks, and kill all but two of them.

In combat, the swordmasters rip through the lone salamander. The Saurus warriors don't fare much better. The combined might of 40 ASF S6 attacks runs the unit through, killing it to a man. The lions reform to face the temple guard

Lizardmen, Turn 4

Image

His remaining skinks move up to block off my white lions, and the saurus make their counter-charge against my swordmasters.

Magic is 7 v 8 - He starts with a 3D6 +1 Net on my Archmage's unit, which I stop with 4D6 of my own. He then does 2D6 +1 pha's on his saurus, and a 3D6+1 Timewarp on his Temple Guard, which I fail to dispel.

In combat, the Swordmasters kill 9 of his saurus despite the -1 to hit, and he only manages to kill 3 in return. However, his unit is still steadfast, so it holds.

High Elves, Turn 5

Image

The white lions charge the skinks to get rid of the nuisance.

Magic rolls up 1 & 2, however a good string of rolls has the total at 8 v 2. I start off with a 4D6 timewarp on the lions, which doesn't get becalmed, so goes off. I roll 3D6 at pha's protection on the same unit... but you guessed it, 6,6,1. The sixes get discarded, and the 1 is a fail.

My archers, however, fire a volley into the stegadon, and lo and behold one of the arrows makes it through the tough hide and fells the beast!

In combat, the swordmasters take down all but 4 of the saurus, and run them down.

Lizardmen, Turn 5

Image

Things finally come to a head, with the Temple Guard charging the lions.

Magic is 9 v 8 - He knows he needs to get rid of my ASF rerolls, and has two possibilities to do so. He starts with a 4D6+1 timewarp, which after careful consideration, I let him have. I then dispel his 5D6+1 attempt at speed of light. Maybe not the best choice, in retrospect, because I didn't factor in that he didn't suffer my casualties first with timewarp up, which would have dropped his casualties significantly.

Regardless, combat goes in my favour - 17 wounds vs. 14 on his behalf.

At this point he concedes the game, as the white lions outpower him, and we're going in to a full turn of coven buffs

After Battle Thoughts

- I definitely experimented much further with the timewarped White Lions this game. Now that they are a horde, it might as well be a net of amyntok on every unit in front of them. Can't wait to try this one on ogres!
- This was one of my first matches versus somebody who has had the opportunity to play the coven before. You can definitely tell there's a bit of banishment fever going on. The salamander scurrying off to try to stay out of the firing arc is an example.
- This match was more of a "beer and warhammer" type of match, and less about being ultra competitive. I really just wanted to get a sense of how the new style played.

So there you have it - what do you guys think? Better or worse than the old one? I realize my opponent made some glaring mistakes (we talked about them after the match), so try to extrapolate how this would perform versus various ultra-competitive lists.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#497 Post by dabber »

Typing as I read ...

Glad to see you try all-archer finally.

I predict you blow the skink off the engine pretty quickly. Banishment can take him.
I don't like his Saurus units. They aren't big enough in my opinion.
Nice job on deployment. He doesn't have enough skinks to really contest area, and he clearly isn't accustomed to keeping his Saurus tight together.


Turn 1:
Good on his part using his scroll early, before you target the engine and kill the scroll.
Your reports are making me respect Timewarp a lot more. I wish I had time to play, just so I could experimenet with Timewarping powerful units.
2 dead Saurus sounds like an aerage shooting phase to me! Doing the math, it is about average!! :)

Statuette of Spite is another example of why I like having a ward save on an Archmage. With a 4+ ward, its odds of doing more than one wound are trivial. I'm curious what his experience with the item is - does it really accomplish anything?

Turn 2:
As I expected, Engine gone fast. One wound Stegadon can hurt with impact hits, but it will die in combat before doing any more damage, so I think you ignore it now. Or maybe shoot it with archers.
4 casts of 4d6 and 2 miscasts. Your dice are "hot".
Eagle could not kill a single skink? Ouch. Your non-casting dice need to borrow some 6s from the casting dice.

AoE Timewarp to start the phase? Really? I don't get that. With the White Lion horde untouched, he doesn't really want to get in combat with you instantly. Sure extra move on the Salamanders would help, but Net, Pha's, banishment, or single target Timewarp are all useful as well. To me, his extra dice mean he needs to cast lots of spells, and going for the big one, especially to start a phase, is poor. At minimum he should have used his other 2+1 dice for something else first.
Why would he not pursue the Eagle with everything, or at least with the Saurus? The skinks would still be in front, so your Swordmasters would spend your turn killing skinks, and then he would get a chance to Light buff the Saurus before that fight happens. He needs to get closer to you, especially with those Saurus.

Turn 3:
I think I would have done Burning Gaze with the final dice, to plink a few skinks or a Saurus, but it is pretty insignificant.
Are you big archers suffering cover modifiers from your own White Lions being in front of them? Why not? Is the hill bigger than the diagram, and thus they are shooting over? You mention the 5+ from the Engine here, but the Engine is gone.
Guess you were right about Pha's though - it stopped the shot.

I agree with him starting wtih Net - perfect spell against Elves. I like Burning Gaze next as well, as it should do a bit more than 1 casualty. 3d6 for his Pha's is 84% chance of success, but adding another dice makes it 97%. With his remaining dice, using the extra one seems appropriate to me, and then he finishes up with Speed of Light. Essentially you still had enough dispel dice that little casts were not going to get far. With 5 remaining dice, you basically stop one spell, no matter what he casts, so he has to be sure to get up the second spell.

Turn 4:
Ouch, you can get into unbuffed Saurus. There won't be many Lizards left. Was there any chance of his fleeing and escaping?

Your first mistake of the game, forgetting about Becalming. Bad Brewmaster! :)


I'm a little surprised by your stopping the Net this time. If you get zero magic next turn, does it hurt decisively? Unbuffed White Lion horde against 24 unbuffed Temple Guard is a massive win for you. Swordmasters vs Saurus combat is also in your favor, although you are going to get hurt. What you need now is to prevent his troops fighting way above their natural capabilities.

Your Swordmasters rolled well though, so the Pha's didn't matter.

Turn 5:
Still in Becalming range? Couldn't you run to the little archers at this point and get out of range, while still being in range of the White Lions? Although I'm not sure getting Becalmed was bad here, as by the time you miscast 3 times in a game, something really bad should be happening.
I'm not sure about Timewarping the Lions. My intuition says Speed of Light and Pha's are more important. I may have to math-hammer that later.
Ha! I called the archers finishing the Stegadon.

Your Swordmasters rolled well twice. Pha's should reduce their damage to about 6 dead Saurus a round by my math.

Your retrospective thoughts on his Timewarp are why I intuitively dislike your Timewarp. With you already going first, and in horde, the Ws 10 and -1 to hit seem more important than +10 attacks.





Coven Banishment really changes the Stegadon and Salamander situation. Normally those are hellish threats to an HE army, but you can kill them much easier than most HE armies.
Olannon's many reports have shown the White Lion horde to be hugely powerful, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the impact of them Timewarp'd in more reports. The all-archer core should also help you keep chaff out of their way, letting Banishment continue to hit the big stuff.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#498 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I haven't visited your blog for a little while and here we go ... completely different list! I need to check previous posts to see what led you to quite dramatic change (apart from scaling down the army to 2200 points). This new army is very compact and very defensive in my opinion. You have means to force the enemy towards you but at the same time they fear WL horde, especially when it is Timewarped. So I guess in this game it basically forced bad decisions on your opponent part because it seemed he tried to choose lesser evil rather than come up with some solution to the problem itself. The fact that the battlefiled was fairly open didn't help him either while for you it was just a matter of choosing the target.

The magic phase as always seems to be very reliable and you get spells you want to get through anyway. With much increased protection at the expense of number of units and speed, it was very difficult to breach the defences and get to the coven of light. It also seems to me that with that army your favorite approach will be creating kind of castle formation and waiting for the opponent to come to you.

If that is the case then I would miss the more intricate and sophisticated movement phase you have had so far but I understand the power and utility new list gives you.

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#499 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Guys!

Thanks, as always, for the comments and feedback.

@ Dabber

Wow - your predictions are uncannily accurate. Were you hiding in the corner or something? :P

Regarding the Statuette of Spite - it was actually the first time he's tried fielding the item (I told him all comer's list, but I think this one may have been planned a bit :P). There's enough casters out there that are T4, though, that I just don't see the value. In addition to that, ward saves make the damage potential even more trivial. So I agree with you here. I'm also sure I'll regret dropping the ward the day I face a greedy fist ogre list, however I'm unsure about where I'd get the 45 points. I didn't use the Dragonhorn here, so maybe I could get 25 there, then save the cost of the swordmaster champ as well. At that point I'm close. Hmm... Thanks for bringing this up!

Lizardmen Turn 2 - You're spot on with your analysis of his playing, and he realized it after as well. His key mistakes were definitely in this turn, with the fluffed magic phase (I referred him to my "Magic Phase Strategy" thread and pointed out how the light slann could potentially have one of the best trickle magic phases in the game). Not pursuing was also a mistake, however the swordmasters have quite the reputation as well, so I think he was worried about big rolls, then the swordmasters plowing down his battle line.

High Elves Turn 3 - Yeah, the hill is bigger. They're homemade ones, so they're tough to represent in battle chronicler. No cover from the lions; I'd have adjusted my deployment if the lions were going to interfere with the shooting.

High Elves Turn 4 - I typically don't field a horde of white lions, and my group isn't as active online as me, so I don't think he really knew what that meant. Doubt I'll get an opportunity like that again :P

Regarding Becalming - :oops:

Lizardmen Turn 4 - I wasn't too worried about Pha's on the saurus, and he was out of range of timewarp, so my priorities were speed of light and net. I wasn't intending to charge his bunker in the next turn with those redirectors.

High Elf Turn 5 - If you run the math on that, I'd be highly interested in seeing it!

Regarding Becalming - :oops:

Regarding Timewarp on the lions in my final round - agree here and lesson learned. There's a hidden benefit here too - Speed of light cancels out the worst effect of his own Speed of light - I keep my rerolls as both would be I10. This gives him only one option to remove them (Timewarp), which allows me to focus all of my dispelling efforts on that. Lesson learned.

The interesting thing about the horde is that with only one unit to buff, I reduce my dependency on the high casting value area spells. For example, at 6+ to cast, Pha's protection is IMMENSELY powerful for its cost on a unit like that.

@ Swordmaster

Yeah, I'll miss the intricate movement too, but the more I play this list, the more I realize that the more turns I have to banish targets, the better off I am. I've invested so many points in the coven that I really need them to fill their primary function - removing all the expensive wounds off the board.

It really has turned into a castle style of play, which is a relatively unexplored niche in our army. The other two lists that fall into a similar vein in my mind are Furion's and the list that focuses on archers, spears and RBT + a book of hoeth shadow caster/Teclis.

The interesting thing about the coven in a Castling Gunline type list is that in a counter battery war, I'm not too poorly matched - Unlike cannons vs. artillery, you can't really shoot the coven. 1/6 chance of a look-out sir, and if I fit that ward in, there's something minute like a 4% chance any cannonball can kill my archmage. I'm (for once) actually interested in trying this current setup versus a gunline. Nets, banishments and pha's blasting away, and a horde of White Lions rocketing across the field 20", which is incidentally 1" close enough to units deployed at the 12" line to prevent stand and shoot. 45 archer shots with a 30" range are also great for taking out close range artillery like the hellblaster and organ gun.


So I've got another game at 2500 points tonight; random opponent. I'm likely going to try to switch that list around a bit to feature more archers and a horde of white lions as well. Then, this weekend, I'm going to go up against a Dark Elf list at 2200 points. It's a pretty rotten list:

Sorceress, Sacrifical Dagger, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Master, Pegasus, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Pendant, Great Sword.
Death Hag, BSB, Cauldron of Blood

25 x Warriors, Champion
21 x Corsairs, AHW, Full Command, Frenzy Banner thing
5 x Harpies
5 x Harpies

21 x Witch Elves, Full Command, Dark Elf Armour Piercing banner of Cheapness
5 x Shades
5 x Shades

Hydra
Hydra


Yikes.

D
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#500 Post by dabber »

Is that DE list really so scary for yours? Your archers have lots to shoot, you have Ring of Corin for the Pendant, Standard of Balance to knock out his re-rolls, and Shadow Magic is not *that* big a problem for you. Assuming you get the first turn, which you should, I think it comes down to not miscasting early, and managing to get the Ring of Corin off before the Master takes out your Coven.

The Hydras are the big big killing power, and Banishment doesn't really work against them. The average 2 wounds is probably worth casting just to weaken a breath weapon, but I'm tempted to say you should be targetting the Cauldron first.



Running numbers on White Lions vs Temple Guard under Light buffs. Assuming 6 wide TG, which gets 9 WL in base contact. Ignoring champions, so nominally 27 attacks vs 16 attacks (Slann removes 2 TG back rank attacks). I am also ignoring the ability to remove TG attacks by attacking first, although that will have a small impact in some cases.

While hard to produce, I believe this is the mathhammer:

Code: Select all

____________________________WL______TG___*____WL on TG____*____TG on WL____*_WL victory
__________________________Atk_WS__Atk_WS_*__Hits__Result__*__Hits__Result
WL___________TG___________27__5___16__4__*__24.00__20.00__*___8.00__6.67___*__13.33
WL___________TG_Speed_____27__5___16__10_*__13.50__11.25__*__10.67__8.89___*___2.36
WL___________TG_Phas______27__5___16__4__*__20.25__16.88__*___8.00__6.67___*__10.21
WL___________TG_Timewarp__27__5___22__4__*__18.00__15.00__*__11.00__9.17___*___5.83

WL_Speed_____TG___________27__10__16__4__*__24.00__20.00__*__5.33__4.44____*__15.56
WL_Speed_____TG_Speed_____27__10__16__10_*__20.25__16.88__*__8.00__6.67____*__10.21
WL_Speed_____TG_Phas______27__10__16__4__*__20.25__16.88__*__5.33__4.44____*__12.43
WL_Speed_____TG_Timewarp__27__10__22__4__*__18.00__15.00__*__7.33__6.11____*___8.89

WL_Phas______TG___________27__5___16__4__*__24.00__20.00__*__5.33__4.44____*__15.56
WL_Phas______TG_Speed_____27__5___16__10_*__13.50__11.25__*__8.00__6.67____*___4.58
WL_Phas______TG_Phas______27__5___16__5__*__15.00__12.50__*__5.33__4.44____*___8.06
WL_Phas______TG_Timewarp__27__5___22__4__*__18.00__15.00__*__7.33__6.11____*___8.89

WL_Timewarp__TG___________36__5___16__4__*__32.00__26.67__*__8.00__6.67____*__20.00
WL_Timewarp__TG_Speed_____36__5___16__10_*__18.00__15.00__*_10.67__8.89____*___6.11
WL_Timewarp__TG_Phas______36__5___16__4__*__27.00__22.50__*__8.00__6.67____*__15.83
WL_Timewarp__TG_Timewarp__36__5___22__4__*__24.00__20.00__*_11.00__9.17____*__10.83
(I have saved the more complete spreadsheet, with many more columns, but putting in charts is a pain, so this is the chopped down main numbers. If you think I messed up, please give step-by-step details).

Conclusions:
If the TG get Timewarp, the best choice for combat winning margin is to Timewarp the White Lions. Effectively a bloodbath on both sides - 20 dead TG, 9+ dead WL. But if the TG get Speed of Light, the absolute best counter is to also give the White Lions Speed of Light. And Speed of Light WL is pretty good against Timewarp TG too. The only way the fight gets close is with unbuffed White Lions against Speed of Light Temple Guard.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#501 Post by Curu Olannon »

That's more like it! Shadow-punching can be done so well with Timewarp, T1 Lizzies just shows it so well.

There's not a lot to comment on here the way I see it. I should mention though that you should probably take care to use those Archers as more than a firing base when it's called for. It's very easy to end up always playing them in a very static manner. Also, with Net being a threat I would consider moving a mage to the Swordmasters early on.

When you got your T4 charges through, it was pretty much over in my opinion. He had sort of a soft list and when he additionally lets you approach him like this there isn't anything he can do to stop you: essentially both flanks are gone and your elites are intact.

A really nice start for the new coven :)

As for the DE list, it doesn't look too bad actually. If you can remove that Pendant it should all be over. Consider setting up Shem's + Banishment on Hydras and also remember that even though the Pendant is strong, Banishment forces re-rolls.

Looking forward to the next game!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#502 Post by Baeronvonbleat »

Also - As you only have White Lions and Swordmasters, you don't have re-rolls against the witch elves. Init 10 can come in handy here. Or just blast em off the table before they get to you.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#503 Post by Curu Olannon »

I'm thinking that those Archers are tailor-made for the Witch Elves: line them up across and shoot them. Magic the rest ;)
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#504 Post by Jimmy »

As per usual Brewmaster, thanks for the report. Great read and a great win.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#505 Post by Seredain »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Some great discussion here about "the myth of steadfast". It's funny - I was one of the loudest crying out for you to switch to all archer core, Curu, yet it takes me until now to analyze my own army under the same lens. I think this really shows how easy it is to get "stuck" in one mode of thinking.
I think the similarities that both your and Curu's list have is that they're packing relatively few units (reducing the deployment problems caused by wide-frontaged archer hordes), while also including uber-weapons which can magically melt steadfast units very quickly.

A dragon will thunderstomp infantry units into the ground, for example, while the coven will blast units mercilessly at range. Honestly D, I'd wondered for quite a while why you hadn't tried all-archer core, since your magic set-up seems absolutely optimised for ranged dominance (in a way which Curu's can be with the archers + flyers). Further, since the units which can most effectively get into and kill your coven are also those units against which heavy shooting will be useful, I think an all-archer core should work very well for you. Compare, by contrast, other armies (mine is the easiest for me to reference of course), which have less of a concentration of power (and range) in one 'element' (either the dragon or the coven), but instead use a patchwork of units to break the enemy. Here, the extra ranks and manoeuvreability of spears becomes far more important. I can't thunderstomp that extra rank of enemy models, so I break them with spears instead.

It is true (and has been for a long time), that too many people define 8th edition as being all about steadfast when, really, this is only one part of a game that (in my opinion), is more multi-faceted now than it's ever been. However, no elf army can succeed without being able to deal with ranks quickly. It just so happens that you and Curu have spent character and special points on being able to do this without requiring the aid of deep ranks - dragons, multi-missile Light Magic and large white lions units will do this very handily by themselves, with a 3-ranked archer unit offering the flexible support they need. For me and mine? Well, I've run into enough genuine horde armies to feel very uncomfortable with the idea of losing my 6 ranks of cheap infantry. Having my knights running into a chunk of enemy infantry and getting stuck there is not what I need. Nor do I want to be forced to travel through one part of the board just because I don't have the ability to punch quickly through units like this. In this context, the spears are excellent. No worry for you, though: you can just sit back and melt face with Str 7 banishments! Give the archers a try. :)

Loving the thread as ever - Like Jimmy said, it really is a good read. Could you maybe get some more photos up? Your army is so painted beautifully it'd be great to see more of it.

P.S. The graphics kick ass, as usual.
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#506 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Brewmaster!
Brewmaster_D wrote:Yeah, I'll miss the intricate movement too, but the more I play this list, the more I realize that the more turns I have to banish targets, the better off I am. I've invested so many points in the coven that I really need them to fill their primary function - removing all the expensive wounds off the board.
That is, of course, understandable and I am not surprised that you ended up with this list. If you think about it, getting rid of DP was probably the best sign of that change coming.
Brewmaster_D wrote:The interesting thing about the coven in a Castling Gunline type list is that in a counter battery war, I'm not too poorly matched - Unlike cannons vs. artillery, you can't really shoot the coven. 1/6 chance of a look-out sir, and if I fit that ward in, there's something minute like a 4% chance any cannonball can kill my archmage. I'm (for once) actually interested in trying this current setup versus a gunline. Nets, banishments and pha's blasting away, and a horde of White Lions rocketing across the field 20", which is incidentally 1" close enough to units deployed at the 12" line to prevent stand and shoot. 45 archer shots with a 30" range are also great for taking out close range artillery like the hellblaster and organ gun.
There is no doubt this army is efficient. And as you have pointed out it has less disadvantages than gunline.

My main concern is that it will come up to very simple game no matter what army you face.

1. Since you have so few units you castle up - with Skeinsilver you have great chances to start first which is always bad news for your opponent
2. You blast him with banishment and make him uneasy to approach fast due to Lions and add archers to kill weaker targets
3. You finish the survivors with Lion Horde

It would probably also lead to two scenarios:

1. If you succeed in blasting his army fast enough to prevent him from supporting whatever unit is going to fight Lions - he loses
2. If he can get to your coven relatively intact and somehow isolate/divert/keep busy Lions - you might lose

As efficient as it is and as satisfactory it can be to win games and who knows, winning a tournament too it is a brute force approach (some might claim that, similarly to big flyer+horde army, point-and-click army). Are you not afraid it might simply get boring sooner than later and will not make as exciting games (also for the opponent) as it used to be so far?
Brewmaster_D wrote:Sorceress, Sacrifical Dagger, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Master, Pegasus, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Pendant, Great Sword.
Death Hag, BSB, Cauldron of Blood

25 x Warriors, Champion
21 x Corsairs, AHW, Full Command, Frenzy Banner thing
5 x Harpies
5 x Harpies

21 x Witch Elves, Full Command, Dark Elf Armour Piercing banner of Cheapness
5 x Shades
5 x Shades

Hydra
Hydra


Yikes.

D
I think he will be more afraid of your army than you. All his units are good targets for shooting so you just have to pick the appropriate order of target elimination. Hydras will of course be primary target for Banishment. There is no unit White Lions cannot defeat quickly, especially if Timewarped and with the assistance of Swordmasters his Corsairs + Witches team is at a disadvantage. With your castle deployment having shades nearby also might not be such a problem as you don't have to move much and can shoot them down too.

Cheers!
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/13

#507 Post by pk-ng »

First of all great game. Enjoyed reading the BR. One thing I would like to opint out is.
Brewmaster_D wrote: Magic is boxcars; not necessarily great for me, as I've invested so much into getting more power dice. I start with a 4D6 banishment on the stegadon... and miscast again. The ensuing banishment does 9 hits, killing the skink priest and doing 4 wounds to the stegadon. My miscast result is the same, and it wounds the archmage this time. 4 Archers die, and the rest of my dice are drained.

...

Shooting - I decided to not move the large unit due to the skinks being in cover this turn, and having the 5+ protection from the engine. Instead I fire all shots into the saurus, but manage only 2 more wounds.
Once the Skink Priest is dead the Engine stop working. The Engine is only active as long as the priest is alive because he "casts" the "spell".
Seredain wrote: I think the similarities that both your and Curu's list have is that they're packing relatively few units (reducing the deployment problems caused by wide-frontaged archer hordes), while also including uber-weapons which can magically melt steadfast units very quickly.
Just a question I would like toe ask D & Curu now is that with a wide Archer frontage 15 wide. Do you guys find it hard to depoly and maneuver? Do you find your lanes of fire obstructed? I'm alreayd finding 11-13 wide cumbersome enough that's why I'm trying to keep my archers around 10-11 wide only.
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Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
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Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#508 Post by Curu Olannon »

Personally, I rarely have an issue with the Archers being 15 wide. In fact, I rarely use them in a horde. I think the horde (3x10) is better suited for a defensive playstyle. I tend to use them as an anchor element around which my other units can work. With the Dragon + Lions, people tend not to focus them too much. Something of importance here is that I frequently have to reform them to target flanking threats, this would be less effective with a horde. Essentially, a horde works better if you can allow it to be static, a luxury I feel that I can rarely afford.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Eldria
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Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#509 Post by Eldria »

Brewmaster_D wrote:Regarding the Statuette of Spite - it was actually the first time he's tried fielding the item (I told him all comer's list, but I think this one may have been planned a bit :P). There's enough casters out there that are T4, though, that I just don't see the value. In addition to that, ward saves make the damage potential even more trivial. So I agree with you here. I'm also sure I'll regret dropping the ward the day I face a greedy fist ogre list, however I'm unsure about where I'd get the 45 points. I didn't use the Dragonhorn here, so maybe I could get 25 there, then save the cost of the swordmaster champ as well. At that point I'm close. Hmm... Thanks for bringing this up!
Ever considered the loremasters cloak?

Its only 40 points and offers additional protection to the unit as well at the cost of not protecting from miscasts or other hits?
Caradryal
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Re: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Blog - Updated Battle 04/19

#510 Post by Caradryal »

Just got round to reading you report Brewmaster

Looks like your list performed admirably. The others have already covered any major talking points so I'd just like to congratulate you on a great win. That timewarped lion horde is nasty! :twisted:
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=46653]New Blog - Warlock of the Black Tower(8th Edition)[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=49906]Ogre Blog - The Manglegut Tribe[/url]

[color=#000000]Caradryal's Host (HE) W 1 D 0 L 1[/color]
[color=#FF0000]The Manglegut Tribe (Ogres) W 3 D0 L2[/color]
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