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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Hey guys, and Curu.

Was very interested to see all of your opinions on Phoenix Guard and how well they synergize with Shadow.

Not to derail, but I need to ask you pros, is it possible to play a competitive list focusing on Phoenix Guard and Shadow magic? I'm considering something like two units of 20 Phoenix Guard to form the backbone, but I'm not sure if that completely negates the need for Spearmen, which like many have said work much the same and fill a Core requirement instead. To fill out the Specials, Dragon Princes, and some MSU units of Sword Masters or Lions?

Seems like the topic is kind of Phoenix Guard lately here so I just through I'd grab an opinion or two from some great players.

I've also learned from this thread that an Archmage with a Silver Wand is really all that's needed to dominate the magic phase! 270 points, yes please!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:32 pm 
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@ SpellArcher - I've only faced Daemons once but I definitely believe we have the tools necessary to give them a proper fight.

@ Shinzou - I can't recall a single game I played where the 2nd rank mattered. The short answer is yes, it's doable to reduce their size. Most of the time though, it gets easy reducing them below 5, such that you do not get a Look out, Sir! roll. I have thought of a smaller bus myself but I don't think this is the answer to my problems.

@ YoungKing - I really believe this is doable. If I can't make this cavalry-thing work, that'll be my next army theme. I suppose there's a number of ways to configure such a list. If you remove Spearmen totally you could find that removing Steadfast could be a problem.

@ Brewmaster_D - Thanks for a very thorough read-through of my evaluation and a tweak suggestion! I'll get back to your points later, I just have to consider a few things first ;) One thing that struck me which you mentioned is how the army has little margin for error. This is, in my opinion, not a good trait with any list. I do agree however, and I'm contemplating how the army list design in particular can improve upon this weak spot. At the moment I'm tempted to drop the Helms and make a DP-bus. The problem then is two-fold: I want the BSB back on foot but I want to keep a 2nd mage. Given these requirements, I find it hard to replace a cavalry hammer with something useful which contributes to stability and has a clear purpose.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:51 am 
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2 Dragon Prince units, I told you so!
Too bad I don't have time to spent for writing battle reports. Last game was a Draw vs Ogre kingdoms (Which my opponent played very well :) ). Maybe it is an idea to run movement banner on your spears again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:13 am 
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YoungKing wrote:
Not to derail, but I need to ask you pros, is it possible to play a competitive list focusing on Phoenix Guard and Shadow magic? I'm considering something like two units of 20 Phoenix Guard to form the backbone, but I'm not sure if that completely negates the need for Spearmen, which like many have said work much the same and fill a Core requirement instead. To fill out the Specials, Dragon Princes, and some MSU units of Sword Masters or Lions?


It should be noted I've never tried this, but it would seem to me that the type of build your suggesting wouldn't necessarily be focused on killing your opponent so much as outlasting them. Basically your list would be designed to force your opponent to grind themselves down on your infantry while you debuff their army. It could certainly be a viable build, but don't expect it to be winning through sheer power. More along the lines of your opponent running out of steam and being unable to finish you off (which is certainly a legitimate tactic).

Basically you'd run a brick style army. Slow, but durable, and moving as one. Your opponents lines would smash into yours and you'll probably stay in that same spot for the rest of the game as the enemy slowly wears themselves out.

I say try it out and give us some nice battle reports! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:29 am 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Maybe it is an idea to run movement banner on your spears again.

This sounds good. Movement banner and bsb together to be able to fast get into place and to be able to reach the enemy with magic.

And as someone else said: if you don't want to lose the shard, why not take a shadow-bsb. Range of 48 with the signature spell would do a good mage, and it could also do you a favor of getting the spells you want for the lvl4? Even the other spells has a good range if you have the dice to cast them on the upgraded level.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:17 pm 
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I’m a tremendous fan of your batreps, and really appreciate your tactical reflections/insight just as much as the breakdown of what actually took place. I think that the decision-making process for batreps is just as fascinating as what took place, and I appreciate that you take the time to present those thoughts.

I also like your competitive breakdown of the strong lists available to High Elves. I have to say, I’m not sold on the cavalry build. I like Elven cavalry, and regularly run 7-10 Dragon Princes, but I also don’t know that a combat Prince does enough on his own to justify a rather expensive delivery system for getting him there. From the perspective of magic, I find that it’s much easier to take hard-hitting infantry and make them durable, than it is to take durable cavalry and make them hard-hitting. We can stack overlaying survivability spells with ease, and those spells are useful versus magic, shooting and combat, whereas offensive augment spells tend to be more rare and only useful for a couple critical rounds of combat. With that in mind, I like focusing on hard-hitting infantry who will deliver consistent murder in every round of combat while receiving survivability, rather than the other way around.

What direction do you think you’ll take your lists in now?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
2 Dragon Prince units, I told you so!
Too bad I don't have time to spent for writing battle reports. Last game was a Draw vs Ogre kingdoms (Which my opponent played very well :) ). Maybe it is an idea to run movement banner on your spears again.


I'd have loved to read that report! I guess real life sometimes trumps the internet though, which is fair enough.

I agree with RogueSun's assessment of a Phoenix Guard oriented force. The question is if you can provide enough hitting power either through characters, other units or magic to avoid the really long grinds, which even PG cannot win.

Shinzou wrote:
And as someone else said: if you don't want to lose the shard, why not take a shadow-bsb. Range of 48 with the signature spell would do a good mage, and it could also do you a favor of getting the spells you want for the lvl4? Even the other spells has a good range if you have the dice to cast them on the upgraded level.


Yes. If you read the first thread in this post, you'll see that I've already edited the list to having Shadow on the BSB.

Tethlis wrote:
I’m a tremendous fan of your batreps, and really appreciate your tactical reflections/insight just as much as the breakdown of what actually took place. I think that the decision-making process for batreps is just as fascinating as what took place, and I appreciate that you take the time to present those thoughts.


Thanks, taking the time to draw up the diagrams and provide my thoughts in a clear manner forces myself to re-think decisions as well. I frequently go back and re-evaluate my own reports - in these cases I'm especially glad that I noted more than the pure facts. Good to see that you guys find it interesting as well!

Tethlis wrote:
I also like your competitive breakdown of the strong lists available to High Elves. I have to say, I’m not sold on the cavalry build. I like Elven cavalry, and regularly run 7-10 Dragon Princes, but I also don’t know that a combat Prince does enough on his own to justify a rather expensive delivery system for getting him there.


This is what I'm kind of starting to agree with. Mostly though, I think a unit of 10 Dragon Princes is performing very well. As you can see from my army evaluation post, the Silver Helms have indeed disappointed me. I find myself asking if 10 Dragon Princes, perhaps with a fighty Prince, is the approach to take. In this case, the unit won't really be a delivery system as such, which the Silver Helms very much are at the moment.

Tethlis wrote:
From the perspective of magic, I find that it’s much easier to take hard-hitting infantry and make them durable, than it is to take durable cavalry and make them hard-hitting. We can stack overlaying survivability spells with ease, and those spells are useful versus magic, shooting and combat, whereas offensive augment spells tend to be more rare and only useful for a couple critical rounds of combat. With that in mind, I like focusing on hard-hitting infantry who will deliver consistent murder in every round of combat while receiving survivability, rather than the other way around.


There's a couple of problems with this approach:
1. We always have Spearelves as core. These are never killy on their own, ever. Granted, they can be made durable.
2. Survivability magic is often easy to prioritize against, since we don't have uber-units for the Lore of Life. Wood Elves for example are much better off here - do you dispel Flesh to Stone on his Treekin or Regrowth? With Lifebloom and the cost per wound for these models, it's a way better spell than it is for any elven unit.

I seem to remember you packing Shadows and Swordmasters the last time you played a hard list - vs Dark Elves. Surely, this is going for maximum damage output and pay no heed to defense? I see Light and Life as our primary defensive lores, arguably High Magic also. Do you play these lores frequently in competitive environments?

Tethlis wrote:
What direction do you think you’ll take your lists in now?


I'm kind of undecided. I want to make this list harder. I believe that, even with a cavalry Prince approach, it's sub-optimal. At the same time, I don't want to cheese out and I want it to still feel unique. The most interesting thought at the moment is de-mounting the BSB since the standard kit is so good and have the Prince with the Dragon Princes. Ditching the Silver Helms gives me points for a decent unit of elite infantry. The problem with this is that I'll lose the second mage. I could keep the bsb mounted of course and have him, too, with the Dragon Princes. This does create one rather big and expensive unit though. Thus far, this hasn't really been a problem. It does make for a very tasty Dwellers target, but I suppose that in a lot of cases where this is a problem I can leave one or both characters right next to the unit instead of inside of it.

While I'm pondering this approach in particular, I find myself asking which unit of elite infantry I would rather include, and how to form it up. Assuming I drop the Silver Helms and the Repeater, I have enough points for 21. A solid block of 7x3 Swordmasters indeed sounds very tempting. Will this unit provide me with what I need though? Would 2 semi-big blocks of Phoenix Guard be better, or perhaps I'll even eat my former words and try a unit of White Lions?

Thoughts on this matter are very welcome! Please, also provide the math to show how it adds up :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:06 pm 
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In my opinion, double miasma is better defense against heavy shooting than flesh to stone. This is because flesh to stone only helps one of your units, and since you don't have a single uber unit all that will happen is the opponent will shoot at other stuff in your list and the spell actually achieves very little (especially as its often a better idea to shoot the other stuff in the list in most games and one of the advantages of big scary units is the way they draw fire that should be going at the chariots and redirectors). Miasma reduces the effectiveness of a shooting unit against any target and now that people are tending to take big units of shooters, it has become really handy in these cases.

Also, if you happen to be fighting an enemy low on shooting, miasma is still a very useful spell, whereas flesh to stone (if you rolled it) can be relatively useless in some turns and mindrazor skews a combat as much as flesh does though in a very different way (and the -d3 strength spell is better defensively than an equivalent increase in toughness)

In all i'm in favour of shadow with high elves.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Double miasma... Often times, War Machines are our most crucial threat. Against armies with big shooters though, miasma is definitely a good defensive spell. In my recent game against Daemons it really saved my units a lot against Flamers.

I'll go ahead and answer my own question from the last post as I've tinkered around a bit with the units, choices etc available:

Dropping the Helms, the Repeater and 2 Dragon Princes (making them 10 big with Prince + BSB) gives me 368 points. It becomes crucial to include a Drakemaster to avoid unwanted challenges. He'll take the Ironcurse Icon, for obvious reasons. That leaves 343 points. Assuming a unit of 21 elites, that's 315 points. The remaining 28 points combine perfectly to take a standard bearer (+12 points) with the movement banner (+15 points).

So - the question remains - which unit would you take?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:28 pm 
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On the shadows front you have pit which kills warmachnes, whereas theres less option in life (i don't know what dwellers does to warmachines off the top of my head but its still a waste of a dwellers)

Given that you'll be taking 21 elites with the movement banner, i'd be taking white lions (with the rerolls and supporting attacks rules, they are now significantly superior to swordmasters) or possibly phoenix guard (a unit which holds charges is useful in a list like yours, as you have flank charging threats in the princes). Phoenix guard are an interesting unit as they tend to beat units with more ranks than them and be steadfast against expensive units.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Here is my thinking if your intention is to move down to 1 unit of cavalry:

What is the marginal benefit of having a prince at this point? That is to say, what does the 280 someodd points you spend on him provide you?

1. It upgrades 2 attacks to S7, and adds 2 more of his own (he displaces a DP)
2. It gives you a tough character capable of taking down most 3 wound lords in one round of combat
3. It gives you versatility in the form of scattering the unit, sending the various components after different targets
4. 1 higher leadership, but generally just for the cavalry unit

Now, assuming you go with your plan to put in the Mage Noble, that unit already boasts 14 S5 WS5 and 3 S6, WS6. Does it really need the improved hitting power? I guess it depends on your goal for the unit, but with your shift to increasing your number of infantry, I don't see why you need so many points in one spot.

Perhaps drop the prince and use the points you save to upgrade in other areas. Maybe another Repeater Bolt Thrower to improve your shooting phase? I've always been a proponent of "two or bust" regarding these things. 2 bolt throwers, 25 archers and an archmage with The Withering could really be a sight to behold!

When you drop down to one unit of cavalry, you now need to rely a lot more on your infantry for support, and as such your dynamic shifts a bit from blitz tactics to more "trap setting" strategies. In other words you use the monstrous charge range and scary hitting potential of that cavalry unit to create combo charge opportunities - much like I use my unit of 5 Dragon Princes. Yours would just be... scarier :twisted:

I do, however, feel that with a full unit of Dragon Princes and two characters in a unit, you're going to provide too rich of a target, and that unit will tend to be focused.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:29 pm 
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I've been thinking about an infantry list with two big blocks of Specials, as in 20-25, and I can't help but think a 20-25 strong unit of Phoenix Guard depending on the points size, and something along the lines of 18-21 White Lions would go great together. I was originally thinking two units of PG, but I think the White Lions would add a lot to the army and to the blocks of Spearmen and Phoenix Guard holding the line, with Shadow of course.

Shadow buffs can concentrate on the PG and Spears, and the Lions are dangerous regardless. They have a good save versus shooting and won't be going anywhere, especially with the BsB near! Doesn't seem to give the opponent many options, either:
1. Take on the 4+ Ward save LD 9 Phoenix Guard and get a hex on you to boot.
2. Go for 35 Spearmen who will probably be sitting at strength 8.
3. Charge the guys who are strength 6 regardless and are Stubborn.

If your main line is say, 21 White Lions, 24 PG with a BsB, and 35 Spearmen, what are the best options for supporting that? Would spending the points on 2 RBTs, 25 archers, 2 Eagles, and the Archmage work? Or five naked Dragon Princes, some Eagles, Archmage and Noble be better?

I think this might be the direction I head in, I'm still a newb so this idea is basically from what I've read here and theory, but what do you think of White Lions Curu, and others, in this scenario?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:42 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:

I seem to remember you packing Shadows and Swordmasters the last time you played a hard list - vs Dark Elves. Surely, this is going for maximum damage output and pay no heed to defense? I see Light and Life as our primary defensive lores, arguably High Magic also. Do you play these lores frequently in competitive environments?


That is correct, but it was more of an experiment than an established approach to how I play the game. Basically, your assessment right there was dead on; the offensive components of Shadows (Pit, Mindrazor) plus the offensive nature of Swordmasters (choppy choppy) meant that it was easy to blast through my opponent. However, as I recall, one cast of Soulstealer and one repeater crossbow shooting phase took my Swordmasters down to command models only. It was a very clear example of what full-throttle offense can achieve, but also shows how heavily Swordmasters rely on magic to offset their already powerful killing ability. I decided after that game that Shadows alone was a very risky proposition for Swordmasters, especially against any opponent with either template warmachines or respectable horde infantry that could do damage and stick in place for some time. Since then, I've been working more with Life, and plan to try Light in the near future to see if they seem more useful.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:04 am 
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YoungKing wrote:
I was originally thinking two units of PG

I don't think two units of PG gets the best out of this unit. They are best used in combination with other more killy units as an anvil or a roadblock that can pretty much always last at least a couple of turns. I like your idea of playing PG with WLs or other and trying to get off some combo moves.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:24 am 
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geoguswrek wrote:
On the shadows front you have pit which kills warmachnes, whereas theres less option in life (i don't know what dwellers does to warmachines off the top of my head but its still a waste of a dwellers)


Good point, indeed. The fact remains though that proper prioritizing should see a dangerous pit scrolled/dispelled. This is the problem with defense - it often doesn't come with redundancy.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Hey Curu,

Here is my thinking if your intention is to move down to 1 unit of cavalry:

What is the marginal benefit of having a prince at this point? That is to say, what does the 280 someodd points you spend on him provide you?

1. It upgrades 2 attacks to S7, and adds 2 more of his own (he displaces a DP)
2. It gives you a tough character capable of taking down most 3 wound lords in one round of combat
3. It gives you versatility in the form of scattering the unit, sending the various components after different targets
4. 1 higher leadership, but generally just for the cavalry unit

Now, assuming you go with your plan to put in the Mage Noble, that unit already boasts 14 S5 WS5 and 3 S6, WS6. Does it really need the improved hitting power? I guess it depends on your goal for the unit, but with your shift to increasing your number of infantry, I don't see why you need so many points in one spot.

Perhaps drop the prince and use the points you save to upgrade in other areas. Maybe another Repeater Bolt Thrower to improve your shooting phase? I've always been a proponent of "two or bust" regarding these things. 2 bolt throwers, 25 archers and an archmage with The Withering could really be a sight to behold!

When you drop down to one unit of cavalry, you now need to rely a lot more on your infantry for support, and as such your dynamic shifts a bit from blitz tactics to more "trap setting" strategies. In other words you use the monstrous charge range and scary hitting potential of that cavalry unit to create combo charge opportunities - much like I use my unit of 5 Dragon Princes. Yours would just be... scarier :twisted:

I do, however, feel that with a full unit of Dragon Princes and two characters in a unit, you're going to provide too rich of a target, and that unit will tend to be focused.


As usual, you make a lot of good points which forces me to reconsider and elaborate on my thoughts.

The original thinking is that I'm happy with the Dragon Princes but not with the Silver Helms. The Prince has performed admirably in most games. So, why not combine them? The bsb is simply mounted to be allowed to be a mage. Long story short - I want a back-up mage and better spell selection. Having him on foot with Gem of Hoeth gives me a 4+ armour save at the best - not viable.

As for the all your eggs in one basket - this is indeed my biggest concern. However, where it's crucial that I don't let them all die in one fell swoop, I can usually run the Prince out on his own. Against Slann Lizardmen where I fear Dwellers for example, there's no danger involved with splitting out the characters. I've also found that at the moment, running the Prince and BSB in the Silver Helms, they rarely receive so much damage that it's a real threat to be honest. Now, if I do follow through with this approach, I'll have one big unit of elites, the Phoenix Guard and the Spearelves block. I also have the vortex shard for that crucial magic-blocker right before charges hit home.

So - your main point - the marginal benefit of the Prince. First of all, I want to really make the cavalry approach work. That is my main reason for not abandoning this. If I fail, I'll be more than happy to say I tried but it didn't work. Now, what does he provide that others don't? In the games I've had so far, he's able to reliably put the hurt on almost anything sent in his direction. He is also a monster combat-res-wise if he can get stuck in a favourable melee. Although this is 280 points, it's 280 points giving me a lot of flexibility. Now, I'm primarily thinking of the hard lists, what do we often see? Hellcannons, Hydras, Treemen... The world is full of monsters. These things REALLY hurt my infantry bad and my cavalry's only good for one turn of combat - when they're charging. The downsides I see: killing blow really makes it hard for him, the really tough monsters (ridden Dragons, Greater Daemons) are usually too much for him, sniping spells and items can quickly neutralize him. You may be right that although he's a great fighter, the full cost of including him and making an effective list based around him is simply too high. This does remain to be seen however. I'll drop down to one-hammer-approach and see if I can make this work.

YoungKing wrote:
If your main line is say, 21 White Lions, 24 PG with a BsB, and 35 Spearmen, what are the best options for supporting that? Would spending the points on 2 RBTs, 25 archers, 2 Eagles, and the Archmage work? Or five naked Dragon Princes, some Eagles, Archmage and Noble be better?

I think this might be the direction I head in, I'm still a newb so this idea is basically from what I've read here and theory, but what do you think of White Lions Curu, and others, in this scenario?


I'm not the right guy to ask about White Lions ;) That being said, I do believe the main line you proposed sounds very solid. The White Lions can operate very well without magical support but still receive major benefits from Miasma and Enfeebling. I think it's important to have this flexibility as I don't believe in anything relying 100% on something else to work properly. As for support - cheap archmage, archers, eagles is pretty much mandatory. An additional noble is a waste of points in my opinion. A secondary mage could be worth taking a look at - for example for annulian's and a second lore (Beasts or High would augment the list very nicely!). I agree with John Rainbow that the idea of getting off combo moves sounds good. Most of the successful battles we have rely upon these moments. If you look careful at hard-earned victories in the battle reports collection, you'll see that the 'chess element' of the game often wins us the battle ;)

Tethlis wrote:
... I decided after that game that Shadows alone was a very risky proposition for Swordmasters, especially against any opponent with either template warmachines or respectable horde infantry that could do damage and stick in place for some time. Since then, I've been working more with Life, and plan to try Light in the near future to see if they seem more useful.


Oh ok, didn't know that. Do you still run Book of Hoeth though? I suppose that would help a lot with regards to my main problem with Life - how easy it is for an opponent to prioritize against it. Light does hold a lot of potential, too! RogueSun seems to be doing very well with it.

So - for my Elite Infantry unit: I've decided against Phoenix Guard since I believe it'll work against its intended purpose. Basically, in a few of the games I've had I've felt that my Cavalry's simply been in the way for my infantry. In this way, an infantry block would be better, allowing a single hammer to circle around. So, to fulfil this role, I need something that hits hard and doesn't rely upon magic. Question is - will Swordmasters or White Lions fulfil this role best? I recognize the damage output of the Swordmasters, with WS6 they'll just pile on so many hits and really chop through infantry. However, I also recognize their fragility (see my games against Wood Elves and Lizardmen in particular). This is why I'm also considering White Lions. Now, I haven't worked out the math yet, but I'm pretty sure that they're roughly equal against heavy things (factoring in 2 ranks and the Swordmasters usually taking more casualties) but worse against basic infantry. Miasma can effectively mitigate the WS difference, while Enfeebling helps me last longer.

What does this army as a whole need most?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Take swordmasters. As I see it, the main advantage of white lions is stubborn, allowing them to be both a hammer and an anvil, so to speak, while swordmasters are pure hammer. The extra survivability of lions versus shooting is negligible 75% of the time, at least in my own experience. Anyway, your list has plenty of anvil with PG and spears. It needs more hitting power.

Also, on the DP bus, I would not do 8 + 2 characters. Think about it. The front rank only has 3 dp's in it, so only 3 of those 8 would get the 2 attacks that make them so good. The back 5 function exactly like silver helms, but cost 9 more points each. Deploying them like that seems like a waste

I love dp buses. I run one myself (2 at 3k). But I do it 7 dps (deployed wide) with 1 character. Works awesome


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Curu: don't forget the option of -d3 toughness on a warmachine and then you can actually kill it with shooting.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Hello there curu and you other guys. I don't know if you aware of this curu, but we play in the same gaming group. The reason you haven't met me is that I'm currently in Africa, and have been since February. I also play High Elves and have most likely faced the same armies as you. I like your approach to the HE cavalry list very much and I'm looking foreward to hopefully play with/against you when our club reopens in august. 

Concerning your army list and your current questions I have a few remarks. Before I left for Africa I was playing an all infantry army that was something like this ( changed a few things from time to time):

AM lvl 4: silver wand (life)
BSB: GP, AoC

14 archers: musician
11 archers
35 speramen: FC and cheap banner of reroll first failed something

24 PG: razor standard
14 SM: FC, banner of sorcery
14 SM, bladelord, ToL
12 WL: FC, flame banner

2 rbi
Eagle

This is just out from my memory so might be a bit of pointwise (intended to be 2500). Anyways, I had a lot of success with this list and lost maybe one game. This is of course far from what you are looking at but filling those 340 points could easily be done by some of the units from this list. The unit of 24 PG has actually never died. They can take on almost anything ( joined by the BSB). Also any combination of the three other special units can be a good choice. Ofcourse it depends on what you want the unit to do, but I think its important to consider that the unit must be able to suit different roles. The PG is a bunker, but it can also hit hard enough ( with the proper support or augment spell) to be a tanks, if you know what I mean. 

When first 8 th edition was released my list was much more cavalry focused than the one above. But I also slowly turned towards using more and more infantry elites. The problem you will most likely be facing when only having one unit of elites (I know you have 10 DP, but people tend to be more scared of the infantry blocks) is that they will be focus point for the enemy. This might of course be good as it keeps the attention away from other units. But since you say you don't like putting all eggs in one basket I would strongly recommend splitting the points. More units means more targets for shooting and magic, witch is something I think is an advantage for HE. Anyways my point is: our elites are very good (this includes the DP), but also very fragile. By having several units of medium size you are more likely to to be able to utilise their strenghts. Maybe decreasing the number of DP to 5-8 to free points for two medium size infantry elites with some nice gear. 

Maybe this wasn't much of help Curu. Either way I'm looking foreword to exchanging experience with you when I return. Say hello to the other guys at the club btw, if it's not already closed for the summer.

Odin


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:29 am 
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An anticipated battle HE vs HE, Infantry vs Cavalry, Life vs Shadow?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Hi mate!

I´ve just realized that I already had a Login at Ulthuannet. :lol: From a very interesting internet campaign.

Well, I´ve commented your blog on warseer already, so this is just to give you a thumbs up for the excellent BRs and discussions.

But I must say that I liked your original concept better. The list seems to be drifting to an excessive focus on getting the buffs in combat, particularly with mindrazor, and I find this one-trick poney tactic rather boring. And risky. Magic is and should remain support, not something your tactic has to rely on. One think I liked a lot about your blog was precisely that it challenged internet wisdom and its reduction of diversity in armylists and gameplay. HE infantry is awesome, but cavalry has its own, often overseen strenghts, in mobility, speed, movement and space control, the ability to readapt and change the point of gravity of the army etc. But you know all that. Just some feedback and support.

Cheers!

PS: death to the Asuryan traitors! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:49 am 
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Lots of interesting replies!

@Vala.r.aukar - I think I'll follow your advice and start with Swordmasters. If I find that they do not suffice, I'll try White Lions instead. As usual, I'll give them at least 5 games. About the Dragon Princes bus, you make a good point. However, it's also about the WS, I, LD and save boost. It seems like everyone sports flaming attacks and there's plenty of breath weapons around. I just can't seem to justify the Helms at their cost. I will consider it though.

@geoguswrek - very good point! This certainly helped thinning out against Warriors of Chaos with his miasma'd warriors block.

@Odin - I heard some rumours that a fellow High Elf player at Wartrond was away in Africa. I suppose that must've been you ;) Regarding multi-purpose elite infantry, I totally agree. I find that my current unit of 18ish Phoenix Guard does this very well: they can anvil up, beat smaller units with ease and become true monsters with Shadow. The reason I've chosen Swordmasters initially is because I believe they are a better allround unit than White Lions. For example, while they fair fairly equal against hard elites, the Swordmasters are just so much better at cutting down rank-n-file. If I do find their survivability to be low, I'll try White Lions instead. A plus with either of these 2 options is that they can work fairly well without magical support. Regarding reducing the size of the Dragon Princes - I believe this gives too little protection for my characters, at least as long as there's 2 of them there! I do however see the 7DP + 1 character as a very viable option.

@Tupinamba - I appreciate the honesty. In a way, I agree. It's just that I find that wielding 2 cavalry hammers ironically often limits my options. As I've written in my thread about High Elf Army List Design I believe consistency is one of the most important things with this army. With the 2 cavalry hammers, I feel that consistency is situational - good opponents will make the good charges so much harder to get off. When this happens, they suffer so much compared to infantry. In my most recent game against Daemons for example, a big unit of Swordmasters or White Lions would've made the Bloodthirster think twice before jumping into the middle of my ranks. Getting a flank charge on a big cavalry unit is exactly where he wants to be though. I disagree about the magical focus though, as I believe Life spells are often times more crucial to get off than Shadow. In the games I've had so far with Shadow, I've only had one game where mindrazor was game-breaking: the first match against Wood Elves. What I do find about this lore though is the redundancy - often times it won't matter if I get off Enfeebling, Withering or Okkam's. You can't defend against it all!

One thing which bother me is the 'need' for the bsb as a mage. I really consider a second mage rather necessary for redundancy and spell selection. The only real alternative I have, the way I see it, is to make the Prince a mage knight and put the BSB back on foot. While this changes the Prince's role drastically, perhaps to the point where he's simply too expensive for what he does, it seems like an interesting idea at the moment. The equipment would thus be the Radiant Gem, Helm of Fortune, Great Weapon, for starters. Seeing as he's a mage, I could take another arcane item for the remaining points.

Oh the possibilities! Anyways, looks like I won't get too much gaming going in a little while now. I do, however, intend to paint quite a bit more so expect to see more pictures etc in the next couple of weeks. I appreciate the ongoing discussion about the army list changes though - I'm really unsure of where to go as I want the list to be unique, fun to play and competitive, without being downright cheesy or min-max.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:03 am 
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Quote:
One thing which bother me is the 'need' for the bsb as a mage. I really consider a second mage rather necessary for redundancy and spell selection. The only real alternative I have, the way I see it, is to make the Prince a mage knight and put the BSB back on foot. While this changes the Prince's role drastically, perhaps to the point where he's simply too expensive for what he does, it seems like an interesting idea at the moment. The equipment would thus be the Radiant Gem, Helm of Fortune, Great Weapon, for starters. Seeing as he's a mage, I could take another arcane item for the remaining points.



actually i had the same problem in my list. had an archmage a combat prince and a bsb (both mounted and in helms) but i felt i needed another mage (when you fail a spell and for the extra arcane slot)

so today i tried out a list where the prince was a mageknight on a steed with gem, GW, dragonhelm and luckstone, and a scroll as my arcane item.
i also had an archmage with anullian crystal. this gave me a potent magic offense (with banner of sorcery) and a very nice magic defense where i can control most magic phases with more, equal or only one less die than the opponent. and still got the scroll to control a crucial magic phase/ stop an important spell. i've played a lot with the vortex shard before and i think this setup is more flexible and almost as safe (the exception being IF on a crucial spell)

still not really decided on the lores though, shadow is obviously awesome, but not certain on the lvl1 (beast, heavens, death, high and metal, all being contenders), but i'd say try the "mage-knight- back-up-caddy" :mrgreen:

cheers,

J

edit:
(ofcourse you can still make the prince more formidable in combat by giving him helm of fortune or dragonhelm/dawstone or gauntlets +luckstone. just didnt have the points in my list and the helm of fortune was used on my bsb)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:21 am 
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de kaasboer,

If you take high on your prince or your archmage, you end up with a massive magical defence - drain magic is a spell that I feel is often overlooked - especially when you consider the repercussions of failing to cast a spell. If you take the standard magic phase - 7v4, this becomes 6v5 with the annulian crystal, and if you happened to have cast drain magic in the turn before, it means that the opponent will need to use at least 3 dice to cast most spells, whilst spells like dwellers become almost unattainable (without a miscast, but that's a different story). Given the amount of dispel dice you have, magic is almost something you can ignore =)

- this is all to be taken with a grain of salt. It is in no way in-depth, and I appreciate there are assumptions made, etc. Still. My point is that I think that humble high magic is quite useful, ESPECIALLY on a mage prince/noble.

Curu,

Perhaps this is another alternative, if you wish to take a mage prince/noble? The additional spell granted by high magic is always welcomed =)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:35 am 
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Quote:
Silver Helms: The Silver Helms have actually disappointed me. I would've thought the difference between them and Dragon Princes would be less than I've experienced it to be. The extra WS, I, A and LD is often missed.

I also use a list with two cavalry buses - one each of Helms and DP. I've found the Helms have actually worked rather well for me. However, they perform a slightly different role in my army - I use them (backed up with the BSB) to take on less elite units where the lower WS etc is less of an issue. I field my Prince on a dragon, so he is able to lend his support to either the Helms or the DPs (without characters) as needed.

Obviously, its a very different situation, but I think in your lists part of the problem with the Helms is that as they are accompanied by your hardest hitter (the Prince) you are largely forced to use them to take on the really dangerous units (i.e. the ones you want the prince in combat with), rather than less elite units that are a better target for them due to their lesser WS and I compared to the DPs. Perhaps it could be worth considering fielding the Helms with the BSB, and the Prince with the DPs - while in terms of attacks per frontage it seems like a poor place for him, it enables you to focus on getting your hardest hitters (DP and Prince) into combat with the more dangerous units, and using the Helms and BSB to take on lesser threats...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:13 pm 
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I too rate the Prince build with Helm of Fortune, Radiant Gem and Scroll.

I guess it boils down to which sacrifice do you want to make Curu? In a list like Seredain's, the magic is not a primary focus, so you don't need a support caster. If you want a stronger phase though, I guess something else has to go. You seem not to like the mounted BSB overall, so the Prince is the obvious candidate. As you're no doubt aware though, the Gem costs him the Giant Blade and Loec. He's still strong in combat but you lose that one-elf killing machine thing.

I'm not sure there's a solution with no downside here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:34 pm 
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This discussion got me thinking, why not swap out the SH for a chariot. a WLC is cheaper than the 8 SH, and it hits harder both on the charge and in later round of combat. With the left over points you could either buy 2 more DP or 4 more PG (adding another rank for steadfast).

Another option is to take out both the SH and the repeater. and add in a WLC and a tiranoc. Slower than the SH, but it gives you a lot of area control for the chariots. This leaves you 83 points, which you can either spend on elites (5 SM + musician comes to 81) or shadow warriors (5 SW is 80 pts). You lose on firepower and surrender a little bit of speeds, and for that you get a lot of area control from the chariots (who are also more manouvrable than cavalry) and either a hitty unit of a group of scouts. Alternatively, you could of course add the 5 elite infantry to the PG.

This gives you something like this:

Shadow Archmage, Vortex Shard
Std. Prince
Mounted BSB, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone (True Magic)

35 Spearelves, Gleaming Pennant
14 Archers, musician
11 Archers

17 Phoenix Guard, standard bearer, Banner of Sorcery, musician
10 Dragon Princes, standard bearer, musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
Lion Chariot
Tyranoc chariot
5 Sword masters, musician

2 Eagles

Gives you 1 more (low points) drop, lot of area control, a lot of hitting power on the charge and better hitting power in later combat rounds (both the SM and WLC hit harder than the SH in round 2)

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:30 am 
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hehe that is looking a lot more like the list i've been playing the past months:P

mounted mageknight prince
lvl 4 shadow
mounted bsb
34 spears (pendant)
2x 12 archers
2x 5 princes (one with sorcery banner)
9 silverhelms (they perform well for me, mainly as a delivery system)
2x tirannoc chariots (lion chariots are hard, but way too expensive i.m.o)
2x 6 swordmasters (LOVE those. murderous when you get them in a flank (combined with others usually) and expendable enough to sacrifice as speedbump or assasination tool...)
2 eagles

main difference is i keep the helms and dont have an "elite block". but i dont really miss it tbh.

dont forget the silverhelms have a 2+ save, which is still more durable than t4 4+ save against a lot of targets. and while lion chariots can take a charge better then almost any other chariot, still the silverhelms with banner and 2 characters in the front are better at it.
i love the helms because i can decide in the end where my heavy flank will be. i can make a pretty much symetric deployment into a refused flank set-up just by dropping the helms+characters on a flank as my last deployment. this way i can usually put too much pressure on that flank while still having enough units to stall his advance on the others.

i agree though with the chariots being good (cheap) drops, and being easily redeployable. also the pressure they put on an opponent ("OMG if that chariot charges me it could kill 7 guys.. hmm lets not advance in that direction" ), like you say, area control, is great.

gr,

J


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:14 pm 
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Hey guys, been away for a little while due to real life stuff so thought I'd give you an update:

I've started painting the Spearelves. I figured that since I don't know what I'll be playing with just yet I might as well start with the units I have to field. It's a long and boring process painting a bunch at a time but hopefully I can have them finished by the end of the summer.

As for playing, I haven't done any lately. Between a summer internship, a certification I'm trying to take and social events going on this summer I don't have a lot of time left. Additionally, most (all?) of the gaming in the area is carried out at stores instead of dedicated gaming clubs so I'm kind of hesitant to just join in.

The army list development is naturally kind of in the same state as last time. Without trying stuff out it's hard to determine which direction to take. At the moment though, I'm most intrigued by the idea of the mage-prince, which I believe could solve a lot of my problems. That does however seriously hamper his combat abilities and turns the focus away from what it's been thus far. I'll continue contemplating the fine tuning of my list and units on a theoretical level until I get some games going again later on. Probably this won't happen until late August at best, at which point my studies start again and I have more time on my hands ;)

Has anyone been to any tournaments lately or faced off against tough opponents? As I'm still rather fresh in 8th I'm still trying to get a feel of how the harder armies play and how we play against them. Thoughts on the matter in general and how my kind of army in particular would face off against them is most appreciated :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Has anyone been to any tournaments lately or faced off against tough opponents?
I tried cavalry characters to give a friend some tournament practice, and he took me apart. Killing blow and a strength 7 Tomb King ate the cavalry. And the Casket of Souls, by ignoring armour, really hurt. Admittedly the game was lost because my Archmage killed himself turn 2, but even when I pulled the Tomb Guard out of magic buffing range, they still took me apart steadily. Just before my Archmage suicided, I was hoping for a small win, but I didn't have the sustained hitting power to fight his main units.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:10 pm 
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I have had 3 pretty rough games (all online) recently. One against Daemons with a LV 4 Keeper of Secrets, one against a Dark Elf magic-heavy army (and I mean magic HEAVY), and one against a double-deathstar ogre army. The first two were really close, the final one was a bit more lopsided (as I was able to take out one of his death stars). They are all in my Eagle Prince blog.

How your army would fare against them: Your PG would stand up to the heavy-hitters better than mine did. The Ogre Tyrant killed 14 White Lions in one turn, causing the unit to basically disintegrate: ward saves would have been helpful, and the KoS I faced caused my WLs to flee with a failed terror test (phantasmagoria was up :( ), and they were subsequently caught and run down. Against magic, you would have fared as well as I did (unless you got drain magic off, which I was unable to do against DE, thanks to my LV 2 and archers fleeing from the board early in the game). You would have had more trouble than I did against the DE Hydra (Killing it was easy for me, as my BSB carries the banner of eternal flame).

As for a RGoH Prince, I say give it a try! I rarely find that my prince is lacking by not having S7 (though, this is possibly aided by potion of strength). Generally, my Prince faces a character or monster with high enough strength to need higher strength only for 1 round of combat per game. Having shadow (withering) aids this greatly, as if my prince is lacking, I simply try to cast either Okkams (for S10) or withering on my opponent, meaning he is back to wounding on 3s or 2s (depending on how well I roll for withering). Shadow is a great way to get around the difficulties posed by having only a great weapon vs. the giant blade. Unless its a high armor save opponent, debuffing T is as good as having S7 (though both Giant Blade and T debuff is potentially better). For him, I would say high is best as that gives you two spells (with, at worst, having a 5+ ward, and drain magic, which is a pretty good "worst-case" for a LV 1). If you roll curse of arrow attraction, this could be good, as it overcomes the main difficulty of that spell: range. With your prince moving up with the cavalry, your archers can comfortably be 30" away from your target, whereas having a mage with curse in the archers means the archers must be, at best, 24" away from their target). Could lead to some good combinations.

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