Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 am
@rusty - I dread to think how this matchup would've been if he'd have had a non-flaming cannon! As for countering me, I'm surprised he didn't go for Ancient Power (or whatever it's called) on the Anvil to seriously stall my advance. Granted, it's a long shot but he should've known he needed that extra turn. Essentially, the worse a game is going for you, the more risks you have to take. If not T1, then he at least should've attempted it T2, in my opinion.
@Jimmy - yeah after T1 I wasn't overly concerned. His uncanny ability to roll that 'hit' though really made it tough for me. It's not often that I get to remove the Dragon before it's killed a single model!
@Seredain - yeah me too! Being down 722 VP just like that hurts a LOT, especially when I considered what the elites have to mow through to get those points back.
As for the local metagame, it's kind of hard to tell because I haven't played the same players (with a couple of exceptions) particularly much. This tournament for example was far away from where I usually play (the only one I knew prior to entering was Rusty and we had decided to attend because we knew the skill-level would be rather high). So, what opponents have I faced multiple times and how do they adjust?
There's rusty of course and he's managed to draw me twice in a row now. I find that what rusty does is that he plays a rather compact style, which makes it hard for me to concentrate enough force to break a key component of his army. What's more, the chaff he's fielded stays out of range of my Archers so that when the Lions / Swordmasters get there they won't necessarily get into combat as soon as I'd wish. Basically, he's playing his army more like one fist rather than multiple fingers on their own. Against his VC I should've won but made a couple of mistakes. Same against Wood Elves really. Regardless, the games would've been close so there's no doubt that he has a good grasp of how to counter it. As he's used to playing with a Bloodthirster himself I imagine that he's got a fairly easy task identifying optimal Dragon movements and therefore prevent them.
When I practiced and fine-tuned my list for this tournament I had a few games against Strange who played Tomb Kings. I've faced his Dwarfs earlier on so he knew what the army was capable of. I find that he pretty much ignored the Dragon but tried to reduce its optimal targets (e.g. area denial with a Warsphinx and moving his casters out of a lucrative unit). Instead, he focused on decimating my elites where possible. I think this can be a viable strategy - depending on your army - but in the end 40 elites aren't that easy to kill with all the 'support' they're getting.
Lastly there's Dark Reaper. I've faced his Dark Elves and Daemons on multiple occasions. In our later games, he's also largely ignored the Dragon when he could, though he's been a little reckless trying to kill it a couple of times (presenting his flank to 14-strong Swordmasters hoping to KB Saerith and break Faeria is a long shot with the Breath Weapon up and Naenor nearby...).
Overall, what I say these 3 players have realized is that the Dragon isn't necessarily game-breaking. They've accepted the fact that my 622-point model IS going to do some harm. From there on, it's all about reducing that harm and maximizing your own. Indeed, I have to get very favourable combats to actually kill a lot of points with the Dragon. As my games show, she hardly ever does this on her own. I guess you could say that they're rid of their Dragonfever and have started adapting to the playstyle of the army - rather than the Dragon itself.
Did that answer your question sufficiently or is there anything else you'd like me to elaborate further?
@jwg20 - have no fear mate, Faeria has yet to finish her path of destruction It's good to hear that more people are picking up this style of play as well, as I really believe there are a lot of possibilities worth exploring with this setup. Feel free to send me a pm if you/she has any questions you don't feel like posting here!
That thing about the anvil most definitely would've changed the dynamic of the game. I'll make sure he knows it before he's off to ETC (not sure he's taking an Anvil list, but regardless it's fairly essential to know one's own army's rules).
Next report will likely be up tomorrow
@pk-ng - I know that this is how Vaul's works against a magic item on a character, but thanks for the clarification anyway. The discussion with regards to war machine has to do with the wording of the spell / engineering runes. Essentially, is it possible to use Vaul's at all against a war machine or are the runes like Daemon gifts? If yes, do all the runes count as being on a 'single item' such as your armour example? This is a very hazy area and one of the million annoying things GW could've easily fixed with a FAQ.
So day 1 saw me finish with 1 tie and 2 wins. I was fairly happy with my play, especially given the opponents I'd faced, but regardless I felt that I needed to perform better if I wanted to finish in a good spot. I knew that I'd have to play for the bigger wins on day 2 which could mean anything from disaster to 20-0. Essentially, a high-risk play. At this point, I was having 41-19 while the best guy had 60-0. It was kind of frustrating to not get a really easy matchup though, there were just so many armies there which I could totally decimate but I hadn't faced any of them yet. I spent a couple of hours discussing the next day's fights with Rusty (who knew what he was up against, whereas I did not), who was wondering what on Earth he was supposed to do with a flaming bloodthirster. See this is exactly what I'm talking about - a Daemon list with a mix of soft choices (e.g. Daemonettes), semi-decent combat units and the double-edged sword in the shape of a flaming bloodthirster. If I had gotten this matchup, I'm fairly certain it would be a huge advantage to me and likely close to 20-0, barring any big mistakes. For Rusty however, it was a real nightmare. Anyways, as far as I was concerned, we agreed that 'going for it' would be the best course of action. Now I know that I can easily get impatient and and make some rather suicidal decisions in the pursuit of a big win, so I made sure to convince myself that only patience could provide a solid win or two. Essentially, I would just have to keep playing my normal game but not be afraid of an opportunity should it present itself.
So a couple of hours sleep later we were again at the tournament and the pairings were announced. I was to meet VC - yet again! This time however, the list was a real nightmare and the player was a former Norwegian ETC member. Luckily for me, he wasn't playing that much any longer so I was hoping he didn't have the same edge which I assume he used to. His list was roughly as follows:
Vamp Lord on flying thing with S7 ASF red-fury attacks (seriously, do the math on this guy vs Faeria and despair)
Vamp BSB on flying thing with stuff
12 Black Knights
~20 GG with a Vampire
40 Ghouls
Zombie blocks
LOTS of Chaff
From the get-go I knew that the only way to win big here was to decimate the black knight bus. How to do this, I had no idea: even getting the Lions + Saerith in wouldn't necessarily be enough! Also, with him having 2 fliers it would be extremely hard to catch him a poor position. I knew this, but more importantly I knew that he also knew this. Essentially, before deployment we both knew that this would be a game very much about manoeuvring, where we'd have to capitalize on the slightest mistake to make an opening. Now, seeing as my opponent was also a former Chess player, I most certainly didn't have the easiest task on my hands.
Now, where were those easy matchups you were talking about?
@Jimmy - yeah after T1 I wasn't overly concerned. His uncanny ability to roll that 'hit' though really made it tough for me. It's not often that I get to remove the Dragon before it's killed a single model!
@Seredain - yeah me too! Being down 722 VP just like that hurts a LOT, especially when I considered what the elites have to mow through to get those points back.
As for the local metagame, it's kind of hard to tell because I haven't played the same players (with a couple of exceptions) particularly much. This tournament for example was far away from where I usually play (the only one I knew prior to entering was Rusty and we had decided to attend because we knew the skill-level would be rather high). So, what opponents have I faced multiple times and how do they adjust?
There's rusty of course and he's managed to draw me twice in a row now. I find that what rusty does is that he plays a rather compact style, which makes it hard for me to concentrate enough force to break a key component of his army. What's more, the chaff he's fielded stays out of range of my Archers so that when the Lions / Swordmasters get there they won't necessarily get into combat as soon as I'd wish. Basically, he's playing his army more like one fist rather than multiple fingers on their own. Against his VC I should've won but made a couple of mistakes. Same against Wood Elves really. Regardless, the games would've been close so there's no doubt that he has a good grasp of how to counter it. As he's used to playing with a Bloodthirster himself I imagine that he's got a fairly easy task identifying optimal Dragon movements and therefore prevent them.
When I practiced and fine-tuned my list for this tournament I had a few games against Strange who played Tomb Kings. I've faced his Dwarfs earlier on so he knew what the army was capable of. I find that he pretty much ignored the Dragon but tried to reduce its optimal targets (e.g. area denial with a Warsphinx and moving his casters out of a lucrative unit). Instead, he focused on decimating my elites where possible. I think this can be a viable strategy - depending on your army - but in the end 40 elites aren't that easy to kill with all the 'support' they're getting.
Lastly there's Dark Reaper. I've faced his Dark Elves and Daemons on multiple occasions. In our later games, he's also largely ignored the Dragon when he could, though he's been a little reckless trying to kill it a couple of times (presenting his flank to 14-strong Swordmasters hoping to KB Saerith and break Faeria is a long shot with the Breath Weapon up and Naenor nearby...).
Overall, what I say these 3 players have realized is that the Dragon isn't necessarily game-breaking. They've accepted the fact that my 622-point model IS going to do some harm. From there on, it's all about reducing that harm and maximizing your own. Indeed, I have to get very favourable combats to actually kill a lot of points with the Dragon. As my games show, she hardly ever does this on her own. I guess you could say that they're rid of their Dragonfever and have started adapting to the playstyle of the army - rather than the Dragon itself.
Did that answer your question sufficiently or is there anything else you'd like me to elaborate further?
@jwg20 - have no fear mate, Faeria has yet to finish her path of destruction It's good to hear that more people are picking up this style of play as well, as I really believe there are a lot of possibilities worth exploring with this setup. Feel free to send me a pm if you/she has any questions you don't feel like posting here!
That thing about the anvil most definitely would've changed the dynamic of the game. I'll make sure he knows it before he's off to ETC (not sure he's taking an Anvil list, but regardless it's fairly essential to know one's own army's rules).
Next report will likely be up tomorrow
@pk-ng - I know that this is how Vaul's works against a magic item on a character, but thanks for the clarification anyway. The discussion with regards to war machine has to do with the wording of the spell / engineering runes. Essentially, is it possible to use Vaul's at all against a war machine or are the runes like Daemon gifts? If yes, do all the runes count as being on a 'single item' such as your armour example? This is a very hazy area and one of the million annoying things GW could've easily fixed with a FAQ.
So day 1 saw me finish with 1 tie and 2 wins. I was fairly happy with my play, especially given the opponents I'd faced, but regardless I felt that I needed to perform better if I wanted to finish in a good spot. I knew that I'd have to play for the bigger wins on day 2 which could mean anything from disaster to 20-0. Essentially, a high-risk play. At this point, I was having 41-19 while the best guy had 60-0. It was kind of frustrating to not get a really easy matchup though, there were just so many armies there which I could totally decimate but I hadn't faced any of them yet. I spent a couple of hours discussing the next day's fights with Rusty (who knew what he was up against, whereas I did not), who was wondering what on Earth he was supposed to do with a flaming bloodthirster. See this is exactly what I'm talking about - a Daemon list with a mix of soft choices (e.g. Daemonettes), semi-decent combat units and the double-edged sword in the shape of a flaming bloodthirster. If I had gotten this matchup, I'm fairly certain it would be a huge advantage to me and likely close to 20-0, barring any big mistakes. For Rusty however, it was a real nightmare. Anyways, as far as I was concerned, we agreed that 'going for it' would be the best course of action. Now I know that I can easily get impatient and and make some rather suicidal decisions in the pursuit of a big win, so I made sure to convince myself that only patience could provide a solid win or two. Essentially, I would just have to keep playing my normal game but not be afraid of an opportunity should it present itself.
So a couple of hours sleep later we were again at the tournament and the pairings were announced. I was to meet VC - yet again! This time however, the list was a real nightmare and the player was a former Norwegian ETC member. Luckily for me, he wasn't playing that much any longer so I was hoping he didn't have the same edge which I assume he used to. His list was roughly as follows:
Vamp Lord on flying thing with S7 ASF red-fury attacks (seriously, do the math on this guy vs Faeria and despair)
Vamp BSB on flying thing with stuff
12 Black Knights
~20 GG with a Vampire
40 Ghouls
Zombie blocks
LOTS of Chaff
From the get-go I knew that the only way to win big here was to decimate the black knight bus. How to do this, I had no idea: even getting the Lions + Saerith in wouldn't necessarily be enough! Also, with him having 2 fliers it would be extremely hard to catch him a poor position. I knew this, but more importantly I knew that he also knew this. Essentially, before deployment we both knew that this would be a game very much about manoeuvring, where we'd have to capitalize on the slightest mistake to make an opening. Now, seeing as my opponent was also a former Chess player, I most certainly didn't have the easiest task on my hands.
Now, where were those easy matchups you were talking about?