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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Thanks for the colour input!

I've updated the army's rationale, trying to keep it as short and concise as possible (see post 1 for details). I've also painted the Dragon some more: adding 2 layers to the scales, 4 layers to the bones, basecoating the resin base, basecoating the Prince and a little nit-picking. Will try and get some more pictures up tonight :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Well done with the rationale - it's concise, and makes a lot of sense. Any idea when your next game is?

A couple thoughts to get the creative juices flowing:

- Since the dragon can't be killed with one artillery hit, the idea of a life mage seems interesting. The one game I played, I took 6 wounds on it the first turn, then survived the rest with a single wound. I feel like a wound regenerating Dragon would be nigh unstoppable. If only the default spell in life was useful, I'd say that it might be worth considering a Radiant Gem Noble on an eagle. Again, just musings, I have no idea how this would even fit in.
- Alternatively, Lore of Light also poses some interesting possibilities. Namely a Pha's protected Dragon would give the opponents something to really think about, and I'm not sure how Timewarp would interact with the Dragon, but would it not effectively give the dragon a 40" march? I'd love to see the look on somebody's face when the dragon makes a 30" charge lol. Light of battle could also be useful when your leadership base is off flying around.

Again, your magic setup currently is solid, so I'm not sure how I'd go about incorporating either of these, or if I even would once I had a chance to fully think it through. Just brainstorming!

D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Life and Light are the two Lores I've considered seriously instead of my current setup. Life usually heals 1W per turn, IF I'm in range of the Dragon. That's a big if, as the Dragon is frequently doing its own thing, far away from my centre. As such, packing a Life mage would require a re-focus of the list as the entire flow would be different. I'm not sure of how I would take such an approach as the Dragon would have to be a central element rather than a support element. How do you think this would be with regards to list design?

As for Light - I believe Coven and Dragon has some potential, perhaps a lot. The problem here is that basically every hero point needs to go into the Lore of Light - resulting in a RGoH BSB and 2 lvl 2's. This, together with the Dragon, would take a massive chunk out of my points allowance. Also, I would need the Banner of Sorcery here to be effective. Again, I'm unsure of how to build such a list - between core and the mandatory eagles you're looking at ~500 points to spend on your specials.

Oh, and movement is a characteristic like any other: as such it can never go above 10. This is why Birona's is primarily effective for infantry and not cavalry and flyers. It would however be helpful against Skaven ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Oh, and movement is a characteristic like any other: as such it can never go above 10. This is why Birona's is primarily effective for infantry and not cavalry and flyers. It would however be helpful against Skaven ;)


I wasn't aware of that. Good thing you mentioned it. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Ah yes, fooled by the FAQ once again. Regardless, an ASF dragon is nothing to scoff at either.

I totally agree regarding your dragon often being out of lifebloom range. The setup would have to include a mobile caster of some sort. I'm wondering about a Radiant Gem Noble on an eagle. Most of the spells in the lore of life could have some use, even without the buff from throne. Worst come to worst, he could put a 5+ regen on himself and a wound back on the Dragon/Prince. Again, just musing here, but as you mention in your synopsis, the critical turns for the BSB bubble are turns 1 & 2. The Dragon soaks up so much fire you might be ok having a relatively undefended Noble.

Regarding Lore of Light - I don't think the coven is the way to go here. Everything that you would normally do with banishment you can do with the Dragon, so I'd instead look at Light magic more in terms of it's basic nature - a high utility augment lore. With this in mind, I don't think you'd need to invest much in it to get a good return. My problem here is that I'd be very reluctant to drop that High Magic mage - it's just such a steal, and the overall utility in this list is amazing. I think light would change the way your list works though. It might mean having your Prince as the only flying hero, which would put more emphasis on taking out small supporting units, then focusing on combined charges with your infantry.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:44 pm 
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Indeed the focus of the Dragon changes in both cases and that's exactly my reason for choosing this approach as my first one (and the one I believe is the best) as it really fits my style of play and allows me to really capitalize on enemy weaknesses and mistakes.

As it stands now, Saerith and Naenor can tag-team just about any unit. I really like this flexbility as it was the main point I started this type of army: the meta-game currently consists of a lot of medium-sized units which these 2 absolutely decimate. As for Deathstars, they can be re-directed and/or combo-charged. Normal hordes can be dealt with in a number of ways. Taking away this flexibility drastically alters the focus of the list.

I guess that if I could find the points for it, a lvl 2 light mage with silver wand would be a really good addition.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Quote:
I guess that if I could find the points for it, a lvl 2 light mage with silver wand would be a really good addition.


These are my thoughts exactly. I wouldn't change anything about the list as it stands, but if I could squeeze one more thing in, it would be that.

I'd like to see a few more games before any changes are made at all to the list - I think you've really hit your stride here with the list, so changing it isn't really necessary. I'm just bored at work on a Friday before holidays, so my mind tends to wander lol.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
As it stands now, Saerith and Naenor can tag-team just about any unit. I really like this flexbility as it was the main point I started this type of army: the meta-game currently consists of a lot of medium-sized units which these 2 absolutely decimate. As for Deathstars, they can be re-directed and/or combo-charged. Normal hordes can be dealt with in a number of ways. Taking away this flexibility drastically alters the focus of the list.


I agree. And I would add that one of the greatest advantages of this set up is the fact that when they double charge an enemy unit Naenor can take up any challenges, liberating Saerith and the star dragon to wreack havoc from cc phase 1. And that helps in one of the greatest problems (apart from cannons) I faced when I used a Star Dragon myself for short period. You could practically lose a valuable round of combat.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:19 pm 
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By the way my first game will likely happen during the second week of January, either Wednesday 11th or Sunday 15th. Until then it's all painting, baby! I intend to take my time with this Dragon and there sure are enough details to go around. I've painted a couple of dragons before (old metal Imrik model, 6th ed. Malekith) and they were no-where near as detailed as this. I find that this level of detail is really stretching my capabilities as a painter.

So, some updated WiP shots. Bear in mind that camera + lighting is still very poor (yellowish light, mobile phone camera). As I get more detail I'll try and set up a proper white background and get hold of a DSLR. Anyways, enjoy:

Image

Image

Image

A couple of questions: how would you paint the resin base? I want a bleak effect and I want to have the wooden parts grey-ish. There's a lot of dirt/ground though, not just the tree itself. I want to distinguish this and honestly I haven't painted anything like this before: bases etc are always covered in grass or sand.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:40 pm 
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I love the dragon, the black lines between red looks great and definite.

The rider's coming on nicely, that's some nice converting. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:59 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Oh, and movement is a characteristic like any other: as such it can never go above 10.


I think this is wrong. In the FAQ it says change movement to movement allowance. So it`s no longer the characteristic that is affected, but how far they can actually go.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:13 pm 
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The orange highlights make it much better me thinks. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Chayal wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Oh, and movement is a characteristic like any other: as such it can never go above 10.


I think this is wrong. In the FAQ it says change movement to movement allowance. So it`s no longer the characteristic that is affected, but how far they can actually go.


I think you might be right. I remember this faq reply had lead to the Steamtank getting double movement also, so that means cavalry can benefit from it too...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:52 pm 
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The FAQ states movement allowance because it is the formal name of movement in 8th, refer to the BRB. As such, the FAQ indeed specifies that Bironas affects a characteristic, which is bound to a value between 0 - 10. I do not see how this can be interpreted any other way, based on the rules. Flyers charging 20" plus swiftstride would be ridiculous, in my opinion, not to mention 40" march moves.

As for the orange, it still looks too red on the pictures. Hopefully the pictures will get more accurate ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:10 pm 
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I got started on the base today, painting a scorced brown covered in brown ink/black ink watered down base. The stones, egg and skulls all got basecoated too. However, it's not too much of a difference compared to what you've seen just yet. So, instead I decided to show you my freshly converted (and spray-coated!) BSB. Running out of good ideas for Eagles I opted for the Bretonnian Pegasus as the base model. Without further ado, here's Naenor:

Image

Image

Image

The basic thought was to get a dynamic model based on the spear/archer kit for the torso + arms. For his Great Weapon I simply attached a little greenstuff to the hilt of the sword, making it look like it's supposed to be wielded in 2 hands (it is a pretty big sword!). The Banner was turned the other way around, mostly out of necessity. I could've used greenstuff to change the angle, however the way it's held now makes it really look like Naenor's just turned around and is waving his fellow Elves with him. Besides, I get to paint the front side of the banner on his rear - the part I expect to see a lot as he's zipping towards the enemy lines ;)

C&C very welcome :) In particular I'm unsure of how to paint the Pegasus' parts and the banner.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:50 pm 
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First of all I would advise you remove the shields/heraldry spots from the side of the Pegasus Barding, so you remove the bretonnian feeling from the model.

As for the colour of the Pegasus I would say that black can be appropriate due to the colour theme of your army, although it will not let you have a very impressive result to the eye...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:00 am 
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He's great Curu, really nice effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:38 am 
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Siegfried VII wrote:
First of all I would advise you remove the shields/heraldry spots from the side of the Pegasus Barding, so you remove the bretonnian feeling from the model.

As for the colour of the Pegasus I would say that black can be appropriate due to the colour theme of your army, although it will not let you have a very impressive result to the eye...


Yeah kinda forgot about the Heraldry - I'll try and smooth it out with a knife.

Colour-wise I guess the body could be black, with the feathers and hair in other colours. An alternative I've been thinking about is white though (like the first cavalry prince I painted), which can really make it a centrepiece in this army. As long as something's black and red it should still feel the same (e.g. barding, rider's cloth/cloak) as the rest of my army.

SpellArcher - which effect in particular were you talking about?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:57 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Colour-wise I guess the body could be black, with the feathers and hair in other colours. An alternative I've been thinking about is white though (like the first cavalry prince I painted), which can really make it a centrepiece in this army. As long as something's black and red it should still feel the same (e.g. barding, rider's cloth/cloak) as the rest of my army.


I agree. White will probably make him look more special.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Very creative use of the shield icons. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:53 pm 
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@Siegfried VII - I decided to go with White. Not sure about the feathers. Trimming away the Heraldry proved to be harder than I thought. I might need a sharper knife!

@Elithmar - the idea was taken from another conversion I found in the painting & modelling section. I think it'll look pretty cool and unique once I'm done :)

Some more pictures for you! I've painted the base and most of the rider.

Image

Image

The flash makes it look a lot more yellow and glossy than it is. It looks quite pale and matt.

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:42 pm 
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The model looks like it'll fall over! How well is it balanced?

I think you should paint the rider in more contrasting colours. He blends into the dragon and I think he should jump out at you straight away.

Apart from that, great work! Very well painted, even if I'm not too sure about the colours.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm 
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It's a little off balance, unfortunately. I do believe it'll get better with the wings. As it is now, I'll have to glue some lead or something to the bottom of the base. The main problem is the angle of the tree it's standing on - had it been a little steeper its centre of balance would be better.

As for the rider blending in - I agree with you that he blends in well, however I'm not sure I want to differentiate him more. Bear in mind that his hair + circlet haven't been painted yet, that his cloth is white and a lot of the metal is silver (as opposed to gold). I suppose the easiest way to make him stand out even more would be to swap the orange colours on his helmet / around his waist with e.g. blue, but I really don't want to do this. I guess we'll just agree to disagree :)

As for the painting, I'm now sure that I have to work more on the Dragon's scales. I guess I'll try and start to learn some blending techniques etc. Also, all the bone needs a lot of work. As such, most of what I do now (i.e. when I'm home on vacation) will be basecoat-related: once I'm around a few skilled painters that last touch will be so much easier to accomplish ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:41 pm 
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The League I'm participating in is only a few weeks away. It's starting up the 9th of January and the lists need to be sent in by January 2nd. I'm really excited to see how this list will work out against the various opponents. I assume that Dwarfs will be the worst matchup for me, with Skaven at a second place. As for Vampire Counts, I'm fairly certain it'll be a character-heavy bus. I don't really know what I should do against this, I suppose a lot depends on deployment and redirectors.

Anyways, before the lists are seen I would like to hear your opinions about the various matchups: general deployment ideas, things to watch out for etc. The armies I face are as follows:
- Vampire Counts
- Dark Elves
- Warriors of Chaos
- Dwarfs
- Skaven
As you can see, these are all armies considered to be relatively strong. Though the league features comp, I still think that these armies are stronger than e.g. Tomb Kings or Beastmen.

I will, of course, post the list as soon as they're made official. At that point, I'm hoping to get some more specific feedback.

By the way, I decided on a name for the Star Dragon - Faeria. Basically she had to be a female as I can't imagine anything more destructive than a massive, enraged, female Dragon.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:58 pm 
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I'm assuming that the lists are locked and that poor vamp player will be stuck playing an old list when their new book comes out mid January, poor him.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Tiralya wrote:
I'm assuming that the lists are locked and that poor vamp player will be stuck playing an old list when their new book comes out mid January, poor him.


Yes, but this was a very clear point from the start and he has several other armies. He just wanted to play the old VC one last time ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:14 pm 
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One last campaign? I can understand that.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:15 pm 
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League threat analysis:

Vampire Counts
Since the rules allow it, he should be spamming wraith heroes. If he can keep them away from your amulet of light, they can rip you apart. Add 2x40 ghouls and 40 grave guard, plus magic loaded vampire lord should be really tough. He doesn't need as many support units with Van Hel's on his side. Properly played, Van Hel's makes this a really difficult matchup for you.
I think you need to expend your Eagles VERY conservatively, and try to use them only to keep the Grave Guard (or big cavalry bus) off the Dragon, after the Dragon is in combat. I think both small archer units are backup Eagles.

Dark Elves
Given the league rules, I think a Cauldron will not appear. That likely also eliminates executioners and witch elves, although MSU witch elves might be tried. With no Pendant and no Cauldron, I expect a DE army that looks a lot an HE army. Might do cavalry hammer like Seredain, but probably is based on Shadow magic backed core units, Black Guard, plus 30 crossbows and a Hydra.
Baring DE RBTs, I think you do well in a shooting duel here, so you stay back initially. With no Pendant, ramming the Dragon into any pegasus characters seems a good idea, or going after the Hydra. I feel like the DE need their magic (or shooting) to help out significantly, so take any good opportunity to kill the level 4.

Warriors of Chaos
Won't be a Chosen "death-star", but I would expect 15 Chosen with Favor and a warshrine or two. Since they cannot have both puppet and a scroll, I see no virtue to taking a pair of level 2s with a chaos lord, so I expect a level 4 wizard. That means watch out for Gateway!
If he has Gateway, you have to get the Dragon into combat with anything immediately. I think a Warrior unit is the best bet, as Marauders will take forever to kill, and the Chosen are too tough. Or, of course, Knights. Try to take out threats to your Eagles as well, so the Eagles can keep his Chosen (or other best unit) very busy. With 3 Eagles, I suggest one turn of fleeing with two Eagles (and not-dying) before you begin the purely sacrificial holds.

Dwarfs
Effectively untouched by the league rules. I expect 3 hordes plus war machines behind. You have to get into combat to get away from the machines, but a Dwarf horde is likely to hurt the Dragon.
I'm not sure there is much to do except charge. Ideally get the White Lions and Dragon onto the same target and you should blow through it immediately. Use the little archers as Eagles from the start. Try to get the DPs and an Eagle or two around the flanks to threaten war machines.

Skaven
I feel like the league limitations really slow down the Skaven.
If you have a chance to Eagle or shoot the WLC early, I would use your fliers on gutter runners early. Otherwise they need to just charge into combat with non-slaves so they don't get shot. Even charging the Furnace, and popping the Talisman, is probably a good idea in that case. The little archers definitely stay back and go after enemy shooting. If you can take out the abomination, I think the big archers become a combat unit, especially for ranking up and popping slaves.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:52 am 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Thanks for the in-depth analysis :) I'll address the main points:

VC likely won't bring lots of ethereals. When we signed up, there was a Daemon player as well as 2 Dwarfs. Now, he's in a division against Skaven and Dwarfs (magical ranged attacks, plenty of magic attacks elsewhere too). Besides, I think he'll bring more of a balanced force (he usually does), such as a Terrorgheist, a Black Coach, 2x40 Ghouls etc. The main question I find myself asking is, what kind of an opportunity do I need to engage his bus? I'm thinking that getting the Lions + Dragon should insta-break them, but this is indeed easier said than done when there's ~80 Ghouls around and Vanhels, not to mention the rare choices. I'll try and save my Eagles for dire situations!

I agree with your DE assessment. The comp might be a little too hard on them, the only real threat I see is Shadow really.

As for WoC - Gateway indeed is a killer here. At the same time, lots of WoC lists have units that I don't want to rush in against with the Dragon. Depending upon the size of the regiment, a normal Warriors unit might be the best. What is the threshold here, in your opinion? I'm thinking that ~18 is doable while ~24 is too many. He does get 4 models (+4 supporting attacks) hitting me back. Assuming halberds and 3A that's 16 attacks, of which 8 hit. Not too bad, but I can't take that pounding forever.

Dwarfs - S5 hordes don't pose more of a threat than Warriors of Chaos with halberds. However, the fact that their war machines are so deadly means I will probably be weakened and thus can't play the Dragon as aggressively. I also expect some tooled-up combat characters. I imagine that my Archers might be valuable here, depending on the terrain etc. Again, I'm curious what you consider the threshold for the Dragon, both wounds-wise and opponent's unit-wise. I'm thinking that full-strength, I can pretty much engage anything since it's just better than being shot at. With, say, 4 wounds, the equation changes, however. The mass mobility should put some pressure on his war machines though, especially coupled with my core shooting.

Skaven - the WLC indeed has a priority sign. The rest of your comments make a lot of sense! One thing I'm unsure of what to handle is the Doomwheel. I've only faced Skaven @ 2500 points once before and in that match the Doomwheel was terribly deployed. What is the normal way to play this for Skaven? Run it with the HPA, guard a flank, go straight for cavalry? Initially I'm thinking that the Dragon can kill it if I get a charge off and the Lions should probably beat it pretty bad, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Your opponents main goal will probably be to move the doomwheel as close as possible to the dragon and unleash three hits with S2-10 and D6 wounds. If he manages to make your dragon the closest target you're in trouble. It might get those auto-hits in close combat too, in it's own shooting phase, I'm not sure. You could potentially lose the dragon if you fail to kill the doomwheel on the charge. Also, your eagles are vulnerable to it's shooting since they're out on their own. The doomwheel is trouble all right. Your dragon is the best bet for killing it, but one good doomwheel roll for movement and then shooting could kill your dragon.

I suggest you read up on the random movement rules and the spesific rules for HPA and Doomwheel beforehand. Lots of nasty surprises. Agree with the rest of your analysis.

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