Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:37 am
@ dabber - thanks for the input, a couple of really good points. Let me address them one by one:
Deployment wasn't as far forward as the diagram seemed to indicate. From now I'll start including pictures as well to give you all a better view. With that being said, I could've gone further back. As for picking the other side, I believe the rocks would've split my forces too much. Since we played blood and glory I couldn't take the corners, thus a refused flank would be nigh on impossible.
The Eagle was physically blocking his unit from moving, due to the 1" rule etc. Since he charged his fly-vampire out of it, the resulting width was reduced by just enough for him to wheel around the bird, approaching my lines. I couldn't place it any better on the corner due to the wolves.
As for 6-dicing Vaul's - I don't really see much benefit to this. With a potential 4v6 left (should he scroll Vaul's - which most players would) I can still get a spell or two through (2-dicing curse, 1-dicing ring, 1-dicing miasma/drain magic). Why risk the miscast etc? Under normal circumstances, I would've gotten another magic phase without a scroll - allowing me to either withering/curse combo him or vaul's the banner.
@ Iniesta
Not replacing the character could've drastically changed the game. Since I didn't consider this either I suppose it's not anyone's fault. I guess this makes my point vs dabber's comment kind of moot. As for free reform etc giving you what you needed - maybe, but you wouldn't have been in Vanhels range of my Archers.
@ Sirgilly
The problem with the Prince vs Vampire Counts is that he can just move on his side and magic missile him to death. This actually depends a little on how you interpret the Armour of Stars vs shooting (e.g. does the first hit teleport him before the rest hit?). Vampire Counts can just Vanhels past him after that again, a seriously annoying opportunity. With that being said, I should've tried using him more like this of course. As for your point about Bats and Wolves - you're totally right: I should've marched my Eagle in front of the full-wolves, targeting Bats with my Archers. This would've given me one more turn of shooting with one of the RBT and probably would've allowed my Prince to roadblock his bus, effectively walling them in place. No need to excuse yourself for being new by the way, your logic and advice is sound here
@ Tethlis
As Furion has demonstrated, the Archers will time and again end up in melee. At this point, ASF pays back. The point is that our Spearelves are horribly overcosted. You either live with that, or you try another approach. For just 2 points more per model, you get a 30" ranged attack, too, while having the same statline. What's so unique for our Archers is their ability to shrug off anything short of a dedicated combat unit. Between this and the White Lions the army actually has quite a bit of meleepotential.
Point taken about the Prince. Using the Eagle to block his Wolves would've allowed me to do this better. With the bus being so far away (I believe it was 20") it's too easy for him to Gaze me and then Vanhels.
As for Lions flanking - the idea was to kill both his flanks first, then envelope around the bus. Since they have to overrun I thought I could delay a major encounter with them until the 4th turn or so. I never intended to pinch together fast.
@ Iniesta 2
Hordes - miasma, withering, curse, flames. Archers can fight in melee and win vs poor units (see my batrep vs Skaven for a wonderful example here). Vs Dwarfs and Empire, I simply don't know. Depending on the list, I must first of all decide whether I have to push or if I can stay back. If I can stay back, I think it's a very favourable matchup. Otherwise, I'd try and take out a machine or two with Archers and hope magic can help me win combats. If it's a disastrous matchup, I can go hide and hope for a draw As for DE and Daemons, I have yet to try this out properly. Point taken about more magical defense. As for WoC - I have yet to experience any problems with these whatsoever.
@ Tethlis 2
The Eagle couldn't charge the Wolves due to LoS rules (we play a number-based system). Parking it right in front would've worked out wonderfully though. As for loading up on a flank - how do you do this in this setting? With Blood and Glory + terrain mocking me, both flanks on both sides, there isn't really much of a corner to go hide in.
So thanks for some wonderful feedback y'all! I noticed most of you commented on issues relating to either deployment or the list. As for deployment, I have a lot to learn of how a defensive army plays. Please come up with suggestions! For example, if you feel I should play more of a refused flank, I'd love ideas as to how exactly you would've accomplished this. I'll start providing proper photos of at least the deployment so you get a better feel of the battlefield. I believe that at the moment, this is where I can improve the most.
As for the list - I haven't nearly given up on this yet. It's a totally new playing style and I find it way harder than I thought it would be. I guess the required finesse is a few notches up from what you'd expect from the likes of a Dwarf gunline for example. Regardless, if you have any concrete ideas of how to change the list for the better, please post them!
A huge blunder in this game was not putting the Eagle right in front of his Wolves, as many of you have pointed out. This would've let me decimate his Ghouls way more, which might've allowed me to collapse both of his flanks. Had I also used Talisman of Loec to get his BSB(with a little luck) and positioned my RBT's better, I probably would've won (+800 VP for breaking him if the BSB dies). Consider this: one more turn of shooting the ghouls would've allowed my Lions to break them instantly (barring poor dice rolls) and the big Archers + BSB + other Lions could've broken his other ghouls (by statistics they would've been down to ~35-40 before combat - something 40 elves can easily deal with considering they were 10 wide.
I do understand the appeal of the White Lion horde now better than I did before I played this game. This list benefits greatly from creating holes in the enemy line, creating an opportunity for a very strong unit to cause havoc wherever I want to. For this task, the Horde Lions are a really strong unit. It might also make deployment easier, as it's one big compact unit instead of 2 dispersed ones.
So - combining the Lions, getting another Eagle. Definitely sounds tempting! It'll even leave me points to spare...
Again, thanks for all the feedback so far - keep it coming! Hopefully my next game's on Sunday, provided I can get an opponent. I'd really like to face Dark Elves to see how this list does against them.
Deployment wasn't as far forward as the diagram seemed to indicate. From now I'll start including pictures as well to give you all a better view. With that being said, I could've gone further back. As for picking the other side, I believe the rocks would've split my forces too much. Since we played blood and glory I couldn't take the corners, thus a refused flank would be nigh on impossible.
The Eagle was physically blocking his unit from moving, due to the 1" rule etc. Since he charged his fly-vampire out of it, the resulting width was reduced by just enough for him to wheel around the bird, approaching my lines. I couldn't place it any better on the corner due to the wolves.
As for 6-dicing Vaul's - I don't really see much benefit to this. With a potential 4v6 left (should he scroll Vaul's - which most players would) I can still get a spell or two through (2-dicing curse, 1-dicing ring, 1-dicing miasma/drain magic). Why risk the miscast etc? Under normal circumstances, I would've gotten another magic phase without a scroll - allowing me to either withering/curse combo him or vaul's the banner.
@ Iniesta
Not replacing the character could've drastically changed the game. Since I didn't consider this either I suppose it's not anyone's fault. I guess this makes my point vs dabber's comment kind of moot. As for free reform etc giving you what you needed - maybe, but you wouldn't have been in Vanhels range of my Archers.
@ Sirgilly
The problem with the Prince vs Vampire Counts is that he can just move on his side and magic missile him to death. This actually depends a little on how you interpret the Armour of Stars vs shooting (e.g. does the first hit teleport him before the rest hit?). Vampire Counts can just Vanhels past him after that again, a seriously annoying opportunity. With that being said, I should've tried using him more like this of course. As for your point about Bats and Wolves - you're totally right: I should've marched my Eagle in front of the full-wolves, targeting Bats with my Archers. This would've given me one more turn of shooting with one of the RBT and probably would've allowed my Prince to roadblock his bus, effectively walling them in place. No need to excuse yourself for being new by the way, your logic and advice is sound here
@ Tethlis
As Furion has demonstrated, the Archers will time and again end up in melee. At this point, ASF pays back. The point is that our Spearelves are horribly overcosted. You either live with that, or you try another approach. For just 2 points more per model, you get a 30" ranged attack, too, while having the same statline. What's so unique for our Archers is their ability to shrug off anything short of a dedicated combat unit. Between this and the White Lions the army actually has quite a bit of meleepotential.
Point taken about the Prince. Using the Eagle to block his Wolves would've allowed me to do this better. With the bus being so far away (I believe it was 20") it's too easy for him to Gaze me and then Vanhels.
As for Lions flanking - the idea was to kill both his flanks first, then envelope around the bus. Since they have to overrun I thought I could delay a major encounter with them until the 4th turn or so. I never intended to pinch together fast.
@ Iniesta 2
Hordes - miasma, withering, curse, flames. Archers can fight in melee and win vs poor units (see my batrep vs Skaven for a wonderful example here). Vs Dwarfs and Empire, I simply don't know. Depending on the list, I must first of all decide whether I have to push or if I can stay back. If I can stay back, I think it's a very favourable matchup. Otherwise, I'd try and take out a machine or two with Archers and hope magic can help me win combats. If it's a disastrous matchup, I can go hide and hope for a draw As for DE and Daemons, I have yet to try this out properly. Point taken about more magical defense. As for WoC - I have yet to experience any problems with these whatsoever.
@ Tethlis 2
The Eagle couldn't charge the Wolves due to LoS rules (we play a number-based system). Parking it right in front would've worked out wonderfully though. As for loading up on a flank - how do you do this in this setting? With Blood and Glory + terrain mocking me, both flanks on both sides, there isn't really much of a corner to go hide in.
So thanks for some wonderful feedback y'all! I noticed most of you commented on issues relating to either deployment or the list. As for deployment, I have a lot to learn of how a defensive army plays. Please come up with suggestions! For example, if you feel I should play more of a refused flank, I'd love ideas as to how exactly you would've accomplished this. I'll start providing proper photos of at least the deployment so you get a better feel of the battlefield. I believe that at the moment, this is where I can improve the most.
As for the list - I haven't nearly given up on this yet. It's a totally new playing style and I find it way harder than I thought it would be. I guess the required finesse is a few notches up from what you'd expect from the likes of a Dwarf gunline for example. Regardless, if you have any concrete ideas of how to change the list for the better, please post them!
A huge blunder in this game was not putting the Eagle right in front of his Wolves, as many of you have pointed out. This would've let me decimate his Ghouls way more, which might've allowed me to collapse both of his flanks. Had I also used Talisman of Loec to get his BSB(with a little luck) and positioned my RBT's better, I probably would've won (+800 VP for breaking him if the BSB dies). Consider this: one more turn of shooting the ghouls would've allowed my Lions to break them instantly (barring poor dice rolls) and the big Archers + BSB + other Lions could've broken his other ghouls (by statistics they would've been down to ~35-40 before combat - something 40 elves can easily deal with considering they were 10 wide.
I do understand the appeal of the White Lion horde now better than I did before I played this game. This list benefits greatly from creating holes in the enemy line, creating an opportunity for a very strong unit to cause havoc wherever I want to. For this task, the Horde Lions are a really strong unit. It might also make deployment easier, as it's one big compact unit instead of 2 dispersed ones.
So - combining the Lions, getting another Eagle. Definitely sounds tempting! It'll even leave me points to spare...
Again, thanks for all the feedback so far - keep it coming! Hopefully my next game's on Sunday, provided I can get an opponent. I'd really like to face Dark Elves to see how this list does against them.