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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Rhetor militaris
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Axiem is absolutely wrong. I know the organisers of nearly every major tournament in the UK, and not a single one allows past edition spells such as FotP to be cast into combat unless it is allowed in the spell description (Such as Vaul's Unmaking). It's also not allowed in ETC games, so we're talking about the majority of tournament gamers in the UK, rest of Europe, and also players in other countries (Such as Australia and USA) who play by this ruling. This is from casual gamers who simply go to tournaments for a few fun games to the most hardened tournament players in the land, and everyone in-between.

I'm not saying that their word is law or you should change how you play because of it (Although I would, obviously ), but if anyone's looking to say, "Most tournaments allow it", they are very wrong.


Well I do very much like to not be absolutely wrong so I'll try and clear this up. I'm a US based player at the moment and this is where a good deal of my tournament expertise comes from but I've also played in quite a few of the UK tournaments as well, where I began playing eighth, although not NOVA or ETC, which are often considered the top hardcore tournaments. Most tournaments, and most tournaments the majority of people are likely to participate in, do not have this ruling. Perhaps I'm out of the loop when it comes to the UK circuit and what's being accepted now but there is enough of the case to support either side that I'd doubt they'd formed a hard opinion specifically on Flames.

As for my post, I suppose my statement should have been "most tournament do allow Flames in combat," rather than "I haven't heard of a tournament," and it was poor of me to word it so. I was aware that ETC comped this, but when discussing for the majority of players, who will never go to ETC, I was pointing out that most of them do not comp Flames. The ones that do restrict flames, usually are those which have other specific rules comping magic phases (most notably ETC) to try and reduce the effectiveness of all magic (often times by stating unless a spell specifically allows it to be cast in combat), which is done at the discretion of the organizing committee and usually affects our spells. Often times however, this is in the form of "Gateway and Thirteenth cannot be cast into combat," but unless they give specific reference also to Flames, which most do not, this doesn't include it (unless, again they've made overarching changes to how the magic phase operates). This is because you don't use old edition rules to enforce old spells; you use new edition rules to enforce old spells and then make exceptions for those it obviously breaks (Gateway and Thirteenth). It's a gentlemen's game and at the end of the day it depends on what kind of gentlemen you have organizing the tournament; I always make a point of asking about this and other questionable rules that the new edition has created before the tournament starts and it's usually not a problem.

Summed up, if you're talking about the top tournament scene then you are correct. If you're talking about "most," then my statement still holds water as "most" is not only UK's top tournaments.

Quote:
Also Axiem is wrong on turn order determining combat reform- it's a straight dice-off as per the main rulebook. Funny how important a simple roll off can be sometime


You are correct there, I had gotten that one wrong. I would however appreciate you holding back some of your fervor when trying to prove me wrong.

Axiem


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:18 am 
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Ok guys, enough of the rules discussion. Let's not turn this into an "I'm-right-you're-wrong" argument.

@Anvalous - brilliant idea! In itself, I don't believe a noble simply equipped as a standard fighter is worth it. Basically there are just so many better choices in our book for putting out sheer damage. However, this made me view the Prince in a new light. If a noble isn't worth it, is the Prince with his +1WS, I, A, LD and Bow of the Seafarer worth it at ~100 points more? Combined with Axiem's opinion that the Prince is sub-optimal, I'm beginning to see the argument differently. Of course, this is all based on a single game and reading on forums, and will require more playtesting. Point is, your idea about a noble gave me a new angle to looking at things.

@Shadeseraph - good to know new people are finding this blog interesting! I highly recommend you check out the other threads around here, too. I will definitely keep updating you people on the progress.

A kongaline is when you place a unit with only 1 model per rank. This makes the unit very long and thin. If you place the champion in front, it's impossible for a front-charging enemy unit to kill more than him. This is a cheesy move that is often exploited in the most hardcore tournaments. As mentioned previously in this thread, it is frowned upon in our local gaming environment. I don't see why GW don't FAQ it so that a unit has to have at least X models per rank, effectively killing this exploit.

So guys, I'd like to ask you a couple of things. Basically, we agree about most of the basics here. Where we differ in opinion is how to spend the remaining ~300 points or so. As of now, I'm investing them in a Prince and a few more White Lions. As has been pointed out, there are other alternatives. I believe the best way to argue for a certain element is to put it in context and give reasons for it. As such, I'd like you to post concrete list suggestions with reasoning for alternative uses of the last ~300 points. Before you do that, I'd like to discuss a couple of issues first and provide a suggestion of my own.

:: Issues with the magic-shooting synergy High Elf army ::

There are a couple of general points this army struggles with. One of them, which I find the hardest one to deal with, is frontage. Often times, I find my units unable to properly deploy in a manner which allows tactical movement and sufficient lines of sight for shooting, especially if I want to concentrate my fire.

Fast enemies are also a problem. Due to the frontage problems, a good position can tend to be rather static, something fast enemies can potentially exploit. While this army has enough shooting to take care of small units of fast cavalry, Dark Elf Cold One busses, Vampire Counts' vanhels'd units etc will often find themselves too close for comfort too soon.

Being outgunned can also be a major issue. Against the worst gunlines, I doubt that I can sit back and enjoy. This presents an odd case for this army - basically as I have to play the other role as opposed to how it generally plays.

The result of these issues is related to what we discussed with regards to Shadow and Metal for my magic lore: what choices help me out in these hard matchups?

First - some general thoughts I've had on the matter:
- A Prince with either Shadow Armour or Armour of Stars could be an interesting addition. Both would weaken his close combat potential but see him get to use his Bow more. The first choice pretty much demands that I invest in a small group of Shadow Warriors at the very least. The second one interestingly gives me, effectively, another speedbump. Between Shadow magic and Armour of Stars, my list can play really evasive. I believe both these setups work very well against the hard matchups, too.

Now, I'm going to list an alternative army where I don't take the Prince. Bear in mind that I'm trying to overcome hard matchups here, while maintaining the overall army concept and play to its strengths.

High Magic Archmage - level 4, Ring of Fury, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 345
Noble - Battle Standard Bearer, Reaver Bow, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon :: 169
Shadow Mage - level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (spells TBA) :: 165

26 Archers - standard bearer and musician :: 301
15 Archers - standard bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and musician :: 190
12 Archers - musician :: 137

21 White Lions - musician and standard bearer with Banner of Sorcery :: 383
21 White Lions - musician and standard bearer :: 318
1 White Lion Chariot

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers :: 200
2 Great Eagles :: 100

====
2498

This case sees my Prince go to give room to a Lion Chariot, another Eagle and a few more Lions. The Chariot adds very little frontage, same goes for getting a few more Lions. The second Eagle gives me more tactical flexibility and helps out against shooty armies by providing target saturation.

This setup gives med +2 drops - making it easier to out-deploy an opponent.

Now I'm looking forward to see your suggestions :)

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:18 am 
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Hi Curu!

A great topic you have here, the one I often read not only for battle reports but even more so for the discussion they inspire. Even if it is now about the army so much different to cavalry prince approach. Speaking of which, do you feel the current army which is more static in the movement phase suits your style better than dynamic and aggressive way more combat orientated force?

Another question I have is about your use of White Lions. It seems from your recent reports that you throw them into combat somewhat recklessly. They do hold the line but at a great cost and I have a feeling they might not be that lucky every game, especially when your opponent makes less mistakes. I think you were more careful with your units before so is it intentional to send them into savage combat because they are stubborn? Or maybe they are just good back up when things go wrong and you need some time to come up with a new idea after making a mistake?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:46 am 
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The list has suddenly taken a very sharp turn towards Chrace!

I like it: it solves the problems you were having pretty well and gives you the flexibility of another Eagle, without compromising your shooting base. The only concern I have is that if you're worried (aptly) of shooting lists, the Lion Chariot poses a liability as those lists are sure to have Cannons; against all other lists, I can only see it being helpful. You might also consider taking two, instead of the extra eagle and white lions (or in replacement of Ring of Fury: I'm still not convinced that High Magic and Shadow aren't both more useful, especially if you have the BSB with the Reaver Bow for Ethereals).

As for beefing up the second unit of White Lions, I'm not sure you'll need them. With the inclusion of the Lion Chariot, I feel you need to support it to give you something of a Hammer, however you decide to use it. As in your battle report, the White Lions on the left needed serious help in order to survive and I'm not sure a single chariot is that (two would be though). I would also like to ideally see banner of discipline on one of the archer units, with the Eternal Flame banner being swapped to the Lions, although this hurts your ability to drop Regenerating monsters at range. You'll have to try how well you can get on with LD 9.

The scout armor is interesting, but I worry that you couldn't protect him enough against shooting. If you're wanting scouts however, to deal with warmachines or harass the enemy, a couple shadow warriors might not hurt. Both options will reduce the chance you get the +1 to go first however; something to keep in mind.

My suggestion, as I've already voiced, is still the Cavalry. A nice Hammer would change the dynamics of your list and help deal with your concerns. You can also put them off to one side (as you would anyway with a hammer) or in front of your Lions for a turn, to limit crowding your deployment, but it may still get tricky.

- Prince (262 points)
- Ring of Fury (40 Points)
- Gleaming Pennant (5 Points)
- Charmed Shield (5 Points)
+ 10 Dragon Princes, Musician (310 Points)

Alternatively, with the duel chariots:

- Prince (262 points)
- Ring of Fury (40 Points)
- Gleaming Pennant (5 Points)
- Glyphed Shield (5 Points)
- Dragonbane Gem (5 Points)
- 1 White Lion (15 Points)
+ Lion Chariot (140)
+ Lion Chariot (140)
+ Great Eagle (50)

If you're going to add additional deploys anyway, should probably make sure you're getting everything you want from them, hence the extra eagle. If you decide you want to keep Ring of Fury, just drop the difference from the Dragon Princes (first example) or downgrade the Lion Chariot to a Tiranoc Chariot and add back the White Lion.

I'll throw out unorthodox idea which changes the dynamics of the list even more (and is actually what I'm currently testing with my version). What about buying a Dragon for your Archmage and swapping the Ring of Fury and Dragonbane Gem for a Ward Save? If you want to keep the Annulian Crystal, you'd have to settle for either a 5+ Ward Save (with Moon Dragon) or a Sun Dragon (and 4+ Ward): my version has the Silver Wand and a 4+ Ward Save on a Moon Dragon, but I know you're loving the Crystal. You could also change things up more drastically by adding another level one (as you were originally thinking) and giving him the Crystal (if you can't be parted with it) to make room on your Archmage. A big stretch, but it does really add something to your list: think of it basically as a Lord of Change running around (filling a similar roles to the Chariot), in addition to the rest of your list. The extra LD range boost will also help if your spreading out so much - ensuring everything gets the LD9 will be key to your White Lions holding. Similarly, fast lists will be much less likely to rush forward if your dragon can eat their Knights in combination with your White Lions. The only concerns are his non-existent armor save and his weakness to gunlines. However, small frontage, a lot of damage, and a bit of a surprise for your opponents, all in a nice package. Something like:

- Prince (262)
- Annulian Crystal (40 Points)
- Ring of Fury (40 Points)
- Dragonbane Gem (5 Poinnts)
- Charmed Shield
- Gleaming Pennant
+ Moon Dragon (300 Points)
+ Talisman of Preservation (45 Points)
+ Silver Wand (10 Points)

Or:

- Prince (262)
- Ring of Fury (40 Points)
- Charmed Shield (5 Points)
+ Sun Dragon (250 Points)
+ Guardian Phoenix (25 Points)
+ 2 White Lions (30 Points)

The big appeal of this is you keep your current number of deploys and still gain your hammer, if in a roundabout way. Personally, I feel the first is much stronger simply because of the Ward and outweighs the Crystal in my mind. It comes down to how much you want that extra dispel dice taken away.

While on the character front, you were just about using all the power dice you had every turn and unless you boosted this with Jewel of the Dusk, you're probably going to be running low on dice each phase. To that end, if you do decide to take the additional Level One with Shadow, might I suggest Jewel of the Dusk?

Other than that, I don't really see any options that avoid the problems you're encountering/hypothesizing. You can't realistically take more archers, as you probably won't get all the shots anyway with the frontage issue or more elites for the same reason. That leaves you with Characters and Mount Options, Skirmishers, Chariots, Cavalry, and Bolt Throwers / Eagles. You could also invest all those points into buying White Lions, bringing them back up towards the 28 you had originally, but I'm not sure that gains you anything, and only makes you more susceptible to killy spells. Similarly, if you felt Phoenix Guard might benefit you better (more resiliency against shooting lists) you could swap to them and buy a banner/character to make the more killy. Razor standard is nice on them.

Keep testing and theorizing!

Hope that helps!

Axiem


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:09 am 
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@ Curu: your last list looks pretty much optimal for this setup I'd say. I'd only change one thing, and that's up to preference: I'd make the White Lions with the BoS into a unit of Phoenix Guard. These guys can soak up a lot of damage with their ward, helping against gunlines. Ok they don't hit as hard, but with your shadow archmage you have plenty of options to remedy that (withering, mind razor).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:21 pm 
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@Swordmaster of Hoeth - as of now, the list feels very static. By what I've seen from Furion's battle reports though, it doesn't have to be this way. In general I'm not a fan of one-trick-pony shooting lists, not playing them nor playing against them. I'm hoping to be able to involve my units in a more dynamic way though. Perhaps some of the composition needs to change, perhaps my deployment and tactics need to improve.

As for my White Lions - they have indeed gotten the hard tasks. I do, however view this as a result of my own, poor play. In this way, they are a very forgiving unit actually. With my cavalry lists, I couldn't do this with any units. In the future though, I need to play better so the Lions aren't forced to try and deal with a very hard situation. As flexible and forgiving as they might be, they can't handle everything.

@Axiem - some interesting ideas! I do believe the Dragon is suicidal, as shooting armies can pick him off way too easily and even very poor units can easily hurt my Archmage bad in melee due to the Dragon's big footprint. The main problem I see with Dragon Princes is footprint. Even with forcing an enemy closer it can be hard to get them where I want them together with the Lions. The dual chariot idea is interesting, though this can make it very hard against gunlines as expensive chariots are perfect targets for cannons, among other shooty things.

@cisse - I've been considering Phoenix Guard. However, I need a flexible unit capable of performing a number of tasks. PG - even with the Razor Standard - do not have enough damage output to be able to perform a hammer role reliably. One of the big advantages of the Lions is that they work well without magic support against almost all enemies. Also, I don't have an Archmage sporting Shadow (he has High), nor will I be picking Mindrazor.

The more I think of it, the more I believe in the Prince though. Since my last post I've been contemplating the Armour of Stars setup and at this point, it seems like a really good deal. Think of it like this:

With the Armour of Stars the Prince can act as a speedbump better than anything else. He can stop a unit wherever he wants (as they can't overrun), as well as providing a rather nasty stand and shoot. With my mage sporting shadow, I can swap him back to roadblock a second time! Also, with the Armour of Stars I am almost guaranteed to get him to attack 3 times in close combat. The only thing I have to be careful about is charging him into a combat (as this will teleport him in a random direction before it's my opponent's turn to move - in general a rather risky proposition, unless he doesn't sport any magic damage or shooting).

I really want to try this setup as I believe it has great potential. It's also a rather unique idea (I've never seen it in a list trying to be competitive before at the very least), opening up some new possibilities which can synergize well with the list.

Just imagine this: a deathstar is about to charge my Archer bunker in Turn 3 (not an unlikely event) containing my Archmage and BSB. The Prince steps out, is subsequently charged, kills a couple and is teleported away after taking a wound. The unit is stuck in place. Now, come next turn around and it's my turn. If I'm lucky with the teleport, I can move normally, get in its way again, shoot them, and stand and shoot yet again when they charge the second time. Best thing? I will STILL BE ALIVE and able to perform the very same trick a THIRD time before he dies (if I even need to sacrifice him at all). Meanwhile, my Archers can back off, giving them some space (did I mention that they, too, can shoot while this is going on?). If I'm unlucky with the teleport, I can march him closer, move the Shadow mage out and use Lore attribute to swap.

The more I think about this guy's potential, the more I want to try him out. Of course, bad things can happen, but I do believe that for ~260 points, he's a real still. Equip him with the Talisman of Loec for desperate situations and you have a REAL trickster on your hands ;)

So the bad news is that I don't have time to play this Sunday, which is our regular play-day at the local gaming club. The next round of our mighty empires campaign is @ 2250 points, which is a points range at which I believe I simply cannot include the Prince (haven't even looked at the restrictions but thinking about how character heavy my army will be). I might ask rusty for a game on like Tuesday or something to get a feel of how this guy plays.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Just imagine this: a deathstar is about to charge my Archer bunker in Turn 3 (not an unlikely event) containing my Archmage and BSB. The Prince steps out, is subsequently charged, kills a couple and is teleported away after taking a wound. The unit is stuck in place. Now, come next turn around and it's my turn. If I'm lucky with the teleport, I can move normally, get in its way again, shoot them, and stand and shoot yet again when they charge the second time. Best thing? I will STILL BE ALIVE and able to perform the very same trick a THIRD time before he dies (if I even need to sacrifice him at all). Meanwhile, my Archers can back off, giving them some space (did I mention that they, too, can shoot while this is going on?). If I'm unlucky with the teleport, I can march him closer, move the Shadow mage out and use Lore attribute to swap.


[insert obligatory Portal joke here]

I know magic is an scarce resource, and other lores are far more interesting for this kind of army, but should you try this setup Life lore could be a decent asset. Healing your hero for "free" is always good, and T5 archers can be scary.

Anyway, my biggest problem with this tactic is that it leaves him open to warmachine fire and to spells, and that the armor counts as light armor, although the prince will have accomplished his target if the unit didn't charge him in order to snipe him. The armor isn't that expensive, and with an army focused on projectile fire you could have dealt with all plausible dangers before the kamikaze action is needed, so it's still worth a try, I think. Personally, I love crazy tactics like this one.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:45 pm 
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@Axiem - some interesting ideas! I do believe the Dragon is suicidal, as shooting armies can pick him off way too easily and even very poor units can easily hurt my Archmage bad in melee due to the Dragon's big footprint. The main problem I see with Dragon Princes is footprint. Even with forcing an enemy closer it can be hard to get them where I want them together with the Lions. The dual chariot idea is interesting, though this can make it very hard against gunlines as expensive chariots are perfect targets for cannons, among other shooty things.


Agreed, against shooting lists it could be rough but he still could have merit as a hammer. I play phoenix guard only because I have the ability to make 4+ Ward saves and so I don't worry too much about the Dragon-Archmage, although he does feel squishy. As for the footprint issue, your in a bit of a bind then aren't you? You need a Hammer unit but you can't afford to fit them in. The one thing you could consider doing is dropping the small unit of archers down to Spearmen solely for the purpose of being a bunker for your Mage and BSB (or just keep them as archers and put them further back than you normally would, behind whatever hammer you choose, and move them up for a turn, accepting the loss of one round of shots). But it still feels like a single Lion Chariot won't be enough (and will still be just of a liability against shooting lists, probably dropping in the first turn or two).

As far as the prince goes, your considering armor of the stars with his bow, correct (not a fighty version)? If you only want him for the speed bump, you could consider simply taking a noble with the armor, achieving the same thing, and then using the points to get the Lion Chariot you wanted. Might be a good compromise.

Overall, I'm at the same point in my list that you are. I've got these 300ish points I just can't figure what to do with and I've tested all of the standard combinations I can think of. Of them, the Knights feel the strongest, but not yet ideal. That leaves only the wacky to test, such as the Dragon on the Archmage; perhaps I'll give your armor of the stars a go as well.

Hope that helps!

Axiem


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:52 pm 
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@Shadeseraph - I haven't actually played Portal so any jokes were simply accidental. As for Life, I've considered it but came to the conclusion that its defensive nature is of secondary importance in this list. The thing is that the magic power is primarily offensive here - between Drain Magic and Shield of Saphery I believe I have what defense I need. The main problem with Life is its demand for good spell selection (see my initial Archmage setup and rationale).

As for the Prince being vulnerable to warmachine fire and spells - the option to use him as a speedbump is situational. I believe that mostly he will do this against armies like Warriors of Chaos, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts etc. As far as missile fire is concerned, he'll be invisible behind the unit he's blocking. Magic damage-wise, it's simply about evaluating potential spells and calculate the risk/reward. Even if he dies, he's saved me a turn. Granted, that's the worst possible outcome but it'll still give me another turn.

@Axiem - Armour of Stars also has the added benefit of giving me more shots - which is what this guy excels at. Even without the speedbump tactic - any enemies charging me in close combat will see the Prince elude their attempts at killing him, enabling him to fire upon more enemies before he gets back in the fight. Since they are the ones who will be wanting to charge me, this ensures that I will be able to cope with a vulnerable position since it's my turn next, meaning I can move and swap him in and out where I want him.

Minor question with Armour of Stars - what to spend the last 10 points at?

Looking forward to seeing some reports of your testing etc though, that is, provided you'll put them up :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:13 pm 
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Quote:
Just imagine this: a deathstar is about to charge my Archer bunker in Turn 3 (not an unlikely event) containing my Archmage and BSB. The Prince steps out, is subsequently charged, kills a couple and is teleported away after taking a wound. The unit is stuck in place. Now, come next turn around and it's my turn. If I'm lucky with the teleport, I can move normally, get in its way again, shoot them, and stand and shoot yet again when they charge the second time. Best thing? I will STILL BE ALIVE and able to perform the very same trick a THIRD time before he dies (if I even need to sacrifice him at all). Meanwhile, my Archers can back off, giving them some space (did I mention that they, too, can shoot while this is going on?). If I'm unlucky with the teleport, I can march him closer, move the Shadow mage out and use Lore attribute to swap.


I think this is a neat idea, that deserves some playtesting. My gut tells me the results will be very polarized - it will either succeed spectacularly or fail catastrophically. I could see the situation above playing out just like you say, or playing out something more like this:

Prince moves out, accepts a charge and stand and shoots. He does a couple wounds with his bolt thrower and the enemy challenges him with their champion. The champion fails to wound, and the prince gets beaten via. combat resolution, fails his break test and gets overrun.

The mage move is also risky, since it would leave the mage alone with his pants (dress?) down in the spot the prince used to be in. This could potentially lose you the Prince and a Level 2 Mage in one turn, which would be catastrophically bad.

Don't let those two scenarios dissuade you though, you may find that in actual games (since the armour is a random item, it's tough to predict its behaviour) it ends up playing out mostly in your favour.


I think the matchup I'm most interested to see is vs. an artillery based gunline with good magic defense - Empire or Dwarves mostly. I think this is going to present a great challenge for your list, and I'll be interested to see how you handle it.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:26 pm 
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For an opponent to charge my Prince and challenge him, he'd have to know that I'm sporting the Armour of Stars - otherwise this makes no sense what-so-ever. Provided this happens though, I will win the challenge by +3/+4 most of the time, which leaves my opponent winning by +1/2 (3 ranks, banner, charge). On LD10 with BSB nearby, this should be ok and I've still accomplished my goal. I can then swap him out in my magic phase if it's crucial or charge in to help him.

As for extreme cases and the random factor of this setup, it indeed can lead to bad things happening. However, I believe that overall it will fare very well and it's a rare situation indeed for me to end up with a hopeless position.

As for artillery and gunlines, I really can't be asked to play these until I've got a proper grip about how this army plays. I find them boring to play both with or against (the true gunlines that is). At some point though, I will have to face them. I'll be sure to keep you posted :)

PS - I have yet to schedule a 2500 point game for next week. Looks like it'll be a couple of 2250 games though, but we have a tournament coming up in 2 weeks time (which I intend to attend) and I'll be looking to get some 2500 point games before that. The tourney itself should be interesting, too!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Hey Curu,

I guess my only point is that he's an excellent tool for delaying/redirecting, but the stakes are extremely high. Whereas an eagle that falls victim to an outlying scenario is a 50 point loss, an outlying scenario with that prince is a huge hit to your side. Remember that for the cost of that prince, you could have 4 eagles, which could accomplish essentially the same goal, but with much more contained risk.

Against an unwitting opponent, you'll get one "suprise!" round, then the second round you can expect them to start enacting strategies like the one I mentioned.

Again I'll say that I'm definitely all for you trying this build out. I'm just trying to be realistic about the limitations - the more things your plan relies on, the easier it is for your enemy to interrupt it. Remember Murphy's Law; anything that can go wrong will go wrong - it's just a matter of how much you want to put on the line.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for artillery and gunlines, I really can't be asked to play these until I've got a proper grip about how this army plays. I find them boring to play both with or against (the true gunlines that is). At some point though, I will have to face them. I'll be sure to keep you posted :)


I can ask, it doesn't mean you need to indulge me :P I'm just interested in general to see you put this list to the test - I like the way it's shaping up. I totally agree about the nature of gunline lists (yawn), however, the fact is that people play them so you're bound to run in to one eventually.

Good luck in the upcoming matches!

D

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Yeah I reckon Mr Murphy is going to visit me time and again. However, 2+ armour save can equally well fail me (even more so!) when needed. The randomness can of course make it harder to handle. Can't wait to play this :D

So - for my campaign games next week I'm probably playing 2250. I think I'll simply drop the Prince but wanted to double-check with you all: is there any other reasonable choice for a 2250 point list but to drop the Prince?

Cheers,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:29 pm 
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So I went by GW today, hoping to add some models to my collection. With my sudden change of list focus, I'm way short of infantry. I bought one box of Archers and one box of White Lions, as well as a second Repeater.

I intend to use the White Lions from the Island of Blood chariot as unit fillers. I have some ancient Lions as well (4th edition I believe, might be 5th though) so maybe this could be enough for my units.

Anyways, I also needed new conversions for my Prince and BSB since they're both going to be carrying a bow from now on. The pictures can be seen below (both were made with parts from the 3 boxes I bought):

:: Prince Saerith (on foot) ::

Image

Image

Image

:: BSB Naenor (on foot) ::

Image

Image

Image

This list is suddenly turning out to be pretty Chrace-oriented ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Time for some army shots! I've spent quite a few hours over the last few days glueing all these new models together. Since my list took a drastic turn from the cavalry focus, a lot more infantry was needed.

Unfortunately, a great amount of this army has yet to be painted. I'm hoping to at least get a couple of basecoat layers on most of them before the tourney in 2 weeks time. For now though, you'll have to settle with the conversions etc I've made ;)

:: Army Shot ::

Image

A few things about this picture:
- No unit is out-of-the-box ordinary. Everyone has at least a slight conversion/twist to make them unique. This was important to me as I'm tired of the ordinary models (remember, I used to have an 8k army which is now gathering dust at my mom's place) and wanted something different.
- The footprint my ranged units leave is pretty big. This could indeed be a challenge ingame with regards to deployment and flexibility. As I'm at the bare minimum which my core allows though I don't see any utility gained in dropping a unit and including Spearelves.
- Command elements from the Swordmasters and Spearelves have been included in these units. This was simply because I had no more parts to make new models! Additionally, I kind of like the diversity this creates. As command models are rather unordinary to begin with, I believe this won't look too weird.

:: Old-school White Lions ::

Image

I'm not sure just how old these models are. I really like their style though and I believe that once I have everything painted up they'll look a lot more at home. I included a Lion from the Island of Blood set as a unit filler. This is something I picked up months back in a really cool Chrace-themed army.

:: New White Lions ::

Image

These new plastic Lions were a real pain to assemble! The upside is that the parts allowed for some really cool conversion (I'm very happy with how Prince Saerith on foot turned out) but trust me when I say it took a long time getting these arms right. Like the old Lions, these also got a White Lion for a unit filler, along with the Lion statues.

:: The New Curu Olannon ::

Image

As my main guy is no longer sporting the Seerstaff, I decided to give him a new model. I simply took the Island of Blood mage and cut off his staff. Furthermore, I noticed the staff contained a small ball - a perfect way to represent the Crystal! Additionally, this model, without the staff, looks like he's holding his hand towards his head - real Xavier style (and we all know how awesome he is)!

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Excellent white lion/archers kit bash.

Quote:
These new plastic Lions were a real pain to assemble


Ha, so i am not the only one who had trouble with them.
But yeah, the left overs are great for conversions. I used the whitelion heads for my dragon princes.

btw why are you referring to the island of blood chariot and lion?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Thanks! The rest of the Archers (i.e. the normal ones) are mostly from the Spearelves/Archer kits, with some small parts from the Helms and Island of Blood.

The Island of Blood chariot can be drawn by either 2 steeds or 2 White Lions. I glued together the 2 White Lions who were supposed to be pulling this chariot and used them as unit fillers - one each for each unit of White Lions ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:14 am 
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Except that there is no chariot in the Island of Blood set. I think you mean the Battalion Box, which does have a chariot.

The old WL models can be from the 5th edition. I know that at least they made an appearance in the 5th edition army book. Which gives them a big chance of being around in 4th edition as well. I like them. They look nice and cute next to the current ones. ;)

Thanks for the army shots. I love seeing all those models together, even if they're not all painted. The little details in each unit makes them look unique.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Ah ok well I bought the battalion box, too. Probably got that all mixed up ;)

I've now coated all mini's in chaos black (thank you very much, spray can!) and started painting the most 'vital' parts for a model to look semi-decent (skin, helmets etc). A couple of the local players, myself included, will have a couple of painting workshops before the tournament. Hopefully I can use these hours well and paint the majority of the army with basic coats.

So - I got a practice game tomorrow. My opponent will be bringing a rather tough list. Last time I checked, he wasn't sure whether to go MSU Slann Lizards or Bloodknightbus VC. He asked what list I'd rather face since he wanted to test the 'least viable one' and I replied VC. MSU Lizards with a Slann bunker just has so many tricks up its sleeve. A dead-on cavalry bus on the other hand can be redirected, Starstruck (pun intended!) and decimated heavily by my magic and shooting.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out, regardless of what he brings. I consider my game vs rusty a proper baptism of fire. As such, I hope I can play (and DEPLOY) better than I did last time.

I'm not 100% sure that I can get a report up by tomorrow night, but I'll do my best :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:08 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I consider my game vs rusty a proper baptism of fire.


I'll bring 12 flamers if that's what your'e hinting at, no problem :wink:

I'm considering several armies for our game, your pick:
-Daemons of Slaanesh
-Damons of Nurgle/tzeentch
-TK Khalida archer horde
-Vampire Ghoul/Grave guard horde, with an actual survivable general

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Hi Curu,

I have been following your army evolution with great interest and really love the way the army has changed in recent weeks.

I am a fairly new player (returning after a 10 year absence) and have only played a couple of games but am looking to grow my army into a list that works in a very similar way to your own.

I am currently playing at 1,500 points and would really appreciate your views on how the list would scale down to these points levels. I am finding I am having to make tough choices and the loss of a lvl2 mage with shadow at 1500 points could potentially hurt against armies like chaos warriors and demons.

I have attached the link to my thread below with the current list and a first battle report with it and would appreciate any thoughts you may have.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=37117

Regards,

Sirgilly


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:57 pm 
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@rusty - Why aren't you bringing Wood Elves to Hexcon? I suggest you take the kind of list you tend to field there ;)

@Sirgilly - I haven't played a lot with this army yet (at all!) so I still have a long way to go before settling in on how I want it. I'll have a look at your thread and share my thoughts though :)

I just finished my game against Iniesta. Long story short, it was interesting. What's that you say, you want the whole story? Ok, here's the battle report ;)

:: Knights of the Apocalypse ::

My list was the usual magic-shooting synergy.

Iniesta's list:

Vampire Lord +Wounds regained blade, Nightshroud, Hatredpowerthingy, barded steed, power stone
Vampire Hero ghoulkin, flying steed, +T potion, save magic dice
Wight BSB - Drakenhoff
Necromancer, dispel scroll

30 Ghouls, champ
52 Ghouls, champ

5 Dire Wolves
7 Dire Wolves

4 Bats

10 Blood Knights, full command

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

We decided to play everything as if it were like the upcoming tournament. This meant the relevant scenarios were:
- Battleline
- Blood and Glory (the first one to break the other gets +800 VP: game goes on)
- Meeting Engagement
- Dawn Attack

We randomed Blood and Glory and I won the roll-off to deploy first.

Magic: He got 1,2,3 for his Vampire Lord and 5 for his Vampire Hero. I got 1,2,3,6 for Olannon. Great, courage is useless and I can't even swap it for Saphery since I already have it. Oh well, spell selection with a standard level 4 isn't that great and this is something I should know fairly well.

Deployment went like this:

- Eagle
+ Bats
- Archers on hill
+ Dire Wolves
- RBT on either side of hill
+ Small ghouls

At this point I knew his cavalry would either go on his right flank, with the Ghoul Horde centre, or the other way around. I decided that I wanted to stay away from his cavalry bus for as long as possible, feeding it cheap stuff and taking out the rest of his army in the meantime.

The rest went down according to this (ghoulkin move included):

Image

Note: his characters were deployed like this
- Lord in Bus
- Flying hero in Bus
- BSB in Bus
- Necro with small Ghouls

:: Vampire Counts Turn 1 ::

His right Ghouls charge, I flee. The rest move up.

Magic is box cars, leaving it 11v7. He starts off with Snakeeyes Vanhels from his Lord. I dispel the rest of his phase and he saves one dice with a magic item.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Again, I find myself in a position I do not like a whole lot: the blocking Dire Wolves mean I can't properly use my Eagle while the scenario + him getting first turn means he's way too close for comfort. I need good magic power and some luck to reduce him enough, fast enough.

I charge my big lions (the western unit) at his small ghouls, hoping to kill necromancer and tie him up. They fail their charge though, as I roll very poorly (needed 6+ on 2D6, rolled 3). The other Lions rally. The Eagle moves to block a direct Bloodknights charge, however due to his Wolves blocking me and his flying lord being on that corner, it's not 100% successful (only block a full-on charge on my Lions).

Magic - I roll a 5 and a 1. I fail to channel with either mage and the Banner of Sorcery gives me +1. Because he saved a dice it's now 7v6. I start off with a 3D6 Vaul's on his Bus, hoping to draw out the scroll so my next phase at least can give me full power. The Dice Gods are unwilling though, as I score a total of 5. I spend the remaining 4 dice on The Withering, scoring a total of 8.

Shooting - I decide to follow through with my original plan and reduce his Ghouls. I also decided to target his blocking Dire Wolves as they're so mobile he can have them wherever he wants to. The result is 5/7 wolves dead and ~8 Ghouls dropped from both units. Not too shabby, let's see what next turn brings!

Note: I forgot to move the Eagle in the diagram, he's moved in the next VC turn.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 2 ::

Lots of charges: his Wolves go against my Lions. I have to move backwards to maximize so this is a pretty decent move. The ghouls again fail to charge my Lions on the Eastern front (needing 11+). The other Ghouls fail at charging my Archmage's archers, losing 1 to stand and shoot. His bats engage a Repeater while his flying hero jumps out of the bus to engage the other Repeater.

With the flying hero gone, my Eagle isn't blocking him properly anymore, even with the 1" rule. As such he marches past it to within 8" of my Prince's unit. The remaining 2 wolves marched to block my White Lions, angling themselves pretty smart.

Magic is 10v6 after he channels one and has one saved, after a 5-4 roll. Now, here's my point about impossible to defend against: he casts Vanhels on 2D6 with his Lord until I fail to dispel. The ensuing stand and shoot drops a single knight. No more magic gets through, he saves a dice.

Combat is brutal - Prince accepts the Lord duel (huge mistake, I could've activated Loec and targeted his BSB) only for him to reveal Nightshroud (removes ASF, reduced I to 1). My unit dies, the Prince teleports away to behind the big Archers. The repeaters are both killed. All units overrun off the table. The Lions kill the flanking Hounds.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I charge my Lions at his Wolves while my Archmage's unit go against his Ghouls. The Prince joins the big unit, hoping to whittle it down before they charge my Lions (the plan was to annihilate them in my turn 3, breaking the small ghouls this turn).

Magic is relatively uneventful, I get Shield through on my Archers.

Shooting sees him lose 7 Ghouls after my Prince fails to kill the first one and the rest roll somewhat poor.

Combat - I resolve the Lions first and they kill the dogs easily. The overrun brings me into contact with the impassable terrain, leaving me unable to assist the Archers. Obviously, they lose big. The unit fails its break test.

At this point, I concede the game.

Note: forgot to move Eastern Ghouls in the last picture so their movement is included here.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

As I conceded it was a massacre to the Vampire Counts!

:: Evaluation ::

Honestly, I don't know what I could've done differently here. A few mistakes here and there didn't exactly help me out (e.g. the Prince not targetting his BSB) but in general, I felt hopeless.

As such, this is my shortest evaluation thus far. I'm very open to all ideas, whether it be list improvements, movement, priorities or whatever.

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Some minor misses in the report. B.knights were 9, ghouls 36. And i needed a 9+ to charge your white lions again in turn two.
Biggest problem with your setup with white lions on either flank was you were leaving middle too open, and only an eagle to play with. I think your list need a bit more to divert with, not just againt my list but in general. I had multicasting of vanhels to play with and even a powerstone on my lord that i didnt need to use.
Ill give you you had bad luck with scenario, as it didnt make it easier as it is deployment nearer you. Also i shouldnt be able to charge your bolters with my wastable chaff in turn two, as they should be deployed slightly behind not in front of your archers :-) That should be removed over kiling some ghouls as you had no chance taking them down enough before i was close when i got first turn.
Wasnt to happy about my playing either as it was sloppy to expose characters to your lord in base contact. You could have killed my bsb if you gave your casterhero away.
In my opinion i think your previous cavlist is more allround as it has more cc to play with and costly bs shooting is only soo good against armies with speed, scouts, lots uf numbers, a lot of wm /and magic themselves. But i find you a wery good player and wasnt sure about the way things were going until it was over. You even convinced me to keep my HE army after i decided to sell it :-) But then again i got a lot of armies :-)
Im not sure your list is wery pointdenial, as in the comming tournament its all about winning with 100+ points and this was a test of this. i think a lot of armies potentially can kill substantial points of your army and thats gonna make the tournament for you a bit steep(?) But its not certain. would you consider chosing the -3 ld death spell as it can have great synergy with them shots being more effective against a lot of opponents? You also can chose another deathspell to complement it depending of who you meet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:46 pm 
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You deployed too far forward. There is no reason for the RBTs to be off the table edge, and the archers should be near there as well. Ghoulkin is going to bring targets into range, even if you go first.

I think you picked the wrong side as well, since the hill split your deployment. What were the rocks on the other side? Particularly the hill split your shooting in half, meaning you did insufficient damage to both ghoul units. If anything, RBT positioning made this even worse, since they could not both hit the same target.

You had the drop advantage, and didn't use it. After the first drops you detail, you can throw down your other archer units and then get your main stuff into a corner away from the bus. This also shows the problem of a shooting army without enough Eagles. Another drop would have helped you, and another diverter would have helped a lot.


Curu Olannon wrote:
With the flying hero gone, my Eagle isn't blocking him properly anymore, even with the 1" rule.
I don't understand this statement. The flying hero has no affect on the width of the unit. If the Eagle blocked his movement with the character there, the unit is still blocked without the character.


Why try and draw a scroll with Vauls? Just cast it with 6 dice and poof the Drakenhoff Banner. Or poof some nasty toy on the Vampire Lord, but the Drakenhoff is predictable in a bus like that, and removing it changes the game. Remove the banner and then your big magic bows can shoot into the bus. Heavy cavalry do not like Seafarer!

Shooting his Dire Wolves was a mistake. Park your Eagle in front of them, and let his own unit of wolves block the knight bus. If your general and BSB stay close, the Eagle should easily hold against the wolves. Eagle actually has a good chance to win combat after the charge, since you average almost 1.5 total wounds a round (including stomp) and they only average .67 on you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:03 pm 
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I didn`t realise it at the time, but i should actually not have been able to not replace the spot in the characters place.
ops that was unintentional.
But i think i would have gotten to the spot anyway with a swift reform on rerollable 10 and7" forward as i wasent close to going full speed with my double wheel with the bus past the eagle.
And i totally agree with dabber that your list needs to deploy further back. If you break with them archers you are mostly doomed anyway. Its probalby a hangup from your previous lists when archers sometimes goes fighting. Archers need all the time they can get shooting.
And he wasent able to spread his deployment to the corners as blood and glory is 9" deployment from short boardedges. i really only had 3 notable units and with a deploymentadvantage you should set up a bit different, especially as i got van hels on my lord.. With all the archers and bt in middle it was to far apart between them WL.


Last edited by Iniesta on Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Hi Curu,

It was enjoyable to read the report and they are always appreciated. It's rough when your your opponent keeps pulling aces in his magic phase and you get the dregs, I had the same thing last weekend.

I can't find fault with the deployment or strategy as such, but a couple of missed opportunities to use one of your army's unique assets, the Houdini prince (with the armor of stars).

I really like the idea of the armor of stars prince, and to be honest I saw a cav bus like this as his perfect match.

In your turn 1 you potentially could have advanced the prince forward to block the cav bus from hitting your lines for a turn. In combat he would simply teleport away after the first wound, leaving the cav bus sitting in front of your army for a turn. Depending on where Houdini lands you can do the same again to keep frustrating the vampires while you destroy the rest of the army. I think the best thing about the prince is he does not need to try and sit on the side of a unit for a redirect, where the enemy can play it clever to avoid as he did, but he can stand dead centre and stop an opponent in their tracks.

The failed block with the great eagle is a shame, but characters can sometimes be tricky with reforms and vanhels is hard to counter with the usual redirects.

Another option I would have considered is not shooting the direwolves but shooting the bats which were a real threat to the small archers and artillery. The direwolves were creating a close screen in front of the Blood knights which gave him cover but could also be played to your advantage.

If the wolves remained a full rank (unharmed) then potentially a well placed eagle could have redirected the wolves and blocked the blood knights in one turn which would have been funny. If this does fail the prince can be used as a backstop to prevent the knights getting through, or used to slow him down on the next turn. If successful this could have destroyed the bats and held up the direwolves and blood knights, which would have freed the left hand white lions up for carnage on the ghouls turn 2.

I am fairly new to the game so my logic may be slightly off based on getting the details of rules wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:16 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Shooting his Dire Wolves was a mistake. Park your Eagle in front of them, and let his own unit of wolves block the knight bus. If your general and BSB stay close, the Eagle should easily hold against the wolves. Eagle actually has a good chance to win combat after the charge, since you average almost 1.5 total wounds a round (including stomp) and they only average .67 on you.

I was worried that I was talking bollocks until I saw you said the same thing. Either I am starting to finally learn something or we are both mad...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:18 pm 
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I agree with Dabber here. I view the whole concept of a shooting-heavy approach with skepticism, which I feel was demonstrated here a bit. We invest major points in Always Strikes First; we pay through the nose on it for all our Elven models, but with a focus on shooting, that potential's going to waste. I do think that shooting has a key place in every High Elf list, but I think that relying on archer fire against Vamp Counts won't carry you far. I think this is especially true, as Dabber mentioned, when you don't have enough drops and redirectors to gain complete mastery of deployment.

I also noticed that you took the Prince with the snazzy armor of teleporting. Wasn't stalling/redirecting the entire purpose of taking that armor to begin with? I guess if you find yourself using the Prince for other purposes, like shooting, then his secondary role of redirecting is going to be compromised since he can't really do both roles at once.

Also, I feel your pain with Vanhels, but it really can't be helped. You just have to accept it as a reality every turn, and try to be as decisive as possible in your own turn so that Vanhels can't change the shape of the battlefield too heavily. You might consider Sigil of Asuryan too...

Lastly, I feel that the flank deployment of your White Lions is really hindering your ability to protect your shooting line. I think it's good in theory, since you can pinch an opponent coming up the middle, but how often do you get to actually execute that plan?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:39 pm 
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How will this army deal with hordes that has plenty models and even shooting themselves? Skaven with 2/3 50-100 slaves + 3 scout units and a lot of other expendable stuff. or o/g with warmashines, plenty ng and other chaff(well im probalbly only 1 in that 200+ ngcathegory in our city and im not playing them now this tourney). Will you shoot enough before its at you? Does it suit comptourneys with max unitsizes better? How will it fare against the common dwarf list, or empire?
I think your list is a bit lacking in magical defence as well and there will be several DE lists with probably daggers for more powerdice in them all. But maybe DE wont be to hard with your setup and given i got a bit more lucky than you with winds your list is probably not an easy list to conquer for any1. And it might work swell against deamons, and i would love that they get some run for their money :-)
I think your list will steamroll all kinds of lists OK can field, and i "know" there will be several as the army is new and several in our neigborhood have just bought it. And it should deal easily enough with WOC.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:16 pm 
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I thought a bit more about how the game itself unfolded, and I think that actually charging the Eagle into Wolves screening the Blood Knights would have been a good move. It would have created a fairly tremendous roadblock, and while I can't see the specifics of the movement there, it would have at least prompted a turn of quick reform/Vanhels just for the Blood Knights to get around it.

That would have been a small step, but really I think this game was largely decided once deployment was over. Even hardened High Elf combat lists still need to load up a flank, so that our small, fragile combat units can provide mutual support and hope to overwhelm a niche of the board before going after other threats. Here, with the only decent combat units on opposite ends of the board, and all your units centrally placed, I really don't know if there's much you could have done differently to seriously alter the outcome here.


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