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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:25 am 
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Dangerous Redirectors in no particular order:

Empire Outriders
Skaven Giant Rats
Beastmen have a couple, harpys spawns moving 18 inches and scouts
Dark Elves, harpys/shades
Ogres, sabretusks
Goblins, dangerous redirectors in Manglers, watch Trolls acting like eagles, Fast Cav, and Fanatics
Chaos, Maruader Horsemen
Wood Elves - one of the hardest builds from them have roughly 120 Glade Guard, and dryad spam. Its amplified against a super small army like ours.


Those are probably the top in my opinion. Obviously there are more, but when redirected against these armies you'll be in bad shape quick.

That's probably the only true use archers have in our list as chaff killers. BUT i can see the potential of the dual anvil, however the major flaw being that they are still only T3, 5+ armor save. You'll run into trouble quick if your combat blocks start dieing.

White lions have several advantages over sword masters. First, they'll probably have at least one round in which they won't win combat, happens to everyone, and if they're out of General's arc i'm loving the fact that they're stubborn! Plus the extra shooting protection is never a bad thing!

Things to consider:

-Lvl2 Beasts Mage with Seerstaff to take character buffing spells.
-Most games i'm not missing my star dragon when i opt to take a moon dragon, yes its not nearly as bad ass, but it gets the job done.
-1 Dedicated Chaff attacker, your eagles might fulfill this role.
-Have you started listening to angry music yet?!

Best intentions,

Cal

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:52 pm 
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@Larose - playing worst case scenario is something to be considered. With that being said, I like to base my decisions on averages with a little slack for variance. Given the nature of a Dragon list though I believe you're right that you have to consider worst scenarios more than you otherwise would've.

@Brewmaster_D - Storm Banner is indeed a hard counter. Eagles have M2 base so 4" march moves. Dragon is M6 base so it'll still be able to manoevre quite a bit.

@thelordcal - Outriders can be quickly dealt with by a flying noble and Dragon Princes. Given their Vanguard move (which they're likely to take) they may very well be susceptible to a first turn charge. The same goes for most of the other redirectors you've mentioned. I don't really see Archers being more useful here: a decent unit of Outriders or Giant Rats with some cover will easily survive a turn of shooting. Remember also that against anything that doesn't have dangerous war machines I can use my flyers more patiently. Even if I'm forced to rush ahead to chase war machines, I can dedicate the dragon + both eagles for war machine hunting while both flying nobles and the dragon princes can clear chaff.

A problem I see with having only one unit of Spears is how quickly it is for me to lose ranks and static combat resolution: a single template, dwellers hit or similar will effectively remove most of the threat they're posing. Having 2 units (obviously) makes this twice as hard. As you mentioned yourself: if they start dying quickly you'll find yourself in trouble sooner rather than later. This is even more of a problem with only 1 unit.

As for WE Glade Guard spam - Between 3 flyers sporting a re-rollable armour save and 3 wounds each I'm confident I can get to them as I please, when I please without losing too much.

You've had some experience with archers yourself. The issue with this list is that it needs to advance super-fast to support the Dragon and flyers. That means Archers will be left in an awkward role: will they advance to get in range of the important stuff or do they get left behind? Do you find them being capable of stopping said redirectors effectively?

WL stubborn: While I realize it's a powerful option to speedbump them, I doubt that'll be a common role in this list. If Swordmasters had a 3+ vs shooting, I'd easily take them over Lions here.

Seerstaff mage: my magic defense will be next to nothing. As it stands I'm looking to consider asuryan scroll or dispel scroll since one-hit-wonder spells are more dangerous. Degrading to Moon Dragon? I don't immediately see where I have a need for the left-over points. What do you suggest for dedicated chaff attacker? Can a flying noble/Dragon Princes fulfil this role? Angry music - always baby :D

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:21 pm 
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I've found that archers are best used as late game redirectors and speed bumps.

And, this might be the wood elf talking in me, but i usually advance them almost every turn unles my target is well within close range.

If you're only using archers as stationary firing base, they're not going to do much of anything at all. But you can have some success using them to tie things up and force reinforcements away from that game - breaking combat.

Sorry if that didn't make much sense, just woke up ahaha

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:06 am 
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Archers as stationary base indeed seldom do much, unless in a list like Furion's with plenty of magic backup. By advancing them however you don't solve the problem of said redirectors: they simply end up being 'expensive' spears with the ability to take a shot now and then.

What's I'm curious about is whether this list has solid potential. I know people don't think Dragon-riders can work well in this edition, but has the meta come to a point where this might no longer be the case? My point is, initially everyone loaded up on artillery as much as they could because they suddenly had a wonderful answer to the dangerous beasts from previous editions. As the game evolved, people stopped bringing beasts. Have we come so far that dragoncounters are no longer that common? Granted, empire, dwarfs etc will frequently feature 2 cannons and Skaven will, more often than not, have the Storm Banner. The vast majority though - including the armies I find really hard to play against for us (Daemons with Thirster, MSU Lizardmen, Vampire Counts) - don't really have a good answer to flying beasts. Fast Daemons? Meet my 5 Flyers! Poisoned skinks? Meet my 2+ re-rollable! Mass ghouls? Know the meaning of force concentration (not to mention I can suicide early on, given the opportunity, to kill his general).

The train of thought started when I analyzed how to tweak my list to counter a Bloodthirster or similar. I then suddenly started thinking, for every list I saw: "How do you cope with a Bloodthirster?" In a lot of cases, there were no good answers, hence the appeal for running a Dragon!

If having an equal fighting chance against DoC, VC, Lizardmen and Dark Elves means I have to be at a disadvantage against Dwarfs, Empire and Ogre Kingdoms - so be it. In most cases, I'll be looking at one, maybe two rounds of shooting before I get to engage what I want. Between terrain and target saturation, not to mention my flame-wards, I don't think this is a worse matchup than your average infantry list against a tough Daemon army.

What do you all think? Are Dragons competitive for us? Would you run it this way or differently?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:35 am 
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I think they are just because of what you said, most people don't expect high elves to take them anymore and I find the moon dragon perfect, sun dragon is to weak, star dragon to expensive for when things go badly. And they will. I guarantee it lol, but they will also go very well too, dragons have good shock value and demoralizes your opponent to the point where all they care about is killing it and their tactics will suffer for it. So I agree drop it to moon dragon for that much needed scroll and something small. Your dragons effectiveness is in unison with your troops not on it's own, moon dragons will still wreck things enough to turn the tide when supported by your infantry. Just make sure the infantry don't disappear from magic since your dragon will be drawing the artillery so yup scroll or destroyer scroll would go very well.

Ps just pray... And I mean Pray! Your opponent doesn't roll godly on the artillery dice cuz man on man... :shock: I've been singlehandedly destroyed by two trebuchets that just thought.. Hey I like that hit marker a lot.. Let's keep rolling it, bye dragon, bye dragon princes, bye spearman , bye everything lmao.. Damn bretonnians don't let them ally with tombkings in a friendly battle... Sooo not cool haha [-X

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:41 am 
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It's definitely an interesting idea! I haven't been contributing much to this thread because I feel that my advice is simply far outstripped by the other more experienced generals, but I decided that I would like to be a part of this discussion! :)

Quote:
drop it to moon dragon


This I disagree with. I believe the extra 70 points are more than worth it, considering you pay for not only the armour, the improved breath, and the profile upgrade, you also get an immunity to one-shotting from cannons and the like. I think this is more than worth it. If you're going to go dragon, REALLY go dragon.

I think the dragon is something that is definitely undervalued in our list - as an army we can find outstanding magic defence, so why should we fear missing out on the near-mandatory level 4? Of course, we sacrifice much in the magic phase - no where near as much magical power, and of course, the defence will be lacking - but between a mage with the annulian and another with the staff of sorcery, you could have almost the same defensive ability in the magic phase as our AM. Curu, you of course won't have this much magic defence from what you've mentioned, but that is maxing out on the magic defence. You probably won't need so much defence, in all honesty.

The flip side of this of course, is the dragon. We are the only race to find a dragon with 7 wounds in our army book - meaning the dragon WILL not die to the first cannon ball. Also, a high elf prince and a star dragon is arguably the best (character + monster) in the game - consider that while a bloodthirster is a more skilled combatant, it has many less attacks (excluding dark insanity) and and only a slightly higher strength than the prince. The dragon also boasts it's breath attack - the insta-panic ability making it more useful than it seems. The fact that you have a dragon means you've spent less on magic - which will definitely pay dividends when your opponent has spent numbers of points on magic defence, as you said earlier.

Personally, I really dislike that people say dragons are useless because of cannons, because, realistically - how many armies have cannons? what, 3 now, of 14?
<sarcasm>That's an ABSOLUTELY HUGE number of armies </sarcasm>.
Overall, the dragon, I think, is still a strong choice in 8th edition. It may require more skill and planning than relying on magic. But at least your Prince won't blow himself up...

I've actually been considering changing my cavalry hammer into a dragon, since it gives us the one thing we do not have - something as hard as nails and killy to boot.

So, in closing,
FOR CALEDOR! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:57 am 
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Hmm interesting points cython.. And with those points I see merit in keeping the star dragon.. If you can find the points else where to keep doomsday spells from destroying your support before it gets there. See if you get smoked by a cannon and he rolls a 5 or 6 on d6 wounds it's toast anyway a bunch of arrows could even bring it down or something poisoned and that 70 points covers most of your lords items.. So I personally don't like to point sink as much as I can if I see the army loosing effectiveness or it's ability to work together ( not that I see that now) but its the way I think and since your magic defense is suffering and your stretched thin with boots on the ground I would personally drop the 70 to be able to give your foot soldiers a better defense against the magic. But if you can squeeze out some points from somewhere else and you feel the list is still effective then By ALL Means! Star Dragon alllll the wayyyy haha

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:53 am 
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I think that used smartly, the Dragon has great potential. You can borrow mine for testing if you like, I'm not using it anyway. It's on a 100x100 base though, artillery love it.

I wouldn't worry too much about dwarfen arty. A hard dwarf setup is five wm, two of them flaming to get the best rune combos. That leaves one cannon and one stone thrower to shoot at the dragon, both with rerolls to arti dice and scatter. You can somehow avoid the cannon for one turn by standing behind impassable terrain, and with size-based Los you can even charge from behind that impassable. Obstacles will also block a cannonball. The stonethrower though: pray :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Hey Curu! I must say, I like the new list! It is definitely different, and I am intrigued as to how the dragon will work! Honestly, I have been considering getting together a caledor-themed army after my Chrace army is complete (already have one dragon for it).

Anyway, about the list:

Curu Olannon wrote:
Prince on Star Dragon, Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec - 622
Noble BSB on Great Eagle, Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness - 214
Noble on Great Eagle, Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard, Great Weapon - 191
High Mage lvl 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem - 180

Good combination on the star dragon. Loec may be more useful on one of your nobles, though.

Basically, the way I see this army is you need to run character assassinations a lot, I feel. Realize, the average leadership in warhammer is LD 7. Without inspiring presence or BSB re-rolls for your enemy, they fail that 40% of the time roughly. With your dragon charging and winning combat, the enemy unit is testing on unmodified LD twice (terror and break test), which gives you a great chance of breaking them with a solo charge with your general. By putting Loec on your non-BSB noble, you can run him straight for the enemy BSB, assassinate him (HE hero with Loec should kill any enemy BSB). If he dies later or flees, its worth it, and he paid for himself not only in VPs, but also in how it changes the dynamic of the game for your list. Suddenly, your general can break a unit alone, which makes him much more of a threat. Your general shouldn't need Loec, as if he is in a challenge, anything he fails to kill the dragon will easily finish. Also, in a challenge, it may be good to let the enemy character survive your general's attacks, as then your dragon can attack and increase the amount of overkill you get. Just a thought.


Characters total: 1208

32 Spears, full command and flamebanner - 323
31 Spears, full command - 304

Pretty solid. As many suggested, I may recommend two small units of archers. The main weakness of your list is its inability to deal with things like manglers. WIthout archers, the only way you can deal with manglers is to magic them (which isn't reliable, especially with only a LV 2) or sacrifice your eagles to kill them. Against a typical goblin gunline (2x mangler, 2x stone thrower, 2x doom driver, + a few cheap bolt throwers), you need your eagles to hunt warmachines and shouldn't be sacrificing them both to kill manglers. You could use a noble to do this, but I think that is a waste for your nobles or general. The archers can also take out support units, giving you movement advantage without using your nobles for this either (also a waste of their abilities), and later in the game, the archers can be used as support charges for your spear block, (charging the flank, removing ranks for CR, which can break weak enemy infantry units). You could even run one larger unit of archers (30 or so), which doubles as a second anvil if necessary, AND has the ability to shoot and eliminate enemy support units. With 30 shots directed at them, they should remove 1 support unit per turn. 1 vs 2 units of archers removes the ability to split fire and eliminate 2 support units at once, BUT it gives you another unit with ranks, which is never a bad thing in 8th ed. It depends how you want to run it, though, and 2 units of spears may be useful, however I recommend caution as I feel you would really struggle against goblin gunlines.

Core total: 627

23 White Lions, full command and +1M banner, skeinsliver - 415
5 Dragon Princes - 150

Solid. I like it.

Special total: 565

2 Great Eagles - 100

Required.

Rare total: 100

Army total: 2500


All in all, pretty solid list. Those are just my takes. I have learned in my games how unreliable LD 7 is without a BSB re-roll or inspiring presence. I think you should target the enemy characters a bit early in the game. If you can remove them by turn 2 or 3, the whole game is in your favor, as something testing on LD 7 twice in a charge response only gives a 1/3 chance of passing both. It also fits the Caledor theme, as I see Caledorians as similar to Bretonnians in their bouts of honor ideology. :D.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Nice list. I recently ran a star dragon list myself and had heaps of fun (and actually won). I can post my list here if you want.

2 things to keep in mind about stone throwers:
- only one part of the dragon+prince takes the high strength hit, and only if the hole is actually on the base. Big base, I know, bit it can make a difference. You randomise between prince and dragon to see who takes the big hit.
- the TK catapult is flaming, so it shouldn't be a problem for the dragon.

Curious to see how your experiment turns out.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Thanks for your replies all! Good to see you having faith in the principle.

@Larose - Star Dragon is here to stay, for now at least. I view the extra stats as very vital for its cost, considering its role. +1S, +1A, +1WS, +1W, +1LD and -1I for just 70 points has got to be worth it. I've experienced the difference between S7 and S6 one time too many to underestimate it. It's basically the difference between "can I take on these 10 knights of chaos and expect to win or is it a risky proposition?".

@Cython - A lot of the feedback I've gotten here is from very skilled and experienced players, however I value every bit of input a lot! You never know where the good ideas will come from and everybody views things differently so please, keep the comments coming :) As for magic defense - I don't think it's that bad by HE standards. A lot of lists don't run High Magic, meaning Drain will be unavailable. I'm unsure of whether I should've taken a scroll over the crystal though. I guess playtesting will show which is more important in this setting.

@rusty - Your point about the generic Dwarf army is exactly where I came from: has the metagame come to a situation in which Dragons, especially fire-protected ones, can work? As for a single Stone Thrower: it has a ~60% chance of hitting my Dragon squarely (assuming it has the rune for re-roll), in which case it's 67% likely to hit the Dragon, 33% to hit the Prince. In the first case, it's an average of just below 3W dealt, in the second case it's an average of below 1.5W dealt. This is assuming it even hits. In other words, yes it'll all go to shit sometimes but on average, a turn or two of a single stone thrower shouldn't stop the threat.

@jwg20 - Glad to hear you like it! As for Loec on a noble: why I completely get your point, it's the really big baddies that have me worried here: a tooled up character, another ridden monster, a Greater Daemon: to effectively counter these I need Loec on the Prince: remember that successful saves from the Dragon's attacks must also be re-rolled IF the Prince wounds (read the Loec description carefully). In order to suicide for enemy BSB's I can use the Trickster's Shard noble, in which case the only thing I won't be re-rolling is the wounding part (in most cases). While I agree it's something to consider, I'm more afraid of even tougher ones than my Prince at the moment.

As for the 2 units of Spears vs Archers: I don't really see any other army save from O&G in which the Archers are really crucial. I'll start off with the added redundancy two units brings and rather swap out for Archers if I find it's needed. If Goblin gunlines is the only thing I'll struggle against with a lack of Archers, I doubt I'll be getting them as I see a second block of spears helping out against Daemons, Empire and Vampire Counts - matchups that usually are hard for us.

@Rod - I'd love to see your list and quick recaps of the game(s). As for Stone Thrower hits - I've re-read the rules for artillery rather closely lately ;) I will for sure get to know these rules even better before I start playing the list :)

I have an unopened box of Silver Helms left which gives me plenty of opportunity to model mounted characters. Now, the question remains: which are the best models to get for my flyers? I'm not convinced that the High Elves Dragon is the coolest one, which other ones do you like and why? Also, what Eagles should I be getting? I haven't bought any units like this in a long time, anything plastic is favourable to finecast/metal.

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Curu,

In regards to the models I've recently picked up and assembled the gamezone eagles and they're fantastic, at some stage on the weekend though I have to check if cavalry legs fit on the model somewhere because I can certainly see myself using them down the track for the nobles mounts.

I will report back!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:11 pm 
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I really suggest you proxy this list before you start building models, as it is a bit ... extreme. I think it suits your playstyle though, get on with it!

If you want to burn cash, I recommend Gamezone Eagles if you can live with metal, or the Island of Blood griffons, which you already have.

The coolest dragon around at the moment is probably the forgeworld dragon that's standing up straight on a pinnacle. Should look good in a HE army. Expensive though.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/W ... RAGON.html

There's also a rather nice dragon from ultraforge, the same company that made my treeman.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:07 am 
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@Jimmy - perfect! I'd love to hear your thoughts about using them as well as seeing pictures of the results :)

@rusty - that is one smooth Dragon! If I decide to start running this list, chances are that I'll be buying it. Perhaps making a successful Dragon list should be my goal for 2012?

I've looked over the GW site for various models and concluded that, as far as standard GW products are concerned, I like the Dark Elf dragon the most (I'm not really a fan of the High Elf dragon - its pose looks rather dumb). I like the Forgeworld one rusty linked even better and it's not that much more expensive (considering how great it looks!).

I have a couple of questions, I suddenly became very interested in the modelling aspect of this list:
- I noticed that GW has a lot of Drake models available, which would make for some nice great eagles. Any idea if it's possible to mount these in an easy way? Also, if anyone's got any pictures of these I'd love to see them - the scale is really hard to make out from the GW pictures. Speaking of small drakes, I'd love to hear about third party productions, too, if they exist :)
- What's the proper sized base for a Dragon? Does it have to be mounted on a 50x100mm base?
- If I can't get any decent Drakes for my Nobles, which are the best Eagles for them? Normal rare eagles can easily be modelled by lots of different models but when I need to mount them it's a whole new equation.

Looking forward to hear your replies!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:19 am 
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I know there's an Imrik model on a 50x50mm base avaliable on GW store.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:45 am 
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Ultraforge dragon: http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/?page_id=64

I've seen the ooold drake models used as dragons, and I think they look very dated. GW's current line is a much higher standard.

A dragon uses the base size it comes supplied with. Some people will argue that you should mount it on the latest common base size, but I find that uneccessary as long as the dragon fits the base. The Carmine dragon fits nicely on 50x50, GWs new plastic dragon needs 50x100, and my dragon from Mcfarlane needs 100x100 which I've cut myself.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:35 am 
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I like the old Zombie Dragon. I think this is on a 50x50 base. It is metal however and likely to be discontinued soon.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:42 pm 
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I think "using the base provided" as rule to basing old dragons and/or monster a little cheap... specially when i.e. eagles came with circular flying ones.

Use a 100x50 mm as new dragons! We are noble and honoured High Elves, we aren't afraid of such machinarium of less advanced races!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Hey Curu,

If you're going to go the route of eagles, I agree with rusty - there's no comparison to the Gamezone eagles. Dynamic poses really catch the eye - might require some innovative converting to get a mounted rider on a couple of them, but I definitely think it's possible. Here's a picture of my (2 person) army from a tournament last year - you can see two of the eagles painted there:

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/57422/module_gallery/original/100610.jpg

I just posted a link, because I'm pretty sure the picture will mess with the width of the thread.

As far as the list is concerned - I'm dying to see a match lol. You're killing me here! I'm strongly considering taking this (or at least my own version of) this list to a tournament in March, so I can't wait to see some reports.

D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:21 pm 
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pedrogzc wrote:
Use a 100x50 mm as new dragons!

If this was the rule I'd agree but it isn't.

50x50 looks better IMHO and is the base supplied with the dragon I like and the rule says to use it. Whether it gets me some kind of gaming advantage or not really isn't here or there as far as I'm concerned. Though the fact that the dragon is taller that way is probably a disadvantage. If it does, HE dragons are hardly the terror of 8th edition are they? Just look at the acrimony there's been over Cauldron basing if you want to see an example that actually matters a lot in competitive play.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:33 pm 
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@rusty - the ultraforge dragon is ok but I like the forgeworld one way better. The Fire Dragon is probably the coolest one but I cannot have a 12" long model ;) As for the old drakes - does any other company produce smaller dragons/drakes? I agree with you that GW's old range looks outdated. Also - do you have a link to the McFarlane dragons? I googled a link but the navigation was horribly cumbersome.

@SpellArcher - thanks, that's one model I'd forgotten! Having a closer look shows that it's too obvious that it's a zombie dragon though compared to what I have in mind: I intend to have a dragon which looks very 'High Elf' like. With the Dark Elf black dragon this is easy to accomplish by simply painting it that way, the Zombie Dragon is a totally different story though. You mentioned rules for bases - where do these rules even come from? I haven't seen anything definite and official with regards to base mounting.

@pedrogzc - I can't speak for you but personally I'm very afraid of those 2 extra inches - not to mention the added opportunity to have a bazillion models attacking my flank. If 50x50 is a legal mount I'll definitely go for it!

@Brewmaster_D - You and rusty have me convinced! If I end up going Eagles it'll be the Gamezone ones. I know rusty has at least one so I can hopefully borrow it and try out how various conversions are possible. If I remember correctly the Silver Helms' legs are split in 2 so getting another angle should be doable. As for a report - it's really hard to say when I can get a game in. You will be the first to know though ;) I'd really like to hear your thoughts on such a list too! How would you run it?

As of now the only 2 dragons I consider for my lord is the Dark Elf Black Dragon and the Forgeworld Carmine Dragon. Links:
Black Dragon
Carmine Dragon

I like the Carmine Dragon the most. It's a bit more expensive but I believe it'll be well worth in the end. It also allows the rider to be exposed a lot more and I'm keen on doing some kind of a conversion here. So - does anyone have any experience with the Carmine Dragon or know of anyone who does? I would like to hear how it is with regards to putting a rider on top etc. I know it also comes in a different version WITH a rider (link: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/T ... RAGON.html) but I don't know if this is a better choice. Opinions?

Also - are there any productions out there of small dragons that could act as Eagle? I believe the army would look really cool with 5 dragons and, if possible, I would avoid Eagles alltogether. I know that models from LotR and Warmaster are generally smaller but from what I've seen so far they aren't small enough / don't fit in.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Yeah maybe it's not even a fixed rule but basically it's the answer GW have always given to the question 'which base should I use'.

I love the Zombie Dragon. The height gives it presence and it just looks fierce and awesome to me, really draconic. Agree it would require conversion work, maybe that's part of why I like it! Do I scrape together the cash to order it now before it disappears, that's the question!

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:22 pm 
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I think the Dark Elf and Carmine Dragon models are the best going, if I wanted to do a HE Dragon list I'd buy the Carmine Dragon if I could afford it! You can also buy Young and Baby Dragons from GW, the latter being very small, but I'd expect a tiny Dragon to have Great Eagle stats, so it all works out :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Brewmaster_D - You and rusty have me convinced! If I end up going Eagles it'll be the Gamezone ones. I know rusty has at least one so I can hopefully borrow it and try out how various conversions are possible. If I remember correctly the Silver Helms' legs are split in 2 so getting another angle should be doable. As for a report - it's really hard to say when I can get a game in. You will be the first to know though ;) I'd really like to hear your thoughts on such a list too! How would you run it?


In an army that is typically devoid of cool centerpieces (although this is certainly not the case in your list :P), the eagles really stand out. I love the drake idea too - if you do find a suitable model, I'll probably end up picking some up myself. I'm pretty picky about my models though.

In terms of strategy, I'm liking your list a lot. The only change I think I'd make is to go the route jwg20 suggested and swap one unit of those spears for a big unit of archers. It would give me a safe place to put that mage - being your only magic defense and offense, he's too critical to be in a combat unit in my opinion - and it would offer a solution to some of those ranged threats that I don't want anything to do with in combat, even with the Prince. Mangler Squigs, Hellpits and Thundertusks all come to mind. The ability to put a wound or two on those guys before you get to combat can't be underestimated. It changes their perspective from "Yeah, this thing can take that prince" to "Oh boy, that prince is going to mess me up".

Bloodthirsters seem to be the fast moving, hard hitting troop you keep coming back to. A 6 wound bloodthirster is still going to be bad news for your prince. But a 4 wound thirster... now we're talking!

I'd probably switch the flaming banner to the archers too, to make all the regenerating baddies sweat a bit too.

I've found running a MSU style list that if you play well and set up combo charges effectively, I find I don't really need the ranks. Concentrate enough force, and anything goes poof. Of course my list is typically magically buffed, but I really think the same could hold true with yours. Most of my recent games have involved the spears taking all the fire in the first couple turns (which will definitely not happen in your list :P), forcing me to make do without ranks to beat steadfast. I found dicing the opponent to pieces to be a good alternative to it.

My other argument against the spears is that frankly they... well... suck. At the end of the day, rerolls or not, extra rank or not, they're still just S3 troops. I find all they're really good at is dying a miserable death without producing many kills of their own in response. As such, I think I'd rather keep my crappy S3 core at a range, where they at least have a chance to do something effective with their S3 shots.

The archers would also put an enemy who has a significant number of ballistic skill shooters in an interesting situation (Dark Elves come to mind here). Advance and shoot the archers, which will be slowly eroding their shooting phase to nothing? Or stay back and shoot the fast moving blitzkreig of flyers circling around their backline? Neither option is an especially good one, and those are the types of options I like to give to my opponent ;)

In terms of overall threat to your list, I see big ranked blocks being pretty low on your list - I (personally) wouldn't want to throw them some spears to make their job easier.

Let's use my friend's Orcs and goblins list - 2 hordes of 40 Savage and black orcs, respectively, 8 pieces of artillery (yeah, he increased them...), 2 spellcasters and 3 chariots.

Let's, for the sake of this example, assume the flying force has managed to get to the back of their lines, eliminate most of their shooting, and co-ordinate 2 characters into the rear of the savage orcs - the prince and a noble.

My math might be a bit wonky here, but the prince and the dragon do approximately 8.5 wounds (assuming it saves its breath for this) and the Noble does another 2 wounds, for a total of 10.5 between the two after ward saves (more if it's the trickster shard noble). In return, the savages do 1.3 wounds on the dragon, and 2 wounds to the Noble. Combat resolution is approximately 7 in favour of the High Elves. Savages lose their +1 S for the first round, and they lose their frenzy.

Now mash a full strength unit of spears in there too - Spears do 2.6 wounds of their own, and the savages do 12.5 in return to them. All they've succeeded in doing is feeding the opponent a source for combat resolution, without balancing it out by doing any wounds. Given, the unit in question is very hard hitting, but really, why would I want to give them the opportunity? The combat resolution brings them dangerously close to tying, or even winning combat. Whittle their numbers down with archers if there is no support left to shoot and line up a combo with your lions and characters.

I am really starting to believe that spears should only be used in conjunction with magical support, otherwise they're just *really* expensive fodder. Worst come to worst reform the archers and use them as a combat unit - they'll only surrender marginally more wounds than the spears lol.

Ok, I'm done ;)

D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Mcfarlane dragons are big, and come prepainted. If you worry about return attacks,they are not for you. 100x100 mm. My internet is somewhat spotty where I'm atm, you'll have to navigate their webpage on your own, or just try google image search :).

I don't actually have any Gamezone eagles, just old GW ones.

I wouldn't recommend the Carmine dragon with special character. You pay £15 for a model you won't use unless you want to try a ridden mage. I don't think she's easy to convert to a armoured warrior either. She's very death mage- looking. Just take the regular dragon and park silver helm legs astride.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:22 pm 
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@SpellArcher - ok I guess I'll go with 50x50mm then. Those 2 inches really can make a difference against cannonballs and stone throwers, not to mention extra attacks!

@Stormie - I'm pretty settled on the Carmine now. I've checked the young dragons etc by GW but I can't find any picture of them giving me any indications of their size! As such it's impossible to know if I can mount Nobles on them or not. I guess I could buy 2 packs first (for my Rare Eagles) and then evaluate whether to have the Nobles on drakeback or Eagleback.

@Brewmaster_D - I'm also fairly picky about my models, at least now that I want to do something thoroughly. If I get any Drakes I'll get some pictures up for sure! As for Archers vs Spears - I'm very willing to go back on this point if I'm proven wrong, however I believe only experience can answer me here as I've decided to start with dual-Spears (by the way - Bloodthirsters are W5 base, not 6. As such, the Prince + Dragon should usually kill him in one round of combat, especially if I get the BSB in as well (challenge with the Prince, assuming I charge I have at least +2 from static).

With regards to not needing ranks - I'm thinking about the units I'll be having problems with: namely big, cheap, steadfast hordes. Remember, I don't have the choppy power of Timewarped Swordmasters. In these cases, Spears help me win combat. Against Savage Orcs there's no way I'd put them up like that. In your scenario I would be looking to win by simply taking out most of his support while surrendering chaff in return. How much VP is 8 artillery pieces and 3 chariots? What I can do against his 2 combat blocks is as follows:
- Park an Eagle in front of one of them, backed by White Lions
- Park the other Eagle in front of the other, backed by Spearelves
- Have a flyer or two in their rear so that a charge from him on my reredirect-eagle means I get a super-combat against him next turn
I can also use chaff to keep one off while engaging the other. Assuming I can get 2 flyers and a Sapherylions against BLorcs, they'll die badly. Your example is mostly worst-case, with all my mobility it would be pretty futile to end up having Spears to the front of his Horde facing 100% of his potential frontage.

As for magic support - Shield of Saphery goes a long way to keep our Spears and Lions alive. Granted it's of course no-where near withering or mindrazor, but damage output isn't my problem. Breaking steadfast is. In this regard, I believe Shield is an excellent choice.

@rusty - thanks for the info on McFarlane dragons. Between being huge and unpainted, they're now out of the question. As for the character-mounted Carmine dragon, it's mostly interesting because of the built-in saddle. I might be able to work around this with a bit of greenstuff. My fear is that the regular one simply has such a thick next that 'anything' looks stupid on it.

Any ideas for how to model a Prince with a Great Weapon on this beast? The Carmine dragon has a very fearsome pose and I'd like to pick this up on the character as well. I imagine something like the IoB Bladelord upper body would be good here. I've found through my previous conversions that Great Weapon High Elves, especially mounted ones, frequently simply don't look good. Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:16 am 
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Hey Curu,

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for Archers vs Spears - I'm very willing to go back on this point if I'm proven wrong, however I believe only experience can answer me here as I've decided to start with dual-Spears (by the way - Bloodthirsters are W5 base, not 6. As such, the Prince + Dragon should usually kill him in one round of combat, especially if I get the BSB in as well (challenge with the Prince, assuming I charge I have at least +2 from static).


Ah yes, that mistake with the wounds comes from a disease I've come to refer to as "Posting-while-at-work-itis". At least it makes the thirster less scary, and not more!

I totally agree with you here - I think that especially where a new list is concerned, you need to just get some games in before you can truly evaluate the effectiveness of the list. At the end of the day, this is a very complex game, with many different factors effecting the effectiveness of any given setup, and as such it's impossible to "theoryhammer" out a list to perfection.

Having said that, for the sake of conversation, I'm going to attempt to further my case for archer core in a list like this.

Curu Olannon wrote:
With regards to not needing ranks - I'm thinking about the units I'll be having problems with: namely big, cheap, steadfast hordes. Remember, I don't have the choppy power of Timewarped Swordmasters. In these cases, Spears help me win combat. Against Savage Orcs there's no way I'd put them up like that. In your scenario I would be looking to win by simply taking out most of his support while surrendering chaff in return.


I agree with you that big steadfast blocks will be difficult to get through for no other reason than the sheer number of wounds they put out. Having said that, there's a few things to consider:

- Big steadfast blocks are comprised, typically, of cheap troops. Your combat characters are perfectly geared to grinding against troops like these due to their good, rerollable armour saves. For example, it takes 72 Strength 3 *hits* to do a single wound to your Prince. Once the support is eliminated, these blocks should be sitting ducks provided you don't feed them combat resolution. Further that with the fact that your fliers provide you plenty of flank and rear charges, further reducing incoming attacks.

- Big blocks are typically T3 and only moderately well armoured. This makes them perfect for our S3 shooting to whittle away at those numbers while your squadron of fliers takes out their support, or vice versa.

- Big blocks are difficult to maneuver, all but guaranteeing the combat happens when you want it, where you want it.

- These troops are typically lower leadership on their own. Luckily, you've got some characters that are geared perfectly to taking out their key leadership characters. Steadfast isn't so great when it's only a 58% chance to succeed.

- You've got access to a S4 breath weapon on a flier, which is insanely powerful vs. low armoured, steadfast blocks. No misfires, no random distances. Just float on over and melt some faces. Not sure what the maximum potential is, but considering the small round is 21 models, it's gotta be more than that.

Curu Olannon wrote:
How much VP is 8 artillery pieces and 3 chariots? What I can do against his 2 combat blocks is as follows:
- Park an Eagle in front of one of them, backed by White Lions
- Park the other Eagle in front of the other, backed by Spearelves
- Have a flyer or two in their rear so that a charge from him on my reredirect-eagle means I get a super-combat against him next turn
I can also use chaff to keep one off while engaging the other. Assuming I can get 2 flyers and a Sapherylions against BLorcs, they'll die badly. Your example is mostly worst-case, with all my mobility it would be pretty futile to end up having Spears to the front of his Horde facing 100% of his potential frontage.


Believe it or not, those artillery (4 bolt throwers, 2 stone throwers and 2 doom divers) and chariots barely crest 800 VP, if memory serves.

Just remember Murphy's Law - anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Worst case scenarios have a nasty habit of becoming regular ones in the hands of a wily opponent.

Your examples are good ones - however I don't really agree with the spears being mobile. They suffer from many of the mobility problems that the large blocks do. Short of your opponent reforming to face another direction, how do you propose to get out of those horde's front arcs? I wouldn't say you have an excessive amount of chaff to throw around. The dragon is a powerful psychological tool, but there is the possibility that the opponent realizes his artillery is a lost cause and devotes it to eliminating your redirectors in order to slam into you head on with his hordes.

With the archers, at least they have mobile force application, allowing you to dictate where you need to lighten the enemy forces each turn without taking casualties. They also stay back and retain their points for the maximum amount of time before the enemy can reach them, affording your flying characters more time to eliminate the support and shooting. Not to mention it would keep your mage out of combat for as long as possible (ideally never).

The same redirecting tactics you mention could also apply with the shooting core - redirect the opponent with an eagle, and reap the benefit of another round of shaving off 5 or 6 models from your shooting.

I think the list will be effective in either case, but I'll be interested to see a report or two to really assess the core situation.

Thanks again for the inspiration Curu!

D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:38 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Any ideas for how to model a Prince with a Great Weapon on this beast? The Carmine dragon has a very fearsome pose and I'd like to pick this up on the character as well. I imagine something like the IoB Bladelord upper body would be good here. I've found through my previous conversions that Great Weapon High Elves, especially mounted ones, frequently simply don't look good. Thoughts?

Did you consider Dragon Prince Drakemaster, or at least his upper half? The plastic one from the most recent box or the metal one from previous DP incarnation are good options for a character in dragon armour. Or does the character have to wield his weapon in both hands?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:22 am 
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Have you scanned through Ebay?
Fond among others these:
Not sure about scales though.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grenadier-Met ... 3f0ff9ba9f

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gold-Dragon-7 ... 5ae0ab7540

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grenadier-Met ... 3f10016b8c

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kyra-Lavarath ... 3a6bb028cf

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Painted-Warha ... 1c20b786e2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/red-dragon-wa ... 35b6cf1bd3

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/warhammer-hig ... 27c02ed148
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/classic-fanta ... 2a15e895b8
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Large-Dragon- ... 20beeef94c


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:27 am 
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Hey Curu,

I've never posted in your thread but I've read it start to finish about twice now and got some very cool Ideas. So first of all thanks for doing what you do so the rest of us can enjoy and learn or debate. I thought you might be interested to read my latest report. I had an impromptu game yesterday and wanted to play something different. I just copied your list for fun and to have a break from magic/shooty HE's. I did a battle report and thought you might like to see your newest list in action.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37199&p=737501#p737501

Anywho, again thanks for having such a great list design and tactics log. I don't post often as I'm new to HE's but I read your thread almost everyday. Keep it up.

Cheers!

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