Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:50 am
Hey guys, thanks a lot for some wonderful replies. It's been very interesting to read your thoughts on this and I was thankfully surprised to see so many rapid responses as well Anyways, let me try my best to answer these!
@~Milliardo~ - thanks man Do you have a lot of experience against Skaven yourself?
@Andrew_uk - good point about the Stormvermin, indeed I should've done this! As for his Slaves failing their test - I don't believe it made too much of a difference in the end as the Dragon Princes would've survived had the Slaves not broken. If you like this list and how it plays in general I would highlight some other games though as this game robbed me of a lot of things. Anyways, if you decide to give it a try - let us know how you fare
@Teledor - Thanks! Ironically enough, if Olannon had been alive that 6v4 phase would've been 5v5, in which case his powerscrolled 13th likely would've gotten through my defences. It's hard to say though, but for sure playing a couple of turns without any bonuses or the crystal felt very naked.
@Brewmaster_D - I was confident that I *could* win at any point, simply due to the fact that Lions + Saerith are worth half my points. I knew if I could go through those Vermin fast, keep his bunker pressured and eliminate the Plague Monks the chances for a win would very much be there. It really played out like I needed it to though, with a bit of luck in the necessary combats. With that being said, the Hell Pit made two-thirds of its saves so on average it should've died (seriously, 50 shots followed by something like an aggregated 100 ASF attacks) which might've scored me WAY more victory points on that end. It was a calculated risk to leave the Archers alone like that. As for restraining the Hell Pit - he did try this but failed! This indeed was a thorn in his side but with 2W left, it might've died otherwise.
The Lions indeed wanted to get to a place where the greater number of the Skaven wouldn't matter as much. The Thermopylae comparison is a very good one as all manner of unspeakable filth assaulted me (hence the title but I suppose you guessed that already) - from the Doomwheel to the Warlord on the Bonebreaker there sure were enough fantasy elements in play here As for putting an Eagle west - I wanted him to place as little support there as possible. Thus, by placing the Eagles fairly central, I made him believe that I was going to go with more stuff East which allowed my Dragon Princes a pretty clear field. Indeed this succeeded, had I overran like I should've they would've engaged the Cannon on my T3.
Reforming the White Lions - a crucial decision. The thing is that I knew his Stormvermin could charge so as to have Saerith in their front arc. This would mean that the reform would've had to leave 1" on both sides of the Dragon (essentially creating a column of 50mm + 1" on either side) in order for the Dragon to go through to get a flank charge the next turn again. This ALSO would've opened up for his Doomwheel to go through that little column and blast the Dragon. I don't think it would've been possible to create a charge-column (which wouldn't have needed the extra 1" clearances) and guarantee that the Dragon was in the flank arc.
The Plague Monks in my mind played a perfect role! Were it not for Flames of the Phoenix they would've been an almost insurmountable obstacle. Essentially, they would've been almost guaranteed to kill the Lions after the Warlord + Stormvermin had taken their toll. In essense, he commited the Stormvermin and Plague Monks to keep Lions + Dragon at bay. Even if he'd have lost them both, they would've probably taken the Lions with them and that would mean that my Dragon wouldn't be anywhere close to killing as many as it can do sometimes. How would you play them differently? In Horde formation they're rather unwieldy and I was pretty sure from the get-go that he'd get one unit in against the Lions and play the other as reserves - I just didn't know which unit would have what role until his T1. I suppose that me forcing out his Scroll on T1 affected his decision as the Monks are weaker to Flames (seeing as the Warlord's near immune to it and accounts for a lot of killing power).
About the Warlord though - he was a real pain. Without him, way fewer Lions would've died as the 9 attacks he put out and the stomp really was the major damage dealer. It's a very unorthodox but interesting pick: he essentially transforms the Stormvermin into a really powerful unit that is capable of taking on just about anything (at 50 strong they won't be going anywhere anytime soon, either). With 4W, too, I'd say he might just be a competitive pick actually as the Skaven army gains something it otherwise would never have - an elite infantry unit. Granted, he had 2+ ward vs flaming so attacking him was out of the question, but even if he would not have had this item I would not have attacked him - with a 2+ armour save, 4+ ward save, 4W and me losing re-rolls to hit it's just way too hard to take him down with regards to having to reduce the sheer size of the Stormvermin.
@Paricidas - I deployed my Dragon Princes at the very last moment, even putting down characters before them. At this point, he'd already commited his Doomwheel. Placing it on the West would've been a huge risk, in my opinion, as my Dragon Princes could've gone East and effectively denied the Gutter Runners a good shot at my Eagles. The Doomwheel charging the Lions is indeed a huge risk as well, which didn't turn out to be a good one. His original plans were indeed to keep it close to the Slaves, waiting for the Dragon to make its move.
The Hell Pit very early got the 3D6 result - which indeed are attacks - and reduced the Archers drastically with a huge roll of 15 hits (yes, we played hits, not attacks). Again, I'm very glad it didn't determine anything with regards to the outcome.
As for the power scroll strategy - I honestly believe that he should've just powerscrolled and thrown every single Power Dice at this spell in this situation. Last turn charges - the Grey Seer was very unlikely to escape completely. As for the Dragon Princes dying - it might be that they were only 2 left at this point. Regardless, poison attacks are high variance and can easily score plenty wounds. It's just careless play on my part - I knew he would flee and I didn't have that good a shot at catching them. Lesson learned (hopefully!).
I think his 'Thermopylae strategy' of keeping the Lions busy and the Dragon at bay was sound. I didn't manage to kill as much as I should have with the Dragon and indeed the Lions eventually died. I think this is one of the best ways to approach the Lions - especially in this situation: wear them down over time.
Trondheim is pretty far north (relatively speaking to what people are used to) but as far as Norway goes there's still a LONG way to go before you're at the northernmost point. I think that the shortest days we have are something like 5 hours of sunlight, which means we have an 18-19 hour night, yes. This is in December though so we're mostly studying for exams (or playing Warhammer!) at the time so don't notice as much Now the sun's up from like 8 to 16 I think. Compared to Tromsø (which has the University which is the farthest North in the world) where they don't see the sun for a month or so at all it's not too bad ^^
@~Milliardo~ - thanks man Do you have a lot of experience against Skaven yourself?
@Andrew_uk - good point about the Stormvermin, indeed I should've done this! As for his Slaves failing their test - I don't believe it made too much of a difference in the end as the Dragon Princes would've survived had the Slaves not broken. If you like this list and how it plays in general I would highlight some other games though as this game robbed me of a lot of things. Anyways, if you decide to give it a try - let us know how you fare
@Teledor - Thanks! Ironically enough, if Olannon had been alive that 6v4 phase would've been 5v5, in which case his powerscrolled 13th likely would've gotten through my defences. It's hard to say though, but for sure playing a couple of turns without any bonuses or the crystal felt very naked.
@Brewmaster_D - I was confident that I *could* win at any point, simply due to the fact that Lions + Saerith are worth half my points. I knew if I could go through those Vermin fast, keep his bunker pressured and eliminate the Plague Monks the chances for a win would very much be there. It really played out like I needed it to though, with a bit of luck in the necessary combats. With that being said, the Hell Pit made two-thirds of its saves so on average it should've died (seriously, 50 shots followed by something like an aggregated 100 ASF attacks) which might've scored me WAY more victory points on that end. It was a calculated risk to leave the Archers alone like that. As for restraining the Hell Pit - he did try this but failed! This indeed was a thorn in his side but with 2W left, it might've died otherwise.
The Lions indeed wanted to get to a place where the greater number of the Skaven wouldn't matter as much. The Thermopylae comparison is a very good one as all manner of unspeakable filth assaulted me (hence the title but I suppose you guessed that already) - from the Doomwheel to the Warlord on the Bonebreaker there sure were enough fantasy elements in play here As for putting an Eagle west - I wanted him to place as little support there as possible. Thus, by placing the Eagles fairly central, I made him believe that I was going to go with more stuff East which allowed my Dragon Princes a pretty clear field. Indeed this succeeded, had I overran like I should've they would've engaged the Cannon on my T3.
Reforming the White Lions - a crucial decision. The thing is that I knew his Stormvermin could charge so as to have Saerith in their front arc. This would mean that the reform would've had to leave 1" on both sides of the Dragon (essentially creating a column of 50mm + 1" on either side) in order for the Dragon to go through to get a flank charge the next turn again. This ALSO would've opened up for his Doomwheel to go through that little column and blast the Dragon. I don't think it would've been possible to create a charge-column (which wouldn't have needed the extra 1" clearances) and guarantee that the Dragon was in the flank arc.
The Plague Monks in my mind played a perfect role! Were it not for Flames of the Phoenix they would've been an almost insurmountable obstacle. Essentially, they would've been almost guaranteed to kill the Lions after the Warlord + Stormvermin had taken their toll. In essense, he commited the Stormvermin and Plague Monks to keep Lions + Dragon at bay. Even if he'd have lost them both, they would've probably taken the Lions with them and that would mean that my Dragon wouldn't be anywhere close to killing as many as it can do sometimes. How would you play them differently? In Horde formation they're rather unwieldy and I was pretty sure from the get-go that he'd get one unit in against the Lions and play the other as reserves - I just didn't know which unit would have what role until his T1. I suppose that me forcing out his Scroll on T1 affected his decision as the Monks are weaker to Flames (seeing as the Warlord's near immune to it and accounts for a lot of killing power).
About the Warlord though - he was a real pain. Without him, way fewer Lions would've died as the 9 attacks he put out and the stomp really was the major damage dealer. It's a very unorthodox but interesting pick: he essentially transforms the Stormvermin into a really powerful unit that is capable of taking on just about anything (at 50 strong they won't be going anywhere anytime soon, either). With 4W, too, I'd say he might just be a competitive pick actually as the Skaven army gains something it otherwise would never have - an elite infantry unit. Granted, he had 2+ ward vs flaming so attacking him was out of the question, but even if he would not have had this item I would not have attacked him - with a 2+ armour save, 4+ ward save, 4W and me losing re-rolls to hit it's just way too hard to take him down with regards to having to reduce the sheer size of the Stormvermin.
@Paricidas - I deployed my Dragon Princes at the very last moment, even putting down characters before them. At this point, he'd already commited his Doomwheel. Placing it on the West would've been a huge risk, in my opinion, as my Dragon Princes could've gone East and effectively denied the Gutter Runners a good shot at my Eagles. The Doomwheel charging the Lions is indeed a huge risk as well, which didn't turn out to be a good one. His original plans were indeed to keep it close to the Slaves, waiting for the Dragon to make its move.
The Hell Pit very early got the 3D6 result - which indeed are attacks - and reduced the Archers drastically with a huge roll of 15 hits (yes, we played hits, not attacks). Again, I'm very glad it didn't determine anything with regards to the outcome.
As for the power scroll strategy - I honestly believe that he should've just powerscrolled and thrown every single Power Dice at this spell in this situation. Last turn charges - the Grey Seer was very unlikely to escape completely. As for the Dragon Princes dying - it might be that they were only 2 left at this point. Regardless, poison attacks are high variance and can easily score plenty wounds. It's just careless play on my part - I knew he would flee and I didn't have that good a shot at catching them. Lesson learned (hopefully!).
I think his 'Thermopylae strategy' of keeping the Lions busy and the Dragon at bay was sound. I didn't manage to kill as much as I should have with the Dragon and indeed the Lions eventually died. I think this is one of the best ways to approach the Lions - especially in this situation: wear them down over time.
Trondheim is pretty far north (relatively speaking to what people are used to) but as far as Norway goes there's still a LONG way to go before you're at the northernmost point. I think that the shortest days we have are something like 5 hours of sunlight, which means we have an 18-19 hour night, yes. This is in December though so we're mostly studying for exams (or playing Warhammer!) at the time so don't notice as much Now the sun's up from like 8 to 16 I think. Compared to Tromsø (which has the University which is the farthest North in the world) where they don't see the sun for a month or so at all it's not too bad ^^