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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:51 am 
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Good win :)

Actually, his army IS illegal :P There's no provision for slaughtermasters or butchers to take big names (mawseeker, +1T) I believe. Only allowed for tyrants/bruisers.

Another thing to watch out for, which it doesn't seem like he tried, is bonecruncher (2D6 S2 hits w no armour save). Deadly to your SH bus/DPs. Did he not attempt it at any point? Seemed like he was in range around turn 2/3 without your cavalry being in combat.

Should be wary there, statistically speaking his tyrant with tenderizer should have pulped your prince (average 1.85 wounds done/turn vs your 1.58 wounds done) given the equipment loadout, buffs not accounted for. Throw in regen/+S or +T buffs and the odds are worse. Well balances out the loss of your AM ;)

Was he packing runemaw? A moot point given that dwellers went after the bulls and your AM went poof after that, just wondering...


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:20 pm 
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I just played again vs Skaven. This was kind of a rematch for my opponent whom I played my very first game in 8th against (750 points). It was a very exciting game and kind of felt like old-time Warhammer.

:: The Rulers of the Underworld ::

So my third game at 2500 points. Could I continue my streak or would the rats see my Vindicators fall short? His list was very Skryre themed. While not the hardest list around, I'd say it was fairly decent.

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell
BSB, Storm Banner
both in
- 50 Clanrats, Standard and musician
+ Warpfire Thrower Team
Warlock Engineer - stuff
in
- 30 Clanrats, Standard and musician
+ Warpfire Thrower Team
30 Clanrats, Standard and musician
+ Warpfire Thrower Team
80 Slaves
6 Rat Ogres, 2 packmasters
1 Hell Pit Abomination
1 Doomwheel

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I knew my infantry could carve through his units like knife through butter. I only had to worry about magic and shooting first... He rolled plague for his Grey Seer, the rest of the spells were inefficient throughout the game and I can't really remember them to be honest (I don't know Skaven too well). I was hoping I could field a strong cavalry flank against his monsters to quickly take out the heavy hitters. As for his war machines, archers and the repeater had weapons team duty while I'd try to weather the Doomwheel.

We rolled battle for the pass, he wanted me to choose side. I chose the hill for my repeater. As usual, I deployed rares first. He committed to the center and I placed archers to the left, intending to face his heavy hitters with my cavalry. The deployment went beautifully and I was quite happy: he was crammed in the middle, my left flank was weak but pointless to attack and I had both cavalry hammers against the units I wanted them to face. Additionally, his bell was quite far behind so I didn't have to worry before I could get into position.

Image

He won the roll-off and went first.

:: Skryre Skaven Turn 1 ::

He realized his Doomwheel was doing next to nothing so wanted to move it towards the middle. However, it had to move first due to random movement and he didn't dare face a low roll and slow his advance. Instead, it went behind his Clanrats, getting dangerously close to the Cannon...

The rest of his forces advanced, his Abomination only rolling 5" on 3D6. The Rat Ogres followed suit, protecting its flank.

Magic started and he rolled fairly well, however was out of range of most things useful. He started off with a useless buff on his Ogres (which would only last throughout HIS turn) and miscast on 3D6, killing a couple of Clanrats with a S10 template but saving the Grey Seer and the Bell on 4+ ward. His Warlock casts Warp Lightning on my Spears with the remaining 6 dice. His cast is mediocre and I pick up my 5 dice to dispel - which I promptly fail. 7 Spearelves die but they pass the panic test.

Shooting is eventful - but not in the sense he'd hope. One Cannon kills a single archer, the other misfires and kills 2 Clanrats from the Bell unit, the Warpfire Thrower Team and 5 more Clanrats from the other Clanrat unit. Adding insult to injury, his Doomwheel fails its restrain roll (on an 8) and kills the nearby Cannon!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I advance with my Cavarly, the center standing still. They take care to keep a reasonable distance to avoid a charge. The Swordmasters free reform to let the Silver Helms through. The Archmage's Archers shuffle back a bit and the Eagles get into position.

Magic is 7 vs 4 dice. Throne is first, with him dispelling on 2v2 dice. Flesh to Stone on Spearelves is next, he lets it through due to my 10 roll on 2D6. The last 3 dice sees regrowth go through his dispel attempt, however I roll a 1 and only 2 Spearelves rise from the grave.

My Repeater kills the Warpfire Thrower Team between his Rat Ogres and Abomination, saving my cavalry a lot of potential trouble. The Archers can't see the last weapon team so kills a couple of Clanrats instead.

Image

:: Skryre Skaven Turn 2 ::

Full speed ahead! No charges, but LOTS of movement.

Magic is 5 v 4. He rings his Bell on a 17 roll, sending the Slaves 6" further ahead and the Doomwheel advances 3" further. He eats a Warpstone Token to cast 13th on Swordmasters on 6 dice, however a poor roll quickly ends the magic phase, allowing my pulse to go beneath 170 again. His Grey Seer also took a wound from the Token, his 4+ ward failing to aid him.

Shooting sees his Cannon kill 3 Helms while the Doomwheel restrains. I'm in position to kill a few monsters with my Cavalry and grind some Slaves with my infantry. So far, so good!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

He declares Storm Banner on his BSB.

I quickly do the math on the Abomination and I realize it's fairly certain that I'll kill it in a single round of combat with the Dragon Princes. I declare Potion of Strength regardless as I doubt I'll need it that much and I REALLY need to kill it off before it goes berserk in return. The Cavalry units declare cross-charges and the monsters all hold. Swordmasters, Spearelves and Great Eagle all charge Slaves, who hold. They all make their roll, and it's game on!

Magic is 6 v 4. I start with a 2-die Throne, getting a total of 8. He fails to dispel on 2D6! I then cast Flesh to Stone on Swordmasters but a miserable roll sees him dispel on his remaining 2 dice. Argh!

Shooting kills a couple of clanrats again, his weapon team still out of Line of Sight.

In combat my Cavalry go into kill-mode, the Dragon Princes easily killing the Abomination outright (I think I scored 10-11 wounds) and the Silver Helms felling 3 Rat Ogres before they can strike back. In return, a couple of Helms die but they break easily and are run down. The Dragon Princes decide to overrun, but end up with a poor 2" move - meaning the Clanrats with the Warlock Engineer have a perfect flank charge. Sigh, I needed 4+ to avoid that angle.

In the middle, Elves do what they do best and something like 23 Slaves die. In return he rolls very poorly and only a couple of Elves die. However, it's enough to break my rank to disable his Steadfast and they hold on LD10. At this rate the unit will not be around very long though.

Image

:: Skryre Skaven Turn 3 ::

Storm runs out.

His Clanrats flank my Dragon Princes, who hold. His other Clanrats charge my Archers, who stand and shoot to kill a couple. Magic is 7 vs 6 dice. He uses 6 + his remaining Warpstone Token to cast 13th at my Swordmasters. However, he again fails to meet the required 25+! My 6 dispel dice dispels his 1-die buff and the magic phase ends.

Shooting sees a perfect shot for the Warpfire Thrower Team AND his Cannon on my Helms. He starts off with a glorious exploding misfired Warpfire Thrower before his Cannon kills a single Helm, bringing them down to 3 + Saerith.

In combat his Clanrats lose 4 to my Archers. In return, they only kill 1 (only 10 attacks due to charging, still poor rolls). This means it's a tie which he wins due to musician. My Archers hold due to Naenor being nearby.

His other Clanrats fail to impress my Dragon Princes but I can't hurt him much either. I lose by 3 but barely hold! I even manage my combat reform!

In the middle I again kill something around 20-25 Slaves and he kills a couple of Spearelves and Swordmasters in return. This time around he doesn't have Steadfast and the Slaves explode, killing a couple more. My Swordmasters reform to a single line, intending to wreak havoc on the Bell unit.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I charge his Clanrats with my Spearelves and Swordmasters, however the Swordmasters roll snake eyes for the distance. Oh well, Naenor and his comrades would have to prove their worth.

In my magic phase I roll 11 for Winds of Magic. I had every unit engaged so Dwellers was useless. Oh well, I started off with an IF Flesh to Stone on my Spearelves. The Throne did NOT protect Olannon from miscast and he lost a level, forgot Flesh to Stone, and the magic phase ended. Still, 2 combat rounds of T7 against his Clanrats ought to do it.

Shooting sees 3 wounds on his Doomwheel after a single bolt hits. It goes out of control and charges my Eagle.

In combat he kills the Eagle and overruns. The Archers beat the Clanrats, who pass their break test barely. The Dragon Princes kill his Warlock and enough to win, however he holds on Steadfast LD10.

Naenor targets the Grey Seer and wounds on 2 attacks. He fails both ward saves and dies. My Spears kill quite a few Clanrats, losing only 1 in return thanks to T7.

Image

After this it was pretty much over. He didn't manage anything significant in his phase. I proceeded to charge my Helms into his Bell unit and the Swordmasters killed the Doomwheel. He conceeded the game at the start of his Turn 5. At this point, his 2 units of 30 Clanrats were both reduced to 3 fleeing models while his Bell unit was down to 20-25 Clanrats against 15 Spearelves, 3 Silver Helms and Saerith and Naenor.

:: Victory Points ::

I didn't bother calculating - it was a clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

This game was a lot of fun due to the fact that magic never made a huge impact. This made it feel like the older editions where magic would amplify certain parts of the game instead of making or breaking it. My opponent was rather unlucky in a lot of important fights. However, deployment and movement saw him lose 2 flanks very quickly and he would've had a hard time regardless. I got my perfect matchup and was able to engage when and where I wanted to, again utilizing my superior movement to achieve this.

Keeping his magic and shooting at bay (read: being lucky he didn't roll better) certainly helped. I never once tried to cast Dwellers this game and the rest of the spells were fairly irrelevant. Granted, T7 Spearelves at the end helped but his Grey Seer would've died regardless. I doubt it would've changed anything.

I'm certain you all have a lot of thoughts about this game. It seems to me that I use certain patterns again and again in my playstyle, would you agree with this? Please leave a reply with your thoughts about the fight as I'm eager to hear the opinions of others as well as analyzing myself.

One thing is sure though, I love the 2 Cavalry Hammers. They are both incredibly powerful, and having 20 2+ save models with 8" movement is not to be underestimated.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Thanks for this Curu, fourm's been a bit quiet lately!

Curu Olannon wrote:
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell

I get the feeling this is less popular than the naked Seer but it has it's points.

Curu Olannon wrote:
6 Rat Ogres, 2 packmasters

A bit of a soft pick I think but a nice one! They certainly don't like elf cavalry though.

Curu Olannon wrote:
He rolled plague for his Grey Seer, the rest of the spells were inefficient throughout the game and I can't really remember them to be honest (I don't know Skaven too well).

Plague's great against your cavalry but it looks like he got too keen on Dreaded 13th in this game. Did he roll any spells on the Ruin lore?

As you say, you got the match-ups you wanted, looks like you out-deployed him here. I wonder whether he'd have been better off with a few more disposable units. Did his Warlock Engineer not bring the Doomrocket? Maybe he needed one of his wonder weapons to get him back in the game but it didn't happen!

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:14 am 
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Great game Curu!

As both a high elf and skaven player myself, this game was very interesting to read for me.

Deployment in this game played, in my opinion, the most determining factor in your victory. He had some extremely potent answers for a lot of your units, however your deployment prevented them. For example:

    The Doomwheel presented a serious threat to your heavy cavalry, but your refused flank deployment prevented him from bringing it to bear

    Similarly, Plague presented a problem for your big blocks, however you managed to force him to deploy the block of clanrats with the bell towards the back - usually this unit is a very strong (unbreakable) anchor to the skaven line.

    The rat ogres put out a punishing amount of attacks, so your cavalry offered the survivability and hitting power needed to neutralize this threat

    The hellpit met a similar fate, unable to face a head on charge from a unit of Dragon Princes.

Well done! Deploying in such a way to give you this much of an advantage is no small task, given the scenario. Having said that, the skaven player also left quite a few opportunities open for you, so below are some things to watch out for versus skaven in the future.

A little feedback for your opponent:

    When facing any opponent with high volume shooting, weapons teams are more of a liability than anything, with the exception being the poison wind mortar due to its ability to hide behind its parent unit. With only 1 wound and being 70 points a pop, the warpfire throwers essentially have a giant bulls-eye on them from the get-go

    Storm banner and a shooting based skryre army seems a bit counter-intuitive, given the chance that it will affect your own shooting in the same way the next turn. I'd leave it at home, since you should rule this phase.

    Slaves have such low quality attacks, that I generally favour extra ranks over wide deployment for horde attacks. They're not there to do damage in my eyes, rather, to absorb damage and stall an advance. Having such a wide base allowed a combo charge that proved devastating, even to a unit 80 strong.

    Plague will often do as much, if not more damage to low toughness troops like elves than the thirteenth for nearly half (!!!) the casting cost

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:07 am 
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Hi Curu!

Nice report again! I really love how you outdeployed your opponent. He really got unlucky on loads of occassions, but even then I think you did a wonderful job in dissecting his battleline and concentrating your forces where you needed them.

I really think you did a good job, outmaneuvring him on such a small board. Your use of Dragon Princes and Silver Helms is great. Destroying and overrung the HPA and the Rat Ogres would leave his clanrats with empty hand, while his force on the other flank advanced unsupported. This led to a for him uncontrollable and concentrated charge on your part. We also noticed this in your kholek experience.

Do you really think the lore of life is a must in your army? Only the Kholek game was really convincing :) .

This is exactly how I am planning to use my army :D . I think you really control the flows of your army right now and I like that.

I am working with your program right now, though it is still acradabra :D .
I faced Orcs 'n' Goblins again,

Horde of Biguns, unit of 8 Trolls, Big spider, double mangler squiq and lots and lots of night goblins :P.........and I won :D . Mangler's dont like spirit leech and eagles and my Dragon Princes eat spiders for breakfast :P . The Horde was broken in a similar fashion you did on the slaves :) .

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:41 am 
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Thanks for the feedback ;)

huesofblue wrote:

Another thing to watch out for, which it doesn't seem like he tried, is bonecruncher (2D6 S2 hits w no armour save). Deadly to your SH bus/DPs. Did he not attempt it at any point? Seemed like he was in range around turn 2/3 without your cavalry being in combat.

Was he packing runemaw? A moot point given that dwellers went after the bulls and your AM went poof after that, just wondering...


He cast it once and killed a single Helm or something like that. He still needs to wound on 5+. Runemaw - I don't know. What does it do?

@SpellArcher - It's been quiet. I suppose it's mostly due to exams etc. Speaking of quiet though, I haven't seen your army thread be active in a little while. Any chance of some development / playtesting soon?

As for plague, he didn't really ever have a good opportunity with it, seeing as he was too far away when it would've mattered. He rolled a couple of spells from Ruin but can't remember which since they never made an impact. His Warlock Engineer did not have the Doomrocket as far as I know.

@Brewmaster_D - my army has several flexible units to deploy, meaning I can almost always force an army to commit before placing my combat units of choice. I believe this is very hard to counter, with the current meta-game meaning people usually have few drops. The downside is, of course, that I frequently get to act second. I'm sure my opponent will appreciate the feedback :)

@Flame of the Asuryan - I've been reconsidering Lore of Life lately. In this game it didn't really play a big part, but winds were generally low for both sides and my rolls were poor as well so I doubt any Lore would've made an impact. The thing is that Life is extremely flexible and provides some cheap insurance against Deathstars and the likes - units I will surely meet at some point. I've been considering Shadow, High and Metal, of which the latter appeals the most: Seering Doom takes care of tough stuff, Robe provides some anti-shooting, Blades provide a damage boost and finally Transmutation is about as good as Dwellers (in the cases where I need it the most - longer range and 5+ vs S4 for Dwellers). I know you're running Death but what would you suggest for me?

Battle Chronicler can be somewhat hard to use the first game or two but you'll quickly get the hang of it. Looking forward to the report!

I'm hoping to get a game on Wednesday, not sure if I'll have an opponent yet. Next Monday I have an exam so probably won't play on Sunday.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:11 am 
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2D6 S2 is about 2.3 kills on average I think. So worth casting but shouldn't stop a cavalry bus dead. Rune maw is the standard that lets you re-direct a spell you've been hit with onto a friendly unit isn't it?

Curu Olannon wrote:
@SpellArcher - It's been quiet. I suppose it's mostly due to exams etc. Speaking of quiet though, I haven't seen your army thread be active in a little while. Any chance of some development / playtesting soon?

I can't play right now due to domestic issues. As my figures are very old I've been converting up and painting Spears to increase the size of my unit. Then I have to convert up some old Wardancer figures into White Lions (the figs will not do for Swordmasters!). I'm pondering re-jigging my magic items too.

What I will probably do is necro the thread when I'm playing again and analyse any changes to the army list then.

Curu Olannon wrote:
He rolled a couple of spells from Ruin but can't remember which since they never made an impact.

I suspect it's best to roll all his spells on one of the two Lores, then he has more chances of getting what he's after. Ruin I love it's a great multi-purpose Lore but Plague seems to have been the spell he needed against your army. I didn't used to rate Plague Lore at all due to the short ranged spells but with fewer dispel scrolls now maybe he can afford a quiet first phase in order to blitz his opponent later.

Curu Olannon wrote:
His Warlock Engineer did not have the Doomrocket as far as I know.

Unusual. It's a bit hit and miss but when it works it's lethal.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:57 am 
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But 2.3 kills on average per cast means DPs very likely will test for panic, and even a SH bus stands a fair chance of risking a panic test. And attrition wise, for comparison 9 attacks from 3 ironguts will only give you 2.5 wounds average vs T3/2+ save. It's gold for Ogres on such cavalry troops since both the slaughtermaster and butcher can spam it...

Yup runemaw redirects onto a friendly unit 5/6 of the time. Though only ironguts/BSB can carry it.

Good win this time =D> kudos on the deployment and utilising the narrow field well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:18 pm 
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I'm looking forward to seeing your army thread necro'd then ;)

Regarding Ogre magic - in my game the hero caster died quickly while the Slaughtermaster was far away from the cavalry. Regardless, my hammers didn't play a big part in this game, combat-wise. Granted, their movement and placement dictated quite a bit but regardless I doubt killing off a few would've made a big impact.

@huesofblue - playing on such a tight table was indeed a challenge. What saved me was the amount of drops I had, as he had to commit when I still had 2 flanks to choose between. Being able to manoevre like I did still required careful placement and a couple of free reforms (e.g. the Swordmasters to open for the Silver Helms). His units all being crammed up helped quite a bit.

On a sidenote, our gaming club will be having a Mighty Empires campaign starting in August. I will definitely participate and am really looking forward to it. The first fight will be at 1500 points though and 250 points will be added each round, ending up at 2500. I guess that gives me plenty of time to find out what I want to field.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing your army thread necro'd then

Thank you!

huesofblue wrote:
But 2.3 kills on average per cast means DPs very likely will test for panic, and even a SH bus stands a fair chance of risking a panic test.

This can be a factor but less so than last edition, especially for HE. Anything within 12" of the BSB is rock solid and stuff within 12" of the Prince pretty much so. A unit of DP's out on it's own has a 1-in-6 of failing which is worth a punt I guess.

I was thinking more of Curu's cavalry buses but a unit of 5 DP's is very common and as you say a juicy target for this spell, which could nuke it on good dice. I'd definitely be looking to dispel it unless there was a combat where stopping a buff was an absolute priority.

huesofblue wrote:
vs T3/2+ save. It's gold for Ogres on such cavalry troops since both the slaughtermaster and butcher can spam it...

Presumably you'd get a high casting total from the Slaughtermaster and a sneaky low-cast from the Butcher. I personally think taking a second Butcher would be overkill. Even then though, you have to take a Tyrant don't you and a BSB must be a good idea. That's a lot in characters, though Ogre characters are good of course.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:03 pm 
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I love your report, but it got me into analytical mode again, and I shouldn't be doing that from work ...

I don't understand why he would move his doomwheel backwards on turn 1. All he has to do is move it in parallel to his clanrat advance and it cannot hurt his other movement. That first turn backwards move is a terrible idea!!! As the game showed.

On turn 1, with Archmage archers and Swordmasters right there, he wasted warp lightning on spears?!?
Then turn 2 he tries 13th on the Swordmasters, when a successful cast at the archers probably kills your Archmage? His spell targetting seems highly flawed. Then he did the same turn 3, when killing swordmasters cannot save the slaves.

You conclude it is fairly certain the DPs would kill the Abomination in one round, but I don't see that. 8 attacks from front rank, 4 from second, and 1 extra from the champion. 13 attacks, 11.56 hits, 5.78 wounds. So you kill it outright less than half the time. Using the potion of strength pushes the odds clearly into your favor though.

On your turn 2, he managed to dispel 4d6+4 with just 2d6? Did you remember that he lost the +4 by failing to dispel? That was some amazingly awful dice on your part.

Fairly universal consensus is that warpstone tokens cannot be used to exceed the 6-dice per cast cap.



Overall you gained a clear advantage in deployment and he did nothing to counteract that on turn 1 or 2. You didn't even really need to use your Eagles! He let that chunk of rock split up his army, and did not try to get clanrat unit 2 over enough to help.
I think part of his army concept is flawed (horde slaves and horde bell unit), and that concept really really hurt him when you played narrow table. The bell unit, with general and BSB, needs to be just 5 wide to the general and BSB can reach more units. Horde slaves just aren't a good idea, because they won't kill enough anyway and it reduces their main value of being Steadfast.
As far as I can tell, the abomination is best deployed in the middle. Keep it near the Skaven BSB, and send it straight at the heart of the enemy. And if it dies, the Skaven are probably in position to take advantage of whatever effort the enemy had to use to kill it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:28 pm 
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dabber wrote:
I love your report, but it got me into analytical mode again, and I shouldn't be doing that from work ...


Hehe, thanks! I know the feeling all too well...

dabber wrote:
I don't understand why he would move his doomwheel backwards on turn 1. All he has to do is move it in parallel to his clanrat advance and it cannot hurt his other movement. That first turn backwards move is a terrible idea!!! As the game showed.


I'd agree that this wasn't his best move. The deployment was odd but I was indeed surprised to see him pull another direction. Might as well try to overrun my weak flank when he deployed like that.

dabber wrote:
On turn 1, with Archmage archers and Swordmasters right there, he wasted warp lightning on spears?!?
Then turn 2 he tries 13th on the Swordmasters, when a successful cast at the archers probably kills your Archmage? His spell targetting seems highly flawed. Then he did the same turn 3, when killing swordmasters cannot save the slaves.


T1 - he wanted to reduce ranks before Slaves got close. As it turned out - a very wise call as I was close to breaking his Steadfast on my combo-charge in the first round of combat. I was surprised at the moment though to see Swordmasters left alone. Turn 2 my Archers were definitely out of range. I deployed them quite a few inches behind and pulled them further back in Turn 1. I'm not even sure they were in range in Turn 3. I believe he intended to engage what infantry I had left. His spell targetting overall was severely limited by poor range, due to poor deployment. The diagrams don't reflect this too well, unfortunately.

dabber wrote:
You conclude it is fairly certain the DPs would kill the Abomination in one round, but I don't see that. 8 attacks from front rank, 4 from second, and 1 extra from the champion. 13 attacks, 11.56 hits, 5.78 wounds. So you kill it outright less than half the time. Using the potion of strength pushes the odds clearly into your favor though.


Yep, I calculated the full unit, forgot only 4 got in base contact.

dabber wrote:
On your turn 2, he managed to dispel 4d6+4 with just 2d6? Did you remember that he lost the +4 by failing to dispel? That was some amazingly awful dice on your part.


Actually, when you mention it I believe we forgot he lost his +4 and only had +1 (Warlock). I rolled a total of 8 (on 4D6!!), giving 12 with my Archmage. He might've rolled 11, I'm not sure.

dabber wrote:
Fairly universal consensus is that warpstone tokens cannot be used to exceed the 6-dice per cast cap.


We looked it up - it says it can be used to cast with more dice than the level allows. I guess this is redundant. It makes more sense though that 6 is the max limit since 13th is insane - and with the possibility of casting it with 9 dice it's just retarded. I'll notify him about this.

The deployment really was a killer. We also played closed lists so he didn't know where my flamebanner was. It would be interesting to see his Abomination in the middle with the Bell further ahead, perhaps using Slaves to cover a flank or something like that. If I'd have charged in against the Abomination with my Dragon Princes in the middle, a counter-charge would've been likely and probably would've hurt.

Thanks for the analysis - love the feedback ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
T1 - he wanted to reduce ranks before Slaves got close. As it turned out - a very wise call as I was close to breaking his Steadfast on my combo-charge in the first round of combat.

*sigh* If that is his concern, the solution is what I said about his army - don't horde slaves!!!

Curu Olannon wrote:
dabber wrote:
Fairly universal consensus is that warpstone tokens cannot be used to exceed the 6-dice per cast cap.

We looked it up - it says it can be used to cast with more dice than the level allows. I guess this is redundant.

That phrase was also removed entirely by the errata.



Curu Olannon wrote:
Thanks for the analysis - love the feedback ;)

Thanks for the stream of good reports. I get more Warhammer these days via reading than playing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Good game.

looking at the list you played against , once you deployed the game, barring really bad dice rolls was pretty much yours.

I play both and agree that the horde slave and horde bell unit were just a bad plan. However, you played well and picked targets well.

keep up the run.

I have been playing my Rats more recently to give my friends a break from the HE and to try something different.

And a warlock with not doomrocket or death globe...madness...

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:07 pm 
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I was surprised to see no Gutter Runners but I guess it was primarily a Skryre army.

Plus you can't include all the good stuff I suppose.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:55 pm 
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@ dabber - you clearly have some insight with regards to Skaven lists. I'll make sure to have my opponent check these replies, I'm sure he'll appreciate it. I checked the pictures on my phone and it might be that the Swordmasters were out of range. I can't recall the ranges 100% but I do know that he was frustrated more than once due to me deploying a little behind and his own units being in his way.

@ akielzather - we'll see how long I can keep this streak going. I'm currently 9-0 in 8th but I've yet to face lots of poor luck or an opponent with very few mistakes.

@ SpellArcher - I don't know if Gutter Runners would've made a big impact here. If so, what to change? In my opinion, the BSB would be better off in a unit of Stormvermin which would've been a way more deciding factor than keeping him far back in a big, unwieldy, unbreakable unit. Again though, I don't know Skaven very well. I do know however that they have a lot of nasty tricks. I suppose the Abomination is the least of my worries with my current unit of Dragon Princes.

So - I have a battle lined up for Wednesday. It's against the WoC / OK general. I have a feeling he'll be fielding Kholek again, but I'm not sure yet. I also have a game lined up Wednesday in a week. This will probably be against Wood Elves, but again, I'm not sure.

Today I've been thinking a lot about Life Magic. My main argument for taking it is its all-round insurances. However, against any semi-decent magical defense, it's hard to land the spells you need. Consider a gunline - if it needs to dispel the +T buff, probably Regrowth is favourable. In some cases, maybe T5 is fine, in which case all you have to do is dispel Throne.

All this means that the lore's fairly one-dimensional, i.e. it's easy to prioritize against in most magic phases and thus stop what you want. Having contemplated this, I've reached the following tentative conclusion: magic needs to have either a lot of spells which are all roughly equally useful, in which case you can just spam and some will get through. Failing that, you need a lore which can almost always present multiple threats - meaning one powerful spell can get through. Of course, Teclis or Book are alternative approaches but I don't want to take either of them.

So - which lores fit this bill? Bear in mind - the average PD with Banner of Sorcery is 9. Average DD before bonuses is 4.5. Let's round that up to 5, for simplicity's sake. This means you're left with 3 rolls of 3, in which case 2 are likely to get through. However, roll poorly, and he's quickly dispelled 2. Also, for 3x3 you need a lore that has an abundance of spells around 10-12 (casting value) which is a comfortable value to chuck 3 dice at. The alternative is to throw 4+5 in which case he'll be hard pressed to prioritize. You will almost always get one through, and fairly often you'll get both spells through. This excels with lores that have 14-15 spells (casting value) as this is fairly optimal for 4 dice casts.

Ok so this is all a lot of theory. Let's try to break it down with regards to my army and how it plays:
- if any of my 4 combat units make it into combat, it usually wins or at least holds its ground until help can arrive.
- if I face tough opponents, magic usually gives me the edge I need to win. T7 is insanely strong, but a plethora of other hexes and augments are available which will give me an equally impressive fighting chance (e.g. Okkam's)

I am sure that I need a spell which can aid my infantry in melee. I am also sure that I need an offensive spell which can take care of threats at range - like Dwellers does for me now. I dread chosen deathstars with 3+ ward etc. Here's what I've come up with:
- Metal. Glittering Robe and Aiban's Blades are both very helpful in melee. However, it's usually easy to prioritize against these. Seering Doom and Transmutation offer superb offensive capabilities, the latter being even better than Dwellers against tough targets. In this case, it's hard to prioritize IF you have a tough unit. Light hordes have an easier choice, but it's just as easy with Dwellers. This lore is a good choice for 3+3+3 (robe, blades, doom) AND 4+5 (doom, transmutation) but it depends a lot upon what you're facing.
- Shadow. Withering and Enfeebling are both really good melee hexes for all of my units. I believe they're hard to prioritize against. Pit and Okkam's ensure offensive capabilities. The problem with the latter is that it's fairly easy to prioritize against. It's pretty obvious which fights I really need to get it through. This lore is a good choice for 4+5 (any combination, usually withering + enfeebling or pit + okkam's)
- Light. Very good candidate for 3+3+3. No real option against Hordes. Granted, a Birona's on a 12-wide Swordmasters... However, come a Deathstar of tough ones and I'm back to square one. Also easy to prioritize against
- High. Very good candidate for 3+3+3 or even 2+2+2+3 (drain, shield, fury/flames, vaul's). Easy to prioritize against and no good options against Hordes (well, flames against light hordes obviously).

So yeah, I feel I'm back to square one. Neither of the lores seem like 'the perfect choice'. I didn't consider the others as they're no-where near what I'm looking for. I'd really like some input here - especially if you've played these lores with BoS but without Book/Teclis. How did they fare against proper magical defense? How would you rate them for my army compared to Life?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:36 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Presumably you'd get a high casting total from the Slaughtermaster and a sneaky low-cast from the Butcher. I personally think taking a second Butcher would be overkill. Even then though, you have to take a Tyrant don't you and a BSB must be a good idea. That's a lot in characters, though Ogre characters are good of course.


Actually consensus among ogre players nowadays leans more towards going character heavy if possible - in a 2K list, running tyrant/BSB/slaughtermaster/butcher is tough without making equipment sacrifices, but you'll find that a lot of ogre lists 2.2K and up run all 4. It's not overkill cos of loremaster, and low casting costs. Standard casting tactics include 1 dice spamming with butcher until rolling 1-2 then adding a dice with grut's sickle, then continuing on ---> switch to slaughtermaster and cast on 1-2 dice depending on how many dice you have left/what spells you want to get off. Can lead to a surprising number of spells getting cast. Plus, OK casters are no slouches in combat either, so they have overall more utility use than purely as casters; you don't have to hide them (quite as much).

Agree though, bonecruncher might not have been quite so deadly on the bus, more so for small cavalry units (5 x DPs).



@ Curu: If I'm reading it right, a major concern of yours is which spells will likely get through, and which won't. If so, based on your preferred spells (melee aid, offensive ranged) perhaps a lore where a degree of redundancy is present in your 4 spell choices would be most helpful.

- metal: robe/aiban's and doom/transmutation give u 2 spells of each time, but it's more situational compared to other lores
- light: melee aid spells aplenty, but banishment/shem's don't quite cut it offensively
- high: good variety but no redundancy
- shadow: perhaps this would be a possible alternative for you; wither/enfeebling/okkam's are good for melee, whereas wither (combined with your shooting)/pit provide ranged offense.

It's always going to be possible to prioritise against that one key spell that would be most useful; however, if you have alternatives that do still provide benefit, your plans won't be derailed as easily... so in this case my suggestion would be shadow.

- e.g. if pit fails this turn, wither and shoot away; if okkam's fails, wither still provides you with a portion of the benefit. If wither fails and no dice left for okkam's, enfeeble them so you at least stick around. etc...

Suits the purposes of 1) melee helpful spells, ranged offensive spells 2) if dispelled, similar benefits still can be accrued through other means.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:06 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I don't know if Gutter Runners would've made a big impact here. If so, what to change?

I'd have taken them instead of the Rat Ogres. The ability to put 20 poisoned sling shots almost anywhere on the table is excellent. That said, I think his army was reasonably strong anyway.

Obviously Ogre players know their army better than I do, I'm just suspicious of an even lower model count than usual. I take the point about the fighting wizards, useful offensively and you don't have the elf headache of protecting them.

I agree, I'd test out Shadow.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Thank you very much for your analysis, huesofblue. It's good to see that my thinking isn't too far off everybody else's. Since SpellArcher also believes Shadow would be good, I have decided to test it instead of Life for a couple of games (at least 5).

So it indeed looks like my next game will be against Warriors of Chaos. I got a head's up from my opponent, saying he's likely to change a couple of units. I still believe the theme will be the same though. On the plus side, Okkam's and Pit are lethal against Kholek. On the other side, not having Life means my characters must really beware his Trolls. I suppose I'll do the same as I always do - out-deploy him as best as I can with expendable and fast units and dictate the flow of the game. Hopefully this time around I will not clumsily disable my own Dragon Princes.

My battle next week is also interesting. As my opponent then is practicing for an ETC tournament, we will use ETC rules. The lists will still be 2500 points though, at my request. Since my list is out in the open he thought it fair to post his own. He's fielding Wood Elves and the army is as follows:

Lifeweaver, lvl 4, scroll of shielding, Rhymer's harp
BSB, flaming banner

27 Glade Guard, full command, banner of springtide
10 glade guard, musician
12 dryads

7 Treekin
6 Treekin

2 Treemen

So basically, I know a couple of these units from my 1500 points game against him. Apart from that, my Lore is different and I don't know the characters too well. Thoughts about these encounters are of course very welcome :)

The first army pictures will hopefully be up soon. I'm trying to finish the last 7 Swordmasters, however it's taking me ages. I'm also very close to priming the last models so I can post a complete shot of all the units. There's exams, games and other things going on though so no promises!

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Lifeweaver, lvl 4, scroll of shielding, Rhymer's harp
Serioiusly? The scroll of shielding? An item that has no value against you, whether your lore is Life or Shadow.

With Shadow, I also think you replace Seer with Silver Wand and spend the 20 points elsewhere. Only one Shadow spell is useless (Pendulum) and one very limited (Steed). Picking 4 of the other 5 with Seer is not obvious, although I think you skip Pit. Since one is the signature, Silver Wand makes the odds you get the 4 spells you would have picked extremely high, plus you get a bonus spell.

In my opinion, those extra 20 points go into a ward save (if you have 5 spare points), or into Amulet of Light. You have no magic attacks in your army, which makes you horribly vulnerable to wraiths, and the amulet would save you there. Also good against a few ethereal characters and Wood Elves, but the risk of facing wraiths in a general purpose list is real, and would be really unpleasant for you.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Rhymer's harp

What do people make of this item?

Very expensive but then a unit-wide 5+ Ward is always nice.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:08 am 
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dabber wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Lifeweaver, lvl 4, scroll of shielding, Rhymer's harp
Serioiusly? The scroll of shielding? An item that has no value against you, whether your lore is Life or Shadow.

With Shadow, I also think you replace Seer with Silver Wand and spend the 20 points elsewhere. Only one Shadow spell is useless (Pendulum) and one very limited (Steed). Picking 4 of the other 5 with Seer is not obvious, although I think you skip Pit. Since one is the signature, Silver Wand makes the odds you get the 4 spells you would have picked extremely high, plus you get a bonus spell.

In my opinion, those extra 20 points go into a ward save (if you have 5 spare points), or into Amulet of Light. You have no magic attacks in your army, which makes you horribly vulnerable to wraiths, and the amulet would save you there. Also good against a few ethereal characters and Wood Elves, but the risk of facing wraiths in a general purpose list is real, and would be really unpleasant for you.


I'm guessing he's playtesting for the tourney, in which case he wants to know how his list performs.

I'll consider the Amulet / Wand thingy. Problem is, there are no good candidates for the Amulet. I have the Giant Blade though as a last resort but I see your point.

@ SpellArcher - never played against Rhymer's Harp so I don't know how decisive it can be. Then again I mostly think expensive mages are somewhat wasted. If you decide to go down the protection road, arguably 4+ ward is the most common. This is only 25 points more and grants an entire unit decent protection. Still, this is all theoryhammer and we'll have to see how it works!

I've completed my Swordmasters. The first army pictures are now up and can be found in this thread, more precisely, here. Feedback is appreciated - in particular I'm wondering how to paint the Helms and Naenor (BSB). Next on my list is finishing the Dragon Princes. After that, I'll probably paint the Spears and Helms in basic flat colours (e.g. basecoats) as I hate black models. First though, a match tomorrow! Stay tuned, I'll probably have the report up within 24 hours unless something comes up.

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I'll consider the Amulet / Wand thingy. Problem is, there are no good candidates for the Amulet. I have the Giant Blade though as a last resort but I see your point.

Forget my point, it was a bad idea. I was suffering from blatant delusions that you had zero magic weapons. Which is obviously wrong since that is the point of your prince! Giant Blade is enough.



On the Rhymer's Harp, I don't think it fits in that list. The unit with it is not significant enough to make it worthwhile, and it won't save the characters from number 6 spells. If that unit is in combat the army is likely screwed anyway. That said, the treekin and double treeman could be powerful, I just don't think the spellweaver equipment is any good.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Rematch against Warriors of Chaos! This time around, he didn't bring Kholek but instead a lot of magic!

:: The Magic of Chaos ::

My fourth game, and possibly my 10th win in a row. Could my Vindicators pull it off yet again? His list:

Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch, 3+ Ward, 2+ Armour Save, Infernal Puppet
BSB, Book of Secrets, Power Familiar
Festus
Throgg
6 Trolls
6 Trolls
20 Warriors of Nurgle, Additional Hand Weapon
1 Shaggoth
1 Shaggoth

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I was less worried about this list than Kholek to be honest. I believe the Warriors are way inferior to the Marauders as well. Overall, I was pretty confident I could handle this list. We decided to play battle line, both of us somewhat tired of random scenarios. I won the roll and chose to deploy first as I thought the south side was marginally better for making him commit.

For magic, he rolled 1,2,3,3, swapping a 3 for Treason. God I hate that spell, so cheap and so insanely powerful against High Elves. Festus got 1 wound no armour save and the BSB took Fireball from the Lore of Fire.

Eagles and Repeater first, as usual. He committed and I refused the Repeater flank. All his characters, save for Throgg, deployed with the Warriors.

Image

I won the roll-off and went first.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I moved up my units as fast as they could, though the Cavalry took care to keep their distance against his monsters. Archers with Archmage moved up somewhat to get in range for a decent Pit.

Magic sees 8 dice vs 5. I start off with a 4-dice Withering on his central Shaggoth. I get 2 6's and the Shaggoth is left with T2. I roll a 7 for the miscast table, and my opponent announces he has Infernal Puppet. Sigh. He rolls a 5, so it's reduced to a 4. My Archmage disappears along with his entire unit. As my opponent said (remember he was the Ogre general as well): "I'm starting to see a trend here!". Well, whatever that trend is, I don't like it.

In the shooting phase the Shaggoth takes a beating from what's left - leaving it at only 1 wound. With that, my turn ends, and I'm facing 3 Mages having +2 Power Dice.

Image

:: Warriors of Chaos Turn 1 ::

He moves up his denied flank as best as he can, the wounded Shaggoth taking lead. He's not careful with its angling - leaving me a perfect position to get back into the game. I notice it's around 5-6" between it and the Warriors block and I'm starting to see opportunities for my next turn. Throgg's unit moves back, denying me a charge.

Magic - and I need to make the most out of my defense. He rolls 5 for winds (4+1) but has 2 extra from his BSB and manages to channel another for a total of 8 v 4. He starts off with a Flickering Fire on my Silver Helms, which goes through at IF! His result is poor but Puppet makes it decent and he suffers no harm due to regen/ward saves. A single Helm dies and I'm fairly satisfied as the rest of his Power Dice are drained away.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Hammer-time! I only have one shot at this game so I throw caution to the wind. Silver Helms charge his Warriors and I take care to angle Saerith to target Festus. Spearelves charge his 1W Shaggoth, needing 5" to overrun into the Warriors. The Dragon Princes and Swordmasters move up. I place one Eagle to protect Saerith's flank (I forgot it in the diagram - sorry!), while the other protects the Dragon Princes' front (poor diagram here).

Shooting sees 2 wounds off the remaining Shaggoth due to a single bolt. We go to combat and Naenor easily finished the Shaggoth. His reckless angling set up the perfect overrun, which I duly fail with a 3 and a 1 coming up. Sigh. Saerith invokes Loec to make sure the unit loses some its durability. I promptly put 4 wounds on Festus, and he saves them all with his first roll! I hold my breath but to no need, he misses 3 on the Loec re-roll. The other Silver Helms combine to kill 5 more, losing a handful in return. I lose by 1 but hold easily due to Naenor.

Image

:: Warriors of Chaos Turn 2 ::

Throgg charges the Eagle, the other Trolls charge the other Eagle. Both hold. The Shaggoth charges my Spearelves who also hold.

Magic is uneventful with poor winds. He ends up casting Treason at my Helms (the only unit in range) which does nothing.

In combat he resolves the Cavalry one first, his Lord issuing a challenge. Saerith duly accepts and puts 3 wounds past his 2+ armour save - only to see them all saved by his 3+ ward. I mean... 3+ ward and 2+ armour save on a Wizard - I wish I had that kind of protection! Regardless, he fails to wound Saerith in return but the rest of his unit easily kills the few remaining Helms and I lose badly. I fail to roll snake-eyes. His Warriors pursue, with the Shaggoth restraining. I roll 5-4-2 for my flee only to have his Warriors roll 5-5 to kill Saerith AND overrun into Spearelves. So, speaking of Spearelves, they put a handful of Warriors down and lose 15 (!!) in return. Naenor finds himself locked in challenge against the Sorceror Lord, the 3+ Ward again protecting him from harm. I hold due to steadfast. The Trolls kill an eagle each, Throgg's unit overrunning into the Dragon Princes' front. The diagram is poor here: it was a clear front charge with my Swordmasters having a clear counter-charge. It was poor eagle-placement on my part as I intended to angle them away - letting my lances count. I guess I was too pre-occupied with praying for my Spearelves' overrun to pay attention to its angle.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I declare Potion of Strength on Drakemaster and counter-charge with Swordmasters. His unit was 6 + Throgg big so he had 3 Trolls on the flank - letting all the Swordmasters attack! I needed to win this fight to have a chance at the game.

Shooting took a couple of wounds off the Eastern Trolls, and we proceeded to combat: Drakemaster put 2 wounds on Throgg, barely dieing in return. The rest of the Princes put down 2 Trolls, with the Swordmasters killing a third. In return, I lost a couple of Princes and a Swordmaster. He lost the combat badly and both units chose to overrun, hoping to get central enough to make an impact. I easily caught him and my rolls were fairly good.

The Spearelves however received quite a beating and I failed to pretty much hurt him at all. Failing Snake Eyes they, too, were overrun. This put his Warriors in an awkward position though, the Shaggoth however had a nice flank charge to my Dragon Princes.

Image

:: Warriors of Chaos Turn 3 ::

His Shaggoth and Trolls charge my Dragon Princes, who hold. The Trolls were very far away and didn't make it.

Magic sees him get 12 dice vs my 5. He starts off with a 4-die IF Treason on Swordmasters. Luckily, 8 remain. The miscast kills 2 Warriors and wounds his Lord. The unit was now down to 10 with the BSB + Lord. His dice are heavily drained away and I dispel his last cast.

Combat sees his Shaggoth roll very well, and I lose just enough to lose Steadfast. One of the Steeds (!!) put a wound on him though, so he only had 2 left. I promptly run away but he fails to catch me. A perfect opening for my Swordmasters to charge his Lord's unit - my last remaining chance (albeit a legit one!) at winning the game: if my shooting could kill the Shaggoth and the Swordmasters could deal with the Warriors, I'd have 2 small units left against his Trolls.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

My Swordmasters charge his Warriors and the Dragon Princes rally. Archers move up to draw proper Line of Sight to the Shaggoth, making sure to get in short range while they're at it.

The all-important shooting phase fails me badly as I can't put a single wound on him. The Repeater hits, but rolls a 1 to wound. The Archers hit with 8 arrows but only 1 wounds and it's saved. Sigh.

The Swordmasters kill all his remaining 8 Warriors and his 2 characters put 4 of the 8 down. He breaks however, needing to roll a 4- on 2D6 re-rolled, which he fails. His BSB dies instantly and his Lord runs away 7". Rolling my pursuit roll, I get 6 and overrun into Trolls.

Image

:: Warriors of Chaos Turn 4 ::

The game is pretty much over. His Trolls kill the Swordmasters and the Shaggoth kills my remaining cavalry. His Lord rallies and kills 8 Archers with a magic missile. Having a handful of Archers and the Repeater left, I concede the game.

:: Victory Points ::

It was a clear victory to Chaos, as I conceded!

:: Evaluation ::

Boy oh boy! Here I was thinking I'd get to try out some nasty Shadow buffs and hexes, only to lose my Archmage on my very first turn - again! Because of this I had to play fairly recklessly. It was an uphill fight the entire game and in the end I couldn't get back in. My 2 biggest mistakes hardly had an impact: one was angling the Eagle poorly, the other was accepting his Lord's challenge (forgot he was Tzeentch, should've seen the Ward save coming from miles away). The first of these actually benefitted me as the combat against Throgg was perfect for me. The second didn't matter too much, and, on average, I would've wounded him at least once.

His magic was poor throughout the game, with his IF limiting himself. That being said, his spells weren't that much of a threat. What kept me in the game was my hard units getting into combat quickly. 3 events could've very well turned this the other way around: the Spearelves making the overrun, the shooting killing the 2W Shaggoth and my Swordmasters catching his Lord.

Regardless, it was not to be. Playing a one-mage is quite risky, especially when you don't do Life, however you can't expect to miscast on 4 dice AND lose your mage, even if your opponent has Puppet. That being said, I will give Shadow 4 more games (at least) to see how it plays. I have a feeling that Life, with its increased reliability, will be my favoured choice in the end. We have yet to see, though!

So my first loss. Unfortunately I don't have time to play before next Wednesday (I really doubt it at least) at which point I'm facing Wood Elves. In the meantime, I'd appreciate thoughts about this game :)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Thanks again for the report. Not much you can do when your level 4 dies the top of turn 1. He messed up enough you almost recovered, but the dice didn't let you.


Nurgle warriors with extra hand weapons? Is there a worse chaos warrior configuration? I guess slaanesh, but extra hand weapons is clearly the worse possible equipment, particularly against you, and the mark of nurgle is almost useless.

Obviously he rolled poorly for spells, but I think he made a mistake swapping to Treason instead of Gateway. He needed a bigger threat to your cavalry. Given your unit sizes, treason is not a big threat.

The Book of Secrets has been errata'd for 8th edition - it does not generate extra power dice. It only said that in 7th because each wizard level generated power dice.

I don't think you should have hurt that Shaggoth turn 1 very much. Withering is a remains in play spell, so it ceases instantly when the caster dies.

Other than the eastern trolls, I'm not sure why he moved up at all turn 1. With your level 4 gone, he has the ranged advantage.


What Shadow spells are you taking?


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:08 pm 
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I'm actually a bit surprised Throgg didn't just run up and breathe vomit on your dragon princes. By the looks of it, he could have gotten all of them, which is pretty much surefire doom for a unit of cavalry like that.

Tough break on the Archmage first turn. That puppet is nasty, but I usually play similar to how you did - take my chances and cast as normal. I feel like the puppet has a much greater effect if you fear it and change your casting patterns due to it. Figures the first game you switch to shadows your mage gets sucked into the void :P

I find cavalry lists like these are very spectacular to watch - whether the game goes good or bad. With the prevalence of big ranked units like those warriors, so much relies on combined charges and concentrating force. Unfortunately, like you said, taking out that Archmage early meant that you had to rush into combat, which didn't give you the time you normally have to set up those charges.

9-1 still ain't that bad :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch, 3+ Ward, 2+ Armour Save, Infernal Puppet

Wot no Disc?

:)

I am really starting to consider Earthing Rod for the Arcane slot. It is not nice when your AM disappears turn 1! ER looks great as you can miscast away but only use the Rod once you've rolled 2-4 on the table, which is the real killer. Puppet is vicious but there are other things to watch out for too like the Ogre miscast items. Of course Life has an answer in Throne as said.

It looks like you had a real go after that but it didn't quite come off.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:44 am 
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dabber wrote:
The Book of Secrets has been errata'd for 8th edition - it does not generate extra power dice. It only said that in 7th because each wizard level generated power dice.

I don't think you should have hurt that Shaggoth turn 1 very much. Withering is a remains in play spell, so it ceases instantly when the caster dies.

What Shadow spells are you taking?


Good to know about the Book of Secrets! I'll make sure and tell him. Does it make you a mage though? The wording doesn't imply it - which means you normally can't take arcane items.

Regarding -3T Shaggoth: I'm so used to Life when it comes to toughness adjustments. My opponent asked if the spell remained until the start off my next magic phase and I replied yes. Obviously a mistake on my part! 2 of the wounds were caused by the Archers and probably wouldn't have been wounds in that case.

I'm taking -S, -T, Pit and Okkam's. I guess with Shadow I'm better off with Wand since the default spell is really good. First off though I'll play 5 games to see if I even like the Lore at all compared to Life.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I'm actually a bit surprised Throgg didn't just run up and breathe vomit on your dragon princes. By the looks of it, he could have gotten all of them, which is pretty much surefire doom for a unit of cavalry like that.


Throgg was in a challenge. Besides, he thought that his vomit was a breath weapon attack - forgetting that only Throgg's special 2D6 vomit is a breath weapon attack. We did discuss this afterwards though and in hindsight he'd rather vomit with his remaining Trolls.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Tough break on the Archmage first turn. That puppet is nasty, but I usually play similar to how you did - take my chances and cast as normal. I feel like the puppet has a much greater effect if you fear it and change your casting patterns due to it. Figures the first game you switch to shadows your mage gets sucked into the void :P


I know that taking a single mage is risky, particularly when I've invested so many points in magic. However, I expect to be able to roll 4-die spells fairly safe. On top of that, he did get the maximum out of puppet, rolling a 3 on a D3 when he needed it the most. Still though, this setup contradicts my theory about High Elf reliability concerns. To outweigh the safety provided by Throne of Vines, Shadow really needs to be a game-breaker in the next couple of games for me to decide to stick with it.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I find cavalry lists like these are very spectacular to watch - whether the game goes good or bad. With the prevalence of big ranked units like those warriors, so much relies on combined charges and concentrating force. Unfortunately, like you said, taking out that Archmage early meant that you had to rush into combat, which didn't give you the time you normally have to set up those charges.

9-1 still ain't that bad :)


Yes, in this game I didn't have any opportunities to combo-charge and use my units to their full tactical flexibility. Normally I'd have wanted another turn of setups before engaging but with 3 mages and +2PD I really needed to get in the middle of it all before he blew me to pieces. In hindsight I think I could've deployed marginally better - placing the Swordmasters in a more central position. It took them forever to get to where I needed them, but then again, they really did what they were supposed to do.

SpellArcher wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch, 3+ Ward, 2+ Armour Save, Infernal Puppet

Wot no Disc?

:)

I am really starting to consider Earthing Rod for the Arcane slot. It is not nice when your AM disappears turn 1! ER looks great as you can miscast away but only use the Rod once you've rolled 2-4 on the table, which is the real killer. Puppet is vicious but there are other things to watch out for too like the Ogre miscast items. Of course Life has an answer in Throne as said.

It looks like you had a real go after that but it didn't quite come off.


I'm guessing he was in the unit to protect it. If he hadn't challenged my Prince, his BSB would have had to.

Miscasts in general are so bad this version - the Earthing Rod makes a lot of sense. The problem with it, however, is that you lose spell selection - meaning you have to either pick a lore where it doesn't matter too much (e.g. High Magic), run a risk of losing out on the right spells or have a support caster to ensure spell selection.

About the units and their performance in this game:

Archers as usual do fairly little. However, core's mandatory points and the best thing I can do is swap them for more Spears. Granted, I guess more Spears could do, but then again the Archers perform fairly well when there's an annoyance for them to handle. They also provide the Archmage with a reliable meatshield. The Repeater did very well and almost gave me a chance at winning the game - it took down 5 wounds on the Shaggoths. If I'd have hit the last Shaggoth I would've had my 3 Dragon Princes left, ready to Charge his Sorceror Lord. It's not much, but it's a chance. Although the Repeater might not in itself be worth 100 points, the flexibility it provides is something I'm very reluctant to take away.

The Cavalry did what I expected them to do. The Silver Helms are strong when they get the charge off and the Dragon Princes did very well despite being charged themselves by the Trolls. I'm very happy with both units and it's a pity I didn't have magic to support them when needed. I believe that with any of the Shadow hexes/augments I would've had a way easier time.

The Swordmasters did very well, however I think I could've played them in a more central position. The Spearelves did ok but I really needed them to hold one more round for my Dragon Princes and Swordmasters to get in the fight. It was always an uphill battle but losing the Spearelves too early was a huge blow. Failing to reach the Warriors on their overrun was perhaps the most critical part of the game as it would've seen way more combat resolution in my favour.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Quote:
Throgg was in a challenge. Besides, he thought that his vomit was a breath weapon attack - forgetting that only Throgg's special 2D6 vomit is a breath weapon attack. We did discuss this afterwards though and in hindsight he'd rather vomit with his remaining Trolls.


Not much time this morning, so this post will be brief.

I was referring to the turn the trolls charged the eagle - Would Throgg not have been able to leave the unit and position himself down the flank of the Dragon Princes, then breathe his breath vomit on every one of them? Perhaps the distance is bigger than in the picture, but if this was possible it would have been cataclysmic for the Princes.

Then he could have moved the normal trolls up to prevent a counter charge by your swordmasters on Throgg.

I guess it all depends on what the actual distances were.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Quote:
Throgg was in a challenge. Besides, he thought that his vomit was a breath weapon attack - forgetting that only Throgg's special 2D6 vomit is a breath weapon attack. We did discuss this afterwards though and in hindsight he'd rather vomit with his remaining Trolls.


Not much time this morning, so this post will be brief.

I was referring to the turn the trolls charged the eagle - Would Throgg not have been able to leave the unit and position himself down the flank of the Dragon Princes, then breathe his breath vomit on every one of them? Perhaps the distance is bigger than in the picture, but if this was possible it would have been cataclysmic for the Princes.

Then he could have moved the normal trolls up to prevent a counter charge by your swordmasters on Throgg.

I guess it all depends on what the actual distances were.


The distances were fine, however:

1. A character cannot leave a charging unit. He can charge out of it, but then the unit can't itself charge. As such, he'd have to leave the Eagle be to move Throgg out like that.
2. Dragon Armour provides a 2+ Ward save against Breath Weapons.
3. With the Eagle left there, the Trolls couldn't possibly move to interrupt any unit as it would've been way too long.

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