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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Nah he only had 2 Jal, must've been a spelling error ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:47 pm 
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"Only" two ironblasters is plenty.

I'm not 100% percent happy about my deployment eiher. Placing Maneaters in the forest was foolhardy, knowing you had both timewarp and an eagle handy. I'm wondering though, why didnt you simply redirect my Maneaters away from the lions, then countercharge?

Also, I had to hide the cats, expecting them to be no. 1 target for the archers.

Any suggestions for how I could have played the maneaters better?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:29 am 
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Interesting new list Curu... seems like it's got a seriously decent variety of weaponry and I like the multi-drop elite setup. I'd say, since it has a dragon and very few troops (what with the extra expense of the coven), it could struggle with heavy-shooting armies more than your usual dragon list, since you have no terrifying white lion horde and flying BSB to distract people from the big lizard. I'm Looking forward to seeing how it gets on against all those blasters, then. It'd also be good to see it tested against some unending hordes too, when you find the time. Light magic will be mega-crucial to seeing your small units through the really big combats - and to protecting the dragon from cannons - so it feels like a good fit.

I think you've got a good point about TLOS. Because of the various vagaries of modelling, it can be really flawed unless some kind of artificial limit is agreed before the game. I once had a guy try and throw cupped hands on my archmage on the basis that he could see a tiny bit of his helmet between the gaps of the helmets of some clearly interposing swordmasters. I was not impressed!

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:58 am 
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Part 1 only? what a tease!! :) Curu/rusty what are the maneaters armed with?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:28 am 
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Jimmy wrote:
Part 1 only? what a tease!! :) Curu/rusty what are the maneaters armed with?


AHW right?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:27 am 
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The ogre list is in the post before the bat-rep. Maneaters are xhw.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:06 am 
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@rusty - the problem with the Eagle is that I barely had enough movement to get it where I wanted it. Given your 5-wide frontage, it would be easy to wheel so that an overrun could potentially bring you very wide either way. I didn't explore this opportunity enough though, it may have been possible to redirect them away and counter-charge. I think the best course of action would be to back up 3" and await your move, using the Eagle in my next turn to do exactly this (since you would be closer T2).

@Seredain - for now, this is just an experiment ;) I feel that I've established a safe baseline which I'm comfortable fielding in most environments. Now I want to explore other options to see if there are perhaps better configurations out there. I agree with your assessment, shooty lists will be a problem. However, I think that Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs have gotten easier to handle (both shooty, at least potentially) but Dwarfs have gotten harder. Overall, I'm hoping it's a boost to the army's strength.

@Jimmy - Part 2 will be coming up today :) Maneaters had Scouts, Swiftstride and +1 HW.

@pk-ng - indeed! As rusty pointed out, the list is posted in detail just prior to the report.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:57 am 
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Curu: I dislike how you used the Eagle. It could have kept closer to the the left flank of the ME and angled them back towards the building while moving the lions up and to the right of the ME flank keeping the SM in the front and back while out of the overrun path.

This way you would have had SM in his flank if he did a overrun and if he reformed you would have Lions in his flank and SM in his front. And most importantly, you would not be charged by the swiftstride ME. Also a small thing in the position of the dragon. It's actually huge to have him facing the left in this scenario as it allows you to charge out with him if needed to save that flank instead of looking at rock. Banishment/boosted shem's should kill the right Blaster(if the WL charge fails otherwise they can slam the left one if there is range) while a pha's protection would add some protection to the Dragon if you needed to commit him to the left.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:15 am 
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@joey_boy - agree about the Eagle. More evaluation to follow when the entire report's up. The Dragon's facing is also a good point, no point in having him 'see' nothing :)

:: Remember, Thou Art Mortal - Part 2 - Mid-game ::

Having finished Turn 1, things were moving along fast than I'd hoped.

:: Status ::

Well, I knew that my Lions were in trouble. Losing the Banner of Sorcery early on would be potentially disastrous. Also, his scroll being intact didn't help me much. I knew I had to move decisively and hope for some help from the dice. As I've said a lot of times, when things don't go as well as expected you need to take bigger risks. This was the time to throw caution to the wind and go for it.

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

First things first: the Swordmasters predictably had a flank on the Maneaters so I took it. The Lions on the East decided to back up a bit, fearing the Bulls making a long charge (frankly they would have nothing to lose with attempting it as 6 of them can easily hold against 6 charging Lions and win.

The central units shuffled a bit to allow S6 Banishments this turn. Since his scroll wasn't burned yet, I only had LoS to his Eastern Blaster, figuring he'd likely blow the scroll to save it now, if possible (thus, no need for vision to both of them).

The Swordmasters took a beating from the Leadbelchers last turn and only 2 models are remaining. They are too far away to block the Ironguts, but I place an Eagle to force him to stay still. The time for the gamble has come and I move Saerith up to their flank: with the Eagle + Swords I know they aren't going anywhere.

Magic comes up a massive 7v2 and I could not be happier! The phase starts with a 3D6 Banishment which gets a very high cast value and he decides to scroll it. I then proceed to cast the second Banishment with 4D6 and he's powerless to stop it. The Ironblaster goes down and this forces a panic test on his Bulls and Kitty - they both fail! Due to Saerith's placement, they have to flee in a dangerous direction: the Kitty flees off the board and the Ogres need 10+ to disappear. Alas, he rolls a 7 and they're still on the board!

Shooting does very little and with that it's close combat: the Lions take a beating from the Manhunters' impact hits and additionally the remaining ones don't roll too well on their hits. Before he even gets to strike I know this is a poor situation and indeed I lose combat by 3. The Swordmasters fail their break test, as do the 2 remaining Lions (he had 3 manhunters left of which 1 had suffered 2W). He pursues the Lions and catches them. My Western flank is now suddenly annihiliated in a situation where I should've destroyed him completely, barring lots of support on his side from magic / shooting.

Image

:: Ogres Turn 2 ::

The Ironguts charge the Eagle and the Leadbelchers move up. His Bulls fail to rally though and flee off the table! The Maneaters turn toward my Archers in the middle and the Ironblaster moves to get a shot at Saerith.

Magic is 9v7 and I know I only have to dispel Trollguts. Thus, he gets off Flame Cage on my Spears, housing 2 mages. In the shooting phase however the Leadbelchers kill the rest of the Spears, leaving the mages alone! The Ironblaster hits Saerith and Faeria: the former is saved by the Vambraces and the latter takes but a single wound - phew!

Combat sees him kill the Eagle easily enough and overrun into the Swords.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I charge Saerith into the flank of the Ironguts. Not a perfect situation, but a risk I have to take as I cannot have them run through my lines at will. I'm hoping this will be a long combat, meaning I'll have plenty of tricks to help me out. The Swordmasters rally and the small Lions move up again, having a flank to themselves. The Mages from the Spears join the central Archers, who swift reform to face the Manhunters.

Magic is 6v3 and I miss the Banner of Sorcery so much. I start with a 2D6 Pha's on the Dragon, but roll snake eyes. My hopes were that this would be dispelled, allowing me to either throw Banishment or Timewarp. Anyway, Timewarp is the second cast but he dispels it on 3v3. Not my best magic phase.

Shooting is very inefficient as I fail to impress him much.

In combat he makes his impact hits, and thus foregoes his opportunity to 'Make Way'! This means that his BSB is in base contact with Saerith, and the front rank is filled with Full Command. Now, here's an interesting aspect: a combat reform can only be made if it doesn't bring any models out of close combat with the enemy. Since his BSB is in contact with me and his front rank is filled with command, he cannot perform a combat reform unless the BSB dies. This means I won't have to face the full strength of his units, but rather have 3 models at most hitting me at one time. I breath fire and in total I manage 8 wounds on him. I won combat by a small margin but he holds.

Image

:: Ogres Turn 3 ::

His Belchers rear-charge Saerith and the Ironblaster moves up, the kitties not knowing what to do. The Manhunters make a long charge (11+ I think) on my Archers and Stand and Shoot doesn't impress them as much as I'd hope.

Magic is 5v6 and he casts it all at Trollguts Area of Effect (4+ regen) and he gets two 6's for IF. Oh my, am I in trouble now? Shooting is next to nothing with most things being engaged and we move to combat:

Resolving the Maneaters first luckily his impact hits don't completely destroy me. In return ASF proves to do what Archery cannot and I kill them all before he gets to strike, many thanks to S6 BSB (aka the glasscannon!). I reform to get Saerith within BSB range, knowing this can be crucial. Having the flaming banner no doubt saved me here, as his Maneaters were all boosted by Trollguts!

The central combat sees me obviously spend Loec, if ever there was a time. I decided to allocate against 4 different models with Saerith, maximizing the effect for Faeria. 3 were wounded, and thus Faerias attacks were split between the same 3. The result netted me ~6 wounds and his BSB died. He fails to do much in return and I actually win combat by 1! Both his units pass their break test, crucial rolls seeing as the BSB was dead. The Ironguts pass their test to reform as well, finally bringing their front against the Dragon.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

The Lions were a bit further away from the 'belchers than it looks like (I think I needed 8+ or 9+ to reach them). I decided not to take the charge, fearing his regen + 6 return attacks and stomps. The Archers decided the Ironguts were still too strong and I think sending them in wouldn't help me out. As frustrating as it was, I had to hope that magic would help the now 3W Faeria and 2W Saerith through another round. The Swordmasters closed the distance, hoping to be of use later on.

Magic is 8v6, a terrible split for me: I cannot force anything through and he has enough dice to put up a decent defense. I do however manage to get both Speed of Light (not really that necessary, since he already hit on 5's anyways but it would help against his characters) and Timewarp through as he focused on dispelling Pha's and failed Timewarp.

Shooting kills the cats and we move to combat: this time I have no flaming stuff, no Loec. My damage output is greatly reduced because of this and I lose combat by 4: Faeria is down to 1W. Due to the BSB however I manage to hold!

Image

:: Ogres Turn 4 ::

His Ironblaster charges into the fray, eager to show how completely imbalanced it is.

With his units all locked against Saerith + Faeria now, there's not much to this round but magic and combat: the first gives us a 5v5 split and again he gets an Area of Effect Trollguts through!

The Ironblaster proceeds to score 5 impact hits, hitting Faeria three times. One of the dice comes up a '5' and I have to pass a 5+ armour save to avoid her dying before she gets to strike. Alas, I do not play Daemons enough nor do I have rusty's uncanny ability to pass 5+ rolls so she dies. This leaves Saerith in a world of pain and I manage but a single wound or two. Luckily, his armour proves resilient against anything coming his way. Regardless, I lose combat by 6 (!) but manage to pass the break test with double 2's!! The Ironguts are now down to 2 models remaining, along with the Slaughtermaster and Firebelly. The Ironblaster is full strength while the Leadbelchers have 6 models but -2 wounds.

Image

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Some more critique on your eagle usage then(hey I need something to when studying for final exams ;) )

As I see it you had two other options.

1)
I feel that while the decision to force a flank for the dragon was a smart one. I feel the commitment of the dragon was not. He has to many units left alive for your dragon to be able to grind it out against the GutStar, and you dont have the redirectors left to protect that fight. You have another rather nice option and that is going after the easy points. Dropping the Eagle to angle away the GutStar to the left while flying the dragon in behind the Guts to threaten the right flank bulls/LB's. Move the remaining 2 SM in to position to buy another turn for the dragon to kill the LB unit while the archers/banishment try to kill of the ME and do one round of damage against the IG's.

2)
I feel like you lost the game when he broke your Lions+SM(I think it was a mistake to counter-charge with the SM really). Positioning the dragon to kill the ME and then reform and go for the center would have made sure you where clear behind your lines and sill had the SM at more or less full strength to run past the ME's fighting your Lions. But I know the feeling of wanting to save the Banner of Sorcery and rather expensive Lions. This can however be a common trap where players tend to sacrifice multiple units to save one doomed unit and thus adding a lot more points to a losing battle.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Cool Batrep, and very interesting list! I had a thought for you regarding the following situation:

Quote:
Since his BSB is in contact with me and his front rank is filled with command, he cannot perform a combat reform unless the BSB dies. This means I won't have to face the full strength of his units, but rather have 3 models at most hitting me at one time.


This doesn't seem accurate to me. I can see where you are coming from, but there's at least 1 way around this:

Couldn't Rusty have just decided to reform to become 4 models wide when turning to face you? The bsb would still be in combat, and 3 command models would be in the front rank. (I know sometimes people forget that changing the frontage of a unit is an option...maybe that happened in this case?)

But realistically: Why couldn't a reform have the Bsb in contact with your prince and 2 of 3 command models in the front rank (thus keeping the 3 wide formation)? Though the specific situation really isn't explicitly stated in the brb, we have precendent for characters moving into the fighting rank at times other than 'make way' (ie a command model -usually the champ- being killed; being challenged and having a character not in the front rank move up to accept). In the challenge situation and the 'make way' situation, the command model moves into the second rank, sometimes maintaining, sometimes losing, its special benefits.

I imagine the reform could go something like: Passes the leadership test, turns to face, maintaining a frontage of 3, the bsb stays in base to base, along with any other characters/command that are in base to base. Then, positions filled by regular rank and file are replaced by the command models of his choice (just like in a regular reform), with remaining command/characters being moved to the second (and possibly 3rd+) rank.

Not trying to attack you Curu, just trying to give reasoning (with as much rules support as I can remember) to back my view on this situation. :)

Again, I really like the list! I hope it works for you.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Certainly some early mistakes on the west. Allowing the overrun to go towards the White Lions is a complete waste of the eagle, at least on turn 1. Either get the angle to divert the ogres, or save the eagle for later. Maybe you sacrifice it like that later in the game, but not turn 1. The other problem on that side is your two combat units are taking fear tests on leadership 8, with no character assistance. You should expect to fail one of them, and failing could make the result just as bad. And as Joey_boy said, the dragon should have be aimed to jump in, especially since it was doing nothing else.

When you sent the dragon into the gut-star, I think you picked the wrong flank!!! The way you did it, you give him easy opportunity to bring in more units. If you land on the other side of the unit, with the same angles, the leadbelchers cannot get in your rear.


What I really feel from reading this report is the loss of your inate combat power. Your little units NEED magical help, while the White Lion horde usually functioned without it.


PS I happen to agree with GhostWarrior that a reform to 3 wide with 2 command and Butcher in contact is legal. Although I completely see the basis for Curu's arguement that it is illegal. The current rules on character placement and "make way" are stupid and incompetently written.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Some good points here, let me try and address them as best as I can:

@joey_boy - the Dragon move was mostly a gambling one since I didn't see any other way to win than to engage it and hope for the best with magical support. Maybe I could've stalled it for the Dragon to do its thing for long enough and then engage it later on, I'm not sure. M6 is dangerous though, and with the West collapsing my choices were quickly dwindling away. The poor West really gave me a bad start and indeed it was my mistake that led to this. I disagree that I should've given up on them completely though, a little more luck and I would've won the combat and killed him. Definitely agree though that is was poorly handled overall.

@GhostWarrior - you may be right that he could've done it by going 4 wide. I'm not sure how the combat reform rules apply to musicians and standards vs normal rank-and-file though: I was touching his champion, BSB and a normal Irongut. I didn't consider this, and neither did he I think. You are not allowed to reform so that all command models are not in front - this is clearly stated on page 92 - command groups. I don't see any precedent for the characters being allowed to swap command in this situation, since a combat reform acts like a normal reform (and in a normal reform the command group is automatically placed in the front rank).

@dabber - I'll probably upload a picture so we can see more clearly what the situation was like on the West. I think the best option is to have him come at me in his T1 and then use the Eagle in my T2, this gives me some more time to re-organize etc.

As for the Dragon vs the Gutstar, you're probably right about flank. Going on the other flank would allow me to touch a mage instead of the BSB as well. I agree about the sheer combat power being lost, but I'm not sure it's a bad idea given the tradeoff, at least not until I've played this some more. You have yet to see the outcome here, too ;)

Part 3 coming up either tonight or (more likely) tomorrow :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Looking at his list, Leadbelcher shooting does cruel and horrible things to High Elf armies, and impact hits are your enemy, so despite having the strong banishment and mass archers, I'd really aim to be aggressive and get into combat quickly.

To that extent, on the western front, move the infantry up first turn (not the sideway shift), and use the eagle to divert the man eaters on horizontal over run into the center of the board.

Also, bring Saerith out to also charge the man eaters (for triple threat), but also to charge the man eaters in the woods if they don’t charge.

I'd attempt to get the banishments in range of the Leadbelcher, and focus the ranged assault on taking the unit down. Ironblasters aren't as devestating to our infantry as we'd expect, and getting Saerith into combat is always the best answer to keeping him out of harms way. I'd also agree with questioning the placement turn 2 for Saerith. I think he'd likely be better positioned to the western side of the iron guts, allowing for a rear charge when he hit the sword masters.

So far, the greatest problem was simply delaying the ogres, instead of using the eagles to get the better charges, imho.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Some good points here, let me try and address them as best as I can:

@joey_boy - the Dragon move was mostly a gambling one since I didn't see any other way to win than to engage it and hope for the best with magical support. Maybe I could've stalled it for the Dragon to do its thing for long enough and then engage it later on, I'm not sure. M6 is dangerous though, and with the West collapsing my choices were quickly dwindling away. The poor West really gave me a bad start and indeed it was my mistake that led to this. I disagree that I should've given up on them completely though, a little more luck and I would've won the combat and killed him. Definitely agree though that is was poorly handled overall.

Part 3 coming up either tonight or (more likely) tomorrow :)


You do what you have to do when it's time to rock n roll! :)

I find it hard to judge ranges and angles on picture as I'm a very visual guy, so I might be way off in my assessment of the flow of battle. I'm looking forward to the last turns and see if your magic and dice can turn this around :)


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:03 am 
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@Baeronvonbleat - the problem with being aggressive here is that the Dragon gets subjected to 2 Ironblasters too soon. I think it's a bad call to not at least try and neutralize one Ironblaster before making the Dragon visible. I agree that the biggest problem was slowing the Ogres down to avoid impact hits - they truly are devastating to HE and when they come from anything (as opposed to just chariots etc) life really is a lot harder.

@joey_boy - I agree that ranges and angles are difficult based on diagrams. Unfortunately, I didn't take a deployment picture but I'll post the T1 photo :)

Part 3 is being written now, should be up before too long ;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:46 am 
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Onto the last couple of turns:

:: Remember, Thou Art Mortal - Part 3 - End-game ::

With the Ironguts severely reduced, I was seeing a chance for victory if I could stall the Ogres for just long enough.

:: Status ::

He has all his remaining units committed against the Prince, which has 2W left. However, with Armour of Caledor and Vambraces of Defense, it's really hard for him to hurt me save for the Ironguts, which only have 2-3 models left (and he can only get 2 in base contact at any given time) and they hit me on 5's.

This combat would be crucial: If I could buff him magically and hold on for long enough, I could very well emerge the winner. In fact, if Saerith survives the entire game I'll be way ahead, points-wise.

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I moved the Swordmasters closer and tried to get the Lions a little further around. My T4 move with the Lions was proving to be poor - had I thought about some more I would've probably been able to get them closer to the Ironblaster for a T6 flank move. The Swordmasters couldn't do anything but march up at full speed.

Magic gave us an 8v6 split. Now, I started off with a 3D6 Pha's Protection. The reason is that with 6v6 he's likely to dispel it, barring IF, and having 2 dice left would yield me nothing. Instead I forced him to dispel Pha's and cast Timewarp for +1A. Perhaps this is a poor decision and I should've gone for Pha's with 6 dice, I'm not sure. One thing's for sure though, I sorely missed having duplications of Pha's here!

Shooting was nothing as everything was engaged so we went to combat: Saerith dealt a wound or two for nothing in return, losing by 4. I held on a 6- due to Naenor being nearby. This was crucial, because if he had died now, he would have a field day in his T5, which I really couldn't have coped with.

Image

:: Ogres Turn 5 ::

No movement occured, so we went straight to magic. The split was 4v4 after a 3+2 roll and no channels. He proceeded to throw it all at regeneration bubble and managed to get two 6's. I was shocked to see how powerless I was to defend against Trollguts for 3 turns in a row. To add insult to injury, the miscast result was a S10 template, which brought Saerith down to 1W.

In combat, his Ironguts (striking last) managed 2W on Saerith. I failed the first 5+ armour saves, and both re-rolls failed too. Hoping for 4+ twice, I rolled the ward save but unfortunately, one of the dice came up a '1' and the noble Elf died. It's not often you see a miscast working in your favour, but that definitely happened to rusty here. Regardless, it wasn't the worst outcome since I had the initiative now and was ready to blast him. He reformed his units for a last T6 charge.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

I charged the Swordmasters into his Ironblaster, needing 6+ or 7+ on the charge roll. Regardless, I rolled a total of '4' and proceeded to stumble forward a couple of inches. The White Lions moved to block the Leadbelchers and I swapped the characters in the big Archers around for maximum protection.

Magic gave us a 6v3 split after a 3+2 roll and a channel. Now, the way I saw it I had two options:
- go with 2x3D6
- go with 1x6D6

The first has the disadvantage of failing to cast. If I do that, it's likely he'll dispel the other and I won't get anything. If I'm very lucky, I'll get 2 (!) Banishments through. It's a high-risk, high-reward play. However, given the size of his Ironguts (2 models left, both wounded as one was the champion) and my shooting potential, I didn't reckon I needed to take this approach.

I ended up throwing 6D6 and got a very high casting value. The only way for him to stop this spell was to get two or three 6's, which he promptly did! I was shocked as my magic phase gave me nothing. Onto shooting, I didn't fare a lot better as I managed a single wound, bringing his Ironguts down to 3W over 2 models remaining. The Slaughtermaster had lost a wound and the firebelly had lost 2.

Image

:: Ogres Turn 6 ::

His Ironblaster and Ironguts charged the bunker, the Leadbelchers charged the blocking Lions. I chose stand and shoot on his Ironguts, managing yet another wound to bring them down to 2 models with 1 wound each!

Magic saw us get a 3v6 split after 2 channels on my part and this time I finally managed to stop anything funny from him.

Combat saw the Leadbelchers easily take care of the Lions and we proceeded to the central one.

Naenor was in base contact with the Ironguts and I knew it was crucial for them to die. Because of this, I didn't challenge with him. The Ironguts promptly died before they could strike (though impact hits hurt a bit, as usual). In return, the Ironblaster killed Naenor (did I mention how broken I think this thing is?) while the Firebelly failed to impress the Crystalmage. In the end, I had enough models left to be steadfast, meaning I needed to roll an 8- to hold. I promptly failed this break test and he ran me down, getting 565 victory points in the process in addition to the 265 he got for the BSB.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

After the last turn I knew I was in poor shape. Yes, I had killed off his Ironguts, but I lost so much more. Counting up, rusty was ahead by 685 victory points, which is sadly a loss for the High Elves. Had I passed the 8- break test, we would be looking at a difference of 120 points instead - a draw.

:: Evaluation ::

Wow! First of all, a highly entertaining game with lots of nail-biting moments, crucial dice rolls, heroic stubbornness and fickle magic. All what Warhammer's supposed to be.

I have never played with an msu-style army before, and I quickly realized that this is something I have to do more to get used to: I think my visual image of the deployment was a bit off, and this led to my units being in poor positions despite going first. I also underestimated the Maneaters which cost me a flank, and arguably the game. This has already been mentioned multiple times so I won't go indepth at this.

The first turn movement of the Crystalmage was a really poor decision. With the scroll intact there is no reason to try and get both Ironblasters, it won't happen anytime this year against a competent player. This additionally lowered Banishment's strength, which hurt me so badly. I hope I won't make this same mistake again anytime soon.

The central Swordmasters were originally in a poor position, however I managed to put them to good use. Perhaps this could've been taken care of otherwise, I'm sure their weight would be appreciated against the Maneaters for example.

Committing Saerith like I did was most likely the right move, but I agree that the other flank is a better option. Small things like this matter. I do believe I would be able to take care of the Leadbelchers, as he would be forced to dispel Pha's I could Banish and shoot them to death.

A short note on luck, or natural variance, or whatever you like to call it: there is little doubt that Rusty was very lucky with the magical rolls (both to cast and dispel) for multiple turns in the later stages of the game, however I was equally lucky in panicking his Bulls off the table and passing a million tests for Saerith. Granted, he did take a couple himself, among others an LD9 break test without re-rolls. The point is that overall, though it may seem like he was very lucky, I think this went both ways: it's just easier to notice the impact of managing a dispel roll requiring two 6's than it is to notice passing like 6 break tests. Also, remember that his 1 cannonball did a total of 1W.

It's not often that I lose the Dragon AND the Prince, especially not in a prolonged combat as they're so insanely tough to bring down, however I gave them an extremely tough task this game which proved to be too much. Indeed, they are mortal.

I'm sure there are plenty more things to comment on in this game, but for now these are my thoughts and I'm eager to hear yours. I will however list a couple of thoughts I have with regards to the list:
- Banner of Sorcery is very vulnerable despite being in a 14-man unit. I could add one of the unit of Swordmasters to this for example, increasing them to 21. This would severely help my footprint-issues and add some much needed durability. Elites would thus be: 21 Lions, 6 Lions, 7 Swordmasters.
- It is possible squeezing another mage in. This would give me somewhat better spell selection (no points to upgrade him to level 2) but more importantly it would give me S7 Banishment AND a lategame redirector (100 points is what relative to saving the fragile and expensive bunkers).

Overall I believe in the list concept, but I made mistakes with regards to both the MSU aspect and the Coven part. Against a competent player like rusty, this is very hard to come back from. Have no fears though, the Star Coven will be back! I'm unsure whether I'll field this exact list or with slight changes in my next game though.

Oh, and one last thing: can somebody explain to me the rationale of putting the Ironblaster in the Ogre book at less than 255 points?

Hope you enjoyed :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:18 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Oh, and one last thing: can somebody explain to me the rationale of putting the Ironblaster in the Ogre book at less than 255 points?

Hope you enjoyed :)


Worshop wanted to sell new models :(

On the game though - loosing that Banner of Sorcery seemd to cost you in the end - factoring in an average of 2PD in your last 2 turns means possibly the Prince survives - at the very least the Ironguts/Ironblaster easts another Banishment. Really does show how PD hungry Coven lists are i guess

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:16 am 
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Hey Curu

First of all I really like the new list. The dragon/coven hybrid is interesting. I will study the battle report in detail over the weekend, can't wait to see how that played out :lol:

As the others have mentioned a WS10 I10 dragon is a terrifying prospect! A lot of opponents will be hitting it on 5's in that case too :wink:

I've been trying to figure out a sensible way of splitting the lions in my list idea and units of 14 seemed the optimal option to protect that all so vital banner. I'll likely put up a slightly different list over the weekend.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
- Banner of Sorcery is very vulnerable despite being in a 14-man unit. I could add one of the unit of Swordmasters to this for example, increasing them to 21. This would severely help my footprint-issues and add some much needed durability. Elites would thus be: 21 Lions, 6 Lions, 7 Swordmasters.
Generally that is an improvement, because the bigger White Lion unit is more capable of fighting with no help. What do you think of my observation that the weakness of this list is your troops NEED magical assistance, while in the "normal" version they enjoy getting it sometimes, but don't really expect it?

Curu Olannon wrote:
- It is possible squeezing another mage in. This would give me somewhat better spell selection (no points to upgrade him to level 2) but more importantly it would give me S7 Banishment AND a lategame redirector (100 points is what relative to saving the fragile and expensive bunkers).
That only makes the dependence upon magic greater, and lessens your ability to function without magic. If you do that, you should really get slaughtered by Dwarfs, for example, since they can still stop your magic.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:56 pm 
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@Jal - indeed losing all that magic potential hurt greatly, hence the ideas around beefing up the Lions to 21.

@Caradryal - with WS7 the only to-hit difference is for WS4 guys, and of course if I'm fighting tough characters etc. I10 makes a world of difference in a lot of situations though! As for 14 Lions and protection, the simple fact remains that a cast of 13th, a strong magic missile or anything with decent power can truly bring them low. They are, after all, T3 5+ save Elves, unfortunately.

@dabber - I agree with your observation, but I think this is pretty much a necessity when running a Star Coven type of list. The thing is that it might be wise to re-configure stuff a bit to truly take advantage of what Light has to offer, for example I'm considering other builds for the Prince as Banishment helps out tremendously against things I'm reluctant to engage. With that being said, I'm trying to have some units capable of working without magical support as well. I think that identifying where I need dual banishment and where I need dual pha's protection will be key to this list's success.

If I do add a 4th mage (!), Dwarfs will indeed be suicide like 9 times out of 10. I think this is an option I'm less likely to take, though it's an interesting thought-experiment, if nothing else!

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Thanks for a great game :D

I don't really have much to add to the HE side of things, very well discussed already.
About the ogres: Any other way I could have done things?
I find OK a very simple and straightforward army compared to, say VC or WE. Still, there should be room for some tactics.

In all probability, the Maneaters should have been lost charging the white lions. If I hadn't gotten D3 impact hits maybe four less lions would have died, who would have killed more maneaters. That would have swung the fight in favour of the HE.
I believe placing the ME in the forest was rash. Any other suggestions for placement?

Curu is probably right that I should have chanced a charge on his east flank with my ogres. I didn't have much to lose, and even a failed charge might keep me within BSB range (silly mistake on my part).

As for Make Way. It "feels wrong", but dem rules dem rules. I'll reread the rules and check whether I could have reformed four wide. Not that I usually have opponents as sneaky as Curu, but better be prepared :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:56 pm 
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rusty wrote:
In all probability, the Maneaters should have been lost charging the white lions. If I hadn't gotten D3 impact hits maybe four less lions would have died, who would have killed more maneaters. That would have swung the fight in favour of the HE.
I believe placing the ME in the forest was rash. Any other suggestions for placement?
What is your theory (or experience) behind the use of scouting Maneaters? I don't see that is valuable, at least not without making the unit really really big.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:58 pm 
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@rusty - yeah thanks a lot! Your basement certainly makes playing games a more flexible issue than it would've been otherwise, what with time constraints and all ;) The main Ogre mistakes are hard to point out because it's a fairly straightforward army and things did indeed end up in your favour. However, a few pointers: was it really worth spending the scroll? You knew that because I'd moved the Dragon up I'd be committing it to combat, perhaps better to save the scroll and leave the Skycannon for dead? The Maneaters' risk has already been pointed out. You also had 3 cats which did nothing all game. Not sure what they could've done either, to be honest. I would play the Eastern Bulls very aggressive here I think, there's nothing I have which they really fear.

@dabber - S5 on such an expensive unit can be very hit or miss. At T4, 5+ they're relatively vulnerable but they'll chew through basic infantry like there's no tomorrow.

Bearing the experiences from this game and comments in mind, I have the following draft which I think I'll be using for my next game(s):

Saerith on Star Dragon - 622
Crystalmage - 175
Seermage - 165
BSB - 169

Char total - 1131

20 Archers, FC, flaming - 255
10 Archers - 110
15 Archers, musician - 170
10 Spears - 90

Core total - 625

21 White Lions, Full Command with Amulet of Light, Banner of Sorcery - 410
7 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver, Musician - 158
5 White Lions - 75

Special total - 658

2 Eagles - 100

Rare total - 100

Army total - 2499

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:37 pm 
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@Curu
Nice list, give it a few tries. A few things though. Later I would consider merging the two white lions units, for a Star Coven with Lion Horde(tm?).

Also, I would be vary of placing your characters in such small archer units. It doesn't take much concentrated magic/ shooting to annihilate one, and the character inside. On the other hand, that hardly happens to my wood elves with only ten strong archer units to hide in.Feel free to disregard.

@Dabber
This was my first game with ogres, ever. Theory only. Feel free to shout "ogres are broken, doesn't take any skill to learn".
The theory behind scouting Maneaters was to mess with my opponents plan. Also, they should be the number one target for shooting in the whole army. Being able to place them close to the enemy, and in cover is valuable. With swiftstride they should be on the enemy turn one, and then it's only a matter of surviving until the rest of the army shows up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:59 am 
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Wishing to keep this list ETC-compatible does not combine well with a Horde because the Banner of Sorcery weighs in at a hefty 50 points.

As for the Archer units - if my opponents can find the will to target 50 core Elves over Lions, Swords and a Dragon I'll happily let them! Chances are all mages won't die, which leaves me plenty of flexibility. If they manage to kill off both the melee elements and the mages, I'll lose of course but that should rarely happen ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:43 am 
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Just a quick question guys - do you prefer reading the report all at once or divided into parts like my last one? If you choose the latter, what would you prefer the waiting period to be? 1 day - 2 days - ?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Prefer in one go myself but theres merit to the other method. Give you chance to consider your response and tactical changes that could be made.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Generally I prefer the report all at once. However, you, Curu Olannon, post often enough and reliably enough the split report works.

That said, in you giant blog, I would "complete" the report by editing the initial report post. That makes it a lot easier to read weeks later, and makes it easier to track movements throughout. Included labels showing part 1, part 2, etc, so the response post makes sense, but putting the full thing in one place is better for the huge blog.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Hey Curu, today i played a friendly game with a list similar to yours and i won, but my mounted BSB died immediatly on the second turn, my enemy raped him completely with shooting. How do you manage him? i try to keep him covered but if i do so he cant reach combat enough fast, once hes out of cover he gets shooted at once. Usually i survive the enemy shooting phase but my eagle always dies and i have to move him into a unit so its like im wasting 50 points.


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