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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:59 am 
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@Nicene - I think I'm looking for more flexibility rather than mobility. I also feel that typical roles should be further enhanced for efficiency!

Proposed changes:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Protection :: 218
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal :: 175

Characters Total :: 1015

30 Archers, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame - 365
13 Archers, Musician - 148
10 Archers, Musician - 115

Core Total :: 628

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver :: 247

Special Total: 757

2 Great Eagles :: 100

Rare Total :: 100

Army total: 2500

Main points:
- BSB has better protection (2+ re-rollable in combat vs 3+ re-rollable in combat and a 6+ ward) but worse offense
- BSB has magical attacks
- Big Archers are flaming
- White Lions are faster, non-flaming
- 1 Great Eagle removed (from the original list, the latest variant I've played only had 2 as well)
- The army overall sports 2 sources of physical, magical attacks, plus the possibility of getting Fury and/or Flames

While these may not seem like they're vital changes, I do believe they'll drastically alter my possibilities: the flaming Archers are better suited to handle things like Hell Pit, Hydras, Trolls etc (which is typically where they'll find themselves when playing the anvil role) and the White Lions are no longer vulnerable to being pinned down by asbestos-clad characters. Additionally, the increased speed should help me avoid terrible positions - with a 12" march I really can get them where I want them that much faster (the extra inch for charge purposes is also great as Thelordcal, among others, has experienced).

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:16 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Protection :: 218
If you're thinking of Sword of Might rather than a greataxe, I think the flying BSB is the place for it rather than the dragon, so I definitely approve of this at least.

Curu Olannon wrote:
30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver :: 247
I might switch the magic items here. I find that, in my games, 10 swordmasters is plenty to deal with ethereal units. You don't want your lions chasing hexwraiths around the board, you want them killing vargheists.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:22 am 
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Good point about the magical items. If the Lions are tarpitted I have Naenor as a problem solver. Also, this makes the WL slightly more expensive, which is a good thing as I guess they'll survive more games than the Swordmasters. Marginal changes, potentially big effects :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:02 pm 
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I think the tweaks are ok, but I still feel the lions and swordmasters are a bit more static than you'd really like. Armies with a bit of ranged threat (bats/ethereal units, vargeist come to mind) could really muck up your plans.

For instance, if the Vamp hadn't tossed his Ethereals out early, he could have used them to charge Saerith and hold up the dragon/lord easily (if he charges, he can't lose). If you look at the battle, he never really had to make tough decisions, as the threat from your army is always clear (dragon, lions, to a lesser extent the swordmasters), and excluding the dragon, it's always very clear where these targets are. To resolve this, I'd suggest adding a unit of 5 dragon princes. This creates a solid ranged threat, and a very easy drop (as well as a unique offensive unit with minimal cost but the defensive capabilities to survive).

The difficulty is finding the points. So… moving the amulet of light to the swordmasters, you drop 4 swordmasters, and the champ, skeinsilver, and musician from the lions (and bring their model count to 27). As you're not quite there, drop the 13 archers to 12, and lose their musician, but give them light armour. This gives you a nice choice to toss into str 3 combat in the back ranks (it's more of a fluff move in my opinion, but why not?)

Though it's only small tweaks to the whole of the army, I think the addition of the dragon princes would really help. However, you're already making changes, so maybe try out the concept down the road. DP's also offer I6 threat for faster units btw!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Hey Curu!

Great game - it floors me how much chaff the new vamps can field. They can use their numerous drops to achieve a similar advantage to what High Elves can normally accomplish in the deployment phase.

@ rusty - When you charged that Vampire Lord out of his unit in to the white lions, I said out loud "well that was ballsy". This netted me a few looks, since I was in public reading it on my phone lol ;). I think what hurt you the most here was getting tangled up in the middle in your first couple turns. It seemed like maybe you lacked an overarching vision for how to approach the battle, and this allowed Curu to capitalize on it with some well place eagles.

This game also showed how Vagheists, despite being a very serious threat in the form of a super mobile hammer, have a built in weakness in the form of frenzy on Ld7. Curu, you did a great job of recognizing this, and utilizing it to your advantage by baiting them with a couple charges.

Regarding your changes:

I love the more mobile Lions, and I agree about the magic attacks on the Swordmasters for the reasons already stated.

Have you evaluated the overall utility of your BSB over the past games? I've actually been having a great deal of success running without a BSB recently, per your recommendation. I'd be curious to go back over all of your Dragon games and evaluate how many times a) his rerolls have come in handy and b) He's helped your Prince avoid a challenge and c) not died and surrendered 300 some-odd points to your opponent. This is one unexpected advantage I've found to running without a BSB - it's 100 less points to take from my list!

I'd then weigh what you discover versus some potential other uses of the points:

- Some Dragon Princes with a champion to take those challenges
- A couple bolt throwers to increase your ranged prowess
- A second mage
- A Chariot

Just some food for thought - in the games I've played since dropping the BSB, I've found myself actually quite happy with the decision, including a game that I played versus Daemons last night (I'll be putting up a report tonight hopefully)

What are your thoughts on this - I'm thinking good use of fast moving units with champions can accomplish a similar task in regards to taking challenges, and having the BSB on an eagle forces a choice - do I keep him near the troops in order to capitalize on the BSB bubble? Or do I send him out to accomplish mobile tasks, like killing chaff, etc., forfeiting his leadership benefits? Seems like he's caught in somewhat of a conflicted role.

D

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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Advice for Rusty - Your etherial units are beyond amazing. To the point that you've got great eagle-esque units which can utterly dominate a game.

I would avoid vanguarding with your Hex-Wraiths. I'm not sure if this was an open list game, but there was little to nothing that threatened the Hex Wraiths aside from the mage, and he was left in the back. By vanguarding, you gave him the clear opportunity to clear the field. I'd try to deploy these to counter the Dragon (This is a clean win, as he has no magic attacks!) or the swordmasters as you mentioned.

In addition, I'd pull the wolves to the middle for redirecting purposes, and save the Spirit Host on the western flank (as they can also perform the same task against the dragon). Relatively cheap units that can neutralize 620 points of High Elf death!

Hex wraiths charging the archers made sense, but the Vargheist was probably better moving to mid field and really putting the pressure on the high elf army (and fear into the mage unit).

Overall - You played a very strong center game, some daring maneuvering with the lord (with just a slight error with the challenge) and a slight poor movement (and really just a missed dispel) for the hexwraiths that cost you this game.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Curu (or someone who understands this rule), can you please explain the rules for moving challenge participants?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:07 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - I think the main problem with the infantry is that they're cumbersome and vulnerable, not that they're static. With M6 and M5 however it should be doable to do with them as I please. What armies in particular do you think I'd struggle with? I don't see Vampire Counts as a big threat as of now, though it's really hard to say just yet what their power-builds will look like. Remember that I can bring a lot of static combat resolution to bear and I have 2 sources for magical attacks now (before we count anything I might get from High Magic).

The 5 Dragon Princes is a unit I've played with extensively now and I simply believe that they're a poor choice here. Either that, or I need to rethink my approach and list from another perspective. Could you list the entire example you mentioned, I was having problems making it all fit in.

@Brewmaster_D - indeed VC will probably be among the new chaff-masters! I do think it's very in-character though, with lots of disturbing creatures literally everywhere with hordes of zombies binding you down while the Vampires hunt you relentlessly. This made me laugh:

Quote:
When you charged that Vampire Lord out of his unit in to the white lions, I said out loud "well that was ballsy".


Did you remember that he had Dragonhelm?

BSB... Haven't really thought about it. I will say though that there has been a good few critical re-rolls thus far. The 622 point Prince investment is not something I feel comfortable with taking break tests etc on 'nothing but' LD10. I will definitely consider his impact in upcoming games though! If nothing else, he must be evaluated to see if there are better configurations / unit swaps out there. For now, the change of equipment will suffice for a couple of games ;) I'm glad to see the swap working out for you though - have you tried the Dragonhorn yet?

If I were to free up 200 points I honestly don't know what the best usage is. So many good options!

@Nicene - the one who accepts the challenge must move into base contact with the challenger.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:56 am 
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@Baeron and Brewmaster

I agree with both your analysis. Some very good tips you have there, I will try to remember those next time.

My overall plan was to put pressure on his archer base and tie up and redirect his dangerous units. Hopefully that would create some of those big clusterfucks where VC excel. This actually happened with the dragon and acher horde late in the game, but not the way I planned for.

Overall my implementation of the plan was rather poor, which doesn't reflect well on Curu, given the result :wink: . I he did one mistake, I would say it was not going after my mage bunker with his dragon when my general was dead. Easy to catch, easy to kill and forces another round of crumble tests. Still, it's early days for VC yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Hey Curu, I see that you are going to the Crusade tournament. I`ll be there as well. How are you going to change your list? (it`s illegal because of the ETC comp)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:18 pm 
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illegal in what way? double rares? In which case ETC is ridiculous as it says specifically in the brb we can have three eagles.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 pm 
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He has too many archers (you can only have 45) and the white lions are too expensive (a unit can cost a maximum of 450pts).


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:13 pm 
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@rusty - the Archer base is always a problem. I need to work on how to incorporate them better in the overall battle plan, especially when their shooting is not essential to the game (as in this one).

@Chayal - Crusade looks very promising. Do you know if they've decided if we're going to play ETC '11 restrictions or ETC '12 draft yet? I saw some discussion about it on the 2D6 forum but it didn't look like it was decided yet. If it's ETC '11 I might just attend the local tournament here instead (as I don't think a Star Dragon's viable @ 2400 points).

@Elf_And_Safety - if you want to voice your opinions about ETC '12 draft, I suggest you do so in the relevant thread in the Fantasy section :)

As for changing the list for ETC restrictions, I'm open for ideas. The Archers are easy - just drop the smallest unit and get a Spearelf bunker instead. The White Lions is more of a headache though - at 30 strong they're just at the limit (450) but I don't think I can run them without any upgrades (besides, I wouldn't want to lose neither Amulet nor Skeinsliver). Propositions for list changes are very welcome!

Yesterday I was at a friend's place (Dark Reaper) and there were a couple of other Warhammer players there. We decided to play a relatively big game, so 4 lists @ 2500 points were quickly designed. In a completely un-fluffy way, High Elves allied with Dark Elves (well, it could've been the end of the world! in which case High Elves and Dark Elves would still most likely be fighting eachother -.-) to take on Skaven and Orcs and Goblins. As such, we had 5000 points per side - something I'm not familiar with but was looking forward to play anyways. I did take notes and I will post up a battle report, but given the sheer size of the game it'll take some time. I'll try and have it up either tonight or tomorrow! It was a very interesting game, and despite the unusual context, I think it's possible to analyze it from this list's point of view.

Stay tuned for a truly epic struggle ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:28 am 
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I thought that it was modded to allow 90 bow shots? At least, that is what we always played.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:08 am 
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I really enjoyed that last report, Curu. Nearly had an epileptic fit following all those arrows around, but managed to keep my head together and came away thinking that your list really can pack a punch at unexpected times and angles. I think you're right to hold onto the BSB - wouldn't want my dragon taking break tests without the re-roll (unless you wanted to swap out the Talisman for the Gem of Courage).

I like the latest series of changes to include more magical attacks (even from a non-magical point of view I think your BSB will do well with a 2+ rr armour save) and to get flaming off the lions (an eggs-in-baskets situation if ever there was one!). I'm not sure I'd play around with the army too much, however. If you think you're getting a better feel for this sort of list the danger, if you change too much too fast, is that you can end up using list changes as a solution to your problems.

The temptation to tweak is always there (I can't help myself) but, honestly, I think you'll do fine with what you have. Dragon princes would be nice in a list like this (with massive anvils, a heavy hitter who wasn't quite as expensive as your characters would find a use) and, in time, it may be worth considering downgrading your lions to accommodate some more flexible units. For now, though, I think you have the tools you need: there's nothing to stop your BSB taking up dragon prince duty and, since he's packing a standard and is very hard to kill, he's enough of a swiss-army-knife unit to do this job as well as acting like a roadblock or helping your prince hold (with some planning ahead), as and when required.

Enjoying the reports as ever - keep up the good work!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:07 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Nicene - I think I'm looking for more flexibility rather than mobility. I also feel that typical roles should be further enhanced for efficiency!

Proposed changes:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Protection :: 218
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal :: 175

Characters Total :: 1015

30 Archers, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame - 365
13 Archers, Musician - 148
10 Archers, Musician - 115

Core Total :: 628

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver :: 247

Special Total: 757

2 Great Eagles :: 100

Rare Total :: 100

Army total: 2500

Main points:
- BSB has better protection (2+ re-rollable in combat vs 3+ re-rollable in combat and a 6+ ward) but worse offense
- BSB has magical attacks
- Big Archers are flaming
- White Lions are faster, non-flaming
- 1 Great Eagle removed (from the original list, the latest variant I've played only had 2 as well)
- The army overall sports 2 sources of physical, magical attacks, plus the possibility of getting Fury and/or Flames

While these may not seem like they're vital changes, I do believe they'll drastically alter my possibilities: the flaming Archers are better suited to handle things like Hell Pit, Hydras, Trolls etc (which is typically where they'll find themselves when playing the anvil role) and the White Lions are no longer vulnerable to being pinned down by asbestos-clad characters. Additionally, the increased speed should help me avoid terrible positions - with a 12" march I really can get them where I want them that much faster (the extra inch for charge purposes is also great as Thelordcal, among others, has experienced).

Thoughts?


Very similar to my list!
I'm also making my list ETC compliant and which you'll fine you get 25-26 WLs with upgrades (if I remember correctly [list at home]).
Interesting move from DPs to SMs and I can relate. So far in my games (two) DPs have done jack all but I haven't given up on them yet. Want to test them out a bit more!
I really like the new BSB build. I found my originial build (with the Other Trickster's Shard) a bit to squishy and the 2+ AS re-roll will really come in handy + the magical attacks. With the new VC book out I think the new meta might shift to more ethereal units on the board.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:09 am 
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On a less sarcastic note- I really like those changes curu. After playing a number of games with your list, I always felt that the DPs were the ghost at the wedding. (probably because I don't know how to use them!)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:18 am 
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After playing two(?) games vs the dragon list I think it's quite fine as is. The Dragon and WL horde brings two threats that are hard to counter. They also have a major psychological impact, simply because they force the opponent to react to something big and threatening, instead of getting on with their own plan.

EDIT: Looking again at your changes, I think they are a good idea. Just make sure you're not "fighting the last war".
The changes you've made make the army work a lot better vs the new VC, that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:48 pm 
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@ Curu - For me, when I play dragon princes, they're a late deployment drop with clear purpose. As a solid defensive unit, they can be placed against a lot of chaffe/mobile units with reasonable success.

Three benefits to the unit -

Range - With swiftstride and a 20 inch threat radius, they can put a high threat range on a large swath of table. Your opponent will have to react accordingly. While you do have a strong threat range with your BSB and Dragon, these are also very vulnerable and expensive costs (your dragon is less vulnerable but more expensive, while the BSB less expensive but much more vulnerable). It's also less important when you place the dragon princes on a flank, as they can shift their position easily.

Damage - A lot of the threat value and mobility you get from Eagles is undervalued in the lack of damage. Two low WS, non-rerolling str 4 hits is a threat to no one. 10 str 5 hits on a re-rollable 3+ to hit is crazy. Chaffe can't handle it, and non-elites won't be able to shift the unit. They will require attention, which means a heavy hitter will have to divert, and not be in a position to combo charge your lions/swordmasters. They're an anvil which cannot be simply removed by throwing a few shots their way.

Durability - One of my favorite pieces for dragon princes in the flank charge into the large unit. This is a very useful pin maneuver, and it usually buys you a full turn (instead of the half turn that an eagle would manage.) And they're not simply going to be wiped out. Without a standard, if they're broken on static resolution (maybe you lose 1-2 models max) the unit escapes, and can easily rally. If the large unit chases, they're out of position.

So, applying this to the vampire encounter -

Range

Dragon princes can be placed on either flank in this scenario. On the right flank, keep them at extreme range on the Vargheist (19 - 20 inches), and they'll be forced to play more cautiously, and also keep their arc facing the eastern front (meaning they'll never really head towards the central fight). If this was all the dragon princes managed, it would have still paid off in dividends.

On the western front, they would have landed a flank charge on the zombie unit turn 3 (reform Lions and Saerith after the lord crumbles, the zombies will be pinned long enough for them to combo charge and wipe the unit.) While there is the threat to be tar pitted, there's the benefit that sheer combat resolution from decimating zombies makes any other vamp unit that joins the fray subject to mass casualties every round. You'd actually want to be counter charged here.

Damage

Eagles had the flanks covered, but as you notice, the enemy never really has to adjust for eagles. They can be shot down (if you don't want them bogging a charge phase) but otherwise there's no real danger from them.


But overall, I'd have to agree with Seredain, if you're comfortable with the build as is, the tweaks your making should be fine, and leave the dragon princes out for now.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:14 pm 
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@Elf_And_Safety - agree about the DP, this is what I've been finding as well!

@Seredain - whenever I play against rusty the movement phases tend to be completely insane. I guess pictures would be better here as we're more familiar with the visuals and thus it might be easier to understand the train of thought behind the moves.

As for tweaking, in general I don't believe in tweaking every time something goes wrong, however you realize over the course of a few games how you want your list to play and what tradeoffs are acceptable compared to those who are too situational. Out of curiousity, how would you build a Dragonlist, from a relatively abstract point of view?

@pk-ng - I have quite a few games with DP as well now. Let me know how yours work out! Agree about ethereal units!

@rusty - the versions you played were very different. The first featured a third flying character and no WL horde as well as no Spearmen core. I suppose you mean to say it's evolved to a stronger build? As for recent changes being strong against VC - I mainly wanted to include another source of magical attacks after having played our game and considered Furion's input. Indeed, it's common concensus (as far as internet wisdom goes at least) that you need counters to Ethereal units these days. I also think the added protection on the BSB is well worth it (1 point higher in close combat and a ward), even though I lose a point of Strength.

@Baeronvonbleat - I agree about the purpose of the Dragon Princes. However, I find that they're simply too expensive and redundant for this role in my army: between the Archers and flyers this isn't really something I want to spend 150~200 points at.

As for their benefits -
Range: they can be countered by other fast units and chaff, which they might not necessarily be properly equipped to handle. Besides, I find that I rarely need yet another aspect like this.
Damage: Eagles have the same WS as DP, however they lack the re-rolls. I do find however that Eagles provide the necessary mobility. As for pure damage output, Swordmasters are simply better.
Durability: This is an interesting take on them - as I consider their cost to be their greatest disadvantage. Could they be worth it as a tarpitting element?

In general, if you want to make them work in a Dragonlist I think they need to be used as a hammer, where they can really utilize their speed and hitting power to go with the Dragon. The problem is their in-built disadvantages against armies that are already poor matchups (Ogres, Dwarfs) as well as armies that are still hard to face (Skaven, Dark Elves): in the first category the tough combat blocks can often weather the worst whereas in the second they're vulnerable to being tarpitted/redirected.

Apologies for the delayed report. 5000 points is a lot and it's taking longer to get the diagrams done than I'd have thought. I will for sure get a proper report up though!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:26 am 
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Olannon was looking across the field. He could see the heavens twist and warp with unnatural energy as the vile Ratmen and savage Greenskins approached the last gamble. Truly, the world was coming to an end. When the Elves had first heard rumours that the Skaven had united with the Orcs they couldn't believe them. Several months later and most of Nagarythe and Ulthuan lay in ruins, the vile hordes proving to be unstoppable.

He shuddered at the mere thought of this last assembled alliance. Who could ever think that the Dark Elves and High elves would fight on the same side? "Desperate times, desperate measures" he thought to himself as he readied his last units for battle...


:: A Desperate Alliance - Part 1 - Pre-battle Thoughts, Lists & Deployment ::

You'll have to excuse my poor attempt at making any sense of the alliance here. Long story short, we were 5 people wanting to play Warhammer and the armies available combined with who wanted to play with who saw Dark Elves and High Elves ally against Skaven and Orcs and Goblins. The lists were quickly designed and we decided to play on a '6' x '4' table. I knew from the get-go that this meant that frontage would be a huge issue. After the table was set (but before we revealed the lists, which we played as open by the way) I discussed how we should approach the game with Dark Reaper. We decided to more or less give up on one flank, try and anchor the middle and crush the enemy's most expensive side completely. If we could, the surrendered flank should primarily consist of shooting units so that it would be hard to ignore it (psychologically) and also see us potentially winning it (after all, shooty Elves do fairly well in combat).

The Dark Elf list was designed with this in mind, however to avoid going over the top (for the sake of the spirit of the game) we decided on a couple of sub-optimal choices. A big unit of Corsairs was the central elements, its purpose was to help the Lions in either supporting the flank assault or hold the middle, whatever seemed best during deployment. This was coupled with some shooting and a bunker to make up the core section. Special saw a Cold One Knight bus with a Pendantlord which we meant to place nearby Saerith and Naenor (I played my normal Dragonlist) to crush the expensive flank and Shades to capitalize on our shooting. We wanted to try something else than Shadow so a Metal Supreme Sorceress would be our main source of magical offense, along with a lvl 1 Fire Sorceress and a Cauldron to fill out the character slots. Overall, I was quite happy with the synergy and had confidence in our plan.

Without further ado, I present the lists (roughly):

High Elves
- Prince Saerith on Star Dragon: AoC, VoD, ToL, GW
- BSB Naenor on Great Eagle, DA, Sh, SoM, ToP, HoF
- Mage Olannon, Annulian Crystal (high)

- 30 Archers, FC, Flamebanner
- 13 Archers, muso
- 10 Archers, muso

- 30 WL, +1M, AoL
- 14 SM, Skeinsliver

- 2 GE

Dark Elves
- Pendantlord
- Sac.dagger lvl 4 (metal)
- Lvl 1 (fire)
- CoB

- 30 Corsairs, FC, frenzy banner
- 18 RXB
- 18 Warriors

- 10 Shades
- 10 Shades
- 9 CoK, FC, ASF Banner, Whip of Agony

- 1 Hydra

Orcs and Goblins:
- Warboss w/stuff
- BSB w/stuff
- Lvl 2 savage orc, 5+ unit-save-ward
- Lvl 2 Night Goblin

- 40 Boyz
- 40 Savage Orc Big Uns
- 40 Night Goblins

- 30 Black Orcs
- 5 Wolf Riders
- 5 Wolf Riders
- Rock Lobba
- Doom Diver

- Pump Wagon
- Pump Wagon

Skaven:
- Grey Seer on Bell
- Warlock Engineer with Doomrocket
- BSB w/4+ ward

- 50 Clanrats, FC
- 60 Slaves
- 40 Stormvermin
- 2 Plague Wind Mortars

- 11 Gutter Runners
- 11 Gutter Runners
- 11 Gutter Runners

- Hell Pit
- Plague Claw Catapult

Ok, that should give you a pretty good idea about what we were all facing! Note: we only went through the various units briefly before deployment and revealed items etc fully after that.

Magic was as follows:

Goblin lvl 2 – Vindictive Glare, Nightshroud
Orc lvl 2 – ‘ere we go, hand of gork
SK lvl 4 – Plague, vermintide, pestilent breath, 13th
===
DE lvl 1 – Flaming Sword of Ruin
HE lvl 2 – Shield, Fury
DE lvl 4 – Searing Doom, plague of rust, blades of aiban, glittering robe

They won the roll for a side and chose the one with a hill in the corner. This was a bit sub-optimal for us as I would've wanted the hill for our weak flank to give shooters flexibility but regardless I was sure we could work with what we got as well.

Early on we deployed a lot of our shooters and chaff, which led to them countering our deployment with their own chaff. This revealed where their squishy-but-expensive units would end up and allowed us to place our strong and fast elements opposite according to our plan.

Overall, I was quite happy with the deployment. I was a little unsure about the centre, given the big Orc squads backed up by loaded characters, but was hoping that their insane frontage and our sacrificial units would prove to be enough.

Image

We opted to deploy the Shades as normal units because we really didn't need them scouting (there were no very good spots) and we thought they'd have their Gutter Runners emerge later on (which they did) and wanted +2 to go first. Despite this +2 bonus however they managed to grab first turn, as they rolled a '6' after our '3'!

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:26 am 
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Olannon finishes the final preparations, but the enemy are already moving!

:: A Desperate Alliance - Part 2 - Early & Mid-game ::

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins Turn 1 ::

Eastern Wolves move to block Lions and Knights, Western Wolves reposition to help centre. Orc Boyz fail Animosity and do nothing.

The moves are fairly cautious and it's apparant that in particular the central units' frontage will be a big problem.

Magic is 6v4 after they score 2 out of 3 channels. The Grey Seer throws it all at 13th on the Lions but fails to meet its casting value. Screaming Bell gets re-roll leadership tests.

Shooting - Plague Claw Catapult kills 7 Corsairs, frenzy protecting them from panic. A Plague Mortar misfires while the other isn't in range. The Lobba scatters wide off Swordmasters and the Doom Diver kills a single Lion.

Overall - a fairly mild start!

Image

:: Elves Turn 1 ::

Storm Banner goes up. Lions and Knights charge the blocking Wolves while the Swordmasters take advantage of the central house, the 10-model rule for buildings proving to be very lucrative!

Magic is 7v6 after a 6+1 roll and no channels. Blades of Aiban on Shades is dispelled, and the lvl 1 IF's Flamesword on 3D6, ending the magic phase.

Shooting sees the Western flank bring down the Pump Wagon (apologies, forgot to move it in T1), while the Eastern Archers are happy with their new-found flaming banner and put 2W on the Hell Pit.

Image

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins Turn 2 ::

Storm Banner runs out.

2 units of Gutter Runners emerge and they decide to swamp Naenor. Animosity rolls are passed and the hordes move up. Suicide Warlock Engineer moves towards Archer horde.

Magic is 4v4 and the Bell starts off destroying the central building! This puts the Swordmasters in a perfect position! We dispel the casting attempt.

Shooting - Doomrocket lands BANG on Archers and kill 8 of them. Panic is passed. The Gutter Runners all fire on Naenor (hoping to just bring him down 1W, don't ask me why!) but fail to penetrate his 2+ re-rollable. Plague Mortar kills 1 Knight. Doomdiver kills 2 Warriors after a big scatter. Catapult kills 2 Swordmasters.

Image

:: Elves Turn 2 ::

Lions, Swordmasters and Hydra go into the Slaves. Corsairs free reform to block the central spiders; not caring about being blocked themselves (in fact we were happy to have the Wolves around). The position of the Spider blocks the Savage Orcs and the Eagle blocks the Black Orcs. Naenor charges Runners (he turned around T1 due to Storm Banner and the possibility of them turning up). Knights + Saerith charge the Hell Pit.

Magic is a big 10v5. Some amazing dispel rolls see drain go up (IF'ing Olannon to lvl 0) and Aiban on Shades.

Shooting on the West is a lot better - they kill 9 Boyz.

Combat sees the Slaves destroyed, and I fail to catch the Stormvermin with either unit of Elites (they were about 6-7" away, if memory serves). The Hell Pit amazingly survives though, albeit with 1W left. At first this was incredibly frustrating but then we realized it'll protect us from magic and shooting for a turn (it did wound Faeria twice, Saerith once and kill a knight!).

Image

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins Turn 3 ::

Spider charges Corsairs. Black Orcs Charge blocking Eagle. The diagram is poor here, but the Stormvermin are barely able to charge Swordmasters, which they do. Savage Orcs reform behind the Spider. Last unit of Runners appear and decide to try and decimate our Western flank.

Magic is 5v5. Grey Seer eats a warpstone token (the only one he got) to 13th the Lions but fails to meet the casting roll or IF with triple 1's.

Shooting sees the Runners kill my East Eagle. The newly emerged Runners only manage to kill 2 (!!) Archers. Apart from the Doom Diver killing 5 Shades, their war machines are largely in-effective.

Combat sees the Swordmasters die but they kill nearly a dozen Stormvermin in the process. This panics the Hydra. The corsairs lose combat, fail their break test and are run down. So much for holding the centre. The Hell Pit finally goes down.

Image

:: Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith and the Knights charge the Screaming Bell. Lions charge the Stormvermin. West move to try and handle the new threat.

Magic is again 10v5 and this time the result is a lot better: their only scroll is drawn out, White Lions receive Glittering Robe while RXB's get Flaming Sword.

Shooting brings down the West Runners to 4 models and the East Archers kill the rocket engineer.

Combat sees my Lions kill and catch Stormvermin (poor diagram, my apologies) while Saerith Loec's to barely bring down the Grey Seer. With some insane rolls, the Bell Rat Ogre kills him in return! The Clanrats lose badly as the Knights hack them apart but aren't going anywhere. Faeria fails to wound the Bell even once.

Image

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:26 am 
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The battle was faring well in his parts of the field, however Olannon wasn't sure if the centre nor the Western flank could handle the savagery of the orcs and their monsters. Could Faeria and the Cold One Knights finish off the Ratmen fast enough to bring some much needed help against the Orcs?

:: A Desperate Alliance - Part 3 - Mid & Late-game ::

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins T4 ::

Black Orcs charge Hydra, which flees. They fail their re-direct test and must try and catch it, which they fail. The Savage Orcs charge blocking Shades. Boyz charge small, blocking Archers.

Magic is 5v4 and Vindictive Glare is thrown at the Shades, which we scroll.

Shooting - the Runners score an INSANE amount of poison hits and manages to kill the Cauldron! A couple of Lions die to artillery and Naenor dies to the Doom Diver. 2 BSBs in one turn, great -.-

Combat sees Faeria and the Knights finally break through the Dreaded Bell's defences and put 3 wounds on it, along with killing a dozen Clanrats. Our Blockers die.

Image

:: Elves T4 ::

Lions reform to face Savage Orcs. Hydra Rallies. Archers move to the extreme corner on the West flank.

Magic is 12v6 - Flaming Sword on Shades, Aiban on Hydra, Robes on the Bunker, Searing Doom (9 hits!) on the Spider results in only a single wound! Shooting does very little, despite the augment.

Combat kills all the Clanrats and leaves the Bell with 2W (Faeria is now down to 4W).

Image

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins T5 ::

Spider moves to kill the RXB's when they reappear. Boyz move to block cornered Archers totally. Black Orcs charge Hydra (it was a way easier charge than Diagram indicates), Savages reform to face Lions.

Magic is Snake Eyes but 2 channels sees Vindictive Glare get through our defences to hurt the Shades. An amazing display of poor roll sees only 1 Shade die!

Where the magic fail, the Short Bows prove to be successful, killing 4 (!!) Shades. Catapult kills a couple of Lions and the rest do fairly little.

Combat luckily sees the Bell finally die and we're thus free to reform against the Savage Orcs! The Hydra does very well and wins combat! The Black Orcs hold on Steadfast.

Image

:: Elves T5 ::

The Savage Orcs are triple-charged with something like 1700 points worth of fighting power. West Archers perform a noble wheel to hopefully bring their firepower to bear against the Spider.

Magic gives us a decent roll: they have few dispel dice. We want to throw all our might at the Spider. The Supreme Sorceress starts with Power of Darkness, rolling a '1'. A sac.dagger and a '1' later we realize that this was not to be, and the result is only the flaming sword on the RXBs.

Shooting puts 2W on the Spider.

Combat sees the Savages inflict a heavy toll on the Lions but they are way worse off themselves and break from combat. We fail to catch them. The Knights overrun into the Black Orcs and utterly destroy them combined with the Hydra.

Image

:: Skaven & Orcs and Goblins T6 ::

The Boyz finally charge the Archers. Spider charges RXB's. Magic does nothing and shooting fails to hit Faeria and remaining 6 Lions.

Combat sees the Boyz murder the Archers. Though they are down to less than half their original numbers, they really did their job well. The Spider wins combat but just barely fails to break steadfast and the test is passed. In return, the Spider has but a single wound (Flaming Sword proving to be very useful!).

Image

:: Elves T6 ::

The very last turn of the game sees us charge the Savage Orc remnants off the table.

It all comes down to the Spider combat and 3 hits are rolled, looking for a '6' to wound: we fail to get this and the RXB's are killed.

:: Victory Points ::

Despite losing West and the centre spectacularly early on, we did manage to pull through fairly well and I was confident we were ahead when tallying up victory points. Indeed I was correct, after all bonuses etc were accounted for the Elves won the game by 1353 victory points!

:: Evaluation ::

Magic-wise, it was pretty clear to me that Shadow would've been a lot better in this matchup. While metal seems nice on paper, it usually boils down to being easy to prioritize against. With that being said, Metal could've been a real game-winner had our 9-hit Searing Doom done more than 1W on the Spider. There were probably a lot of situations where our magic could've done a lot more, too.

Tactics-wise, I think we failed to keep the Gutter Runners in mind. Despite the 11-man unit emerging West failing to kill more than 2 Archers, it forced us to focus on it and thus disrupt our shooters enough for the Boyz to win the flank. Had they not emerged, the Boyz likely would've died.

Losing first turn wasn't really that critical, it mostly meant one less turn of shooting on the Western flank while the Eastern flank wasn't really affected. Even with +2 to start, dice are dice and you will lose that roll every once in a while!

The Swordmasters did fairly well in this matchup - on a point-by-point basis they severely underperformed, but the damage they inflicted on the Slaves + Stormvermin allowed us to really crush that flank fast and decisively. Of course, the Bell blowing up the house changed the situation, but the original plan was to get them behind enemy lines regardless, which would be very hard for them to counter. It is this kind of role that I believe makes them a lot better than Dragon Princes in this army - Dragon Princes simply do not have the sheer chopping power to accomplish this!

The Cold One Knights performed admirably along with Saerith. However, even with the Whip of Agony, S4 base and S4 mounts I don't think they were necessarily that vital. Indeed, we could've most likely done just as well with Black Guard (apart from against the Hell Pit) or another elite infantry unit. Given their relative advantage over our Dragon Princes (on a cost-effective basis) it's hard to say whether a Dragon Prince with a Noble is worth including here in place of the Swordmasters. It's for sure an interesting approach, but I believe it makes the whole army play very differently. As I've said before, I also believe this to be a poor choice against the matchups that are already rather bad (Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms) as they shrug off cavalry easier than they do infantry.

We probably misplayed the Pendantlord, if we had sent him to hold the centre with the Corsairs the game might very well have been way more one-sided. Speaking of the Corsairs, it was a little risky sending them outside of the Cauldron's range, relying on LD8 is something you generally do not want to do. I think that I overestimated them based on their performance in previous games (where I've been on the receiving end of their fury).

Playing a 5,000 point game was a lot of fun and definitely felt more like a true battle than 2500: we kind of had 3 very distinct fronts - the West, centre and East. It forced us to think differently as the games we normally play are a lot more compact and 'flanks' are often composed of a unit or two compared to a 1000-point investment!

Lastly I thought I'd put some of the pictures up so you can get a feel of what the game looked like:

Deployment finished, Horde's ready to move:

Image

Early-game sees the Elves' Eastern flank manoevre to capitalize on their speed and hitting power:

Image

The East is collapsing and the Elves are trying to make the most of it, reforming to crush the big Orc blocks in the centre:

Image

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:32 am 
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Wow, the domination of Saerith and the White Lions was impressive to say the least. Huge report, and great game!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:57 am 
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Nice win! I was worried for a second by your self-admitted subpar magic selection, but it worked out in the end. This makes me want to play a big game myself...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:37 am 
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I love your cunning choice of Metal vs O&G and Skaven. Very underhanded!

I can't believe they kept throwing away their PD on D13! Why not cast Plague; they're staring at a massive wall of hundreds of elves. . .

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:33 am 
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Great game! I read the 1st half of the BR before lunch and it's great to read the 2nd half after lunch! ha nice victory!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:45 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - never underestimate the combined killing power of 1100 points worth of S6+ attacks ;)

@WillScarlet - see my evaluation with regards to the magic! I highly recommend you try out a big game, though beware that it will take quite a while to finish!

@Nicene - mostly we picked Metal to try something else than Shadow. Long story short, I was not impressed, unfortunately. I agree that 13th was a huge waste. In particular the second cast when Drain was up should've been left at home in favour of Plague.

@pk-ng - thanks! Have you played any big games yourself? If yes, what are your experience with High Elves as the points increase?

I edited the last post of the report to include my evaluation (sort of short, but then again 5,000 points isn't really something I play a lot!) as well as a couple of photos from the game. Take a look!

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Great report!

Could you try creating a gif out of all the maps? I think it might lookr really cool as a way of seeing the flow of battle.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:35 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Great report!

Could you try creating a gif out of all the maps? I think it might look really cool as a way of seeing the flow of battle.

This is something I want to do in my next battle report, I'll do the gif and a quick summary in the battle reports section and have the proper report with fluff and all in my log.

Loved seeing that many elves Curu, and they worked well together. Was the spider disguised as a mammoth?

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