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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:03 pm 
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I played in a small tournament this weekend, vs a simplistic Khorne Warriors of Chaos army that either annihilates its opponent or is itself annihilated, and two much tougher games vs Tomb Kings gunline and Daemons. Especially tough considering the TK player was the organiser and dropped the flaming banner from a chariot unit after seeing there were three High Elf players at the tournament (and losing to me in a practice game with his original list ;) ), and the Daemon player guessed that Lore of Light would be popular and happened to have Banner of Sundering on his Herald (And I only had 2 Mages with Lore of Light)! The tournament was using some odd comp which didn't allow Lord choices at all, but still some interesting lessons to be learnt. For example I didn't cast a single spell all game against the Tomb Kings, but planning ahead for multiple combats saved me a bunch.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Hi Curu. You missed out on the Arcon tournament, so I'll give you a brief resumé:
The tournament was uncomped, 2000 pts.
Lots of dark elves, two with dual hydras. Pendant was also a very popular. Except those there was a good spread of armies, nothing particularly nasty. A Goblin army with lots of one-model units were surprisingly annoying. The winner was a very innocent looking WoC army (No hordes or hellcannons) wielded by a ETC player, and I placed second with a modified version of the WE list you faced.

I think your army will struggle against DE armies wielded by good players, because there are so many tricks to play with that army taken to the max.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Hi rusty!

Congratulations on the second place, you should write a battle report on your own (and if you already have just give us a link) :)
Do you know what was in the winning WoC army list at least unit wise? Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:19 pm 
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The WoC were: khorne knights, warriors, marauders, mounted bsb. Tzeentch disc lord, lvl 2 on foot.6 chaos ogres. I assume he won by tactics and gateway.

I unfortunately don't have time for a proper report, but some conclusions were pretty obvious. I changed one game from massacre to minor victory because I forgot to park an eagle in front of black guard. Otherwise I didn't make many mistakes. The goblin spam battle was Interesting in that neither of us could steamroll the other, so WE played tit for tat instead, and my units were more expensive. Another fun battle was vs pure clan Pestilens. Not much point shooting at the wall of rats, but the forest spirits walked straight through his units.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:14 pm 
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Well played!

Bad luck with the eagle. I found goblin spam very hard to deal with but your Spirits care less about the impact hits and you have plenty of light shooting.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 am 
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Thanks for posting your tournament evaluations here! It's got me thinking again, which is usually a good thing ;) Good to see rusty putting Eagles to good use as well, can't wait for our campaign to start in August! The Dark Elves you mentioned rusty - I don't doubt for a second that I'd have problems with them. I haven't faced them since 6th edition and rumour has it their power level is pretty much the opposite of what it was then.

jwg20 - how can your Prince have the Radiant Gem of Hoeth AND the Potion of Strength? They're both enchanted items, I believe.

So, as anticipated this summer isn't providing me with a lot of games (zero thus far) but I've done some bulk painting (less than I hoped for, due to other events). Pictures will be up as soon as it's something worth posting.

As for the Prince - dabber's point about the abundance of Killing Blow is a very good one. Combined with Dwellers, Multiple-wounds weapons and high-strength characters, I simply can't justify taking him unless he really provides something I don't get otherwise. A mage-knight Prince is only S6 without access to the Talisman of Loec or the Potion of Strength - which is simply a couple of White Lions and a mage, essentially. He can't do anything real well, which doesn't justify the 250-300 points you're spending. Seredain's build which I've fallen in love with however does something no other element can do in a lot of cases - take care of hard stuff reliably and tank up against most things (compared to the mage-knight Prince his armour save is only 1 point better, however against S6 a 4+ re-roll is WAY better than a 5+ re-roll (75% against 54%)).

Since I just recently swapped to the Vortex Shard I believe I should give it a try with the current list. A lot of this is due to the fact that I believe it's most useful when I have a lot of cavalry. As for the Silver Helms' poor performance thus far, I believe I just have to start playing them differently and support them better. So - current list gets at least 4 more games before I swap anything (5 games minimum - same philosophy as earlier). I will re-read Seredain's battle reports and try to find out how he uses his Helms compared to me - especially with the setup I now have (with the BSB also in the unit) since the units are very similar.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Ahh, sorry I was unclear. My prince doesn't carry the RGoH. What I was referring to was that if you take the gem, you can't take the Giant Blade as you have it now (45+60 > 100). My statement was that with my Eagle Prince, I rarely feel like I am lacking with only S6 vs. S7 as conferred by the giant blade. I take potion of strength personally for the few instances where higher S makes a difference (my general is from Chrace, so he is a monster hunter and I designed him as such), but the Gem is a good substitute, and I feel it could work. The lower S can be minimized even more by you since your AM takes shadow. Your general would still be capable of taking down monsters with some magical assistance, and could take the Gem to cast spells as well.

Sorry for the confusion. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:09 am 
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Sorry to disappoint you all but I have no pictures to share. There simply hasn't been time for Warhammer this summer! On the bright side of things, working's been amazing and it's been a really good summer.

As for my army - I haven't had much time to read these forums lately either. I have read enough though to know that I really want to make this cavalry-thing work, and I have a few other approaches in mind as well.

In a couple of weeks time a Mighty Empires campaign is starting up. The armies start at 1500 points and will slowly increase to 2500. The campaign is likely to run throughout the semester, ending in late November/early December. This is a good opportunity for me to try out various units, combinations etc. I'm very open to ideas here! You can see the army I've used previously at 1500 points in my battle reports thread (link is in my signature). Although I found that it worked very well, I'm interested in hearing how you guys would've played it!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Very long time, no see! Let me give you a short update on all things Vindicators related.

I haven't had much time to Warhammer lately, despite being in a Mighty Empires campaign. We're playing in pairs and I'm teamed up with a Wood Elf player. My first match was this Sunday, 1750 points vs Ogre Kingdoms. A bit of poor play and a bit of unluck saw me lose the game by 5 points. I would've posted a proper battle report but have no time at the moment. Anyways, I made two realizations in this game:

- I cannot play with Shadow Magic. There are so many miscast-items in this edition, it's not even funny. Add to that, miscasts are already quite frequent and can have game-changing results. If Shadow holds a small advantage over Life, this is completely negated by Throne. Also, I've tried the unkillable archmage lately and this synergizes real well with Life - I can stick him in a melee unit and really benefit from regeneration. This has the added benefit of leaving my Archers 100% dedicated, not having to babysit.

- The 10-Dragon Princes hammer is too expensive and situational as a stand-alone unit.

As you know, I'm intending to try and make this thing with cavalry work. Long story short, it can only work with the power-prince, in my opinion. Also, it cannot work if you overload the cavalry section. I believe making cavalry a smaller part of my army is crucial to increasing its competitive capabilities. So many things ignore armour saves, have killing blow etc.

Basically, I'll be dropping the Silver Helms. The Prince will go with the Princes. I'm not sure how I want the extra points to play out, nor how I will configure things yet, but this is the general approach I'll take. It'll either see me introducing a Horde of elite infantry or 2 smaller blocks. At the moment I'm most intrigued about the Horde as it can really be devastating with Life. The question is whether they should be Swordmasters or (!!) White Lions.

Feedback appreciated ;) It's good to be back!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Hi Curu

Interesting that you've dropped Shadow, it's very popular and seemed to be working well for you. So it'd be 9 or 10 DP's with the Prince? The Horde is indeed powerful but are you in danger of having too few units then?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
- The 10-Dragon Princes hammer is too expensive and situational as a stand-alone unit.


I think this gibes well with the MSU-build lists... if for no other reason than two units of Dragon Princes for the same points cost forces your opponent to split their fire, allowing the other unit the chance to live long enough to accomplish something. Or got down to a single, small unit to use the points elsewhere.

Quote:
As you know, I'm intending to try and make this thing with cavalry work. Long story short, it can only work with the power-prince, in my opinion. Also, it cannot work if you overload the cavalry section. I believe making cavalry a smaller part of my army is crucial to increasing its competitive capabilities. So many things ignore armour saves, have killing blow etc.

Basically, I'll be dropping the Silver Helms. The Prince will go with the Princes. I'm not sure how I want the extra points to play out, nor how I will configure things yet, but this is the general approach I'll take. It'll either see me introducing a Horde of elite infantry or 2 smaller blocks. At the moment I'm most intrigued about the Horde as it can really be devastating with Life. The question is whether they should be Swordmasters or (!!) White Lions.


It will be interesting to see how you plan to implement these changes. Are you going to use two 5-man DP units as your only cavalry, then? Also, Seredain's been making some changes to his list recently; I (vaguely!) recall your citing him as the inspiration for creating this list in the first place so if you haven't read his blog recently there may be some info in the last 4 or 5 pages you'd find useful - though he's keeping his Silver Helms. ;)

Anyways, if you're going back to using Life my opinion is to go with the Swordmasters in two smaller units. Or one each of Swordmasters and White Lions; however effective Horde infantry may be, I personally find the concept when applied to High Elves to be, well, lame. That said, using Lore of Light with horde White Lions has apparently worked very well and is popular.

Quote:
Feedback appreciated ;) It's good to be back!


I enjoyed reading your blog and battle reports this spring. I was thinking earlier this week that I hadn't seen you post recently, so it's good to see you back!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:50 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Hi Curu

Interesting that you've dropped Shadow, it's very popular and seemed to be working well for you. So it'd be 9 or 10 DP's with the Prince? The Horde is indeed powerful but are you in danger of having too few units then?


Yes, it's an interesting choice going back to Life. I simply cannot deal with the added randomness from Shadow. Miscasts is such a big part of the game, as is spell selection. Apart from going for magic defense through items (staff of solidity etc), Life is the only way to go.

@Macharius - in my opinion no-one can claim to run a cavalry Prince list without being at least partially inspired by Seredain. It was indeed his thread that sparked the interest to try out a cavalryoriented hammer. As it looks now, our lists have become more similar due to each of us changing things closer to the other (I'm dropping one cavalry hammer, he's dropping an RBT and adding the Banner of Sorcery etc).

So anyways, I've been thinking a lot and the new list looks like this:

- The Silver Helms are dropped (+208 points)
- The BSB goes back on foot, with regular combat equipment (+20 points)
- The Phoenix Guard are converted to White Lions, add 13 (!) models including a Champion with the Amulet of Light (-222 points)
- The White Lions and Dragon Princes swap banners (0 points)
- The Archmage swaps the Vortex Shard for Wand, Talisman of Saphery, Folariath's Robe (-20 points)
- The Dragon Princes drop 1 model, and converts the musician to a Drakemaster with 6+ ward save vs war machines (+25 points)

So, army looks roughly like this:

Unkillable Archmage
Cavalry Prince
Foot-combat BSB

35 Spears
2 units of Archers
30 White Lions with flaming, magical attacks
9 Dragon Princes with banner of sorcery

2 Eagles
1 RBT

Mainly, the Archmage will go with the Lions to provide regen. Why White Lions? Well, they hit harder than any other unit, S-wise. In Horde formation, the advantage of the additional attacks of Swordmasters is often lost due to this (though WS6 will sorely be missed). More importantly, it's an easier unit to keep around (better armour save, S4 vs Dwellers, stubborn). Since it's such a big portion of my army now, it's important to keep them alive. S5 mortars will still have to pass a 5+ armour save, perhaps even augmented with regeneration from Olannon.

If my opponent rolls a Life list (e.g. Lizardmen) I need to put the Archmage in a unit of Archers to reduce Dwellers effect. A big advantage in all other cases though is that he can neutralize a fearsome combat character, leaving my Lions free to wreak havoc on their own.

I think this can really work out! Granted, I've dropped one combat unit, but I have more fighting potential than ever: The Prince's bus is stronger, the elite infantry is way hittier and my Archmage can now contribute to close combat efficiently and reliably, through Lifebuffs and neutralizing characters, champions etc.

Those of you who've followed this thread from page 1 and know me from this forum will notice that I've made some rather radical changes:
- I've given up the dual cavalry hammer
- I've taken a unit of White Lions -- the special infantry unit I've always liked the least
- I've gone for the unkillable Archmage - a build I've argued strongly against for a long time

The reasons for this are rather simple:

I cannot make 2 cavalry hammers work the way I want to. Too often, I end up having one of them wishing they were an infantry unit. Getting one good flank is easy, getting two is hard. As such I have simply decided to remove one and make the other elements stronger. White Lions over Swordmasters boil down to 3 things: 1. They survive better against both dwellers and shooting. This is a very important aspect as this unit will be very important and needs to be as tough and reliable as possible, while still dishing out hurt. 2. In horde formation the extra attack of swordmasters is outweighed by the extra strength of white lions. 3. Although I suppose it will rarely be of much importance, the unit is stubborn. This could come in handy. Even against small frontage units I get 22 asf S6 attacks, nothing to take lightly. With Life, I will hopefully be able to keep this unit close to maximum potential at all times.

Lastly, the unkillable archmage is for flexibility and unit protection. A lot of armies struggle to deal magic damage, meaning I can play the archmage as I want, where I want, in whatever unit fits best. The added possibility of taking out a fighty character is really useful. I have tried the robe setup in 2 recent games and I am rather happy with how it works out. With Life, placement relative to the enemy is not as important as it is with Shadows, but getting the regen Where I Want It is crucial.

So, what do you think about this new, radical approach?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Curu

You're not messing about are you?

:)

You've got two horribly strong units, adding the option of Regen on the Lions is just the icing on the cake. I guess you may find your eagles working overtime to get you the combats you want but lots of things are just going to bounce off those units.

It's not hard to see why White Lions are the elite infantry of choice in many competitive lists. Certainly there's a place for PG and Swordmasters but Lions have lots to recommend them. I really like the idea of using Earthblood, it makes your spell selection more forgiving IMHO. You need a durable wizard to do this properly.

I think experience is no respecter of opinions. Like you I'm surprised at what it's teaching me and list grow in strange ways.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:25 am 
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Curu,

While I can see the reasoning behind your new list, I think it has one definite flaw: it focuses the army's points (and strength) in two units. This means that if your opponent can deal with these or delay them, and win the battle. Plus some spells are just too dangerous even to a big unit like your white lions. In your old list you had target saturation and a lot of synergy between units, here that seems to disappear and you rely on pure killing power in your two hammer units.

That said, I can see why you made those changes and I can see it working. An advantage is that it'll be very hard for your opponents to get all the points from those big hammer units, for example. It'll just take some different tactics. Let us know how it goes!

Oh and a question: I'm note sure if this is discussed elsewhere, I searched for it and didn't find it. But just how unkillable is the archmage combo you're using? A fellow HE player in my group told me that magic weapons count as normal weapons in hth with him, so that he can't be killed at all in combat. Others tell me that those weapons still produce magical close combat attacks and thus can harm him, even if all other effects of the magic weapon are ignored...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:42 pm 
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cisse wrote:
A fellow HE player in my group told me that magic weapons count as normal weapons in hth with him, so that he can't be killed at all in combat. Others tell me that those weapons still produce magical close combat attacks and thus can harm him, even if all other effects of the magic weapon are ignored...

The combo is a good one. The interpretation of your fellow HE player is the one I see widely accepted. The Talisman of Saphery doesn't just make magical weapons lose special effects--it goes a step further and says that the magic weapon is treated "as a NORMAL one of the same type". Normal weapons don't have magical attacks.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:11 pm 
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Interesting twist. Which army do you want to face for our next game? I'm of a mind to test a rather nasty Daemons list, but that will leave you're unkillable archmage...killed, in short order. Magic attacks, everywhere. On the contrary, your new list is even more horrible to wood elves than the last setup, so WE might not be the best test vessel/victim.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:44 pm 
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@SpellArcher - I really am trying to make this cavalry thing work, simple as. Since I do not believe dual hammers are competitively viable, I have tried to go for a more optimized approach with a single cavalry hammer. So I guess I am not messing around ;)

@cisse - the flaw of dropping a unit also sees me gain advantages given that I am going with life. What good is it to have 2x15 elites, give one unit +4T, only to see the second crash hard? Life synergizes better with bigger units. Also, remember that my spears with bsb can be gamebreaking (ref my first battle vs kholek). Bolt thrower summed up the archmage build pretty well.

@rusty - I do not mind not playing Wood Elves since this list is close to your worst HE nightmare. That being said, I am not particularly keen on Daemons either since they are basically just broken. Do you have anything else to field?

So as some of you may have realized, I agreed with Rusty to play a 2500 pts game to get a feel for the new army. It will probably happen in 2 weeks time. I also have a 2000 pts campaign game coming up, and this sort of list is way easier to reduce by 500 points. Anyways, I am hoping to get to play some 2500 pts games again soon, and I promise reports as well ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:45 pm 
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@rusty - the daemons list have lost there all magical attacks so AM is just as unkilly as before.

At Curu - Not sure i like the changes, but can see them working. But wandering, have you tried to play your old list versus your new list to see the major changes effect your play style? I like have mutliply units that combine for success. The all the eggs is a popular set up with a few players i have faced, and all of these lists have been swept aside by the manuverable and flexiable of a combined armed list.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:25 am 
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@akielzather - Reference? Daemons without magic attacks are (good) news to me.

@Curu - Dropping the musician on DP? Won't that seriously affect manouverability?
In addition to WE and DoC I can field DoW, Dw, VC and TK. Or just play Storm of Magic and bring a mix of monsters :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:24 pm 
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An interesting change in approach and good to see you've based it on a decent amount of in-game experience. I too tried the dual cav. hammer but didn't much like the way it played. I am currently in a similar position to you but with a foot prince and BSB in a large unit of PG (they increase damage output massively!) and my archmage (life) in the obligatory spearmen block to give them some chance in CC against any other units by casting earthblood, etc. I use a unit of 10 DPs with the PoStr. on the champ as my solitary cav. hammer and they are awesome. Last game I blew away a unit of Khorne Knights with them and them chewed up some Chosen to boot.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:19 am 
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I am noticing a few disappointed opinions on my list changes. My guess is that this is due to my list evolving to a more standard type of warhammer army, as opposed to its more original starting point. This is simply due to me trying to get the cavalry prince to work, since it is such a unique element in a high elf army. If that cannot be done, I promise that I will try another, original approach.

For now though, let us see if this iteration can work in a competitive environment.

@rusty - vc would be interesting :-) same for tk

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:49 pm 
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VC means "Very Competitive" and TK "Totally Killingblowing", right :wink:
I'll see if I'm able to make an interesting undead list, but otherwise I'll try out dwarfs for variety's sake.

You're White lions are vulnerable to asbestos-clad characters, but otherwise this looks solid. You will have to take good care of your eagles though, without them you will be outmanouvered.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:15 pm 
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rusty wrote:
You're White lions are vulnerable to asbestos-clad characters

Agree with this, it's a bit committal.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:38 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
rusty wrote:
You're White lions are vulnerable to asbestos-clad characters

Agree with this, it's a bit committal.


What is that? Remember i got the archmage and life magic...

I am not 100% up to date on all the newest books

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:25 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
rusty wrote:
You're White lions are vulnerable to asbestos-clad characters


He means, characters with a 2+ ward save vs. Flaming. There are a couple new items in 8th that give you this on the cheap, and I think they're pretty popular.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:53 am 
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Yep. Dragonbane gem costs 5 pts, and I usually try to have it or similar in every army, just for those occasions where it's really useful.

I'm wondering whether you should swap banner of sorcery and banner of eternal flame. Dragon princes might be a better bet for hunting regenerating and/or flaming monsters. Although that makes your WL less able to autokill Drakenhoff Grave Guard, they aren't vulnerable to being tied up by a flying character with crown of command and dragonbane gem. Decisions, decisions :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:54 am 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Oh ok, point taken. That being said though, I do not see any common flying tarpitting characters apart from DE around, not in our metagame and not generally competitive. DE has his saves regardless. Do you really think this is big issue? I am rating being able to negate regen way more, what with monsters, drakenhoff, temple guard life slann etc.

If you all really think that this is a biggie, I will stop to reconsider. The same applies if I experience big problems too.

For my 2000pts games coming up I will be removing the Prince, dropping some core and reduce the Dragon Princes to a naked 5, giving the Sorcery Banner to the Lions. The first game is up this sunday, vs OnG. Second one is next wednesday vs WoC. The last time I played him he fielded 2 marauder hordes and dual hellcannons, but that was at 2500 and I believe he is fond of his chosen, as well as disc mounted wizards. Could be tricky but with Life back up again I believe I have a decent chance.

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Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Hey Curu, are you going to the 2d6 Challenge tournament?

http://www.2d6.no/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8224


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:41 am 
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Vindicated Strategist
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No can do Chayal, I am busy that week-end. I have yet to paint rather big portions of my army as well.

I would really like some feedback from the more experienced people around here, particularly tournament veterans, about what you think about my flaming White Lions.

Regards,
Olannon

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:55 am 
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Well played Sir
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Your biggest combat block has flaming attacks, this means they can be tarpitted easier, I prefer my flamming banner on a smaller unit designed for hunting.

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