Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

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Giladis
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#661 Post by Giladis »

I found it refreshing how you dominated the movement, something I haven't seen done against the WoC where I play for a while and I fail to understand his deployment. He was facing a Dragon so the best thing he can do is to deploy all his units 5 wide to reduce his frontage as he has superior units when width of frontage is taken in corespondence to unit abilities and price. He should have just boxed himself in a deploy down the middle. Feed your dragon the hounds and sacrefice the Canon but depending where you would deploy send his block to grind you away. From my experience with WoC he played a strange game that provided you with an advantage you shouldn't have had.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#662 Post by Curu Olannon »

To be honest I've never played against anyone fielding 40 Marauders 8x5 before but I don't see it as being that effective - I can pound him at range and use Eagles to pick fights. Is there any battle reports where WoC has used such a strategy against a flying monster effectively? I'd like to see how it plays.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#663 Post by Elf_And_Safety »

Turn one when he targeted your dragon, it appears to me that had he targeted your eagle next to the dragon, Searith would have been too isolated to charge the hellcannon. It was either advance with the warriors or kill the eagle, and in the end he did neither.

Well played though Curu, you showed him the perils of just setting up for a big rush forward!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#664 Post by Ptolemy »

Hey Curu,

I've been lurking your Dragon Prince reports for awhile now to see how it works. I miss fielding the big lizard from time to time (I would love to have back the speed of attack approach).

A couple of points:

1) You played great, obviously. You shut down every attempt he made to get his army in gear. I agree that his deployment was lacking and fairly predictable. Then again, though, I find WoC has really very little unpredictability. Everything more or less works out as expected.

2) The Chosen failing to get the Ward save was obviously huge. Considering their odds are ~50% ish, what would you have done differently if he started the game with the craziness? The were deployed in a way as to really dominate the middle of the field by late game. The only out I see for you is a sacrifice of both great eagles and the archers or dragon princes.

That aside, pouncing on them with the lions (pun intended) was a perfect showing of the calculated aggression HE generals have to have.

3) Usually, WoC is not much of a threat to the Dragon, but with Gateway lurking about, he certainly did his best to bring you down. When Saerith charged the Marauders, did he choose not to challenge? If so, why not? I wouldn't have let you kill more than 1 model that first turn of combat just to help ensure that his BSB would have had a chance to charge you and the Shrine would have had an opportunity to buff the marauders.

This is, by the way, the greatest weakness I see with the Dragon Prince currently. I don't worry about the guns so much. I worry that when I send him into combat, some lousy champion challenges and my Prince puts 2 wounds on him and kills him. Under 8th rules, the dragon cannot attack. I now have a measly combat resolution of 3 (2 wounds and charge) against could be up to a static CR of 4. How do you deal with this? Even if the dragon holds, I see a potential flank charge as a huge risk.

Awesome report, keep the dragon alive and running!
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#665 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Elf_And_Safety - that would've been a possibility. However, targeting the Eagle with Gateway would've been a huge waste. Targeting it with Hellcannon, likewise given how much Faeria was hurt. Had he done so, I would've simply charged the Hellcannon directly instead. Another option would've been to simply keep out from the fight had it been too hard and waited for a better opportunity.

@Ptolemy - good to know you're following and thanks for the compliments ;) As for his deployment, short of 5-widing the Marauders as Giladis suggested I don't really know how he could've countered this. I could refuse the other flank as well, so he had a pretty tough decision to make. The added fact that I got the tower was really nice though, having Olannon in that position with the Archers allowed me to really punish his weak Marauders. As for the Chosen - I would've had to charge them either way as there was nothing else I had nearby (save for the DP) who would've been able to do this. If they had gotten their ward-save though I would've directed towards Naenor's B2B models (The Other Trickster's Shard). The Treason really hurt me, with 30 I don't think a 4+ ward would've been an issue either.

His Marauders did indeed have a champion! I believe he simply forgot to challenge, this is however a rather big mistake on his part. Do note that if my DP hadn't failed their charge (8+ on Swiftstride has a 68% chance of succeeding) they would've added a lot of punch to the fight as well as being able to take this challenge. As you've seen in my earlier battle reports, I usually tag-team Naenor for this sole reason - keep that annoying champion away from my killing power! I have yet to face the champion-challenge as a big problem. If I only lose by 1 it shouldn't be a problem with LD10. In general, I believe this is mostly an issue if you're up against tarpitters, which your Dragon shouldn't be anyway. As for flank charges, I did face this in my first game against Daemons. This was however mostly due to a mistake on my part. With 3 Eagles and 2 flying characters combat tends to happen on my terms. Which armies do you think can pose a threat to me in this way and how?

The ideal place for a Dragon is in a combat which lasts for 2 phases, thus keeping it safe while the enemy magics/shoots and giving you lots of charge opportunities when that combat's over. As you see in my battle reports, I try to make these combats happen by adjusting the strength of the attack (e.g. going with/without Naenor, using/not using breath weapon etc).
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#666 Post by Trains_Get_Robbed »

Curu Olannon wrote:To be honest I've never played against anyone fielding 40 Marauders 8x5 before but I don't see it as being that effective - I can pound him at range and use Eagles to pick fights. Is there any battle reports where WoC has used such a strategy against a flying monster effectively? I'd like to see how it plays.
I don't know if he intentionally did this, but he actually has logic in doing so. Mostly H.E units are deployed 7 wide correct? Well deploying 8x5 gives him the onus of maximizing his attacks on your elves. However, after seeing your deployment, and the inevitability of a dragon closing in on him, I'm surprised he didn't reform.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#667 Post by dabber »

Real quick ... what did the Chosen get to start the game?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#668 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Curu,

Another great game! Glad to see some more action coming from the Star Dragon end of Ulthuan.

Some very harrowing moments in this matchup, that's for sure! As always, a few thoughts for you:

1. Let's start with deployment. That rock in the middle was a godsend for you. Due to his wide frontage, it effectively forced him to split his forces in half. Having said that, I think committing his first block to a far flank was a game changing mistake. If it were me, I would have placed M1 first, allowing me to see more of your drops before I commit to a side. As it played out, comitting big blocks to the flank early basically allowed you to deploy in a fashion that eliminated about 30-40% of his army from the fight. There seems to be a huge amount of unused space in the Eastern flank, which ended up being the important one. Hats off to you, in my opinion your well executed deployment phase played an enormous part in this victory.

2. Your opponent had Dragon Fever. His first turn was enormously dictated by that dragon. Let's take a look at the effect your one model had:
- The Chaos Warriors delayed their advance to counter the Dragon's Charge
- Warhounds 2 & 3 barely move
- His Disc Lord scatters and heads for the hills, forcing his Eastern flank to play protective duty, including comitting the Warshrine to heading off the offending Dragon Princes rather than supporting the Chosen
- The Eastern Marauders didn't advance at all, presumably to avoid combat with the Dragon
- His sorceror lord put gateway on the dragon, hoping for the 12% chance of removing it
- His hellcannon put his template shot on the tough to hit dragon rather than the prime target - the White Lion horde
All this effect and all your Dragon had to do was show up and say "Rah!". Amazing! There is no doubt in my mind that if the deployment hadn't already sealed the deal, this first turn certainly did.

3. Due to Dragon fever, he ignored the most critical part of your army versus a list like his: The Eagles. The eagles represent your control over the movement phase. I've never seen so many good, effective redirects in my life! Your eagles stalled, annoyed and fluttered around his army while you eliminated one component at a time.

Your playing, Curu, is exactly how you described it - you have an excellent handle on the movement phase, and this payed dividends in this battle. You had some hard knocks, and came through in spades. Well played, and a well deserved victory.

To your opponent: Versus a Dragon list, hesitation kills. The game starts during deployment, with thought needing to be given to possible approaches for the dragon. Your Hordes of Marauders are the very last place he wants to be - it takes forever to kill them and break steadfast, and they pose a significant threat with the multiple high Strength attacks. Don't be afraid to reform into ranks either, to get an extra round or two of tying up the Dragon.

Park your Disk Sorceror 1" behind one of these blocks, and for all intents and purposes he's Dragon immune. The Dragon doesn't want to get bogged down in combat with a horde off the bat, so this forces the Dragon to fly circles around you to get a charge angle, as opposed to the other way around, effectively controlling his movement.

Finally, with so many infantry units, kill those eagles! Without them, you'll have the opportunity to bring your numbers to bear, and force him into a war of attrition. This is exactly where High Elves don't want to be, particularly versus cheap, hard hitting Marauders.

Once again, thank you for the report Curu! I'll be interested to see what your next matches bring.

D

Edit: I typed this up before the conversation above regarding the eagle. As I'm sure you can tell, I disagree that taking out the eagles would have been a huge waste ;)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#669 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Trains_Get_Robbed - I don't think frontage ever mattered here. I deploy my units 15 wide (30 archers) and 10 wide (WL's). Swordmasters are usually 7 wide.

@dabber - +1A, giving them each 4A or something since they were Khorne.

@Brewmaster_D - deployment was indeed huge and I'm positive he'll appreciate your feedback :) As for Dragon Fever, people tend to have this and it's one of the reasons I believe this can be so effective. As for focusing on the Eagle, this means leaving the Dragon alone. By gatewaying it he brought it down pretty hard very early, denying me quite a few potential moves throughout the game. I don't know though, the Eagles are incredibly versatile but Warriors tend to not have an abundance of chaff clearers in my opinion.

Back to the former point of formation - I would really like to hear the rationale behind deploying the Marauders anything but 10-wide.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#670 Post by Trains_Get_Robbed »

Ah, then I'm at a loss for why they were 10 wide, let alone on the far left flank. Anything that is M4 or lower shouldn't be deployed in either side of the 6in' board edges as a rule of thumb.

I'm still impressed in how you managed not to have your units magic'd away. I guess it goes to show that even a Lvl2 H.E is enough to handle some armies -our quality is eliteness, and it is shown none better in this example :mrgreen:.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#671 Post by dabber »

Brilliant game Curu Olannon. Very well played.

Not sure I agree with you about Curse of Arrow Attraction vs Shield. Shield on the White Lions or Dragon seems very useful every turn, including close combat. Even with your 54 archers, Curse is only worth about 6 dead Marauders on average.
Additional comment later: Part of why I think Shield works with your army is there is really only one target for it - the White Lions. You could cast it on the dragon, but mostly it goes on the White Lions. And you enemy does not want your one huge combat unit to have a 5+ ward.


I cannot comprehend why his first serious drop was Marauders on the west side. Why not put some infantry unit (any) in the central woods? And how did the poor Hellcannon end up in the middle east-west, instead of in a corner? AND not on the north table edge?

Treason only has a 24" range. Are you sure he was in range to cast it turn 1? Why move the White Lions up turn 1, when you might draw him into charge range of one of your fliers by staying back? Were you consciously trying to get the chosen quickly?

I like using the dogs to try and protect the Hellcannon, but once the Dragon actually declares the charge, I think their best move is to flee. As you realized, overrunning into another combat is the best possible position for your Dragon.

I don't understand why the wizard flew into the corner. Why not hang out next to the eastern Marauders, using them to block the dragon charge (no place to land)?


The weakness of WoC Tzeentch magic is that two of the spells are useless - Baleful and Call to Glory. Usually the Sorceror Lord only has 3 good spells, and has to use Third Eye to borrow your spells oncer stuff is in combat.

You mention his core infantry take about 30" of deployment frontage, minimum. But the table is 72" wide, so they can use up less than half the table width. Except here they took up the entire deployment frontage.
Last edited by dabber on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#672 Post by Ptolemy »

Gotta agree with Dabber on Shield. Curse is an attractive spell with your shooting, however, protecting those Lions from things like Gateway and Treason is huge as well.

I think Curu had to move the WLs aggressively. Those Chosen had to die and pronto. His efforts to get rid of the Terror banner right off was his way of trying to nab huge points by taking out the deathstar before it went super sayan.

@ Curu - 15 Chosen is a pretty small number these days. 20-30 is far more common. Your opponent also doesn't mark them with Tzeentch, which I can't understand for the life of me. WS 6, 4+ armor, 3+ Ward and stubborn is effectively impossible to beat. 30 White Lions might have overwhelmed his unit, but not easily. I believe Chosen are initiative six, which means you don't get rerolls to hit. You are now facing the prospect of only 15 of your 30 attacks hitting, of which roughly 12-13 wound have wounded. Of these, his 4+ ward would have saved 6-7. If he put a few more bodies in there and marked them Tzeentch, he only loses about 3 or 4. In return, his unit ( which should have been 8 wide at least) would have 25 attacks, of which ~17 would have hit and 14 would have wounded. A second round of this and your unit is gone. Brutal.

As for armies with big time flanking threats, the obvious ones come to mind. Cold One Knights, anything punchy with random movement (Abomb, Doomwheel, Manglers) and ALL ogres. Ogres just have too many attacks and your inability to Thunderstomp his entire army cuts down on dragon killiness.

Brewmaster couldn't be more right about your opponent losing because of his fear of the Dragon. It really irrational. He had units that posed a major threat to the dragon and had to tools to deal with it if he approached the battle with some thoughtfulness. The Eagles ruined him, but that is true in general. All HE battle plans rely on Eagles. Opponents who are good know this and shoot them dead as quickly as possible. I still can't believe when people I play all the time let me eagles go free.

Against the Dragon, there isn't any reason to deploy the Marauders differently than 10 wide. 10 wide still gets you horde attacks. The dragon has no ranks, so 40 models in 4 ranks is just as good as 40 models in 8 ranks for steadfast.
His Hellcannon AND his sorcerer should have targeted the White Lions. Going for the dragon was an all or nothing scenario that, predictably, didn't pay off. Even with all the damage he did to the dragon with Gateway, he STILL failed to bring it down by the end of the game. He was counting on too much going right. This is precisely why I would have gone with Saphery. It is difficult for an enemy to prioritize it if you cast it first on 2 dice. He's setting himself up for more dangerous spells if he does.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#673 Post by HERO »

I was really impressed by how much a single wizard without any support can accomplish using the old lores. Tzeentch magic in particular is incredibly devastating for its cast value. Basically, almost any Winds roll is useful as you can safely 2D6 away stuff like Treason due to +5 to cast.
YES! When taking older lores, there's only a few spells you want to chuck out and they all work because of the low casting values. I'm very surprised he was able to inflict so much damage early with his magic phase. I was fearing for that Dragon! Even though I feel the SD is overpriced right now, I'm still excited to give it a try in the next couple of weeks. My biggest problem are those Terrorgheists and the effect they have on my Star Dragon.

My army list is very similar to yours, I think you've seen it before :) Overall, I think the SD can do well in a meta unprepared for it. He does insane amounts of damage and has great challenge potential, especially against Chaos champions.

Good BR, I enjoyed it. I can't believe it takes that long to make a BR.. I've always wanted to make it that graphic but it just takes me forever :(
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#674 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I loved the reaction, you show him your sweet dragon, he goes... wait what? WTF am I supposed to do with that?
You are quicker at doing these report up than I, it took for like 4hrs to do my last one up, pretty sure most of that was me trying to read my notes ^_^'
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#675 Post by Curu Olannon »

@Trains_Get_Robbed - with the annulian crystal you really can manage to get by in a decent way (defensively) with only a level 2 I believe. After all, though Tzeentch magic is powerful, they lack the means to generate enough PD to really make it devastating.

@dabber - Curse vs Shield was something I contemplated for quite some time. In the end, I think the difference is marginal due to the circumstantial nature. However, the defensive nature of Shield means it's hard to prioritize against for an opponent and it also makes it a bit better as far as universally applicable spells are concerned (i.e. it's more flexible). I think that with this particular selection, next time I'll go for Shield instead. As for Treason on Turn 1 - he was definitely in range. I moved up to grant my Archers LoS (not that it did me any good anyways) but also to get to the Chosen ASAP - if I could reach them relatively intact before the 4+ ward hit them I would stand a good chance of taking them out without too much casualties. Also, I wanted to overwhelm that flank early on to avoid having multiple fronts fighting simultaneously, which would've been disastrous for me. His infantry's frontage indeed doesn't dictate that he use the entire board, but it's very unwieldy compared to many other armies. Add to this the fact that they're M4 and you have a tough job getting this all to where you want it ;)

@Ptolemy - See point above for Shield. You're right on the money with regards to the Chosen and Vaulsing the banner - those were my thoughts exactly! As for unit size and tzeentch mark - the Chosen are capped at around 15 in the league and the ward save is capped at 4+. Also, Chosen are I5, not I6 so you do get re-rolls. Had they gotten the ward, I would've had to rely on the Other Trickster's Shard to help me out but it would, of course, have been a way harder fight.

@Tiralya - I spent a lot more time doing my first couple of reports as well. Now it's kind of a routine so it's a lot quicker :) I agree with your 'Dragon Fever' description of "wait what? WTF..." - it totally captures the moment :D

Flanking threats - if you engage an infantry block where a cavalry unit (e.g. Cold One Knights) can flank you, you're doing something terribly, terribly wrong. Between all the chaff available and the dual characters this situation should never occur. Random movement stuff - Abomb doesn't concern me too much, Doomwheel needs to be taken care of before you commit the Dragon, Manglers are handled by Archers. Ogres however are a problem because their Ironblasters dictate so much of your movement - forcing you into combat. When you ran a Dragon list did you encounter these kind of problems?

@HERO - Terrorgheists are weak to all these Archers. It's a huge thing (base-wise) and has a very short-ranged attack. I don't think I've seen your Star Dragon list, at least I can't remember at the moment. Do you have a link?

I wanna thank you all for the Chaos feedback in addition to High Elf feedback. I'm sure my opponent will take some valuable lessons from this game + report and I have a feeling he'll pitch in here at some point ;)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#676 Post by FriendlyFanatic »

Very nicely played Curu, I especially enjoyed that you caught his lvl 4.

That guy has been a thorn in my side for 2 years no matter what army I play. Treason really is the worst as it will wreck white lions more than any of the BRB's uber kill spells.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#677 Post by dabber »

Curu, if the Chosen got +1 Attack before the game, what did the Warshrine give them during the game? They should have gotten 3 rolls, and you only mention one of them. Their pre-game odds of a 12 are 30% (I think), and the only other possible outcomes are 4 (which becomes 3 for +1 Toughness) or 5 (which I would move to 6 for +1 armour and better warshrine odds). If the pre-game roll nets a 5 (+1 Attack, which I disagree about keeping), the odds of his turn 1 and 2 roll being 12 are reduced to 3/17 or 17% (raw rolls of 2, 3, 7, 8 vs 11, 12). Unless he rolled an 8 on BOTH turn 1 and 2 (or rolled a 2), he should have gotten something useful from the warshrine - either Toughness, armour, or 4+ ward.
To prevent him getting the 4+ ward, you are better off taking out the Favor first, not the Terror banner. Favor but no Terror means 11 and 12 are 4+ ward, and 4,5,6,9,10 are re-rolled. So 4+ ward odds are 3/13. With Terror Banner but no Favor, 12 is 4+ ward and 5, 10, 11 are re-rolled, so 4+ ward odds are 1/27.

Part of why I think Shield works with your army is there is really only one target for it - the White Lions. You could cast it on the dragon, but mostly it goes on the White Lions. And you enemy does not want your one HUGE combat unit to have a 5+ ward.


What did you learn about the WoC vs VC game? How was the weak looking VC list able to defeat the strong looking WoC list?
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#678 Post by Curu Olannon »

@FriendlyFanatic - Thanks! Indeed he is very hard to catch! With his corner move though I was able to seal the box ;)

@dabber - In total, he got +1A, +1LD and +1AS throughout the game. I do believe the +1LD was the most recent buff. To be honest I'm not 100% sure of how this thing works, what with all the re-rolling etc, I just trust my opponent's to play it correctly. As for Favour vs Terror - good point. I was fearing for my Eagle fleeing his charge, which would've enabled them to redirect into the Dragon Princes. I did have Naenor nearby though so it would've been an LD8 re-rollable. You're probably right though, taking away Favour would be better. WoC vs VC pretty much came down to the flexibility of Vanhels, coupled with some poor rolls (e.g. his BSB failing to do anything vs the Vampire Lord's unit). Basically Vanhels-spam ensured his Knights could go past him, getting at his rear. The Terrorgheist and Ghouls held a strong center which he didn't manage to do anything about. As the pincer closed, there was nothing left to do but remove models ;)
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#679 Post by Baeronvonbleat »

Some suggestions for the WoC:

1 - Improve on your chaffe placement - We, as high elves, are incredibly adept at landing our eagles anywhere, pivoting, and making the nice charge direction (And over-run direction) leading your units into trouble. But you can do this too! (with some difficulty.) For instance, the warhounds in front of the hell cannon were alright, but if they had been angled so that the over-run went into the Warriors, things would have been much more difficult for the dragon (champ takes the challenge, static resolution trounces the dragon and you win the fight). Also, as has been said, the chaffe was all over the place. As chaffe is terribly important to ensure the fights you get into are the fights you want to get into, consider placing the hounds later in your deployment. That way they can be matched up against specific targets, and you can ensure they'll be in the right place. High elves don't have to worry about our eagles being in the right place (20 inch march and all), but this may help you better control the movement phase.

Other chaffe questions - Turn 2, the Warhound 2 unit, why didn't it move? It wasn't blocking Saerith from charging the warriors, and that would have been a fairly easy combat regardless (champion challenge, static resolution wins the day).

2 - Flanks are bad for Deathstars! - Deathstars are best placed 12 inches in from the boards edge. This allows them a greater threat radius, as well as having the best support from the rest of your units. This helps you clear chaffe from them, and put pressure on more of the board. A deathstar near a board edge can be easily kept near the board edge (and in this case, isolated near the board edge).

3 - Keep moving! - High elves really need to be pressured. Keeping the marauders in the middle really prevented you from threatening the high elf forces. Turn 2, the central marauders stayed put. If they had moved up, they would have helped threaten the eastern flank, and helped keep the chosen alive. Marauders are a great answer to white lions in this case. Superior number of attacks and huge number of models are really optimal in this situation.

Other potential options that you could have done: BSB to Prince - After Saerith (who, with his dragon, was horribly wounded) over-ran into the cannon, you could have flanked charged him with the BSB. Your BSB had a fairly solid defense (1+AS, 4+ ward) and would have survived the attacks from Saerith (4+/4+). Even if Saerith popped Loec (now on 1 wound), this would have given your cannon the chance to strike. Kill dragon or kill Saerith, either way you're facing a greatly diminished target. If Saerith challenged with Loec, you'd be facing an average of 1.6 wounds. If he didn't, you'd only risk .625 wounds from Saerith! At which point, his lord now only has 1 wound left. His turn he wins against the cannon, and he's completely open to gateway destruction! With Saerith removed, there's no central threat, and you just mop up with the rest of your forces (your wizard now also has a greater movement range).

Also, your wizard even on a disk can join units (such as the marauders). This would probably have been useful turn 2, to keep your wizard in threat range of lions, and still have options where to cast.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#680 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thanks for some more WoC input :)

Regarding your last points - the Eagle was positioned so it blocked his BSB. Had his BSB been able to charge, I would've challenged him out, popping Loec, meaning the cannon never would've hit me back. Also, killing Saerith doesn't mean the threat is removed as Faeria is still very capable of causing damage :) Regardless, I didn't like this scenario so I made sure the Eagle blocked the BSB (being on a juggernaught's base and all it wasn't too hard).

I must admit I didn't think about his Lord joining the Marauders. This might've caused me some trouble, though to be fair the Lions normally don't panic here (1 out of 9 times I believe, roughly speaking) so my next turn would likely see the Dragon + Lion hitting the Marauders. Good point though, I must remember this for Naenor!
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#681 Post by HERO »

@Curu
2500

LORDS:
Prince (Star Dragon, GW, AoC, Vambraces) = 612

HEROES:
Noble (DP, BSB, GW, HoF, GP) = 190
Lv.1 (Annulian Crystal) = 140
Lore of Beasts

CORE:
32x Spears (FC, Lion Standard) = 338
30x Spears (FC) = 295

SPECIAL:
30x White Lions (FC, Eternal Flame) = 490
9x Dragon Princes (FC, AoL) = 335

RARE:
2x Great Eagles = 100
I was thinking of turning the 62 Spearmen I have into a giant army of LSG....
Archers, for some wild reason, have never been good to me. Probably a good reason why I stayed away from Wood Elves... :(
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#682 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Even less drops HERO? Sea Guard play pretty defencively, you are pretty aggressive with your spears, I'm not sure LSG are worth the extra points you'd be spending on them.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#683 Post by HERO »

Tiralya wrote:Even less drops HERO? Sea Guard play pretty defencively, you are pretty aggressive with your spears, I'm not sure LSG are worth the extra points you'd be spending on them.
This pretty much didn't change from what I used to run with Star Dragon lol...
2x 10x Archers
Star Dragon
Battle Banner BSB w/ 9x Dragon Princes
Small units of Sword Masters
Scroll caddy
4x RBT

I do it mainly for kicks these days, so I'm not really afraid of having less drops.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#684 Post by Curu Olannon »

Yeah I remember that power-build from 7th. One big advantage of your list is of course the reduced drops, giving a better chance of getting first turn. I doubt I would like it though, seeing as you lose so much control of the movement phase and chaff would hinder you all day long.

Yesterday I finished modelling the Dragon - the wings are now magnetized (it was a pain and took quite a few hours!) and I added some lead to the base to increase stability. I gotta say, it looks so much better with the wings! Unfortunately the best camera I have around at the moment is that of a tablet, which is far from sufficient to provide a decent photo with. I'll try and get hold of one soon though, in which case I'll post the results here ;)

The day after tomorrow (Sunday) I'm up for my first league game - Dark Elves. Some further analysis leaves me worried about nothing save for getting stuck and flanked by his Knights. Basically I think I'll play as I did the last time I was up against Dark Elves - have the Lions guard a flank, keep a solid archer centre, redirect whatever I need to and force favourable combats for my flyers. Since he's bringing the Cauldron I need to be a little cautious with Naenor in particular but this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#685 Post by HERO »

The day after tomorrow (Sunday) I'm up for my first league game - Dark Elves. Some further analysis leaves me worried about nothing save for getting stuck and flanked by his Knights. Basically I think I'll play as I did the last time I was up against Dark Elves - have the Lions guard a flank, keep a solid archer centre, redirect whatever I need to and force favourable combats for my flyers. Since he's bringing the Cauldron I need to be a little cautious with Naenor in particular but this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
What kind of rules are in your league? Since I rank Star Dragon as a slightly weaker build than what DE can put out these days.... (especially worried about RXB hordes :()
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#686 Post by Dark Reaper »

I am the WoC player that Olannon played in the last game and I wanted to thank everybody for the excellent feedback provided here. I returned to the game last year after a 7 year hiatus and just recently started to play with this gaming group. It shows that I am still a bit rusty, but I firmly believe that my mistakes would not have been so apparent had I not met a player who managed to capitalize on them to the degree Olannon did in this game. It shows what a good player he really is.

First, my deployment is poor at best, the blocks are to far away from the main combats and are unable to support each other. This is to some degree due to me rarely placing units in area terrain (old 6th edition habit), which is something I should start to do. Unfortunately, such old habits often die hard. The Warhounds should have fled the charge from the dragon turn 2, which would have left the dragon out in the open or off the field on my turn 2.

Someone mentioned placing the warhounds later in my deployment, but I am not to sure whether or not this is a good idea. On the one hand, it makes me commit my important drops even earlier. On the other hand, I could probably refuse one of the flanks myself. It is however easy to point this out in hindsight, and hopefully I will be able to spot these things a little earlier during our next engagement. However, playing against an army as mobile as this one is no easy task. Sometimes you make mistakes in the movement phase and they are very difficult to come back from.

The real stars in this game were in my opinion the eagles. They are fantastic redirectors and one of them even held up my Sorcerer Lord for two combat phases due to me falling into his trap, tbh I didn't see that one coming. In addition to the dragon and the eagles, the White Lions are also a real pain for any WoC list. They kill pretty much any of our blocks. Half the unit killed my 15 chosen in one round of combat and at full strength they annihilate even hordes of marauders with ease, although perhaps not so cost efficient.

Anyway, I had a great game even though I lost and I think I picked up a few pointers for my next encounter with this army.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#687 Post by dabber »

@Dark Reaper
Thanks for checking out the discussion and commenting. More than most, this game really showed Olannon playing great. Certainly you made some mistakes, but rarely does a report show someone planning ahead, and planning correctly, as much as Olannon managed here.
I suggest checking out a WoC forum for some thoughts on the Chosen/Warshrine rolls. I think my mathematical babble is correct, and I think it points to better ways to manage the Favor adjustments, but you should check with those that play WoC more.

@HERO
If you go back a page or two in this blog, I made a post with a link to the league rules. I kept wanting to re-check them myself.
Last edited by dabber on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#688 Post by Curu Olannon »

@HERO - the rules are a couple of pages back, as well as every list I'm going to be playing against!

@Dark Reaper - Eagles indeed are a High Elf player's best friend. However, one of WoC's main weaknesses is their problem with clearing chaff. I don't see how one can easily overcome this. The default spell in the lore of Tzeentch might be worthwhile considering. Many High Elf players use the Ring of Fury (2D6 S4 hits, bound item) to mitigate the same problem - even though we frequently sport Archers! I'm not sure that I believe Gateway is an effective counter, though it really should kill that Eagle most of the time ;)

@dabber - thanks again for the kind words ;) I think that planning ahead is very important when you play super-mobile: you can't just spend 1000 points (all flyers) chasing down a main goal (e.g. Hellcannon / Sorceress bunker) and then don't know what to do when that inevitable counter-charge hits home. As you may have noticed, I tend to prefer having an Eagle and the Dragon fairly central, relative to the action on the table. This gives me a lot of flexibility and helps me dominate the flow of the game.

I got my 3 small dragons today! I was surprised about how small one of them was, as well as how big another was! I'm almost done assembling them (need a bit more greenstuff etc) but it'll be interesting to see how this entire force fits together now. I'm hoping it'll have a coherent, unique and thematic feel over it. I will do my best to get pictures up asap!

Tomorrow, the Dark Elf game is on. On one hand, I'm feeling rather confident about the matchup, given his list and my previous engagements with Dark Elves. However, I don't want to get cocky and arrogant and take things for granted. There are some real threats there, such as over-commiting the Dragon or getting tarpitted. I will stay focused and try to bring my A-game. As always, expect the report by tomorrow night ;)

Regards,
~Olannon
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#689 Post by Curu Olannon »

As most of you probably already know, tonight I had my first league game. My opponent was Dark Elves - the same player I played my very first DE game against. As was discussed previously on this blog, his army didn't pose any big threats to me in particular. The matchup is one I consider favourable to me. Suffice is to say that the game wasn't as straight-forward as I thought and hoped it would be...

:: Run For the Hills ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2497

Dark Elves:

Supreme Sorceress (Dark Magic) - lvl 4, +1PD, opal amulet
Sorceress - lvl 2, dispel scroll (Fire Magic)
Hero on Dark Pegasus - Dawnstone, +1AS / -S on shooting

30 Corsairs, Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard
20 RxB - shields
19 Spearelves, full command
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

6 Witch Elves
8 Cold One Knights - Full Command, ASF Banner, Whip of Agony on champ
1 Cold One Chariot

20 Black Guard - Full Command

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment ::
Magic was 1, 6 for me, which I was pretty happy about. He got 3,4,5,6 from Dark and 0,1 from Fire. Deployment was fairly good - I got the Horde against Black Guard, meaning I wouldn't have to dedicate anything to them. The Lions were placed centrally as an anchor and protector and my flyers had lots of good targets. His chariot was also fooled by the refused flank. Overall, I was quite happy:

Image

Rolling for first turn, I got a '4'. With my +2, he couldn't roll a '6' and so I got first turn!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Flyers move up centrally to get some good targets for the next turn. Depending on his moves, I would engage either a solid block straight away or go for the more simple elements. Lions moved up to take the centre, with the small Archers marching to provide a bunker.

Magic started off really big - 12 v 7. I got all my 3 spells through, meaning the Dragon had a 5+ ward, the Cold One Knights lost their ASF banner and his casting values would be +3 next turn! Shooting killed 4 Black Guard and that was it! A pretty good start, in my opinion.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 1 ::

His Chariot fails its stupidity test and stumbles a couple of inches forward. Cauldron gives his Cold One Knights a 5+ ward. The rest move up cautiously, his Supreme Sorceress hiding 1" behind her bunker.

Magic is 5v3 after he channels twice (!). Word of Pain is the first spell to be cast, but he fails to meet its value due to Drain Magic! Fireball on Lions is dispelled with the remaining 3v3 dice. Shooting sees him roll miserably and do nothing. I'm confident about my position as we enter the second turn.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I was contemplating engaging his Warriors with both flyers to overrun into the Supreme Sorceress. This would however have been a rather risky move. I decided to charge the Cauldron of Blood with Saerith (17" away) and the Witch Elves with Naenor (15" away). Saerith makes his roll, but triple-2's for Naenor sees him standing awkwardly in the middle. The idea was for these flyers to clear out support elements in 2 rounds of combat and then be ready to combo-charge from the rear. Clearly, this was not to be. My Dragon Princes escape the Black Guard / Chariot threat by marching through the woods - I pass all my tests. I move an Eagle to cover his Corsairs.

Magic is 5v3 and I throw it all at Vaul's on his flying hero (remember, we have open lists) and I remove his Dawnstone. I do IF however, and lose 1 level (phew!). Shooting doesn't do too much this turn.

In combat we each get 2 wounds through, poison piercing Faeria's hide. Due to charge - BSB respectively, it's a tie.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 2 ::

His Warriors receive Killing Blow as they charge Naenor. Corsairs charge blocking Eagle. Black Guard keep on moving towards my Horde. Hero moves to harass my centre. He places his Harpies in front of my Dragon Princes (brilliant move!), lining up the chariot to cover every possible angle.

This time, it's his turn to get big magic as it's 11 v 7. The result sees Black Horror kill 7 White Lions, while an amazing roll for Bladewind kills another 8(!). The unit is now down to half strength. Combat sees Saerith and Faeria kill off the Cauldron. Meanwhile, Naenor issues a challenge but he doesn't fall for it. He scores 5 hits but gets no Killing Blows! Phew! The blocking Eagle survives the Corsairs and holds!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith charges his Supreme Sorceress. The Lions flank his Warriors, hoping to wipe out enough to save Naenor. Dragon Princes move 4" backwards to get the chariot in their front. My Eagle charges the Archers screening my Archers. By having to form them up, he loses his cover for the Black Guard.

Magic is 4v2 and I get Drain through. Shooting kills another handful of Black Guard and I'm now confident that my Horde can take care of them (the other Archers tried to wound his hero but I couldn't get past his 1+ save).

Now, combat is resolved but we both forget the Eagle combat. Somehow I thought we had already done it, and as such wasn't afraid of the Corsairs. My reform with Saerith thus sees him face the RxB (I didn't even take care to ensure he could charge the Knights if they moved) which is a horrible move. As we resolve the Eagle combat last, he reforms to face my Lions and I know I'm in big, big trouble. Speaking of the Lions - they performed admirably against the Warriors. However, he did have 3 attacks left vs Naenor, of which 1 hit. That one hit came up a '6' as well, killing the noble elf outright. The Lions caught the breaking Warriors and overran into the flying hero as well. The Harpies lose combat to my Eagle but I can't catch them.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 3 ::

His Corsairs flank the Lions. Black Guard charge Eagle, which flees, and then catch the Archers who Stand and Shoot (after this, they're 8 remaining BG against my 30 Archers). The Chariot charges my Dragon Princes.

Magic is 8v8 and he gets an IF Fireball on Saerith! Lots of hits sees the Dragon wounded once and Saerith once. The Dragon fails its armour save, and then its ward save. Sigh. Saerith then fails BOTH his 3+ armour saves AND the 2+ ward save. Are you kidding me?? His shooting scores another wound on Saerith (I cannot pass these saves for some reason) and the couple are now down to 1W and 3W.

Combat sees the Archers kill 2 Black Guard for 5 in return. I hold on Steadfast. I fail to hurt his flying hero with the Lions (2 hits, snake eyes...) and I kill a couple of corsairs for a few in return. I hold due to Stubborn. Dragon Princes lose 4 and get no kills in return but I barely pass my break test (thank you very much, LD9!) with the Drakemaster!

This was not a good turn for me, and the good position I had after his Turn 1 is now pretty much non-existant.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

I decide that Saerith needs to be able to help out the centre after calculating some potential VP scenarios etc. The fact that he would've gotten a stand and shoot, had a champion and the sorceress as well didn't exactly make me want to charge the RxB's. I fly him to the Cold One Knights' flank instead, blocking their approach with an Eagle. I move Olannon to the Archers again, intending to have a challenger available if needed.

Magic is 6v4 and he scrolls my 5+ ward on the Lions and dispels the Drain with 4v2 dice. Shooting sees the Breath weapon kill 1 Cold One Knight (he had 5 tests). The small Archers open up but fail to hit well enough due to the blocking Eagle. The 14 Archers on the hill do get 2 wounds after the hits though - and now he rolls snake eyes (5 Knights remaining)! What a game!

In combat, I challenge with the Guardian (I had killed his Corsair champion with directed attacks the round before) since I cannot afford to have him kill off this unit and be free to move as early as his Turn 4! True to form, I score one hit which comes up a '1' for to wound. In return, the Guardian is killed, however 6 Lions remain and they pass their stubborn LD10 break test. The Archers reduce the Black Guard to 2 models and they're 22 left themselves after the Black Guard hit back. He passes his stubborn LD9 test.

Now, I finally caught a break as the Drakemaster wounds the Chariot and he fails to wound in return - fails his break test and is run down! At this point, we had a few spectators and the cries of 'oooooh' and 'lucker!' were heard around the table. I can't deny that this was very lucky as the Drakemaster stands a very, VERY little chance of achieving this.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 4 ::

Knights charge Eagle. The rest shuffle.

Magic is 8v7 and I dispel Fireball.

His shooting can't hit Faeria well enough to hurt her.

Combat sees the Knights kill the Eagle and reform to face Saerith. My 4 White Lions in contact with his flying hero realize how desperate the situation is and score no less than 4 hits, all of which wound! He fails to pass enough tests and dies! The Archers finish his Black Guard.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Saerith and the small Archers with Olannon charge his Knights.

Magic sees him dispel shield.

Shooting sees me target his Harpies but I can't kill them off and they pass their panic test.

After combat is over, a single Lion remains and I catch another break as he passes his LD10 stubborn test! I roll poorly in the combat against the Knights though, Faeria is down to 1W and he has 3 remaining. He passes his break test.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 5 ::

The Witch Elves counter-charge my Archers. Olannon dies, but Saerith and Faeria kill the last Knights (finally!). Magic is non-existant, as is shooting. Archers hold on steadfast.

The last Lion finally goes down.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

I realize that my best way to win the game is to preserve status quo. Saerith and the Drakemaster (ironically enough, the old Saerith model!) both run for the hills to preserve over 800 victory points. My Horde Archers move back as far as they can (I don't dare trying to free reform, fearing I won't even get those 3 inches. In hindsight, I probably should've tried this as they have the Gleaming Pennant). They're now 13" away from the Corsairs.

The other Archers have 3 left after his Witches are done and they are run down. The Witch Elves end up 11" away from the Horde.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 6 ::

Both infantry units declare charges on the Horde, I stand and shoot the Corsairs (the Witch Elves had my flank). The corsairs are 13 remaining as they reach me, frenzy saving them from taking a panic test (yes, he made his 8+ roll ;) ).

Magic sees him launch another Fireball on Faeria (level 3). However, he fails to do any wounds this time, as I've learned how to pass 2+ saves! His shooting is out of range, Saerith's escape keeping him some 28" away after the RxB's moved.

Combat sees me kill 2 Witch Elves and 4 Corsairs before he retaliates and kills 13 Archers. I fail my break test and am run down.

:: Victory Points ::

What a game! Saerith and Faeria down to 1W each and his infantry are in a sorry shape.

I was fairly sure that I would be ahead, regardless of the fate of the Archer horde. However, I knew it would be close. Counting up all bonuses etc I had scored 213 victory points more than him! This is luckily enough for a win!

:: Evaluation ::

First of all, my opponent improved a LOT since our last game. He's a great sport to play and we frequently comment on each-other's moves throughout the game. In this game, I'd like to highlight the hiding of his Sorceress and the trap for my Dragon Princes (which I handled very poorly - an excellent play on his part though!). Though some mistakes on his part were obvious (giving up the Lord Sorceress fairly early, moving the Black Guard straight ahead at my Horde of Archers), his overall play was relatively good I think. Note that he also kept his cool against the Dragon and managed to focus - something that hasn't really happened in my other matches.

Regardless, I played a poor game. Though some of you might feel I was very unlucky (and you may be right!), that is a part of the game. Where I failed spectacularly this game was in my risk management. I had no clear plan for what I would do IF the Dragon was hurt that badly so soon, nor what I would do if Naenor failed his charge (though, to be fair, making a 15" charge on Swiftstride fly has a 95% chance of success). This is scenario I haven't quite encountered before, so my decisions were far from optimal. Had I realized the threat of his Warriors with Killing Blow I would've blocked them with an Eagle, too.

So, you might ask - what would improved risk management do to help me here? Well, assuming I had known Saerith was going to take a beating, I would have to dedicate him to softer targets. My original plan was to tag-team to take out the combat blocks (Knights and Corsairs, respectively). Softer targets included the Warriors (which would've relieved the Lions), the RxB and the Witch Elves. The poor reform after I killed his Supreme Sorceress meant I had to sacrifice the small Archers + Olannon to ensure his Knights were killed. A costly, but in my opinion necessary, sacrifice.

2 other mistakes I'd like to point out is how poorly I played the Dragon Princes (no need to advance, should just wait for his Chariot) and my greediness with the Archer Horde in my Turn 5 - had I backed off here as well (stayed still to pump out shots at harpies) I would've avoided the Corsairs and had the Witch Elves in my front.

I'm sure you have a lot of comments as well! I'm eager to hear them and I'm especially eager to hear what you think of this battle. It was supposed to be way easier than it turned out to be - indeed many small things could've totally changed the outcome (the Drakemaster performing admirably springing to mind).

Regards,
~Olannon
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
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Re: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500pts Army Blog

#690 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

You underestimated him, something that won't happen again. He clearly had some practice over the holidays. Losing the BSB turn three ouch, and that WE charge turn five looks long, did you think they'd get you?
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
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